The Cell Saga Is The Lowest Rated Saga?

[Ninja Murasaki]

RandomGuy96, go bash characters elsewhere.

No ones interested in your DBZ abridged based views on the cast.

Its fine to make jokes about characters, but when you start taking it seriously, or bother people about it, then you've crossed the line.

[Olympian]

I wouldn't say "dominated". They had an even exchange where they both failed to hit each other, Yamcha landed an off guard Kamehameha, which did not damage the Saibaman significantly, then the Saibaman landed a surprise suicide explosion, which killed them both. Seems like the very definition of a draw.

He dominated. Said "even exchange", especially in the manga, is anything but. It`s one panel of Yamucha trading blows with the opponent (which going with the dialogue and what happened to the last one who underestimated his opponent) went at it harder to save his hide and Gohan remarking how he can`t follow them. Then the Saibaiman fails to grab Yamucha when he zaps on top of him and delivers a wave to knock him down.

At this point, we should make mention how they were all fighting with tournament rules to give time for Goku to show up and test it out, which is also stated. Tenshinhan doesn`t do anything else, other than knock the Saibaman down (not out), either.

Curiously, you didn't mention that Yamcha was still weaker than said guy, while Krillin, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Gohan, and Goku had all surpassed him. And are you seriously trying to pull the "he's stronger than the villain of the last arc (even though he's not), therefore he's great" card? Because that applies to pretty much anyone, and really isn't something to brag about. Especially when Goku and Piccolo themselves, upon doing, in Piccolo's case, inferior training, faaaaaaaaaaaaar surpassed Yamcha, who did not surpass Raditz.

I don`t see why anyone would have to mention such thing. The manga clearly states throught Nappa that the Saibamen had all the same power level Reading of Raditz and neither Yamucha or Tenshinhan exerted themselves much to knock them down. The Saibaman in quetsion did, with the kamekaze attack, and that`s the one nuance here.
Everyone, save perhaps Chiautzu, were presented as more powerful than Raditz.

Piccolo doesn`t lose points with an "inferior training", considering he was already ahead in the numbers game to the others, to begin with. Whatever training he did thought, he also gained a considering jump, so I don`t know if I would call it inferior.

[Olympian]

Allow me to break it down.

He fails completely as a martial artist

I`d like you to illustrate me how. X character always reached finals. X character always fought the direct rival of Goku on each Tournament (2 out of 3) or fights someone in the same general league (meaning out of anyone else`s league by the by, save the main character and the main villain. 1 out of 3).

Last I recall, he`s always given his due in either skill or resilience in the loses.

is constantly used for comic relief relating to his failures

Even Piccolo and Vegeta are. How many times Vegeta ran his mouth and ended up with broken limbs kissing the floor?

always loses.

Unless you mean Tournament fights in the Finals, which is already covered, that is wrong.

loses his girlfriend to a murderous maniac who killed him and his fiends and tried to blow up Earth

There`s no loss with the nonsentical explanation Toryama made up in order to have another Saiyan around. They broke up, he was finding poontang somewhere else and still ends up living in the same house as she does. Guy snatched a nice deal, stealing those two with the freeloading for life.

has to resort to competing with normal assholes,

Who are these "normal assholes", that you speak of? I think I missed that.

gets killed by a goddamned MOOK,

Who is this MOOK you speak of? The one MOOK Nappa adressed as being as strong as Raditz and that could also have killed Tenshinhan if Vegeta didn`t have a pride fit?

and is mocked openly by Toriyama himself.

I`ve seen you throw this one around but never seen you give an actual source. Dragonball at its heart is an action/adventure comedy here everyone is made fun off, even Goku at being stupid and naive. Is that what you meant?

[Kid Buu]

I`ve seen you throw this one around but never seen you give an actual source. Dragonball at its heart is an action/adventure comedy here everyone is made fun off, even Goku at being stupid and naive. Is that what you meant?

He's referring to this:

Speaking of Yamcha, he was dumped by Bulma, wasn’t he?
That was a shock. I often spoke with Hiromi Tsuru-san, who plays Bulma; both she and I thought Bulma and Yamcha would end up together. And for Vegeta, of all people! It really was a shock. So when I met with Toriyama-sensei, I complained, “Why did it have to be like this?!” Then Toriyama-sensei said, “Come on; [Yamcha]‘s a cheater.” (laughs)

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... ru-furuya/

Who are these "normal assholes", that you speak of? I think I missed that.

I think he's referring to the baseball career.

[Olympian]

I`ve seen you throw this one around but never seen you give an actual source. Dragonball at its heart is an action/adventure comedy here everyone is made fun off, even Goku at being stupid and naive. Is that what you meant?

He's referring to this:

Speaking of Yamcha, he was dumped by Bulma, wasn’t he?
That was a shock. I often spoke with Hiromi Tsuru-san, who plays Bulma; both she and I thought Bulma and Yamcha would end up together. And for Vegeta, of all people! It really was a shock. So when I met with Toriyama-sensei, I complained, “Why did it have to be like this?!” Then Toriyama-sensei said, “Come on; [Yamcha]‘s a cheater.” (laughs)

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... ru-furuya/

I thought it was something grand by how serious he seems with the stance. That`s in simple terms, the justification Toryama came up with to include Trunks in the story, nothing new. Where`s the open mocking I paid for?

Who are these "normal assholes", that you speak of? I think I missed that.

I think he's referring to the baseball career.

Those weren`t normal assholes, they were professional athletic assholes. And his point is invalid, Yamucha ends up enganging main arc villains/henchemen until the end of the Cell saga.

Because dudes that love being a father and that love the idea of their girl being pregnant and having a family, don't ever flirt with other girls, aren't ever attracted to other girls and don't ever cheat? Somehow, that's completely incompatible and totally not realistic and doesn't happen all the time?

They can, but not overnight.

Dude had a fangirl club running after him years before he even became a baseball star. He could have simply started earlier. But when you take the years in between for training in consideration, it`s hard to say when he got the time to work on his pickup approach. Even weirder when by "Battle of the Gods", Toryama muses how the character is still shy around women.

Mind you, I don`t disregard the author`s stance. It just reads as a forced plot point (one where the VA of the characters involved were caugh off guard), nothing more. I don`t mind Toryama or the studio having fun with it, some of my favorite episodes involve tall as heck green martians riding cars. But when fandom picks it up and puts a serious spin to it, it just tells me someone missed the point.

[Gaffer Tape]

And then there's the fact the baseball gig is filler. But if you do want to count that, how is that in the negative column? That makes him one of the few characters in the series to actually get off his butt and get a freaking job rather than mooching off others for his entire life.

[Kid Buu]

And then there's the fact that it's filler. But if you do want to count that, how is that in the negative column? That makes him one of the few characters in the series to actually get off his butt and get a freaking job rather than mooching off others for his entire life (*coughGokuVegetacough*).

Wasn't it Toriyama-written filler or something?

[ABED]

And then there's the fact the baseball gig is filler. But if you do want to count that, how is that in the negative column? That makes him one of the few characters in the series to actually get off his butt and get a freaking job rather than mooching off others for his entire life.

Neither Vegeta nor Goku need jobs. They can live off the land. Neither man demanded they be provided for.

[Olympian]

Let that filler stay, its great filler. When his VA says the character feels ordinary in terms of humanity, he`s right. In terms of passions and hobbies he`s by far the most normal looking human of the whole cast. Which is why he`s relatable.

[Olympian]

And then there's the fact the baseball gig is filler. But if you do want to count that, how is that in the negative column? That makes him one of the few characters in the series to actually get off his butt and get a freaking job rather than mooching off others for his entire life.

Neither Vegeta nor Goku need jobs. They can live off the land. Neither man demanded they be provided for.

I don`t think any of them need jobs, really. They can fetch and survive from anything the Earth provides by themselves without problems. The only thing they would need Money for is cloathes.

[Kid Buu]

Ironically in that interview, Yamcha's voice actor says he likes the Cell Saga the best.

[Flame Dragon]

I have to admit one characterization thing that always bothered me is that Piccolo was mad that Goku was making Gohan fight Cell despite Piccolo doing the same thing in the Nappa battle? I know he had fused with Nail and Kami, but its said that the Namek fusion wont alter personality.

In-fact I think its mostly this moment where the "Piccolo is Gohan's real dad" stuff comes from.

There is a difference, Gohan was meant to fight Cell alone without any support.
Meanwhile, Gohan against Nappa was supposed to fight as a team with Krillin and Piccolo, but he was still too much of a crybaby to be able to face off his fear of fightning so he couldn't help the completion of the Krillin and Piccolo combo attack.

[RandomGuy96]

He dominated. Said "even exchange", especially in the manga, is anything but. It`s one panel of Yamucha trading blows with the opponent (which going with the dialogue and what happened to the last one who underestimated his opponent) went at it harder to save his hide and Gohan remarking how he can`t follow them. Then the Saibaiman fails to grab Yamucha when he zaps on top of him and delivers a wave to knock him down.

At this point, we should make mention how they were all fighting with tournament rules to give time for Goku to show up and test it out, which is also stated. Tenshinhan doesn`t do anything else, other than knock the Saibaman down (not out), either.

They each exchanged a series of non-connecting blows, Yamcha landed on off-guard hit (what should be his strongest attack, to boot), it didn't significantly damage his enemy, and then the enemy suicide bombed him. That seems like the very definition of a draw.

Ten does takes it down with an elbow to the gut; Yamcha lands a full on Kamehameha and all it does is knock the Saibaman to the ground. Kinda pathetic, considering a single generic ki blast from Krillin could blow a Saibaman apart. Same with Piccolo.

I don`t see why anyone would have to mention such thing. The manga clearly states throught Nappa that the Saibamen had all the same power level Reading of Raditz

No, it didn't. It said they were in the same league as Raditz, not that they were just as powerful. Toriyama also said Raditz was stronger than a Saibaman.

The official power levels clarify this:

Saibaman: 1,200
Yamcha: 1,480
Raditz: 1,500

and neither Yamucha or Tenshinhan exerted themselves much to knock them down. The Saibaman in quetsion did, with the kamekaze attack, and that`s the one nuance here.
Everyone, save perhaps Chiautzu, were presented as more powerful than Raditz.

Yamcha couldn't kill someone weaker than Raditz with an off-guard Kamehameha, so I wouldn't say he was presented as stronger. Neither were Yajirobe or non-raged Gohan.

Piccolo doesn`t lose points with an "inferior training", considering he was already ahead in the numbers game to the others, to begin with. Whatever training he did thought, he also gained a considering jump, so I don`t know if I would call it inferior.

He trained in the mountains for 6 months to a year (he also had to train Gohan). Yamcha got godly training with god himself and a bunch of equal and useful sparring partners. Not seeing how Piccolo's training wasn't inferior.

Oh, and while Piccolo did start out ahead, the gap between him and the humans just grew over the year, despite his inferior training.

Yamcha: 177
Piccolo: 408

Yamcha: 1,480
Piccolo: 3,500

I`d like you to illustrate me how. X character always reached finals. X character always fought the direct rival of Goku on each Tournament (2 out of 3) or fights someone in the same general league (meaning out of anyone else`s league by the by, save the main character and the main villain. 1 out of 3).

Last I recall, he`s always given his due in either skill or resilience in the loses.

Because he's never won a single fight without help, except for his anime only spar with Recoome? And he always gets curbstomped in the first final match of the tournament?

No, Roshi, Ten, and Shen just brutalized him without even trying.

Even Piccolo and Vegeta are. How many times Vegeta ran his mouth and ended up with broken limbs kissing the floor?

It's never outright played for laughs like Yamcha's defeats are (headbutt to the nuts, anyone?).

Unless you mean Tournament fights in the Finals, which is already covered, that is wrong.

Name one major fight he wins in the manga without help. Nameless Budokai fodder doesn't count.

There`s no loss with the nonsentical explanation Toryama made up in order to have another Saiyan around. They broke up, he was finding poontang somewhere else and still ends up living in the same house as she does. Guy snatched a nice deal, stealing those two with the freeloading for life.

Not seeing how that invalidates the whole "lost his girlfriend to a psychopath that killed him" thing.

Who are these "normal assholes", that you speak of? I think I missed that.

He used his superpowers to play baseball.

Who is this MOOK you speak of? The one MOOK Nappa adressed as being as strong as Raditz and that could also have killed Tenshinhan if Vegeta didn`t have a pride fit?

No, the one mook that was weaker than Raditz (just like Yamcha) and was a mass produced, nameless, faceless piece of fodder that even Krillin could effortlessly one-shot.

I thought it was something grand by how serious he seems with the stance. That`s in simple terms, the justification Toryama came up with to include Trunks in the story, nothing new. Where`s the open mocking I paid for?

And then there's the fact the baseball gig is filler. But if you do want to count that, how is that in the negative column? That makes him one of the few characters in the series to actually get off his butt and get a freaking job rather than mooching off others for his entire life.

Funny, given how the other guy presented him being a leech as a good thing.

Anyway, this isn't exactly true, it pretty much only applies to Vegeta and maybe Krillin. Goku and his family are quite frugal, get what they can from the land, and have a bunch of savings (i.e. Ox-King's fortune and Goku's prize money) to live off of. Teshinhan and Chiaotzu have a farm. Piccolo doesn't mooch because he only drinks water, never does anything except train, and doesn't appear to live anywhere. Gohan is a scholar. Mister Satan is a... athlete, I guess, with a business empire, as well as a tournament winner. Et cetera.

I wouldn't even say Krillin and his wife mooch, really- they do live at Roshi's house, but apparently 18 is now a millionaire due to a deal with Mr. Satan. I wouldn't exactly define that as mooching off of him, it was a mutually beneficial arrangement.

[Kid Buu]

Do Boss Rabbits men count as a major victory? Granted, they are just henchmen, but he did save Goku there.

[Gaffer Tape]

I'm starting to get a feeling that nothing counts if it's something that actually happens to refute his argument.

It said they were in the same league as Raditz, not that they were just as powerful.

Actually, Nappa's line (as translated by Simmons) was, "They're on par with Raditz, as far as power goes."

[Fionordequester]

He trained in the mountains for 6 months to a year (he also had to train Gohan). Yamcha got godly training with god himself and a bunch of equal and useful sparring partners. Not seeing how Piccolo's training wasn't inferior.

Oh, and while Piccolo did start out ahead, the gap between him and the humans just grew over the year, despite his inferior training.

Yeah, but Piccolo, being the split half of Kami, probably had just as much knowledge and know-how as Kami did when it came to training. Plus, he had basically the perfect sparring partner in himself, since he could make clones and stuff.

He used his superpowers to play baseball.

So? He earned those super powers through hard work and dedication. As far as I'm concerned, he has every right to use the fruits of his training however he wants to.

[RandomGuy96]

Boss Rabbit's men don't count. One, they're mooks. Two, Goku weakened them first.

I don't think this is unreasonable: one major victory he won on his own in the manga. Aside from Chiaotzu, assuming he counts, every other main fighter can claim to have done this.

I wasn't giving the exact line, just a summary basically. And Herms has it as them RIVALING Raditz, i.e. being in the same league.

[Kid Buu]

Well Goku did beat them up first, but they seem back to normal health by the time Boss Rabbit arrives. Despite being fodder, beating them did save the main character.

In agreement that of all the main fighters have a Battle Record outside of Chaozu. Well, I guess it could be argued who has a better record between him and Yajirobe, but the latter has way less battles and lost less. Yamcha does have a better battle record than Chichi and Goten/Gotenks, but bleh, too unimportant to count in my opinion.

[RandomGuy96]

Well Goku did beat them up first, but they seem back to normal health by the time Boss Rabbit arrives. Despite being fodder, beating them did save the main character.

In agreement that of all the main fighters have a Battle Record outside of Chaozu. Well, I guess it could be argued who has a better record between him and Yajirobe, but the latter has way less battles and lost less. Yamcha does have a better battle record than Chichi and Goten/Gotenks, but bleh, too unimportant to count in my opinion.

Well, it's debatable if they were really 100% when Yamcha pwned them, and since they're not named and are essentially faceless, I have a hard time counting it as a "major" victory.

I'd say Yajirobe has a better record; he drew against Goku, easily defeated Cymbal (I'd count this as a major victory, since Cymbal was a named henchman who was around for more than one chapter, and also because he's the only non-Goku/non-villain to score a victory in this arc), lost easily against Kami (just like Yamcha), and was a vital part of the team effort against a super-powerful Oozaru villain (kinda like Yamcha). So , one curbstomp loss, one draw, one curbstomp victory. In contrast to Yamcha, who is almost entirely curbstomp losses, with a few draws thrown in (except Invisible Man, but that was a team effort anyway, soooo...).

Maybe Goten does too, if the 2008 special is counted as manga material (since it has a manga and all). One loss (barley) against Trunks, one easy win against Kado, and that's pretty much it. I don't really count Gotenks either, since he's a bit character and only has one "real" fight.

[Kid Buu]

I'd say Yajirobe has a better record; he drew against Goku, easily defeated Cymbal (I'd count this as a major victory, since Cymbal was a named henchman who was around for more than one chapter, and also because he's the only non-Goku/non-villain to score a victory in this arc), lost easily against Kami (just like Yamcha), and was a vital part of the team effort against a super-powerful Oozaru villain (kinda like Yamcha). So , one curbstomp loss, one draw, one curbstomp victory. In contrast to Yamcha, who is almost entirely curbstomp losses, with a few draws thrown in (except Invisible Man, but that was a team effort anyway, soooo...).

Maybe Goten does too, if the 2008 special is counted as manga material (since it has a manga and all). One loss (barley) against Trunks, one easy win against Kado, and that's pretty much it. I don't really count Gotenks either, since he's a bit character and only has one "real" fight.

I don't recall him tying against Goku; I just remember fighting evenly until Cymbal interrupted the fight. Goku and Yamcha actually do tie, although that is a weird match to give an outcome to as both fighters lose their will to fight due to external factors (hunger/Bulma). Yajirobe at least seemed to be in Goku's strength range back then though, where as Yamcha only might have had that status in DB Movie #4. They both have an Oozaru team-effort victory, but I think I'd give Yamcha more credit for the Kami fight as he actually did land a hit on him even if Kami did easily beat both. In agreement that Cymbal should be a more prestigious victory than The Invisible Man. Even though it was clear Yamcha could have won had Baba not interfered, it was still a team effort. So for this, I'll agree with Yajirobe having the better battle record now that I think about it.

Saiga mentioned on Facebook chat that the 2008 OVA as a manga. Is that official or fan-made? Well, if we are just going by the official manga than yeah Yamcha has the better record. As I said though, I don't really count him. The only person who I'd put Yamcha above, if just going by Toriyama's manga alone, is Chaozu.