Unpopular DB opinions

[RandomGuy96]

I presume you're referring to him blowing up a planet on a whim out of sheer spite in the anime?

[ABED]

All of that is played for comedic effect. I doubt even Bulma would be like "Tell me you want to butcher my entire family, it turns me on".

I'm not saying it's excusable that she's screwing a mass murderer, but I don't think threats to murder her are a turn on even to her.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta does pretty damn brutal when he is more powerful

Example?

why are you taking his words as anything more than a threat?

Why assume that he is lying? Especially when this is reflected in the appearance of the Super Saiyans, and it is acknowledged in official guidebooks as a fact?

Vegeta at this point is starting to change. He clearly was nice enough to Bulma that she thought it acceptable to sleep with him. He's not pure evil. If he was still pure evil by this point, what changes by the end of the Cell arc?

What exactly changed Vegeta before learning that Trunks is his son? I don't see any change in Vegeta from Saiyan arc to the beginning of the Artificial Humans arc, he was still a dick that doesn't care about anyone but himself, he didn't mind to kill anyone innocent, and he was having an alliance with the good guys exclusively for his personal satisfaction, he just has a different goal this time (he wanted immortality to kill Freeza & fight for all eternity before, now he wants to kill Goku & fight other strong opponents). After learning about having a son, and after spending a year with him (even if he was avoiding him), that's when he started to change, when he developed secret feelings for his son. He didn't want to show his feelings for Trunks, but he couldn't hold himself when he saw him getting killed.

And why would Bulma avoid him? She liked him, he wasn't doing bad things at that point, and it was just a one-night-stand, not a relationship.

[DBZAOTA482]

All of that is played for comedic effect. I doubt even Bulma would be like "Tell me you want to butcher my entire family, it turns me on".

I'm not saying it's excusable that she's screwing a mass murderer, but I don't think threats to murder her are a turn on even to her.

Rule of funny hasn't stopped you in the past.

And I'm not sure I can agree with you. Names even turn her on for fuck's sake (this while she was dating Yamcha). Plus the worst he said to her is that she's vulgar (which she kinda is).

[ABED]

Vegeta does pretty damn brutal when he is more powerful

Example?

why are you taking his words as anything more than a threat?

Why assume that he is lying? Especially when this is reflected in the appearance of the Super Saiyans, and it is acknowledged in official guidebooks as a fact?

Vegeta at this point is starting to change. He clearly was nice enough to Bulma that she thought it acceptable to sleep with him. He's not pure evil. If he was still pure evil by this point, what changes by the end of the Cell arc?

What exactly changed Vegeta before learning that Trunks is his son? I don't see any change in Vegeta from Saiyan arc to the beginning of the Artificial Humans arc, he was still a dick that doesn't care about anyone but himself, he didn't mind to kill anyone innocent, and he was having an alliance with the good guys exclusively for his personal satisfaction, he just has a different goal this time (he wanted immortality to kill Freeza & fight for all eternity before, now he wants to kill Goku & fight other strong opponents). After learning about having a son, and after spending a year with him (even if he was avoiding him), that's when he started to change, when he developed secret feelings for his son. He didn't want to show his feelings for Trunks, but he couldn't hold himself when he saw him getting killed.

And why would Bulma avoid him? She liked him, he wasn't doing bad things at that point, and it was just a one-night-stand, not a relationship.

Forget about the guidebooks. He's probably not full out lying as much as exaggerating and trying to strike fear into his opponent. Can you get specific about when he said this.

Vegeta was a dick, but he had to have changed for him to stay on Earth and not kill anyone. I think being brutalized by Freeza got to him. Toriyama made a point of having him cry, which I recall was a first. Then he discovered that Goku, a lower class warrior, completely outclassed him and became a the Super Saiyan of legend. I think both of those things played a big part in his development. What good does spending a year with someone do if you don't spend time with them?

I do take issue with the idea that he cared for no one but himself. He doesn't care about his long term well being, if he did he wouldn't be picking fights against people he doesn't know he can beat. He deludes himself into thinking he can defeat anyone just because he gains enormous power and then coaxes powerful beings into transforming. That's not someone that cares for themselves.

Vegeta spends over a year on Earth before he ever even heard of the Cyborgs. I'm not saying Vegeta's a cuddly teddy bear, but his change is gradual. It didn't just start at after his training in the Room of Spirit and Time. It's one of many watershed moments that Vegeta has in his long development.

Nothing is reflected in his appearance as a Super Saiyan that wasn't there before.

When Vegeta turned into Majin Vegeta he became brutal and more aggressive. He's also brutal against Zarbon.

Rule of funny hasn't stopped you in the past.

And I'm not sure I can agree with you. Names even turn her on for fuck's sake (this while she was dating Yamcha). Plus the worst he said to her is that she's vulgar (which she kinda is).

I assume you are referring to Chichi. I acknowledge that she's played for comedy, but the difference is she's a bitch. I can take flightiness more than I can stand bitchiness. Names turn Bulma on?

Didn't Trunks say that it was Vegeta's pride that attracted her? Vegeta's "pride" can manifest itself in many negative ways, but I don't think the negative aspects were what drew her in. Even Trunks found some appeal in his father's pride.

[DBZAOTA482]

I assume you are referring to Chichi. I acknowledge that she's played for comedy, but the difference is she's a bitch. I can take flightiness more than I can stand bitchiness. Names turn Bulma on?

Didn't Trunks say that it was Vegeta's pride that attracted her? Vegeta's "pride" can manifest itself in many negative ways, but I don't think the negative aspects were what drew her in. Even Trunks found some appeal in his father's pride.

Not really (that's a different matter though). Whenever I make an obvious joke you take it too much to heart. Also, Bulma had hopes Jackie Shun and Giran would be hot because of their names. Who the fuck does that?

And yeah, Trunks said his pride attracted her and I get what he's saying there. It's a consensus that badass tickle female's fancies more than "nice" guys.

[ABED]

I got that it was meant to be a humorous comment, but there was more to it than that, and you can't discount the fact that while it may be an obvious joke to you, inflection counts for a LOT with humor, something that's difficult to convey in an internet post.

And yeah, Trunks said his pride attracted her and I get what he's saying there. It's a consensus that badass tickle female's fancies more than "nice" guys.

I get that girls are attracted more to the bad boys (especially in fiction), but that's the same reason Trunks grows to like his father?

[DBZAOTA482]

I got that it was meant to be a humorous comment, but there was more to it than that, and you can't discount the fact that while it may be an obvious joke to you, inflection counts for a LOT with humor, something that's difficult to convey in an internet post.

I guess when you put it that way but I find it pretty funny you'd actually think I'd be ridiculous enough to believe Goku would purposely hurt somebody, let alone his wife, just to satisfy his selfish whims.

I get that girls are attracted more to the bad boys (especially in fiction), but that's the same reason Trunks grows to like his father?

Kinda but throughout the entire Artificial Human/Cell Saga, he seem intent on earning his father's approval thus breaking that barrier of pride.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Forget about the guidebooks.

Why?

He's probably not full out lying as much as exaggerating and trying to strike fear into his opponent. Can you get specific about when he said this.

So that’s your level… I didn’t mention it, but… When I become a Super Saiyan, I grow even more brutal… And I get a little excited… You don’t feel pain, do you? How Lucky.

Vegeta was a dick, but he had to have changed for him to stay on Earth and not kill anyone. I think being brutalized by Freeza got to him. Toriyama made a point of having him cry, which I recall was a first. Then he discovered that Goku, a lower class warrior, completely outclassed him and became a the Super Saiyan of legend. I think both of those things played a big part in his development. What good does spending a year with someone do if you don't spend time with them?

I agree that it played a role in his character development, but I don't see how it made him a better person.

Nothing is reflected in his appearance as a Super Saiyan that wasn't there before.

I don't think so:

Spoiler:

The look in his eyes, and even his face, changes drastically from base to SS to SS2. And every Super Saiyan (except for relaxed Super Saiyans that mastered the form & Super Saiyan God) has the angry look in his eyes all the time, in every single panel. Same for Ultimate Gohan.

When Vegeta turned into Majin Vegeta he became brutal and more aggressive.

To a more extreme level.

[ABED]

I agree that it played a role in his character development, but I don't see how it made him a better person.

Not directly, but I do think he lost his passion for universal domination, and then just wanted to be stronger, more and more his armor started to be chipped away. I don't see how just the act of being in the same room as Trunks for a year makes him care when we know they did next to nothing together. This isn't like Piccolo. There was already something there, if only a seed. That development you mentioned is his development from villain to anti-hero. I can't bring myself to call him a flat out hero.

Why?

For reasons I already wrote.

I don't think so:

You were referring to Vegeta, not Goku. In any case, is Goku more aggressive in his SS3 form? No. SS2? No. He's not even angry in that scene. If anything he's unnervingly calm.

To a more extreme level.

Not sure how that helps your case.

[Retan]

How can some of you say Toriyama's manga isn't Canon?

[KentalSSJ6]

How can some of you say Toriyama's manga isn't Canon?

Because many discredit the movies, gt, and filler as non-canon because it contradicts and clashes with stuff in the manga, even though the manga contradicts and clashes with itself on some occasions. No reason to discredit a flawed product when even the source product itself is flawed.

[Retan]

The movies, GT, and filler are non-canon because they weren't written by Toriyama. Toriyama can forget it all and do something completely different with it and claim it all as Dragonball canon, and be right because Toriyama is the Canon God, not VegettoEX, not you, not me, not anyone else!

[DBZGTKOSDH]

For reasons I already wrote.

Where?

You were referring to Vegeta, not Goku. In any case, is Goku more aggressive in his SS3 form? No. SS2? No. He's not even angry in that scene. If anything he's unnervingly calm.

I'm not sure if you pretend to not see it, but if you pay a little attention, you will see that Goku's look in his face changes between forms. SS appears more angry than base, SS2 appears more angry than SS, and SS3 appears more angry, but calmer than SS2.

Not sure how that helps your case.

Why? Super Saiyan doesn't make someone evil, just more aggressive than normally.

How can some of you say Toriyama's manga isn't Canon?

Because there is nothing that is non-canon in the first place.

[DBZAOTA482]

I agree that it played a role in his character development, but I don't see how it made him a better person.

Not directly, but I do think he lost his passion for universal domination, and then just wanted to be stronger, more and more his armor started to be chipped away. I don't see how just the act of being in the same room as Trunks for a year makes him care when we know they did next to nothing together. This isn't like Piccolo. There was already something there, if only a seed. That development you mentioned is his development from villain to anti-hero. I can't bring myself to call him a flat out hero.

Why?

For reasons I already wrote.

I don't think so:

You were referring to Vegeta, not Goku. In any case, is Goku more aggressive in his SS3 form? No. SS2? No. He's not even angry in that scene. If anything he's unnervingly calm.

To a more extreme level.

Not sure how that helps your case.

Puttinh this Super Saiyan business aside, I need you to answer you question. Do you agree with me that Kaioshin is a dumbass, and an overall terrible character?

[ABED]

Puttinh this Super Saiyan business aside, I need you to answer you question. Do you agree with me that Kaioshin is a dumbass, and an overall terrible character?

He's certainly dumb, but I don't really think about him much.

Why? Super Saiyan doesn't make someone evil, just more aggressive than normally.

Vegeta was aggressive because he got the power he wanted in order to make Goku suffer. It wasn't the Super Saiyan part. You have your causality backwards.

Because there is nothing that is non-canon in the first place.

Fan fiction isn't canon.

I'm not sure if you pretend to not see it, but if you pay a little attention, you will see that Goku's look in his face changes between forms. SS appears more angry than base, SS2 appears more angry than SS, and SS3 appears more angry, but calmer than SS2.

You are basing it on a drawing? His actions are FAR more relevant.

[MediaFanGirl93]

I actually like the English dub of the show. Sure it may have errors, but I still enjoy it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta was aggressive because he got the power he wanted in order to make Goku suffer. It wasn't the Super Saiyan part. You have your causality backwards.

What? Vegeta said that when he transforms into a Super Saiyan, he gets more brutal. He says nothing about power or Goku.

Fan fiction isn't canon.

Fan Fiction isn't official to be canon or non-canon.

You are basing it on a drawing? His actions are FAR more relevant.

What actions would you expect him to do?

BTW, I think it would be best to reply for these in the other thread, since they are more relevant there, and we are arguing about the same things in both threads.

[TheOverlyMadHatter]

I actually like the English dub of the show. Sure it may have errors, but I still enjoy it.

Not really unpopular. Lots of people enjoy it.

[ABED]

Vegeta was aggressive because he got the power he wanted in order to make Goku suffer. It wasn't the Super Saiyan part. You have your causality backwards.

What? Vegeta said that when he transforms into a Super Saiyan, he gets more brutal. He says nothing about power or Goku.

Fan fiction isn't canon.

Fan Fiction isn't official to be canon or non-canon.

You are basing it on a drawing? His actions are FAR more relevant.

What actions would you expect him to do?

BTW, I think it would be best to reply for these in the other thread, since they are more relevant there, and we are arguing about the same things in both threads.

Well if Vegeta says it, it must be true. He says he's the most powerful Saiyan ever, so that must be true. Goku is his obsession, and he allowed himself to become a Majin in order to return to his evil ways and gain the power he wanted to fight Goku.

Fan fiction isn't official, and not part of Toriyama's story, ergo not canon. Do you know what canon is, or is it some floating nebulous concept in your mind that you kind of know what it is? Be honest.

I would expect Goku to not be in control of his actions if it really affected personality as much as you believe. It might at first before he was used to it, as we saw when he yells at Gohan, but I don't recall anymore instances of that. The restless feeling he was referring to in the Room of Spirit and Time is purely physical.