Should Beerus replace Vegeta as Goku's rival?

[Bullza]

Over the top reaction much

Last I checked the guy said "If we" and me being part of that "we" didn't wish to take that into account because it's filler so irrelevant to the true story and he hardly if at all counts as Goku's rival.

So calm down yeah?

[JamesOwnz]

Vegeta never got any breaks.

He should always be Goku's rival.

I'd have liked to see him turn SSJ3 before his fight with Kid Buu just to be a little more even with Goku.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Isn't this kind of moot since DBO history explains Vegeta and Goku going into space and killing each other?

[Polyphase Avatron]

Isn't this kind of moot since DBO history explains Vegeta and Goku going into space and killing each other?

I'm pretty sure the DBO timeline and BoG contradict each other...

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

What makes you think that? I'm under the impression DBO is virtually canon to the series.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Isn't this kind of moot since DBO history explains Vegeta and Goku going into space and killing each other?

I'm pretty sure the DBO timeline and BoG contradict each other...

Er, what?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I'm pretty sure the DBO timeline and BoG contradict each other...

Er, what?

Dragon Ball Online and Battle of Gods don't contradict each other, but Battle of Gods is supposed to be a part of the new Toriyama continuity that has been established with the manga and at least the JSAT, BoG and Jaco. Unfortunately for those of us who like to have defined, expanded continuities, Jaco contradicts DBO, so...yeah.

[goku the krump dancer]

How? is it because of Bardock or something?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

How? is it because of Bardock or something?

Well, despite being based off the manga, Dragon Ball Online works off the anime timeline. So both Bardock being saved from Freeza and baby Goku arriving on Earth are in AGE 737, whereas those events now happen in AGE 739 for the manga and Goku is a toddler.

Depending on what else is included in the Toriyama continuity, as I don't think it's ever mentioned if Episode of Bardock is actually apart of it or not in the Super Kanzenban interview, then there could be a contradiction with Bardock not being a Super Saiyan in DBO. Obviously he couldn't have used the form he gained in EoB from an out of universe perspective, because the special wasn't out then. But in-universe, since that's the subforum we're in, I'd think that if he were one, he'd have used it for more power against Miira when he tried to kill him via self-destruction...or maybe he was and the game got canceled "before the reveal"? We'll never know now.

[Marco Polo]

Dates aren't too important IMO. They can easily be adjusted just like they did with Pan and Bra's birthdays. As long as events don't directly contradict one another, it's fine.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Dates aren't too important IMO. They can easily be adjusted just like they did with Pan and Bra's birthdays. As long as events don't directly contradict one another, it's fine.

Pan and Bra's birthdays were never adjusted. They only instance of inconsistency with them is that Bra occasionally has typo in her information that places her as older than Pan. The very same book where that typo originated though also has the correct birth year in it as well.

In this case though, it's not just a date. It's events. In the anime and Dragon Ball Online, Goku is just a baby when he arrives. In DBO, Gohan asks the player to go investigate the nearby crash and you have to bring the helpless Goku back to him (implying that in a timeline without Time Patrol intervention, Gohan would have gone and brought Goku back to his house himself after investigating). For Jaco, Goku is two years older when he arrives. He's had a life on planet Vegeta and he apparently exits his ship and attacks Gohan while decked out in a battle jacket.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

DBO contradicts Jaco & BoG because of out of universe reasons, and since the contradictions aren't important plot points, I'll just say that Jaco & BoG retconned DBO.

As for EoB & DBO contradicting each other because of SS Bardock, I don't see it. Bardock wasn't a Super Saiyan when Freeza blew up Planet Vegeta, and when Miira saved Bardock, he had him in mind-control after that. So, he just wasn't in a dangerous situation & didn't get angry at any point to awaken the form.

As for EoB being in the manga continuity, Chozenshuu #1 covered it, so I consider it part of the manga continuity.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I never questioned whether Episode of Bardock is in continuity with the manga. I question whether it fits into Toriyama's own perception of the manga continuity and not whoever compiled the Chozenshu information. Same with DBO. The game's known information technically contradicts EoB for out of universe reasons, but if Toriyama wanted to fit DBO into his continuity, there was nothing stopping him from doing so. He seems to have intentionally changed the date of planet Vegeta's destruction, contradicting many things in the franchise, and specific to DBO, an actual plot based mission within the game. Having an old man go and save a helpless space baby from wildlife after a crash in the nearby mountains doesn't really work with a toddler seeking out and trying to beat up the first thing he encounters when he leave his pod.

As for Bardock's Super Saiyan staus. That's just it. If you want to have the manga, EoB and DBO in the same continuity, then Bardock has to of traveled to the past and unlocked it while fighting Chilled. In DBO though, Bardock thanks Miira for saving him from Freeza's blast, not for coming into the past after Freeza's attack already sent him there and saving him from having to hang out with a bunch of goddie-goodie bug-eyed purple aliens after becoming a Super Saiyan. Even ignoring that line, Bardock should have the transformation by the time Miira rescues and enslaves him. The mind control device may very well restrict him from using the transformation, I have no problem with that. But after the player breaks that device and releases him, Bardock is sent into a rage. While thankful for being saved from Freeza, he's furious at Miira and descides to sacrifice himself to take the bastard down. If Bardock, a true warrior at heart, ever had a reason to transform into a Super Saiyan in DBO, it was when he was trying to kill Miira. To make sure he got the job done...but he didn't, on either account.

I think I'm done with this little tangent though. We're slipping off the intended topic and if it goes on much longer, we'll probably be asked to get back on track (and I have nothing to say about the original topic). So, you can work it out however you want to fit your personal canon. I do the same, which is why I have my own personal rewrite project. But for a factual discussion, DBO no longer fits in with the continuity Toriyama has established for the DB works he was (heavily) involved in.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

As for Bardock's Super Saiyan staus. That's just it. If you want to have the manga, EoB and DBO in the same continuity, then Bardock has to of traveled to the past and unlocked it while fighting Chilled. In DBO though, Bardock thanks Miira for saving him from Freeza's blast, not for coming into the past after Freeza's attack already sent him there and saving him from having to hang out with a bunch of goddie-goodie bug-eyed purple aliens after becoming a Super Saiyan. Even ignoring that line, Bardock should have the transformation by the time Miira rescues and enslaves him. The mind control device may very well restrict him from using the transformation, I have no problem with that. But after the player breaks that device and releases him, Bardock is sent into a rage. While thankful for being saved from Freeza, he's furious at Miira and descides to sacrifice himself to take the bastard down. If Bardock, a true warrior at heart, ever had a reason to transform into a Super Saiyan in DBO, it was when he was trying to kill Miira. To make sure he got the job done...but he didn't, on either account.

I don't get your problem, Bardock has to get through a similar situation with Chilled in order to become a Super Saiyan. The conditions to become a Super Saiyan are "high battle power", "tranquil heart", "a dangerous situation", and "intense anger". Bardock seems to possess "high battle power" & "tranquil heart", but he never went through "a dangerous situation" & "intense anger". It's like saying that in a what-if that Goku killed Freeza with the Genki Dama, Goku would be a Super Saiyan after their fight.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I don't get your problem, Bardock has to get through a similar situation with Chilled in order to become a Super Saiyan. The conditions to become a Super Saiyan are "high battle power", "tranquil heart", "a dangerous situation", and "intense anger". Bardock seems to possess "high battle power" & "tranquil heart", but he never went through "a dangerous situation" & "intense anger". It's like saying that in a what-if that Goku killed Freeza with the Genki Dama, Goku would be a Super Saiyan after their fight.

(Still too far off topic. After this response, I'm done. Not even coming back into the thread.)

I know what the conditions are for the transformation, and they aren't relevant to the discussion. I think you're confused on what I was talking about, because nothing I've said was ever about Bardock becoming a Super Saiyan for the first time in Dragon Ball Online. It's all based around the idea of the potential inconsistencies of including both EoB and DBO in Toriyama's new continuity: Jaco, Manga, JSAT, BOG.

Episode of Bardock can fit within that continuity just fine by itself. So if Toriyama considers EoB part of his new author's continuity, then trying to squeeze DBO in as well creates even more problems than just trying to include it alongside Jaco's new information. Even ignoring the contradictory dates and events from Jaco for the sake of this specific discussion point, it's obvious the events from EoB would have to be applied to Dragon Ball Online if they were in the same continuity. Since Bardock can't get sent to the past and transform while fighting Chilled after already being saved and enslaved by Miira, Bardock would have to fall under Miira's control after he already became a Super Saiyan. This is what causes the problem, because Bardock already has the form unlocked, but even after he is released from Miira's mind control device, he never uses it in the game (for obvious out of universe reasons).

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Wasn't this supposed to be the whole point of Uub?

Uub is Goku's student, not rival. Goku was never Kame-sennin's rival, right?

Yeah, I think the whole point of Oob is that Goku was more excited at the thought of training him and intended him to be the next savior of Earth when Goku is gone. You know? Since Goku loves fighting so much, then what better way than to train and spar with a student. Something he hasn't really done before.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

This is what causes the problem, because Bardock already has the form unlocked, but even after he is released from Miira's mind control device, he never uses it in the game (for obvious out of universe reasons).

I don't understand this. How does Bardock have the form unlocked? The Bardock from EoB is not the same with the Bardock in DBO.

EoB Bardock: Freeza blows up planet --> Bardock is caught in the explosion & gets to the past --> Bardock fights Chilled, transforms into a Super Saiyan
DBO Bardock: Freeza blows up planet --> Bardock is caught in the explosion & gets to the past Miira saves him & places him under mind-control --> Bardock's mask breaks --> etc.

[Bullza]

I forgot I asked this. I still feel the same.

Vegeta just isn't the same anymore, he's soft and they've turned into a comic relief doofus who now dances and sings and looks under tables for voices. From how he used to be he's now a completely different inferior character.

They ruined Piccolo in the same way beforehand.

Not to mention that there is no rivalry anymore and Vegeta isn't even in the same league as Goku. He's basically what Piccolo was to Goku by Cell Games saga.

Beerus would make a good rival.

[JulieYBM]

There's nothing to Beers to suggest he is anything more than a mentor figure. Beers doesn't actively train to become better, Vegeta does. Beers is good for a laugh or exposition and he is the current wall for Gokuu and Vegeta to overcome, but as his character stands he is not a 'rival'.

[KentalSSJ6]

I forgot I asked this. I still feel the same.

Vegeta just isn't the same anymore, he's soft and they've turned into a comic relief doofus who now dances and sings and looks under tables for voices. From how he used to be he's now a completely different inferior character.

They ruined Piccolo in the same way beforehand.

Not to mention that there is no rivalry anymore and Vegeta isn't even in the same league as Goku. He's basically what Piccolo was to Goku by Cell Games saga.

Beerus would make a good rival.

Vegeta flat out admitted to himself that Goku will always be the best. Vegeta is always going to strive to better himself and possibly one day surpass Goku, he's just no longer a ass about it or obsessed over it. Plus, we have been over his Bingo scene many times already. He did it to keep his family safe. He knows he's got no chance in hell in defeating Beerus so if Beerus got pissed, earth and everyone on it is screwed. So, he does a song and dance number to keep the cat happy and possibly save everyone.

Thats not being a doofus, thats being smart.