What If Toriyama Tried To Make DBZ Deep?

[ABED]

What characters do you consider 5 dimensional, other than Mister Mxyzptlk?

How is Vegeta not a multi-dimensional character?

[Kid Buu]

Cell's goal was to become the strongest and prove it in a fight. I don't see how this is any different from Super Buu.

[garnetjester]

I still can't believe My Little Pony keeps getting brought up in this conversation, and I say that as a diehard Fluttershy fangirl. In any case, I don't really see anything wrong with Cell as a villain, although my favorite one is Freeza, he was badass, heartless and actually seemed to have a proper goal with his planet kidnapping industry thing.

Cell, however, was just a jerk who wanted to prove he was better than everyone else. I think Dr. Gero put too many of Vegeta's cells in that embryo and it turned out that way. But I like that about Cell, he just didn't care about power or anything else, he just wanted to prove his worth.

[Cipher]

What characters do you consider 5 dimensional, other than Mister Mxyzptlk?

Gsptlsnz and Bat-Mite?

[FortuneSSJ]

The word deep and dbz dont combine. Lord Toriyama is better than that.

[TheAldella]

The word deep and dbz dont combine. Lord Toriyama is better than that.

Well, in all honesty, that's unfair to say. Yu Yu Hakusho had deep characters, developments, and relationships. Bleach tries to, and that has its own fans. One Piece has um...really deep stories. I don't know about characters. I haven't seen enough to judge that, still being pre-time skip and all.

Dragon Ball, though. The only thing truly deep for it, is the power scaling and ass pulling XDD

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku and Gohan were maintaining a constant Super Saiyan state after their RoSaT training because it wasn't yet complete. They left the room early. However, Vegeta and Trunks went in for a full year and so they had finished the training by the time they came out and didn't need to maintain the form any more. Nothing stupid about that.

Plus, they would look like they are copying them.

[ABED]

I still can't believe My Little Pony keeps getting brought up in this conversation, and I say that as a diehard Fluttershy fangirl. In any case, I don't really see anything wrong with Cell as a villain, although my favorite one is Freeza, he was badass, heartless and actually seemed to have a proper goal with his planet kidnapping industry thing.

Cell, however, was just a jerk who wanted to prove he was better than everyone else. I think Dr. Gero put too many of Vegeta's cells in that embryo and it turned out that way. But I like that about Cell, he just didn't care about power or anything else, he just wanted to prove his worth.

Define "proper goal".

Cell may not be crazy, but like the Joker, some men just want to watch the world burn.

[Nanotchi]

Alright so, the topic is "what if Toriyama TRIED".... Well, he'd fail at it o think. Deep stories aren't his thing. Sorry. His habit of making things up because he thought it was a cool way to do things works well for him. And that's the way it is.

I noticed ThatDBZGuy has been bringing up My little pony around a lot.. And well, so? I know several bronies, and none of them consider the show to be deep. I know you mentioned fan fictions, but lets talk about what assembled the fan base it has, the show. The show, from what I've watched, isn't "deep" nor are its characters "complex". I see them as cartoon characters, pretty basic ones. Some are even just stereotypes. But millions love it. Thousands cosplay as the characters, thousands visit conventions, and thousands discuss on forums for a "silly kids cartoon that isn't deep." My Little Pony is just a cartoon, that a lot of staff had fun making things they think people will like. Is it meaningful? No, but its a entertaining show that people love.

DragonBall is like that. Toriyama didn't try to do anything, he just did whatever he thought people would like. Even if it has no meaningful story, or complex characters, DragonBall is loved by millions and millions. No matter how "terrible" it is. It was made to entertain only.

[FortuneSSJ]

The word deep and dbz dont combine. Lord Toriyama is better than that.

Well, in all honesty, that's unfair to say. Yu Yu Hakusho had deep characters, developments, and relationships. Bleach tries to, and that has its own fans. One Piece has um...really deep stories. I don't know about characters. I haven't seen enough to judge that, still being pre-time skip and all.

Dont get me wrong. I like deep shows. Gintama is the most deep out there and its my favourite...after Dragon Ball. HunterxHunter Chimera Ants arc gives me a lot of feels too.
What I meant is that Toriyama is talented enough to make his series addicting even though they can be "simple". its harder to be successful with a "simple" plot than a detailed one.

[thatdbzguy]

Dragon Ball, though. The only thing truly deep for it, is the power scaling and ass pulling XDD

At least someone here admits it.

DragonBall is like that. Toriyama didn't try to do anything, he just did whatever he thought people would like. Even if it has no meaningful story, or complex characters, DragonBall is loved by millions and millions. No matter how "terrible" it is. It was made to entertain only.

That just makes DBZ seem even more terrible. An author should never have to conform so much to what his/her target audience wants, this case being with prepubescent boys (because lord knows they know what makes quality stories).

Dragon Ball isn't even loved that much anymore, and most people who do like it only like it for nostalgia and the fighting. As DBZ fans grew older, they started to realize that DBZ was just a Micheal Bay anime/manga with piss-poor writing and insultingly simple characters and storylines.

For example, why do you think the mature "fans" hate the Cell saga? Because, unlike the kiddies, they realized that it's overall quality was about on-par with the Twilight series, which was a new low even for DBZ.

[Kid Buu]

The word deep and dbz dont combine. Lord Toriyama is better than that.

Well, in all honesty, that's unfair to say. Yu Yu Hakusho had deep characters, developments, and relationships. Bleach tries to, and that has its own fans. One Piece has um...really deep stories. I don't know about characters. I haven't seen enough to judge that, still being pre-time skip and all.

Dragon Ball, though. The only thing truly deep for it, is the power scaling and ass pulling XDD

I honestly don't see how YYH characters are deeper outside of Sensui. I mean, Hiei and Kurama went from antagonist to Yusuke's BFF's within a few chapters.

[TheAldella]

The word deep and dbz dont combine. Lord Toriyama is better than that.

Well, in all honesty, that's unfair to say. Yu Yu Hakusho had deep characters, developments, and relationships. Bleach tries to, and that has its own fans. One Piece has um...really deep stories. I don't know about characters. I haven't seen enough to judge that, still being pre-time skip and all.

Dragon Ball, though. The only thing truly deep for it, is the power scaling and ass pulling XDD

I honestly don't see how YYH characters are deeper outside of Sensui. I mean, Hiei and Kurama went from antagonist to Yusuke's BFF's within a few chapters.

Yusuke's deep in terms of development, and Genkai, I still don't understand, to this day.

[Nanotchi]

DragonBall is like that. Toriyama didn't try to do anything, he just did whatever he thought people would like. Even if it has no meaningful story, or complex characters, DragonBall is loved by millions and millions. No matter how "terrible" it is. It was made to entertain only.

That just makes DBZ seem even more terrible. An author should never have to conform so much to what his/her target audience wants, this case being with prepubescent boys (because lord knows they know what makes quality stories).

Dragon Ball isn't even loved that much anymore, and most people who do like it only like it for nostalgia and the fighting. As DBZ fans grew older, they started to realize that DBZ was just a Micheal Bay anime/manga with piss-poor writing and insultingly simple characters and storylines.

For example, why do you think the mature "fans" hate the Cell saga? Because, unlike the kiddies, they realized that it's overall quality was about on-par with the Twilight series, which was a new low even for DBZ.

Why exactly is it bad that he wanted to make a story that could entertain everyone? Just like My Little Pony actually, it was made for entertainment. He didn't mean to create a powerful thing, just something for people to love, and well, it stuck around. You mention the story being written for young boys. And well, isn't that what it's supposed to be? It was in shonen jump after all. And for what his target audience was, he was pretty good at making it appeal to all ages.

I assume you mean western countries with this. I do notice dragonball gets a lot of this hate and slack in the US, but couldn't you also blame the way it was advertised in the US by Funimation? Nothing to do with the actual story and writing by Toriyama himself. I could argue that because of Funimation's treatment of the story, these stereotypes exist. I can't speak for Japan, but I assume it retains a lot of popularity there, with both new and old fans. Plus, in Mexico, dragon ball is still huge, airing on tv regularly from what I heard.

Oh and also, why did you compare DragonBall with Twilight I wonder? That doesn't exactly fit in with comparing DragonBall. I suppose you just thought saying the writing is like Twilight because you hate it so much? :p Really odd compairson, you know. Just like the My Little Pony one I made, haha. (Oh and, I've seen all the Twilight movies. They are bad, but I don't assume you've watched them.)

[ABED]

Why does going from antagonist to protagonist in a few chapters imply lack of depth? Kurama doesn't change over the course of chapters, he changed over the course of years. His human mother had a big influence on him in changing him from a vicious thief to a caring human being.

What about Toguro? He and Sensui are similar in important ways.

Aldella, what didn't you get about Genkai?

For example, why do you think the mature "fans" hate the Cell saga? Because, unlike the kiddies, they realized that it's overall quality was about on-par with the Twilight series, which was a new low even for DBZ.

Again, a generalization that's not true. Plenty of mature fans enjoy the Cell arc, and no, Twilight isn't anywhere even close to the Cell arc. That's trash.

[TheGmGoken]

why do you think the mature "fans" hate the Cell saga?

Who are "mature" fans? Age wise? Personality wise? I'm curious. Cause honestly besides here I don't see Cell Arc hate(Or rather disagreement on how it played out)..

[garnetjester]

I'm 26 and I like Cell. Actually the Cell Games are my favorite part of Z in the manga. On the contrary, I tend to think that the older the fan, the more you realize that it has flaws but you either love it in spite of those flaws or you just move on to something else.

[thatdbzguy]

Again, a generalization that's not true. Plenty of mature fans enjoy the Cell arc, and no, Twilight isn't anywhere even close to the Cell arc. That's trash.

I wish I could agree with that, but like Twilight, the Cell saga does everything wrong and nothing right.

Who are "mature" fans? Age wise? Personality wise? I'm curious. Cause honestly besides here I don't see Cell Arc hate(Or rather disagreement on how it played out)..

Both age and personality wise.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I wish I could agree with that, but like Twilight, the Cell saga does everything wrong and nothing right.

Again, do we really have to down another franchise (any franchise) to continue dissing Dragon Ball as well? It just seems needlessly hateful. And you know what? Twilight must be doing something right, cuz...look at the money it's made. If something is a successful entertainment product, it must be doing something right (even if that something is pandering to the lowest common denominator, like pretty much every reality show). I couldn't give too you-know-whats for Spongebob, but it's lasted in popularity for over a decade - clearly it's doing something right even if it's not something for me.

And also again, this self-loathing schtick is getting really old.

[TheGmGoken]

Who are "mature" fans? Age wise? Personality wise? I'm curious. Cause honestly besides here I don't see Cell Arc hate(Or rather disagreement on how it played out)..

Both age and personality wise.

So..."Mature" fans hate Cell Arc eh?

I'm 26 and I like Cell. Actually the Cell Games are my favorite part of Z in the manga.