Validity of leaving 'Kami' untranslated

[Fizzer]

I agree with what Herms said - the audience are meant to have incorrect preconceptions of what "God" is. If he just has some title you've never heard of, you're getting a different experience to what Toriyama intended.

[soulnova]

I remember the first time "God/Kami" was brought up was actually during the anime King Piccolo saga... when Tambourine was going around killing people I remember he killed one that was terrorizing a small settlement. The villagers were grateful and were sure GOD had sent him or something like that, like he was an angel of sorts. At the time I was Catholic and, while I knew Japanese had a different culture with a concept of Gods/Great Spirits, it felt weird the way they said it. My mother would watch the show with me and my sister, and while it raised some eyebrows on her part, she went along with it.

By the time Kami Sama actually showed up, it was clear he was regarded as God of Earth but it was a "Title", earned from his predecessor. It actually felt more like an actual Guardian in charge of looking out for Earth than a God, but that's how they roll. The only time I felt he showed godly powers was when he brought the moon back and created the dragon balls. xD

Here it also felt different when people just called him "Kami", for it showed lack of respect or being too casual.

With Mr. Satan, on the other hand, did made some people uncomfortable and brought the classic "DBZ IS OF THE DEVIL *hiss*". But the show was soooo popular here when he appeared that kids simply shrugged and understood Toriyama named his characters after silly stuff.

[ABED]

I agree with what Herms said - the audience are meant to have incorrect preconceptions of what "God" is. If he just has some title you've never heard of, you're getting a different experience to what Toriyama intended.

Maybe it's small, but I'd miss the Kamicollo joke if they called him "god". I think calling Kami a "deity" would be a good compromise.

[MagicBox]

I was just about to bring up the "Kamiccolo" joke. It's easy enough to explain if you throw a translation note in there, so it's not a big deal. But it's worth mentioning.

I think it's possible to achieve a good balance of using both "Kami" and "God" in the same translation.

[Adamant]

I was just about to bring up the "Kamiccolo" joke. It's easy enough to explain if you throw a translation note in there, so it's not a big deal. But it's worth mentioning.

"Picco-god", like the Danish translation used.

There, "problem" solved.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I'd have preferred Goddolo. =P

[RocktheDragon]

As someone who has not watched the English dub for quite some time, this isn't a topic that I was able to answer right off the bat.

I certainly feel that the untranslated keeping of Kami in the English dub had a lot to do with being politically correct, but that's just me. Having him called God would have been a bit jarring for many people. I can only imagine (especially in the late 90s and early 2000's).

[dbboxkaifan]

One of the motives why FUNimation might've left it untranslated was due to the sensitive parents in US (yet they let their kids play 18+ games) just for acknowledging that's God of Earth.

I personally couldn't give a rats ass what he's called because I'm not religious and either one is suitable.

[Herms]

As a side note, I like the concept of "The Guardian of Earth". Maybe if they had called him "the Guardian" for the whole series, it'd have been better.

That's the thing. While I really dislike the idea of them changing "God of Earth" into "Guardian of Earth", if that's what they wanted to do, then it would have been much better, simpler, and truer to the original to always refer to the character as "the Guardian" or even just "Guardian" and leave the word "Kami" out of it entirely. Instead, they went with that weird thing where "Kami" is treated as the character's name, and "Guardian of Earth" is his title, rather than in Japanese where Chikyuu no Kami/"God of Earth" is his title and we never learn his name.

And hey, maybe to go along with "Guardian" they could have changed Piccolo's daimaou/"demon king" title to "the Destroyer". "Piccolo the Destroyer"...that's way cooler than that weak sauce "King Piccolo" nonsense of theirs. "The Guardian and the Destroyer"; two halves of the same coin like "God and the Demon King". That's still scrubbing out all the religious references of course, but somehow it feels truer to the spirit of the original names than the haphazard approach Funi ended up taking.

I don't think even kids would be that bothered (if at all) by having Japanese terms left untranslated.

That definitely seems to be true, just looking at all the terms the Funi dub left untranslated (Senzu, Kaio-ken, Masenko, Majin, etc). I remember as a kid that I never even thought about what terms like "Senzu" meant until I found out online or through the Viz manga or whatnot. So yeah...not really saying it's necessarily good to leave loads of terms untranslated, but it seems kids will typically just accept it.

I seem to recall him being referred to as 'Guardian of Earth' at some point.

In the Japanese version? I'm pretty sure that never happens.

Maybe it's small, but I'd miss the Kamicollo joke if they called him "god".

Adamant already brought this up, but it's pretty easy to adapt that joke to go along with "God" rather than "Kami". And any translation of the series is already going to have to make all sorts of adaptations like that. Handling "Kamiccolo" is a softball compared to dealing with Android No.8's "Hatchan" nickname, and surely nobody would argue that the best way to deal with that is to leave "8" untranslated and just call the guy "Android No.Hatchi"?

[ABED]

I prefer Kamicollo to Picco-god.

Calling him the Kami of Earth works fine. Mentioning that he's a deity works.

How is King Piccolo nonsense? They just lopped off Demon, but it gets across the idea.

Given that even the Japanese throw in English words like Super or Big Bang Attack, I think leaving Kami untranslated is perfectly okay.

[Puto]

It's not nonsense, but it doesn't really get the point across. The point of the title daimao is that he's supposed to be this supremely evil being, the 'king of evil'. Shortening it to just 'King' makes it nonsense because it makes no sense - he's a king of what?

[ABED]

It's not nonsense, but it doesn't really get the point across. The point of the title daimao is that he's supposed to be this supremely evil being, the 'king of evil'. Shortening it to just 'King' makes it nonsense because it makes no sense - he's a king of what?

Does it need to be spoonfed?

surely nobody would argue that the best way to deal with that is to leave "8" untranslated and just call the guy "Android No.Hatchi"?

But why does everything have to be uniform? Does everything have to be translated or untranslated? Why not call Kaio-sama "The King of Worlds"?

[dbboxkaifan]

"King Piccolo" doesn't specify whether he was a good or bad king.

What if we had "King Hitler" would've we known he was insane? No. King Kai?

[ABED]

"King Piccolo" doesn't specify whether he was a good or bad king.

What if we had "King Hitler" would've we known he was insane? No. King Kai?

We know he's a bad guy. I'm not sure what your Hitler point is getting at.

[MagicBox]

Adamant already brought this up, but it's pretty easy to adapt that joke to go along with "God" rather than "Kami". And any translation of the series is already going to have to make all sorts of adaptations like that. Handling "Kamiccolo" is a softball compared to dealing with Android No.8's "Hatchan" nickname, and surely nobody would argue that the best way to deal with that is to leave "8" untranslated and just call the guy "Android No.Hatchi"?

For the record, I don't think the "Kamiccolo" joke is this huge translation/adaption obstacle or anything like that, and I don't think that's what ABED was saying either. I know that there's tons of wordplay a translator has to deal with for a series like this (or any series, really). I don't think anyone was using that as a way to say "Nope, you can't adapt this thing because then there's no possible way that this other thing would work!" There's always a way to make it work.

It was just another reason I was listing for why I would personally use "Kami" if I was the guy translating the series. Other people would rather use "God" and that works just fine as well.

[ABED]

Adamant already brought this up, but it's pretty easy to adapt that joke to go along with "God" rather than "Kami". And any translation of the series is already going to have to make all sorts of adaptations like that. Handling "Kamiccolo" is a softball compared to dealing with Android No.8's "Hatchan" nickname, and surely nobody would argue that the best way to deal with that is to leave "8" untranslated and just call the guy "Android No.Hatchi"?

For the record, I don't think the "Kamiccolo" joke is this huge translation/adaption obstacle or anything like that, and I don't think that's what ABED was saying either. I know that there's tons of wordplay a translator has to deal with for a series like this (or any series, really). I don't think anyone was using that as a way to say "Nope, you can't adapt this thing because then there's no possible way that this other thing would work!" There's always a way to make it work.

It was just another reason I was listing for why I would personally use "Kami" if I was the guy translating the series. Other people would rather use "God" and that works just fine as well.

Exactly. Adaptations aren't science, they are an art, so there's room for differences. Kamicollo is just a matter of personal preference.

[Herms]

How is King Piccolo nonsense? They just lopped off Demon, but it gets across the idea.

Except the entire point is that he's a demon, so leaving that part out rather spoils the whole thing. He's a demon king who rules over a group called the "Demon Clan", turns out to be the evil half of God, wears the "demon" kanji on his clothes and the clothes he gives to his pupil Gohan, and includes the "demon" kanji in most of his attack names. If you've got to whittle his title down to one word, I think it's pretty clear "demon/devil" is the one to go with. Especially since maou/"demon king" is often used flat-out as another way of saying "Satan" or "the Devil" in Japanese. There's several points in the series were Piccolo's daimaou/"Demon King" title is treated as the logical counterpart and antithesis of his better half's Kami/"God" title: the chapter title "God and the Demon King", Lunch in the anime saying that "there was a Demon King, so maybe there's a God too", all the hubbub in the Cell arc about God and the Demon King merging. You lose the idea of these two guys being counterpoints if you just call Piccolo "King". "Kami and the King"? Well, at least they start with the same letter.

In addition, daimaou is supposed to be a scary-sounding, impressive title that signals right away that this guy is bad news. The original joke behind the name "Piccolo" in fact is that it's an innocent, cute-sounding name that contrasts with the scary "Great Demon King" title (Kame-sennin himself points this out in the series). But "King" is just a generic royal title that could apply to anyone, good or bad, so the contrast is lost. On that note, another problem is that just calling him "King Piccolo" leaves little distinction between the title Piccolo starts out with, and the title he eventually usurps from the King of the World.

[ABED]

How is King Piccolo nonsense? They just lopped off Demon, but it gets across the idea.

Except the entire point is that he's a demon, so leaving that part out rather spoils the whole thing. He's a demon king who rules over a group called the "Demon Clan", turns out to be the evil half of God, wears the "demon" kanji on his clothes and the clothes he gives to his pupil Gohan, and includes the "demon" kanji in most of his attack names. If you've got to whittle his title down to one word, I think it's pretty clear "demon/devil" is the one to go with. Especially since maou/"demon king" is often used flat-out as another way of saying "Satan" or "the Devil" in Japanese. There's several points in the series were Piccolo's daimaou/"Demon King" title is treated as the logical counterpart and antithesis of his better half's Kami/"God" title: the chapter title "God and the Demon King", Lunch in the anime saying that "there was a Demon King, so maybe there's a God too", all the hubbub in the Cell arc about God and the Demon King merging. You lose the idea of these two guys being counterpoints if you just call Piccolo "King". "Kami and the King"? Well, at least they start with the same letter.

In addition, daimaou is supposed to be a scary-sounding, impressive title that signals right away that this guy is bad news. The original joke behind the name "Piccolo" in fact is that it's an innocent, cute-sounding name that contrasts with the scary "Great Demon King" title (Kame-sennin himself points this out in the series). But "King" is just a generic royal title that could apply to anyone, good or bad, so the contrast is lost. On that note, another problem is that just calling him "King Piccolo" leaves little distinction between the title Piccolo starts out with, and the title he eventually usurps from the King of the World.

The point is still made throughout the show without it being in his name. You don't have to tell me who Piccolo is, I know the story, my point is that it's not illogical to leave off that part of the title if you are translating it. Are you afraid that kids won't get that he's the king of demons? Does everything have to be spoonfed?

Puto's point is that it didn't make any sense. I agree that Demon King works better, but King still works. As for usurping the King of the World, it still works even if you lop off Demon.

[Herms]

The point is still made throughout the show without it being in his name. You don't have to tell me who Piccolo is, I know the story, my point is that it's not illogical to leave off that part of the title if you are translating it. Are you afraid that kids won't get that he's the king of demons? Does everything have to be spoonfed?

I admit it's been ages since I've seen the Funi dub of the Piccolo arc, but don't they pretty much do their darnedest to gloss over the idea of Piccolo being a demon? I'm not even sure they mention it at all. I know they changed Mafuuba/"Demon Containment Wave" to "Evil Containment Wave", which seems like a pretty clear instance of them trying to avoid the word "demon". And God knows, there are plenty of DB fans who really don't understand the idea that Piccolo was supposed to be a demon, or at best just think the people of Earth mistook him for one because of his evil-looking Namekian features or some such thing. Though a lot of that is probably due to people starting with Z and not being very familiar with the Piccolo story arc or the idea that he was literally born from pure evil and that's why he was considered demonic.

Anyway, whether it's overkill or not, "demon" is part of the title that the guy's called by all the time. It's an important component, and leaving it out drastically changes the meaning of the title, rather like leaving the "artificial" out of "artificial humans". I don't think it's really the job of an English adaptation to go "well, he's called 'demon' way too many times in the original, we'd better clamp down on that or else we're just spoonfeeding the idea". And looking at Funi's general approach of ignoring religious references, the fact that they opted to leave "demon" out of Piccolo's title seems like just another instance of that.

But why does everything have to be uniform? Does everything have to be translated or untranslated? Why not call Kaio-sama "The King of Worlds"?

Well, I've already said that I think it'd be fine for an adaptation to translate Kaio out as "King of Worlds". It's basically what Viz does already, and I think it works pretty well there.

[Looneygamemaster]

I don't think it's really the job of an English adaptation to go "well, he's called 'demon' way too many times in the original, we'd better clamp down on that or else we're just spoonfeeding the idea". And looking at Funi's general approach of ignoring religious references, the fact that they opted to leave "demon" out of Piccolo's title seems like just another instance of that.

While I agree that this instance doesn't work, I think there's nothing wrong with the idea of English dubbers trying to do something they genuinely think would improve the show.

For the second sentence, do you mean "Funi's general approach" as pertaining to the Dragon Ball franchise or in general? Because that's not something they do in general.