"Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (incl. "DB Minus")

[Hellspawn28]

Just caught up with everything because I've been very busy. I guess fans can finally shut up about the Bardock TV special now being canon or not the manga. I don't mind this retcon since AT really had nothing to do with TV special other then character designs. The TV special was pretty much a Toei creation and Bardock was lucky enough to be added into the manga.

[Luso Saiyan]

It does conflict with the concept of time travel and SSj requirements and Bardock's characterization..

How?

[Hellspawn28]

I find it funny that people are upset that the TV special can't be canon to the manga now. No one was upset when the Trunks TV special is not canon to the manga since both were different from each other.

[Luso Saiyan]

I find it funny that people are upset that the TV special can't be canon to the manga now. No one was upset when the Trunks TV special is not canon to the manga since both were different from each other.

Then again, it wasn't the Trunks special that Toriyama was impressed by and liked enough to incorporate into the manga.

[Marco Polo]

JSAT 2008 Special

Maybe. It might fall into the same category as the Bardock TV special where people just assume it falls into this Toriyama continuity because of the fact that a character exists is mentioned. I mean for it to work you sorta have to ignore that Gregory is even there.

Gregory isn't in the manga version of the JSAT special.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I think the DBO storyline could work if it were to overlap GT and incorporate BoG. If it were to be a story about the sayians finally all dying out and the mystery was to look for fighters that might have decended. Then they can create a SSJGod legacy and put SSJ away for the timeline.

DBO worked in the manga continuity, until BoG, Jaco, and eventually DB- came and retconned the TV Special. Or at least, a specific story quest from DBO doesn't work, which isn't important or connected with the main story, so it can be ignored (you go back in time and find baby Goku). So, you could ignore only that and move on, but my point was, don't expect whatever new that is to come out to try to fit with DBO, they will definitely ignore it.

Then again, it wasn't the Trunks special that Toriyama was impressed by and liked enough to incorporate into the manga.

No, that was the Bardock special. Toriyama first made the Trunks special in the manga, and then it turned into an anime special.

Gregory isn't in the manga version of the JSAT special.

He is in one panel. But he wasn't important, so you could ignore it and take it as a cameo or something.

JSAT 2008 Special

Maybe. It might fall into the same category as the Bardock TV special where people just assume it falls into this Toriyama continuity because of the fact that a character exists is mentioned. I mean for it to work you sorta have to ignore that Gregory is even there.

That's true, the JSAT didn't necessarily happen. Vegeta could have told Bulma "you know, I have a brother in space".

[Luso Saiyan]

No, that was the Bardock special.

I know, that's the point I was making. He was comparing it to the Trunks special as if the situation was the same.

[Herms]

No, that was the Bardock special.

I know, that's the point I was making. He was comparing it to the Trunks special as if the situation was the same.

It is slightly different in that Bardock originated in the TV special in the first place. So Toriyama saw the Bardock TV special, liked it enough to insert Bardock into the manga, then eventually wrote a manga special with Bardock that completely contradicts the TV special. That's...I don't know, amusing if nothing else.

[xmysticgohanx]

Toriyama is going to retcon the JSAT with a different Tarble story I'm calling it now

[JeffJarrett]

A retcon written that much years after the main series ended can't be considered canon. It wasn't created with the same spirit the series had at the time, same with the JSAT and BoG. Something makes them different than the 1990s DB meterial.

[Hellspawn28]

I think AT views the Toei stuff as a AU which is why he never mention Coola when he talked about Freeza's family and why DBO ignores the events of GT. We could say that the Bardock TV special is canon to the anime and not the manga.

[Ajay]

A retcon written that much years after the main series ended can't be considered canon. It wasn't created with the same spirit the series had at the time, same with the JSAT and BoG. Something makes them different than the 1990s DB meterial.

That's interesting you say that. I always felt like Battle of Gods and JSAT felt very much like a natural evolution of the Boo arc's tone and style. I do agree that DB- is totally out of place in both tone and content but I definitely wouldn't say the same about the aforementioned.

[MagicBox]

In anime only filler, yes. But not in the Jaco manga or the original DB manga. All that Roshi says is that baby Goku was "wild" he doesn't say "violent" or "hostile". In the Jaco manga all we see is that little kid Goku had no manners, he ate all the food, and he broke a plate. We don't see him becoming aggressive or attacking Grandpa Gohan.

In Jaco, Gohan mentions that Goku "caused a ruckus." He also comments on Goku's incredible strength, saying that he would have been in trouble if he weren't already an experienced martial artist. All of this implies that Goku either attacked Gohan or created a situation in which Gohan had to subdue him in some way.

A retcon written that much years after the main series ended can't be considered canon. It wasn't created with the same spirit the series had at the time, same with the JSAT and BoG. Something makes them different than the 1990s DB meterial.

Allow me to beat this dead horse once again and say that I'm still not exactly sure how this can be considered a retcon. In order for it to be considered a retcon, previously established facts have to be altered within the work. Toriyama's manga never once tells us about Goku's parents or his departure from Planet Vegeta. Dragon Ball Minus gives us all-new information. In order to be upset about the manga contradicting an anime-only story, then that would mean you'd have to consider the events of the manga and the anime to all be in the same "timeline" or "canon" or whatever. And if that's the case, then so many other inconsistencies pop up to the point where I'm surprised you'd even be picky about inconsistencies at all.

To me, at least, this is like getting upset at Toriyama for "retconning" Dr. Frappe out of existence and "replacing" him with Dr. Gero.

[B]

It does conflict with the concept of time travel and SSj requirements and Bardock's characterization.. basically everything but Chilled didnt make sense.

Bardock has no characterization in the manga proper.
What is the "concept of time travel" anyway? Bardock somehow goes back in time... and that's it. Nothing that happens in EoB actually has an effect on the series. It teases and entertains the idea that Bardock was the Legendary Super Saiyan, but it's only that; a tease and nothing explicit. My "head canon" is that Bardock dies of old age(or gets killed in battle) a billion years prior to anything important in the series actually happening. It's the epitome of the term "side story." If you're trying to say that time travel in Dragon Ball always creates a new timeline/history, isn't that more in support of EoB? If it happened in a completely separate dimension from Timeline 3/the manga?
I honestly don't recall any "requirements" for achieving Super Saiyan, so if anyone wants to pull direct quotes from characters, or guidebook information, I'm all ears.

[TKA]

I don't really see a reason to be angry about this. Just disregard it if you don't like it (which is pretty much what I've done) and keep the Bardock special as your canon.

It is rather baffling, however, that even though we have so much longstanding "canon" Toriyama would seemingly go out of his way to contradict it. Even in the recent Battle of the Gods Planet Vegeta did not look like a dwelling for cavemen. Oh well.

[Mewzard]

It's not Toriyama's job to uphold anything that happened in animated adaptations of his work, or original stories based on his work, nor should he be forced to keep filler appearances of stuff like Vegeta.

Frankly, I'm all for Toriyama completely ignoring that stuff and doing his own thing. It's more interesting than the guy just adapting pre-existing filler and movies/TV specials with his own artstyle.

I've never considered the Bardock Special canon even when it was the only detailed release of the period and Toriyama drew a panel or two to reference it. Outside of those panels, I considered nothing from the special as having happened the way it did anyways, so it is amusing to see that view somewhat validated. I didn't need it too, I just stuck with the "Source Material/from creator work" to be canon, and everything else to be side stuff for fun. That view works for me. I can enjoy anime adaptations and movies along with the manga, but I always solely bring up stuff from the creator when it comes to discussions of story, feats, and stuff like that which doesn't specify anime/movies/etc.

[Hellspawn28]

It's not Toriyama's job to uphold anything that happened in animated adaptations of his work, or original stories based on his work, nor should he be forced to keep filler appearances of stuff like Vegeta.

Frankly, I'm all for Toriyama completely ignoring that stuff and doing his own thing. It's more interesting than the guy just adapting pre-existing filler and movies/TV specials with his own artstyle.

I've never considered the Bardock Special canon even when it was the only detailed release of the period and Toriyama drew a panel or two to reference it. Outside of those panels, I considered nothing from the special as having happened the way it did anyways, so it is amusing to see that view somewhat validated. I didn't need it too, I just stuck with the "Source Material/from creator work" to be canon, and everything else to be side stuff for fun. That view works for me. I can enjoy anime adaptations and movies along with the manga, but I always solely bring up stuff from the creator when it comes to discussions of story, feats, and stuff like that which doesn't specify anime/movies/etc.

I agree with this post. The Bardock TV special still exist and you can still enjoy it. It's not it's gone magically forever or anything. Even if it's not canon, you can still like it. I enjoy Let's Go Kamen Riders and that movie is not canon to Kamen Rider OOO in any way or form.

A retcon written that much years after the main series ended can't be considered canon. It wasn't created with the same spirit the series had at the time, same with the JSAT and BoG. Something makes them different than the 1990s DB meterial.

Not true. There's franchises with new stuff coming out and they can be view as canon. The Alien franchise ended after 1997 and Prometheus give us new stuff in the Alien universe.

[Mewzard]

A retcon written that much years after the main series ended can't be considered canon. It wasn't created with the same spirit the series had at the time, same with the JSAT and BoG. Something makes them different than the 1990s DB meterial.

Yeah, that's not true, it can very well be considered canon (and given Toriyama was the creator, I'd argue that expressly makes it canon, since Shueisha isn't trying to make their own separate canon; this isn't DC or Marvel where current writers make the canon since the company decides what happens to it).

Saint Seiya's original manga went on from 1986-1991, yet we've got a canon sequel from the creator (Saint Seiya: Next Dimension *2006-*) along with some fan-created (yet sanctioned) spin-offs.

Greg Weisman went back to Gargoyles (1994-1997) in comic form (2006-2009), retconned Season 3 (The Goliath Chronicles) out of existence and continued the story. I'd say his comic continuation is canon (it's certainly better than the Goliath Chronicles...).

If the creator wants to return to his work years later and either continue it, or add bits to the story...I'd argue it's canon. You can not like it, that's fair. But I'd say they have a valid right to continue it if they so choose.

[auspx]

It does conflict with the concept of time travel and SSj requirements and Bardock's characterization.. basically everything but Chilled didnt make sense.

Bardock has no characterization in the manga proper.
What is the "concept of time travel" anyway? Bardock somehow goes back in time... and that's it. Nothing that happens in EoB actually has an effect on the series. It teases and entertains the idea that Bardock was the Legendary Super Saiyan, but it's only that; a tease and nothing explicit. My "head canon" is that Bardock dies of old age(or gets killed in battle) a billion years prior to anything important in the series actually happening. It's the epitome of the term "side story." If you're trying to say that time travel in Dragon Ball always creates a new timeline/history, isn't that more in support of EoB? If it happened in a completely separate dimension from Timeline 3/the manga?
I honestly don't recall any "requirements" for achieving Super Saiyan, so if anyone wants to pull direct quotes from characters, or guidebook information, I'm all ears.

The main problem with Bardock's SSJ transformation in EoB is that it contradicts almost everything we saw in the manga. Akira Toriyama said it himself, Bardock was a low-class warrior and he isn't even able to become a mid-class warrior. Bardock is weaker than Nappa.

If it's possible for Bardock to turn SSJ just because he got his ass kicked by Chilled, then why didn't Gohan turn SSJ when he saw Piccolo die in front of him? Why didn't Goku turn SSJ when he was being crushed nearly to death by Oozaru Vegeta? Gohan (PL 2800 while fighting Nappa) may have been as strong or even stronger than Bardock. Goku (base PL "over 8000" while fighting Vegeta) was definitely much stronger than Bardock. Hell, Goku was probably already strong enough to be considered an elite warrior. Why didn't Vegeta and Gohan turn SSJ when Reacoom was kicking their asses? Why didn't Gohan turn SSJ when he was being beaten up by Freeza? Why didn't Vegeta turn SSJ when he was being beaten to death by Freeza?

I don't know if there's some "requirement" for the SSJ transformation but it can't be simply because "he got beaten up and he got really mad about it" which is what we saw in EoB. It has to be more to it than that.

[RandomGuy96]

The main problem with Bardock's SSJ transformation in EoB is that it contradicts almost everything we saw in the manga. Akira Toriyama said it himself, Bardock was a low-class warrior and he isn't even able to become a mid-class warrior. Bardock is weaker than Nappa.

So? He's still both above the saiyan standard AND had a tranquil heart awaken by intense rage (at least EOB Bardock, where he was reflecting on how he couldn't save his team). That's all it takes to become a SS.

If it's possible for Bardock to turn SSJ just because he got his ass kicked by Chilled, then why didn't Gohan turn SSJ when he saw Piccolo die in front of him?

He wasn't strong enough. He was only 981 without rage boosts. Gohan, being apparently a completely unique hybrid unlike even the other ones (i.e. the tail and the rage boosts) may just have different requirements.

? Why didn't Goku turn SSJ when he was being crushed nearly to death by Oozaru Vegeta?

That's not the same thing as what triggered the transformation.

Gohan (PL 2800 while fighting Nappa) may have been as strong or even stronger than Bardock

That wasn't his normal strength.

Goku (base PL "over 8000" while fighting Vegeta) was definitely much stronger than Bardock. Hell, Goku was probably already strong enough to be considered an elite warrior.

Again, he didn't fit the emotional requirements.

Also, if you wanna get technical, Bardock could have been stronger in EOB than he was in the main manga that Toriyama is referring to due to the zenkai boost.

Why didn't Vegeta and Gohan turn SSJ when Reacoom was kicking their asses?Why didn't Gohan turn SSJ when he was being beaten up by Freeza? Why didn't Vegeta turn SSJ when he was being beaten to death by Freeza?

Again, didn't fulfill the requirements. Vegeta didn't have a tranquil heart, and Gohan was defiant, not enraged. Again, he also might have different requirements, as he seems to be a unique specimen compared to every other saiyan we've seen. Freeza even specifically pointed out that Vegeta couldn't become a SS because he lacked a tranquil heart.

I don't know if there's some "requirement" for the SSJ transformation but it can't be simply because "he got beaten up and he got really mad about it" which is what we saw in EoB. It has to be more to it than that.

I just listed the requirements as stated in the guidebooks, and Bardock fits.