The Cell Saga Is The Lowest Rated Saga?

[B]

He's a loser by a DB-perspective, but not really one by real life-perspective.

That's basically what I was saying. Yamcha could be the star of his own series if he surrounded himself with weaker friends.

[Gaffer Tape]

A single arc behind, Yamucha is rather giggly at the idea of Bulma getting pregnant. Next, he`s a cheater.

Actually, it's not even a single arc earlier. It's not even earlier in the same arc. It's *immediately after* we're "informed" he's a cheater. Honestly, that moment always made me thought that even Toriyama didn't buy the crap he was trying to sell, and that was just his way of going, "Yeah, this makes *no* sense, but aren't I just silly?"

He fails completely as a martial artist, is constantly used for comic relief relating to his failures, always loses, loses his girlfriend to a murderous maniac who killed him and his fiends and tried to blow up Earth, has to resort to competing with normal assholes, gets killed by a goddamned MOOK, and is mocked openly by Toriyama himself. That's why he gets classified as a loser.

And, as I've said before, it's always hard to take your opinion on this seriously when you've openly admitted you aren't terribly knowledgeable about the early portions of the series wherein the character has his most screen time. But, yeah, the guy is a three-time finalist in the most prestigious martial arts competition in the world. If that makes someone a "complete failure" as a martial artist, then I guess Bruce Lee is actually an interior designer. Let's see. Kuririn was killed by a MOOK, while Chaozu was killed by that mook's leader, yet I don't see you claiming that that makes Chaozu better than Kuririn.

[Kid Buu]

Yeah the Cell Arc characterization is just pitful at times.

Vegeta went from being my favourite character to my least.

[Fionordequester]

Actually, it's not even a single arc earlier. It's not even earlier in the same arc. It's *immediately after* we're "informed" he's a cheater. Honestly, that moment always made me thought that even Toriyama didn't buy the crap he was trying to sell, and that was just his way of going, "Yeah, this makes *no* sense, but aren't I just silly?"

Actually, that gives me another idea. What if Yamcha was a cheater...but it was partially because of how coldly Bulma treated him? Instead of flat out telling her he was leaving, he just sort of fell for some other girls after starting to lose hope in ever getting anywhere with Bulma? Hence what I interpreted as his "oh my goodness, am I FINALLY going to have sex with Bulma, maybe?!" reaction.

And, as I've said before, it's always hard to take your opinion on this seriously when you've openly admitted you aren't terribly knowledgeable about the early portions of the series wherein the character has his most screen time.

This response, that you're giving right here to RandomGuy? That's part of the reason I started my thread, which I unfortunately haven't had much occasion to work on. Maybe you ought to watch it with me or something RandomGuy? Or check out the thread? I'd certainly be interested in hearing what you have to say about it, since you seem to be just as exacting as I am with stories!

[Gaffer Tape]

Believe me, I've thought of that. And, like I said earlier, such ideas might have been interesting. They just don't ever happen. If Toriyama had introduced that as a way of progressing any of the characters in the story, I *might* have been able to get behind it. I say might because I find it almost impossible to find anyone who cheats in a relationship to be a sympathetic protagonist. But, yeah, I have thought of that possibility. Also the possibility that it would have been really clever to turn the tables and have it look like Blooma was just possessive, controlling, and paranoid all those years by getting jealous and angry, and also for her to look like the unfaithful one by her constant swooning and flirtation only for it to turn out that he really was cheating all the time, and she was totally faithful. If it had been handled as a twist like that, well, what an interesting shock and revelation that would have been. But, again, it's not that. It's just a throwaway line that's never expounded upon or commented on and serves no other purpose other than to shift sympathy over to the new character's mother because the whole relationship was built on such flimsy ground that it needed that kind of justification.

[Kid Buu]

And, as I've said before, it's always hard to take your opinion on this seriously when you've openly admitted you aren't terribly knowledgeable about the early portions of the series wherein the character has his most screen time. But, yeah, the guy is a three-time finalist in the most prestigious martial arts competition in the world. If that makes someone a "complete failure" as a martial artist, then I guess Bruce Lee is actually an interior designer. Let's see. Kuririn was killed by a MOOK, while Chaozu was killed by that mook's leader, yet I don't see you claiming that that makes Chaozu better than Kuririn.

To be fair, turns out he was right about punching a dog.

[RandomGuy96]

And, as I've said before, it's always hard to take your opinion on this seriously when you've openly admitted you aren't terribly knowledgeable about the early portions of the series wherein the character has his most screen time. But, yeah, the guy is a three-time finalist in the most prestigious martial arts competition in the world. If that makes someone a "complete failure" as a martial artist, then I guess Bruce Lee is actually an interior designer. Let's see. Kuririn was killed by a MOOK, while Chaozu was killed by that mook's leader, yet I don't see you claiming that that makes Chaozu better than Kuririn.

Not really the "early portions", mostly just the Pilaf arc, as well some of the Red Ribbon Army arc.

He's a complete failure relative to everyone else in the cast. He never wins and always gets eliminated in the first final battle. When you compare him to most of the rest of the cast, then yeah, it looks quite pathetic. It doesn't help that Toriyama himself treats Yamcha as a joke, both through the story and through interviews. Maybe it'd be more apt to say "he's a failure as a warrior and defender of Earth".

Krillin was killed by a mook? When? He got killed by Tambourine, but Tambourine wasn't a mook. He was the Dragon, as I like to call him, and the second most prominent villain in the arc. He also was a lot stronger than Krillin, eliminated other martial artists effortlessly, and was a powerful demon. By contrast, Yamcha was killed by a nameless, faceless, mindless, mass-produced minion that the other characters effortlessly laid waste to with one blow each. C'mon, that's pretty embarrassing, and really looks like Toriyama trying to make Yamcha look weak (his Kamehameha is weaker than than a generic ki blast from Krillin). On the other hand, I like that SOMETHING came out of the Cultivar battle, as if someone didn't die, the Cultivars would just be pointless filler and complete non-threats.

Chiaotzu has a worse record than Yamcha, but that's mostly because he's not really one of the fighters. More of a prop.

[Fionordequester]

The way I feel about it, if Toriyama said he was a cheater, than he's a cheater, no two ways about it. I say this because, unless what the creator says is directly contradicted by his own story, then what he says goes, whether we like it or not. That's why I'm coming up with alternatives to lessen the blow a little, you know?

[Kid Buu]

Well if Yamcha did go from runnning-away-from-girls to Don Juan, than he accomplished the one thing that the other fighters never truly had: character development.

[rereboy]

Actually, it's not even a single arc earlier. It's not even earlier in the same arc. It's *immediately after* we're "informed" he's a cheater. Honestly, that moment always made me thought that even Toriyama didn't buy the crap he was trying to sell, and that was just his way of going, "Yeah, this makes *no* sense, but aren't I just silly?"

Because dudes that love being a father and that love the idea of their girl being pregnant and having a family, don't ever flirt with other girls, aren't ever attracted to other girls and don't ever cheat? Somehow, that's completely incompatible and totally not realistic and doesn't happen all the time?

Well if Yamcha did go from runnning-away-from-girls to Don Juan, than he accomplished the one thing that the other fighters never truly had: character development.

If anything, his extreme reaction to attractive girls in the Pilaf saga is an indication of much a sucker for girls he really is. So, him being over attracted to girls to the point that he isn't the most faithful guy around is actually pretty consistent.

The way I feel about it, if Toriyama said he was a cheater, than he's a cheater, no two ways about it. I say this because, unless what the creator says is directly contradicted by his own story, then what he says goes, whether we like it or not. That's why I'm coming up with alternatives to lessen the blow a little, you know?

Yamcha and Bulma are implied to have problems very early on since at the start of the red ribbon army arc Bulma was already pretty mad at Yamcha for "girl attention". And since then, in the manga, whenever their relationship is commented on (which only happens very rarely) its basically always something like that.

So, why do you need to lessen the blow? The manga basically implies that their relationship never worked all that well, and problems related to "girl attention" are mentioned as early on as in the Red Ribbon arc.

[Vice]

And, as I've said before, it's always hard to take your opinion on this seriously when you've openly admitted you aren't terribly knowledgeable about the early portions of the series wherein the character has his most screen time.

I'm well versed in the early portions of the series and Yamcha was treated like a joke then too, so RandomGuy's assertions are correct.

Let's see. Kuririn was killed by a MOOK, while Chaozu was killed by that mook's leader, yet I don't see you claiming that that makes Chaozu better than Kuririn.

Krillin was killed by a henchman, not a mook. There's a difference.

[Kid Buu]

The thing with this series is that every motherfucker here has to look bad so Goku can look bad, and being that Yamcha was first to debut, he just comes across as the biggest butt-monkey of them all.

[Saiga]

Y'know, if Yamcha's big flaw is that he cheated on one of his girlfriends then that's doing pretty well for a Dragon Ball character that started off as an antagonist.

[Kid Buu]

Honestly it has more to do with my dislike with Future Trunks than Yamcha being a cheater.

[Gaffer Tape]

And, as I've said before, it's always hard to take your opinion on this seriously when you've openly admitted you aren't terribly knowledgeable about the early portions of the series wherein the character has his most screen time.

I'm well versed in the early portions of the series and Yamcha was treated like a joke then too, so RandomGuy's assertions are correct.

Maybe you should read it again then. Because while Toriyama's choice with the character inadvertently make him look somewhat ineffectual *sometimes* to the audience compared to some other characters (the "Worf Effect"), within the world itself, he's treated as anything but. Whenever he loses a battle, all the characters, including Goku, treat it like a huge shock. In all the "pre-Z" arcs in which he plays a prominent role, he's the one who takes charge, comes up with plans, and carries them out because few other characters are capable of doing so. So... no. Even RandomGuy97 has admitted his posts are liberally marinated in hyperbole.

Krillin was killed by a henchman, not a mook. There's a difference.

Mostly in semantics, especially when you consider that, less than a year earlier, in the same story arc, someone with a comparable battle power managed to completely destroy both Goku and Piccolo at the same time, and that Yamucha, by and large, dominated the entire fight until he stupidly turned his back.

[RandomGuy96]

Mostly in semantics, especially when you consider that, less than a year earlier, in the same story arc, someone with a comparable battle power managed to completely destroy both Goku and Piccolo at the same time, and that Yamucha, by and large, dominated the entire fight until he stupidly turned his back.

How is it semantics? Tambourine was a named henchman with a personality, unique look, and story relevance, and one of the most powerful beings on Earth (probably number four) when he was a relevant antagonist. The Saibamen were faceless, nameless, identical, weak, mass-produced mooks who damn near everybody was stronger than, except for Chiaotzu and Yajirobe (and the latter managed to make up for his lack of strength in an awesome way, unlike Yamcha).

I wouldn't say "dominated". They had an even exchange where they both failed to hit each other, Yamcha landed an off guard Kamehameha, which did not damage the Saibaman significantly, then the Saibaman landed a surprise suicide explosion, which killed them both. Seems like the very definition of a draw.

Curiously, you didn't mention that Yamcha was still weaker than said guy, while Krillin, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Gohan, and Goku had all surpassed him. And are you seriously trying to pull the "he's stronger than the villain of the last arc (even though he's not), therefore he's great" card? Because that applies to pretty much anyone, and really isn't something to brag about. Especially when Goku and Piccolo themselves, upon doing, in Piccolo's case, inferior training, faaaaaaaaaaaaar surpassed Yamcha, who did not surpass Raditz.

[Kid Buu]

Yeah, Cell is not as compelling as Freeza.

I'm actually going to defend the Cell Arc here because I rank Cell above Freeza.

With Freeza and Cell, their debuts bring a lot of tension to the table. Despite so many repeated elements of Vegeta, it was the danger around Freeza that made him a fun character. Cell s insanely fun in his first form, as he is a creepy horror movie-type villain that kept outsmarting the foes. They also have have great Voice Actors, so it is a tie there. However, both of them go downhill when the actual fighting starts. With Freeza, his constant instant transformations just made his fight repetitive and it all felt pointless until his final form. With Cell, once he absorbed the Androids he lost his original goal and thus the original appeal was gone. The reason I why I prefer Cell however is that Toriyama bothered to give him a background. Sure, we have the whole story of Freeza and the Saiyans, but even there Freeza is the same person as he is on Namek.

[Gaffer Tape]

And are you seriously trying to pull the "he's stronger than the villain of the last arc (even though he's not), therefore he's great" card? Because that applies to pretty much anyone, and really isn't something to brag about.

No! Because it's the same freaking arc! That's like saying that Trunks is "a failure as a martial artist" because he could kill Freeza but couldn't touch the Artificial Humans.

I'm not saying that Yamucha isn't on the weaker end of the scale of major characters of this series, and his interesting character traits are quickly pushed aside to make him a generic hero type (a generic hero leader type, but generic nevertheless). But, yeesh, give credit where credit is due.

[Kid Buu]

To be fair, Yamcha doesn't really have too many interesting matches. His first match with Goku is probably the best one in the arc, the Invisible Man was funny, and the Kami one was worth it for the Sodiken alone.

The anime improved things by making his fight with Tenshinhan better and giving him good filler fights with Piccolo and Recoome.

[RandomGuy96]

And are you seriously trying to pull the "he's stronger than the villain of the last arc (even though he's not), therefore he's great" card? Because that applies to pretty much anyone, and really isn't something to brag about.

No! Because it's the same freaking arc! That's like saying that Trunks is "a failure as a martial artist" because he could kill Freeza but couldn't touch the Artificial Humans.

I'm not saying that Yamucha isn't on the weaker end of the scale of major characters of this series, and his interesting character traits are quickly pushed aside to make him a generic hero type (a generic hero leader type, but generic nevertheless). But, yeesh, give credit where credit is due.

I seem to recall Trunks wrecking the androids at the end. And it depends on what you define as an arc.