Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[goku the krump dancer]

Da Fuq?! Is that Boo's shadow or just him being really fast?

[rereboy]

...Hmm...well gosh, when you put it like that...so you're saying that Salagir doesn't have a very hard job?

I'm saying that his job in DBM doesn't consume nearly as much time as you seemed to be implying.

I do believe that stressing yourself out a lot to get to that level of quality can increase the chances however. There's no way of predicting whether or not bad things will happen, true, but one can tell what will and will not increase the chances of something bad happening.

Not really. Things like that are unpredictable by nature and don't conform to a formula. You really can't be sure if that will reduce the chances or not.

That's your opinion. Many here will disagree with every main fight being interesting.

The specials are meant to give us back story too. Not just take up time.

If you want fighting and nothing else...good for you

I believe pretty much everyone willing to be honest will admit that every main fight was interesting, only some of them were more interesting than others. None of them were flat out boring or really sucked, at most they were somewhat predicable in regards to the winner and that's it.

No, that's just how you think specials should be. I agree with you and I also think that they should be better and not just for stalling time... But when did a special do that? Never. They were clearly, right from the start, filler chapters designed to just stall for time with just a few bits from the universes, generally some alternative fights that happened in those universes and/or a general description of the differences between universes. They never really tried to do a special chapter that went significantly beyond that, probably because it would take too much effort and too much time to make it work when what really matters are the main chapters and the special chapters only exist to stall for time while the main chapters get drawn.

I realized that about the special chapters long ago after the first few and I never really cared about them since, so now they don't bother me at all.

[dbzfan7]

I believe pretty much everyone willing to be honest will admit that every main fight was interesting, only some of them were more interesting than others. None of them were flat out boring or really sucked, at most they were somewhat predicable in regards to the winner and that's it.

No, that's just how you think specials should be. I agree with you and I also think that they should be better and not just for stalling time... But when did a special do that? Never. They were clearly, right from the start, filler chapters designed to just stall for time with just a few bits from the universes, generally some alternative fights that happened in those universes and/or a general description of the differences between universes. They never really tried to do a special chapter that went significantly beyond that, probably because it would take too much effort and too much time to make it work when what really matters are the main chapters and the special chapters only exist to stall for time while the main chapters get drawn.

I realized that about the special chapters long ago after the first few and I never really cared about them since, so now they don't bother me at all.

I still say that's opinionated. Hell the biggest fight was Vegetto vs Broly, and countless people I recall got really bored of that one quick. That was the tagline fight to hype everyone too. Then there are some who loved it all.

Perhaps your right. I'm just thinking to much of a good standard. It'd be nice if something in the backstories would actually affect how they'd be at the tourney. I look forward to when Malik does his tourney. Hopefully he shows the DBM team how it's done.

All I'm seeing is brainless fighting without much story. AKA what people stereotype Dragon Ball and DBZ as.

[Malik_DBNA]

Perhaps your right. I'm just thinking to much of a good standard. It'd be nice if something in the backstories would actually affect how they'd be at the tourney. I look forward to when Malik does his tourney. Hopefully he shows the DBM team how it's done.

I'm not exactly sure how I got roped into this, but I appreciate the vote of confidence lol

[Fionordequester]

All I'm seeing is brainless fighting without much story. AKA what people stereotype Dragon Ball and DBZ as.

Well...that's kind of what the author was aiming for really. I mean heck, he put this in his synopsis...

The purpose of this fanmanga is to draw all fan dreamed fights, with a coherant scenario.

Notice how he doesn't even say a good scenario, just a coherent one. So if nothing else, you can't say he's not doing exactly what he set out to do.

[dbzfan7]

All I'm seeing is brainless fighting without much story. AKA what people stereotype Dragon Ball and DBZ as.

Well...that's kind of what the author was aiming for really. I mean heck, he put this in his synopsis...

The purpose of this fanmanga is to draw all fan dreamed fights, with a coherant scenario.

Notice how he doesn't even say a good scenario, just a coherent one. So if nothing else, you can't say he's not doing exactly what he set out to do.

Well it's not really just fighting for the sake of it, there's also reason, motivation, drives. Here it's pretty much just, I wanna win...and that's it. Toriyama had a narrative and something going on in all his tournaments. The first one represented the boys growing of strength as well as Muten Roshi's goal to make sure they don't get over confident, the second one had the rivalry of Turtle School vs Crane School as well as Tenshinhan's conversion. The 23rd represented the returning of Daimao and Goku being grown up. the 25th was a set up for the Majin Boo saga, the 28th was about Goku getting a new pupil to train as well as a sparring partner. This one is...just a bunch of fights. We know the Cold Family wants the dragon balls, but that's it I think.

Well if that's all he wanted, then good for him for at least meeting that quota.

[Hellspawn28]

we have many more visions courtesy of Bardock, u4Buu has wrecked havoc and gotten himself overpowered and imprisoned, Vegetto has lost - and so he's out of the tournament. Please, tell me, how is it that "the plot has gone nowhere"?

Too bad all of those happen so late. Those should have have happen back in 2009 or 2010. DBM should have ended a year or two ago. I feel like the comic jump the shark since the placing is terrible and we waste so much time with those special chapters.

[dbzfan7]

we have many more visions courtesy of Bardock, u4Buu has wrecked havoc and gotten himself overpowered and imprisoned, Vegetto has lost - and so he's out of the tournament. Please, tell me, how is it that "the plot has gone nowhere"?

Too bad all of those happen so late. Those should have have happen back in 2009 or 2010. DBM should have ended a year or two ago. I feel like the comic jump the shark since the placing is terrible and we waste so much time with those special chapters.

THIS...So we have Boo wrecking havoc which changes the story for...a smidge, afterwards Gast steps in and then it's like nothing ever happened (You could write that whole scene out, and nothing would have been lost). Vegetto loses...and nothing has really changed yet. We just know that XXI can do that move...so now wait til next year until we see him again .

[TheGmGoken]

we have many more visions courtesy of Bardock, u4Buu has wrecked havoc and gotten himself overpowered and imprisoned, Vegetto has lost - and so he's out of the tournament. Please, tell me, how is it that "the plot has gone nowhere"?

Too bad all of those happen so late. Those should have have happen back in 2009 or 2010. DBM should have ended a year or two ago. I feel like the comic jump the shark since the placing is terrible and we waste so much time with those special chapters.

THIS...So we have Boo wrecking havoc which changes the story for...a smidge, afterwards Gast steps in and then it's like nothing ever happened (You could write that whole scene out, and nothing would have been lost). Vegetto loses...and nothing has really changed yet. We just know that XXI can do that move...so now wait til next year until we see him again .

Honestly wouldn't be shocked if it was two years with the schedule. No issues though. I still hate the pacing though. But I won't start that back up.

[Tzigi]

we have many more visions courtesy of Bardock, u4Buu has wrecked havoc and gotten himself overpowered and imprisoned, Vegetto has lost - and so he's out of the tournament. Please, tell me, how is it that "the plot has gone nowhere"?

Too bad all of those happen so late. Those should have have happen back in 2009 or 2010. DBM should have ended a year or two ago. I feel like the comic jump the shark since the placing is terrible and we waste so much time with those special chapters.

It's your opinion and you're entitled to keep it as much as I'm entitled to disagree with you - I love DBM's schedule precisely because it is consistent (as a counter example let's take the Game of Thrones as a TV series [as opposed to the Song of Ice and Fire book series that was mentioned here earlier] - just yesterday was the premiere of the first episode of the fourth series - and while I just loved it, I couldn't stop myself thinking that I'd prefer if HBO released 10 minutes every week for a whole year instead of 1 hour a week for a bit more then two months. Of course such a schedule as I'm proposing is impossible for a commercial TV station - but for Salagir it is possible and I love the fact that it is so.) and I have no problems about the main plot - it is thought out and structured and this is a rare occurrence among DB fanmangas. Just which fanmangas have a plot that was created as a one coherent whole with forshadowings, several plotlines and similar features? I can't think of any - and Malik's DBNA (that has been cited here as an example to follow ???) is one of the worst offenders (what's the plot of this fanmanga? "I copy DBZ and create outrageous powerlevels out of nothing without even trying to understand the spirit of Toriyama"?).

[TheGmGoken]

DBM doesn't follow Toriyama spirit either. Honestly no manga does. DBNA plot is kinda obvious and recently try to be more like DB. Also DBM isn't exactly different from DBNA in terms of power and Malik fixed some of GT plot. Dbm plot is basic and not really well structured. Lastly Malik don't copy Dbz

[Tzigi]

DBM doesn't follow Toriyama spirit either.

We must surely have been reading two different fanmangas then. I have seen very fanmangas that would be so Toriyama in its storytelling style (just think about the Gotenks^2 fight, the whole inclusion of universe 2, XXI's reveal being so anticlimatic and yet so powerful... Even the rubber dragon in the last page is extremely Toriyama-like.). The only other works that are so Toriyama-like are Who wants to be a superhero? and GT:Revised...

Dbm plot is basic and not really well structured.

Please, elaborate on how it is poorly structured. I'm really curious because I see it as brilliantly structured: first there's a strong opening drawing on the practice of starting the storytelling in medias res, then there's an introduction: first it connects to a world we all know (universe 18 - the standard DB universe) through whose eyes we will get to know the tournament. We immediately learn that in the course of the story we will meet also some characters whom in standard DB we'd consider dead and unlikely to ever rise again - and they seem to have developped enough to become a new threat! Thanks to the first two fights we know that: 1. the battles might be intense and satysfying (if the combatants happen to be on a roughly equal level) 2. some battles might be really one-sided (thanks to the huge discrepancy of power between the combatants).
Then we see some new worlds - like the 19th - and start thinking about what could possibly await us as readers in those worlds and whether those guys there come from a world that had split from the standard DB story and diverged wildly - or maybe they are totally unrelated? After seeing several fights we start wondering about the precise rules of the tournament - and we get to see them. Then we get some short yet interesting (mostly from the perspective of the storyline) fights - Trunks beats the last member of Freeza's family, we get to see Vegeta defeat his past self (the u10 Vegeta is almost this thing) and Pan proves to be really powerful (as she should be - if we take the last chapters of Toriyama's manga into account).
Next we see a fight showing how different strategies might be employed in the tournament - and only then a huge fight evidently designed to please those fanboys who love DB for being nothing but a fighting story. Later the story starts getting darker, we learn of huge power discrepancies (but mind you: they are introduced subtly and well before there will be any use for them - it isn't: "the characters are fighting for the tenth chapter and the author has no idea how to end it so he imagines a new powerlevel that one character has been holding back the whole time [aka: the Kubo asspull]) and start wondering about even more known but surprisingly different (Bra, Kuririn, the Giant Namek [who at this point is nameless]) or even as-of-yet unseen characters.
Once we know quite a lot about the characters we get establishing shots of whole revealed universes - the lunch break is precisely for that. Only then do we come back to the point that we've seen at the beginning - the fight between Vegetto and Broly. And the readers are curious - how did the author (who only takes the DB manga as his canon - and discards anime) manage to fit Broly into his story? So there's a special chapter, designed to fit into the timeframe of the manga, that explains part of what Broly was doing there.

Do you still claim that the plot is basic and poorly structured? Show me the counterevidence.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I have seen very fanmangas that would be so Toriyama in its storytelling style (just think about the Gotenks^2 fight

The Gotenks/Goten/Trunks vs Gotenks/Goten/Trunks fight made zero sense, and felt stupid, not Toriyama-like. I like DBM (though it doesn't please me as much as it did a few years ago, it was in the top of my favorite doujinshi, and now it's in the bottom), but this is the worst point in DBM history, even worst than any Special.

[Malik_DBNA]

and Malik's DBNA ... is one of the worst offenders (what's the plot of this fanmanga? "I copy DBZ and create outrageous powerlevels out of nothing without even trying to understand the spirit of Toriyama"?).

That's a very simplistic - and frankly, insulting - way to look at my work. I put a tremendous amount of work into trying to make DBNA coherent and balanced, unlike some other fanmanga and fanfics (SSJ20 anyone??).

None of my power levels were created "out of nothing". I put DAYS of work and research with MULTIPLE people to make balanced levels and forms for EVERYONE. Most people put BASE Goku in GT at Z SSJ3 level, which I find asinine. Rigor was exceptionally powerful because that was the conflict to be resolved in that arc - overcoming his amazing strength.

In terms of foreshadowing, have I not foreshadowed an upcoming arc with just a single Chapter? Chapter 17 sets up the entire 3rd arc. Am I not following the lore and universe by using canon elements such as Battle of Gods, the manga, etc.? Whenever a problem with canon, power, etc. occurs, do I not go back and fix it?

In terms of "copying" DBZ, yes I did reference a lot in my earlier chapters. But recently, like Toyble, I have started to showcase more original poses and such, as I am now comfortable with the art style without having to rely as heavily on reference material.

In no way do I claim my fanmanga is perfect, but to claim I create stuff "out of nothing without trying to understand the spirit of Toriyama" is damn insulting without knowing the HUGE body of work, scripting, and planning that went into it.

[RandomGuy96]

I have seen very fanmangas that would be so Toriyama in its storytelling style (just think about the Gotenks^2 fight

The Gotenks/Goten/Trunks vs Gotenks/Goten/Trunks fight made zero sense, and felt stupid, not Toriyama-like. I like DBM (though it doesn't please me as much as it did a few years ago, it was in the top of my favorite doujinshi, and now it's in the bottom), but this is the worst point in DBM history, even worst than any Special.

Agreed. That wasn't Toriyama-esque at all, it was just awful and dumb.

[Saiga]

I also feel the same way about the Gotenks fight.

I believe pretty much everyone willing to be honest will admit that every main fight was interesting, only some of them were more interesting than others. None of them were flat out boring or really sucked, at most they were somewhat predicable in regards to the winner and that's it.

What do you define as a main fight? Because I would wager that a lot of people here would disagree with them all being interesting - and I don't think they're being the slightest bit dishonest.

[Tzigi]

and Malik's DBNA ... is one of the worst offenders (what's the plot of this fanmanga? "I copy DBZ and create outrageous powerlevels out of nothing without even trying to understand the spirit of Toriyama"?).

That's a very simplistic - and frankly, insulting - way to look at my work. I put a tremendous amount of work into trying to make DBNA coherent and balanced, unlike some other fanmanga and fanfics (SSJ20 anyone??).
(...)
In no way do I claim my fanmanga is perfect, but to claim I create stuff "out of nothing without trying to understand the spirit of Toriyama" is damn insulting without knowing the HUGE body of work, scripting, and planning that went into it.

Sorry if it insulted you - it wasn't meant personally (and also wasn't meant as an insult but sorely as stating what I regard as a fact - much the same way as saying "DBE" was a horrible movie isn't an insult but a statement of a fact regarding one's perception of a work that its creator might consider artistic but the person expressing this opinion probably doesn't) - but for me DBNA is one of the worst (story-wise) well-drawn (I very much like your later drawings - it's the story that bothers me) fanmangas together with Dragon Ball EX. I cannot stand either of them. And mind you: when I was talking about copying DBZ, I didn't even think about tracing/referencing - that's not something I care about - but having Vegeta possessed yet another time and similar situations of copying DBZ's plot without trying to make it adhere to the Toriyama storytelling.

Also I don't say that you put no work into it - I just say that it doesn't show to me at all. Whenever I read DBNA (I try to be au courant with each and every more popular DB fanmanga out there), I just feel that you aren't even trying - if you are then I'm sorry but it doesn't show at all (to me of course).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I have seen very fanmangas that would be so Toriyama in its storytelling style (just think about the Gotenks^2 fight

The Gotenks/Goten/Trunks vs Gotenks/Goten/Trunks fight made zero sense, and felt stupid, not Toriyama-like. I like DBM (though it doesn't please me as much as it did a few years ago, it was in the top of my favorite doujinshi, and now it's in the bottom), but this is the worst point in DBM history, even worst than any Special.

Agreed. That wasn't Toriyama-esque at all, it was just awful and dumb.

It was one of the most stupid things ever in fiction. Goten & Trunks (and Gotenks) between the 2 universes have lived 20 years of their lives very differently, with different experiences. They shouldn't think the same thing like they are standing on a mirror. That would be the case if the events were completely identical between the 2 universes.

But even if that was the case, somehow, it was also stupid that Trunks fought Trunks & Goten fought Goten. I mean, they were fighting for so long like this, why didn't they make it Goten vs Trunks & Goten vs Trunks?

Plus, I disagree with the idea "the stronger you are, the less SS3 lasts". IMO, SS3 lasts for 5 minutes for everyone that doesn't have a dead body in AfterLife.

The only funny thing in their fight were the Vargas' reactions IMO.

[Skar]

The pacing issue people have with DBM reminds me of my experience with Black Lagoon. The 24-episode anime was released in 2006. In 2010 the next saga was released in a 5-part OVA. There was actually more to the story than that but it turns out the author had a slow release schedule. Since 2002 there have been only 9 volumes and about 80 chapters. In 2009 he took a 2-3 year hiatus which even further slowed down the pacing. At this point I had two choices:

1. Complain online about the pacing.
This would honestly be a waste of time since the person I'm complaining about wouldn't see them. It's true that Salagir does read this forum and the comments but it would still be hard for him to please those people if you think about it. There are hundreds of thousands of viewers each day so the few hundred people voicing their opinions good or bad make up less than .01% of total viewers. Changing the pace of the story to satisfy a few fans might upset the majority who never had a problem with it in the past.

2. Be patient and read something else in the meantime.
If this is the way the author chooses to release their story then there's not much I could do about it. It's not the only story in the universe. I could always watch or read a different story until that author decides to release more work. I'm not a fan of the specials or their pacing but I've learned that complaining about them won't lead to any changes. I've heard that some special chapters have been drawn years ago and now just waiting to be released which makes it less likely he'd change the entire format now. Eventually every universe's story will be told and we'll be all out of specials. I think it would be easier to wait for that day to come than to consistently complain about the special every new page.

Malik's DBNA (that has been cited here as an example to follow ???) is one of the worst offenders (what's the plot of this fanmanga? "I copy DBZ and create outrageous powerlevels out of nothing without even trying to understand the spirit of Toriyama"?).

I have to agree. No offense to the author and I think the artwork is really great but the story is one of the most unoriginal I've seen. It seems like everything in New Age is an old idea or plot device taken to ridiculous extremes.

We have the usual fanfic SSJ5. Rigor is another mutated Saiyan and essentially a smarter version of Broly who King Vegeta also tried to murder as a baby because he felt he was a threat.

Piccolo can now become a +SSJ4 tier "Sage Namek" which is a stronger variation of the "Super Namek" he was before. The way he achieved it was with an old Sage Namek manual that apparently Dende knew about this entire time. He didn't have enough time to read it all so Dende introduced him to a stronger variation of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber called the Transient Time Isolation Chamber. The Hyperbolic Time Chamber itself was a pretty cheap plot device since it was on the lookout all those years and Kami never brought it up. That still isn't a good excuse to use an even cheaper plot device based on it.

#18 has some kind of power inhibitor created by Gero that Bulma removes and this allows her to become Ascended SSJ4 tier. It didn't make sense that an Earth scientist could create human cyborgs stronger than Frieza and cyborg Frieza. That still isn't a good excuse to take it to the extreme and make her stronger than every canon villain.

As if Cell and 13-15 weren't enough we have Android 22 who is yet another android build by Gero's computer.

These ideas aren't that difficult to come up with. The most common fanfic themes are new Saiyans attacking the Earth and Gero's computer building another android. I've honestly lost count how many fanfics I've read that used a slight variation of these ideas.

I don't understand how DBNA or GT could be considered faithful to Toriyama's Dragonball. Toriyama tried to expand the story with each saga not recycle old villains and plotlines. If Toriyama did come up with the story for Battle of Gods then DBM was actually the closest to what he intended with the idea of other universes. DBM was the first fanfic I've seen that decided the only way to give the Z fighters a challenge after the Buu saga was to explore alternate universes. Of course Bills and Whis aren't canon to DBM since it was written a few years before but I think they did a good job predicting the next expansion in Toriyama's Dragonball. I think that's really the only plausible idea for a sequel. Once a character is declared the biggest threat in the universe it's a little hard for a new villain to top that.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If Toriyama did come up with the story for Battle of Gods then DBM was actually the closest to what he intended with the idea of other universes.

No, the Universes in BoG are nothing like the Universes in DBM.