Validity of leaving 'Kami' untranslated

[ABED]

Cause 'MURICA!

That's about it.

I hate when people say 'MURICA so much, as if patriotism is a knock against that person. I don't think those people draw a distinction between patriotism and blind nationalism.

By calling him Kami it's misleading, since it sounds like it's the guy's name.

True to an extent, I think leaving it untranslated is fine but you can still get across in context that it's not his name, but a title.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

American association with the word really is it. You can even put aside wanting to avoid any potential Christian ire and rest it solely on the fact that Dragon Ball's understanding of a God is does not gel with the average American's- or any other native of a religiously Christian or Islamic-centric country- understanding of the word.

[ABED]

American association with the word really is it. You can even put aside wanting to avoid any potential Christian ire and rest it solely on the fact that Dragon Ball's understanding of a God is does not gel with the average American's- or any other native of a religiously Christian or Islamic-centric country- understanding of the word.

I have no idea what you mean. Americans can understand the concept of a god that isn't God.

[Ashura]

I was always down for Kami over God if only because it's sort of a slippery slope. Do you then start calling Kaiou-sama, uh, Lord World King or something? The other thing is just, while most Americans completely understands there can be a god that's not The Christian-based God, even Athiests would probably first assume that 'God' thrown into offhand in a conversation refers to the Judeo-Christian version if only by virtue of the fact that it's the primary religion in the US. By calling him Kami, in my mind at least, interested people will probably research the meaning and see it's a little different and learn what it means.

I do like Herms' point way back though, how the Viz version makes clear who and what he is while still using Kami, though. Of course, that's a lot easier to do in a comic format.

[Herms]

You can even put aside wanting to avoid any potential Christian ire and rest it solely on the fact that Dragon Ball's understanding of a God is does not gel with the average American's- or any other native of a religiously Christian or Islamic-centric country- understanding of the word.

The thing is, DB's understanding of a God doesn't fully gel with anybody's default understanding of the word. DB uses the word in a relatively unique way, just as Hell in DB doesn't quite line up with Hell as depicted in any real religion, or how ki in DB is not entirely the same as the traditional Japanese understanding of the term. Even a scientific term like "galaxy" is given a unique twist in DB, and let's not even get in to the whole "android" debacle. DB's gods are probably closest to the bureaucratic god hierarchy of Chinese legend as depicted in Journey to the West (probably no coincidence there), but even then there's a lot of key differences. No Japanese person reading DB for the first time is going to see 神 and go "Of course! A green slug dude with an inherited position as overseer of Earth!"; that's a meaning that only comes from DB.

And importantly, it's a meaning the series only assigns the word gradually and piece by piece as the series progresses. When Karin tells Goku in volume 14 that the dragon balls were created by "God", the assumption is that the audience is already familiar with the term in general, even if they have no way of knowing yet exactly who "God" is in terms of DB's world (especially since Toriyama himself probably hadn't ironed out the details yet). Yajirobe laughs at the idea, saying that there's "no way God exists". Goku actually isn't familiar with the word, but this is presented as his typical stupidity. Leaving the term untranslated as "Kami" in an English translation means that it's going to be a word which a general English-speaking audience is not familiar with, so if nothing else the entire scene where Karin explains to Goku about how God made the dragon balls falls apart (which of course is exactly what happens with the Funi dub; their version of that scene makes no sense).

I was always down for Kami over God if only because it's sort of a slippery slope. Do you then start calling Kaiou-sama, uh, Lord World King or something?

Well, Viz calls him "Lord of Worlds" much of the time, and I think that works pretty well. But I also think there's also an argument to be made that terms like "Kaio", which Toriyama just made up out of whole cloth, have a stronger claim to be left untranslated than an everyday word like "Kami". A bit like choosing to translate "ki" out as "energy" but leave "Genki-Dama" untranslated, I guess.

These days of course there's now the issue of BoG and how Super Saiyan God flat-out uses the English word "God". It gets extra weird when secondary material refers to Super Saiyan God Goku as simply "God". Of course, there's a lot of issues like this throughout the series, like how the English word "dragon" is obviously used a lot throughout the series, but at the same time the Japanese ryuu is used a lot too. Should we leave ryuu untranslated when it pops up, to separate it from when the English "dragon" is used?

The other thing is just, while most Americans completely understands there can be a god that's not The Christian-based God, even Athiests would probably first assume that 'God' thrown into offhand in a conversation refers to the Judeo-Christian version if only by virtue of the fact that it's the primary religion in the US. By calling him Kami, in my mind at least, interested people will probably research the meaning and see it's a little different and learn what it means.

I got into this a bit above, but while it's important to keep in mind that DB has its own wacky version of God/the gods, I think it's also important to remember that newcomers aren't really supposed to know about that version ahead of time. When Toriyama has Karin throw out the fact that the dragon balls were made by "God", he assumes his audience is going to be familiar with the word and already have preconceptions of what "God" would be like, even if his plans for what "God" will turn out to be go against those audience preconceptions. In fact, that's probably half the point. Goku goes off to meet God, and surprise! It turns out God looks just like the terrible villain Goku just got done defeating. And it turns out God can die, and this fact is going to play heavily into the next few story lines. Then the Saiyan arc rolls around, and surprise! It turns out that "God" was really only just the "God of Earth", and there's loads more gods out there, and Goku has to go train under an even more powerful god who's higher on the totem poll. Who, surprise! Is a catfish man with a twisted sense of humor. People really shouldn't go into DB already knowing exactly what the DB god hierarchy is like, or else things lose much of their surprise. Maybe many English-speakers (or at least many in the US) have such strong preconceptions about what "God" is that translating the word will throw them right out of the story...but on the other hand, leaving it untranslated as "Kami" so that they won't have any preconceptions about the term messes up all the parts of the story that are all about subverting expectations.

On a serious note, thanks for the input, it helped clear some things up. Do you think it would have been acceptable for the subtitles to simple go with 'God' so long as they ensure that explanations of what that means within universe were made clear?

I think it can work, if it's done right (...which I guess almost true by definition). I've been calling the guy "God" or "God of Earth" for a while now, and that's ended up being the Kanzenshuu site policy. Of course, a large part of my motivation is simply to demonstrate that you can do that, and to remind people that this is what the character's title is supposed to mean, that he's not just some guy who happens to be named "Kami". Overall with my personal terminology preferences I probably leave more things untranslated than translated (Kaio, Kaioshin, Oozaru, Tenkaichi Budokai, etc), so going with "God" is kind of a notable exception. But if the general English-spreaking fanbase started to have really weird ideas about what "Tenkaichi Budokai" meant, then I'd probably start translating that out too. Actually, I keep thinking maybe I should start translating out stuff like "Kaio" or "Muten Roshi" for that very reason (he's not a dude named "Roshi", people!), but I'm kinda lazy and it's hard to change old habits.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

American association with the word really is it. You can even put aside wanting to avoid any potential Christian ire and rest it solely on the fact that Dragon Ball's understanding of a God is does not gel with the average American's- or any other native of a religiously Christian or Islamic-centric country- understanding of the word.

I have no idea what you mean. Americans can understand the concept of a god that isn't God.

Sure, but Funimation's young teenage target audience in 2000 (Whom I'm really considering)? Why not avoid the confusion?

The thing is, DB's understanding of a God doesn't fully gel with anybody's default understanding of the word. DB uses the word in a relatively unique way, just as Hell in DB doesn't quite line up with Hell as depicted in any real religion, or how ki in DB is not entirely the same as the traditional Japanese understanding of the term.

Oh absolutely. But again, sticking to Funimation's intended audience 14 years ago, which will likely have less understanding that whatever American average one could throw out.

[penguintruth]

I wonder if Mr. Santorum would be comfortable knowing the flagship product from a company his business partner owns basically shows that gods are almost completely worthless.

[Rocketman]

English-speaking Muslims use "God" to refer to Allah quite often, just as Christians use it to refer to Jehovah. People just use it to refer to "their" god, so I don't see why earthlings wouldn't use it to refer to Kami.

"Allah" is the Arabic word for God.

Likewise, "Thor" is Norse for thunder, while "Helios" is Greek for the sun. So calling DB's God of Earth "Kami" sits fine with me, as long as it's made clear that he is a god.

[Gokuden]

So he doesn't confuse kids already indocrinated by their region's/parent's/family/community's religious/country's beliefs.

[El Diabeetus]

I personally think the terms can be translated or adapted. It may not be a literal translation of Kaioh, but I would personally use Galactic Overseer, as the term if I were to adapt it since that more or less describes what his title is. Would use Universal/Supreme Overseer for the Kaiohshin. Kami, I'd just call God/God of Earth. Backlash for using it be dammed. Then again I try to find ways to adapt quirks. Like Chi-Chi's Goku-sa. I would go with Goku, hon'/honey. Would probably use hon' though to keep her hick-ish speech quirk too. It'd take some creativity, but I believe it's possible to get the points across even if they're not literal translations of the terms. This is what I'd do with a dub at least.

[RandomGuy96]

What does Majin mean, exactly? And isn't it the name of his species in DBO?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Excerpt from the site's Demon Guide:

Majin 1 (魔人 / demon-human)
The main “Majin” example in the series is of course Majin Buu. Buu is a being created by the mage Bibidi and is one of a kind as far as we know. Buu is pink, can regenerate as long as even a single one of his cell remains, can absorb others to take on their powers and physical characteristics… and can do lots of other things. In the computer game Dragon Ball Online, Buu takes a lover at some point after the events of the series, and by Age 1000 there is an entire race of majin descended from him.

In the original series, Buu is the only one of Babidi’s minions ever referred to as majin. However, fans have long referred to those Babidi controls with his magic as majin as well, most prominently with “Majin Vegeta”. The name “Majin Vegeta” has now been used in video games and on FUNimation’s DVD releases, giving it a somewhat official status. There is also one thing in the original series that supports this naming scheme: Kaiōshin refers to Yakon as the “majuu Yakon”, literally calling him the “demon-beast Yakon”. Majuu (魔獣) is essentially the animal equivalent of majin. However, it is possible that Yakon was known as this even before he fell under Babidi’s spell. Whether or not those manipulated by Babidi’s magic can also be called majin, they are clearly a different sort of being than Buu. They are all originally powerful warriors with evil hearts from throughout the universe, who Babidi brainwashed by manipulating their evil hearts with his magic. Their power is brought-out by Babidi beyond their own limits, giving them bulging veins and somewhat zombie-like powers (being able to survive having their neck broken, for instance). Those warriors controlled by Babidi have an “M”-mark appear on their forehead (or in Yakon’s case, his stomach). It is not known just what this “M” stands for. “Majin” is one possibility, but it could also stand for “madōshi” (Babidi’s title, meaning “mage” or “warlock”). It could also simply be an alien symbol that only coincidentally resembles the letter M, similiar to how Superman’s S is supposed to be a Kryptonian symbol.

There may be other majin in the Dragon Ball universe, as Goten and Trunks seemed to both recognized the word “majin” when they first heard it and even Gohan says that since Buu is called a majin he expected he would be much bigger. However, it is possible that their knowledge is based entirely on mere stories (they obviously have not actually met any majin before), or even legends ultimately based on Buu himself.

A much lesser known majin is “Majin Ozotto”, the final enemy in the Dragon Ball Z V.R.V.S. arcade game, whose name is rather bizarrely given in English as “Ozotto the Super Monster”. Ozotto has the ability to transform into the other fighters in the game, similar to Shang Tsung in the Mortal Kombat series. In his normal form he has three eyes and looks like a cross between second-form Freeza, Janenba, and Hildegarn.

While it can be used for a variety of different mythological and fictional magical beings, the term majin is very often used in Japanese for genie (djinn in Arabic). The term is generally used in translations of the story of Aladdin; in fact the Disney character Genie is called “Majin Genie” in Japanese. This is why Viz translates “majin” as “djinn”, although this caused quite a bit of confusion among English-speaking fans at the time.

[soulnova]

From the very start it was cleared Kami-Sama was the God for that planet in the Latin Spanish version... just as Kaio-sama was in charge of that part of the Galaxy. They still called him Kami-sama, or just Kami.

[dbboxkaifan]

There was an English dub that referred Kami as God in their dub (Big Green) link's below, too bad the voice acting was poorly done but still worth watching for the comedy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmpJbf3AX7A

"Good Lord it's God!"
"Green God!"
lol

From the very start it was cleared Kami-Sama was the God for that planet in the Latin Spanish version... just as Kaio-sama was in charge of that part of the Galaxy. They still called him Kami-sama, or just Kami.

The Latin Spanish dub version kinda feels like they were trying too hard to imitate the original Japanese with their "Kami-Sama" and "Pikoro".

[UltimateHammerBro]

In Spain, he was called God, and sometimes the Almighty (obviously, meaning God). Christianity is really big (too much, in fact) here, but that name didn't cause rage among believers. I don't see why calling him God instead of Kami would cause that in America.

As a side note, I like the concept of "The Guardian of Earth". Maybe if they had called him "the Guardian" for the whole series, it'd have been better.

[The Monkey King]

So they can call him God but not call him God at the same time.
They probably gave themselves a pat on the back for that one.

[ABED]

I think there are clever ways to have your cake and eat it too. I don't think even kids would be that bothered (if at all) by having Japanese terms left untranslated. However, I think you could do things in dialog or voice over where a character will say something like "Welcome to the Tenkaichi Budokai, where we will find out who is the best martial artist under the heavens."

If they think using "god" is offense, maybe use deity. In any case, like I said, I think it's easy to convey Kami is a title.

[MagicBox]

Personally, I'm fine with either "God" or "Kami," just as long as they make it clear in the translation that he's a god.

I personally use "Kami" because I think it sounds better when paired with "-sama." It's an incredibly petty reason, no doubt, but that's just how I feel. And I really want to keep the "-sama" intact so that readers can notice the contrast when certain characters (like Piccolo and Garlic Junior) drop the honorific and simply call him "Kami." I guess you can do the same thing and still call him "God," but "God-sama" sounds awkward to me.

Again, I acknowledge that my logic is a little silly, but what can I say?

[Puto]

For the record, the subtitles on the DVDs sold in Spain use 'Dios' (which is literally the spanish word for God), and nobody's head exploded over it.

[ConfusedPhantom]

I seem to recall him being referred to as 'Guardian of Earth' at some point.

I guess, like people have said, leaving it untranslated would still work. You can still conceive it as a title. It might sound a little goofy saying 'the Kami of Earth,' but it could still work.