Gohan Out of Character at Cell Games? Let's end this debate.

[rereboy]

I find dogs entertaining and compelling, it's not art. What is art? What separates it from everything else? You use a lot of great adjectives, but it's so vague that it's basically meaningless.

I'm compelled, fascinated, and find beauty in a lot of things, that doesn't make them art.

Random notes and sounds aren't songs, random letters aren't words, random words aren't sentences, random events aren't plots.

Art is whatever man-made thing that we consider art. See? Completely dependent on opinion and our subjective side. I'm sure that if you go to a modern art exhibit you will not like many things or consider them art, but many people actually consider them art. That's what makes it art, people's opinion, people's subjective side. Some people find them compelling or interesting or important or brilliant or all of the above, and so they consider it art. But not everybody will think the same. That's why art is subjective and can only be subjective.

Same thing with entertainment. Don't know how to make this more clear.

In the several pages this thread has lasted, you haven't supplied a single scrap of evidence to support this notion.

There is no actual debate here, because "debate" assumes you have an argument, but you haven't. Gohan wasn't out of character. Gohan doesn't enjoy to fight, but he will if he has to. It's always been that way. He only enjoyed making Cell suffer later because of the surge of power increasing his ferocity.

"Because he always fought before!" isn't an argument, or even an opinion, but a reaction. He fought this time, too. But he became overwhelmed by the situation, as he is wont to do, as proven in every major fight he's been in. And the failure to recognize the difference between fighting and enjoying fighting points to your utter lack of understanding of even simple character motivation.

I haven't seen you actually providing solid arguments agaisnt what I've stated in this topic, either.

Gohan trained to help fight against enemies, yes.

Gohan wanted to help fight against enemies, yes.

But...

Up until that point, Gohan hasn't actually, y'know, killed somebody before. Ended a life.

He killed the Freeza soldier that destroyed their ship on Namek and never ever thought anything of it.

Yeah, but that was more of an indirect kill, wasn't it? I mean, unless the soldiers got out of the water after Gohan and the others left, they died from drowning, not from Gohan and Krillin's kicks.

Not really. Even if he didn't die from the attack, Gohan and Krillin just let the soldiers drown after they fell unconscious from their attacks, so they obviously, very directly, killed them.

[penguintruth]

I'm convinced this is a deliberate act now. I have trouble believing anyone could interpret Gohan's actions as out of character unless they hadn't ever even read the manga.

There's nothing left to discuss on the subject.

[RandomGuy96]

Not really. Even if he didn't die from the attack, Gohan and Krillin just let the soldiers drown after they fell unconscious from their attacks, so they obviously, very directly, killed them.

Also, the Daizenshuu confirms the hits are what killed them, and they were dead before they hit the water.

[DBZAOTA482]

Well... Goku wasn't entirely sure he'd beat Cell or not and wanted everyone to take it easy for the 10 days. Plus it's not unusual for Goku to put fighting above everything else.

Also, Goku is gambling with his rage so their fight, in a way, is pointless. And the Cell Saga is the first time he ever actually acknowledged his rage boosts, and he was a lot weaker then.

This isn't putting fighting above all else, it's him not telling Gohan when it makes no sense not to.

Goku isn't gambling with his rage. He's counting on it because there's no one else who can stop Cell. This isn't the first time anyone acknowledged Gohan's anger giving him power. It's not a pointless fight. Cell is out to kill everyone, I can't think of anything more important that fighting to defend everyone.

1. It is. He was more concerned about having a fair, manly fight than his kid's well-being hence neglecting to tell him the plan.

2. In other words he gambling, and they'd die either way if Gohan goes along with Goku's shitty plan or Cell goes along with what Gohan says.

[ABED]

1. It is. He was more concerned about having a fair, manly fight than his kid's well-being hence neglecting to tell him the plan.

2. In other words he gambling, and they'd die either way if Gohan goes along with Goku's shitty plan or Cell goes along with what Gohan says.

That's not gambling. There's a grand canyon of difference between taking a calculated risk and gambling.

And not telling Gohan has nothing to do with a fair fight. Not sure what your last sentence means.

Art is whatever man-made thing that we consider art.

So art is utterly meaningless. That's not a definition, that's not anything. Art has to have something that distinguishes it from every other concept or it's nothing.

Don't know how to make this more clear.

You've made it clear, I just think you're wrong. I've heard the subjectivist argument a lot. You aren't explaining anything new to me. I've also heard the subjectivist view of ethics and reality.

[jjgp1112]

I think I'll just go ahead and sum up what ABED and rereboy and saying, and what a lot of people don't seem to realize:

Gohan never showed fear of his power before. Gohan never showed a reluctance to defend his friends before. Thus, he's acting OOC.

Just because he's never done it before doesn't mean he's acting out of character. The circumstances of his battles with the Saiyans and on Namek were completely different from now. Gohan was fighting for his life in those battles. His back was against the wall and he was doing whatever he could to defend himself and his friends, knowing his efforts were futile but going out with all of his bullets empty.

This time though, he knows for sure that he's stronger than Cell and if he unleashed his full power, he'd kill him. He found the fight pointless because 1) the result was inevitable and 2) HE DOESN'T LIKE FIGHTING.

His other emotional outburtsts were spontaneous and in the heat of the battle. This time, he's being thrown out there with the explicit expectations of flipping out so he can save the universe. How is he supposed to manufacture natural emotions?

[thatdbzguy]

Let's take a look at what Gohan said again:

Gohan: "But I don't like to fight......like Dad does. I don't want to kill anybody.....not even somebody as awful as you."

He had absolutely no problem killing the Freeza soldier on Namek, nor did he ever even think about how he doesn't want to kill anybody.

If you honestly won't accept Gohan being OOC now, then it's pointless to try and convince you.

[ABED]

Of course Gohan's fighting for his life here.

knowing his efforts were futile but going out with all of his bullets empty.

Interesting, because during the Cell Games, he does the opposite when his arm is broken. He has to be convinced to fight back.


This time though, he knows for sure that he's stronger than Cell and if he unleashed his full power, he'd kill him. He found the fight pointless because 1) the result was inevitable and 2) HE DOESN'T LIKE FIGHTING.
1) He might have had an idea, but he didn't know how to bring it out himself, so hardly inevitable.
2) We know that but it never stopped him before. Why does it matter that he doesn't like fighting when the world is on the line? I'm sure most soldiers don't like combat and killing people but do so to protect their country and loved ones. I understand Gohan doesn't want to kill if he doesn't have to, but in this case, he has to.

[DBZAOTA482]

1. It is. He was more concerned about having a fair, manly fight than his kid's well-being hence neglecting to tell him the plan.

2. In other words he gambling, and they'd die either way if Gohan goes along with Goku's shitty plan or Cell goes along with what Gohan says.

That's not gambling. There's a grand canyon of difference between taking a calculated risk and gambling.

And not telling Gohan has nothing to do with a fair fight. Not sure what your last sentence means.

1. Calculated risks are pre-determined. Gambles aren't. Doesn't matter much to me as both come to chance but Goku seemed pretty hopeful the plan would work despite everything so gambling is pretty accurate.

2. He was busy basking in his own pride rather than telling Gohan of his plans thus he wasn't considering how the kid would feel so his priorities were skewed. Simple as that.

[Wibbs]

If you honestly won't accept Gohan being OOC now, then it's pointless to try and convince you.

It isn't a fact you know, that's just the way that you (and a few others I guess) see it. If there are people out there who don't want to accept it then leave them be. Don't plague the forums with the same threads. You need to see the argument from other users points of view rather than just dismissing anything that isn't what you want to hear and then starting another topic about the same thing.

[Zephyr]

Gohan never showed fear of his power before. Gohan never showed a reluctance to defend his friends before. Thus, he's acting OOC.

Gohan was never the strongest guy around before, and thus had no reason to fear his power before. Fearing his power now is not inconsistent, out of character, or weird in any way. He is an Earthling. A half-human child. He doesn't get off on fighting like his dad does. This is not a cool and exciting thing for him. Learning that one is the strongest guy around, especially compared to ~Gokuuu~, would be a high pressure-inducing revelation, that even a fully mature adult who doesn't revel in battle would be shaken by, fearful of, and hesitant to even want to make use of. Only, this, again, is a child we are discussing, so the magnitude of the pressure, fear, and hesitation is naturally greater.

Yes, he's fought before. Yes, he's killed before. Yes, he's unleashed his power before. But this situation is not like those. If the situation here is not like the situations then, why on Earth would you try to pretend that his actions in this situation here must be 100% consistent with his actions in the situations then?

Gohan: "But I don't like to fight......like Dad does. I don't want to kill anybody.....not even somebody as awful as you."

He had absolutely no problem killing the Freeza soldier on Namek, nor did he ever even think about how he doesn't want to kill anybody.

You do know the meaning of the word "want", right? He does not have the desire to kill. He will do it, if he must, but he does not have the desire to. Also, when the Freeza soldier attacked him, Gohan wasn't just watching his father duke it out with this soldier for the fate of the universe, have his father throw in the towel claiming he can't win, and volunteering Gohan to take up the mantle, against the soldier who may or may not be stronger than him. I mean, I did mention pressure right? These are two entirely different situations that you're trying to interpret Gohan's actions in. Apples and oranges.

[ABED]

1. It is. He was more concerned about having a fair, manly fight than his kid's well-being hence neglecting to tell him the plan.

2. In other words he gambling, and they'd die either way if Gohan goes along with Goku's shitty plan or Cell goes along with what Gohan says.

That's not gambling. There's a grand canyon of difference between taking a calculated risk and gambling.

And not telling Gohan has nothing to do with a fair fight. Not sure what your last sentence means.

1. Calculated risks are pre-determined. Gambles aren't. Doesn't matter much to me as both come to chance but Goku seemed pretty hopeful the plan would work despite everything so gambling is pretty accurate.

2. He was busy basking in his own pride rather than telling Gohan of his plans thus he wasn't considering how the kid would feel so his priorities were skewed. Simple as that.

First off, it was pre-determined. Goku knows Gohan's power, and he measured up Cell, and the fact that we don't know the future is what gives rise to risk. There's no way around the fact that Gohan is the only chance anyone has. Gambling isn't accurate because he's not being reckless by putting the world in the hands of the only person who can stop Cell.

2. That doesn't sound like Goku at all. It was for the reader, there's no good in universe explanation.

[DBZAOTA482]

2. That doesn't sound like Goku at all. It was for the reader, there's no good in universe explanation.

Yet you question how Goku lost character after the Freeza Saga.

And it's not like it's the first time he was like that (putting fighting before Gohan's well-being).

[ABED]

2. That doesn't sound like Goku at all. It was for the reader, there's no good in universe explanation.

Yet you question how Goku lost character after the Freeza Saga.

Not sure what that means

And it's not like it's the first time he was like (putting fighting before Gohan's well-being).

You read into him putting his pride ahead of telling Gohan, but that doesn't make any sense. He doesn't say anything to that effect, it's just you reading into it and pulling out some sort of explanation. This is not putting fighting before Gohan's well being. Gohan would still fight Cell if he knew, what would change other than Gohan having a clue and being able to prepare himself?

[garnetjester]

I think Goku didn't want to tell Gohan because he didn't want him to panic and feel a lot of pressure, he wanted him to relax as much as possible, which was a kind thing to do. The way I saw it, he wanted to take on Cell on his own, and if he failed, he had Gohan to fall back on.

Gohan doesn't have self confidence at all, so he probably wouldn't have believed it or stepped up to the plate anyway if Goku had told him beforehand.
I can't believe you guys are saying that what he did when he was 5 was what he should've kept doing all of his life. Characters are supposed to be like people, they grow up. It's like when Vegeta stops murdering people and all of a sudden he has a son and a wife and lives an easy life in the beginning of the Buu arc, was that OOC too? I think both things can be considered character development, but that's just my opinion.

[mAcChaos]

Let's take a look at what Gohan said again:

Gohan: "But I don't like to fight......like Dad does. I don't want to kill anybody.....not even somebody as awful as you."

He had absolutely no problem killing the Freeza soldier on Namek, nor did he ever even think about how he doesn't want to kill anybody.

If you honestly won't accept Gohan being OOC now, then it's pointless to try and convince you.

Freeza was like five years ago. Why would you expect him to have the same exact thoughts?

[DBZAOTA482]

You read into him putting his pride ahead of telling Gohan, but that doesn't make any sense. He doesn't say anything to that effect, it's just you reading into it and pulling out some sort of explanation. This is not putting fighting before Gohan's well being. Gohan would still fight Cell if he knew, what would change other than Gohan having a clue and being able to prepare himself?

I think it's kinda obvious Goku was projecting a bit of himself onto Gohan with how much pride he showed in his strength (wow son I'm surprised! I never this strong as a kid. So proud of you.), otherwise he would have been "fuck fair fights" and go along with Trunks' plan, or would he not feed Cell a senzu.

Oh and if he did then Gohan would probably win. Gohan could imagine Cell killing off his peeps considering what's at stake then booms on his ass.

[IIMaxII]

Why is this even a debate? It's pretty obvious that the SSJ transformations induce rage like emotions.

[jjgp1112]

2. That doesn't sound like Goku at all. It was for the reader, there's no good in universe explanation.

Yet you question how Goku lost character after the Freeza Saga.

Not sure what that means

And it's not like it's the first time he was like (putting fighting before Gohan's well-being).

You read into him putting his pride ahead of telling Gohan, but that doesn't make any sense. He doesn't say anything to that effect, it's just you reading into it and pulling out some sort of explanation. This is not putting fighting before Gohan's well being. Gohan would still fight Cell if he knew, what would change other than Gohan having a clue and being able to prepare himself?

He's not reading into anything. That's exactly what Goku did and Piccolo yelled at him for it, and then Goku clearly saw the error in his decision afterwards.

[Flame Dragon]

I can't help but noticing that this thread which promised to "end the debate" has gone on for 7 pages worth of debate...

Well, it's silly for anybody to start a topic that promises to end any debate to begin with.

Well, i didn't really promise to end it. My guess was just "let's try to move this discussion to one thread and then we'll see if we can end the debate, if not... we'll keep debating forever"