Confused about the Mastered Super Saiyan.

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Bullza
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Re: Confused about the Mastered Super Saiyan.

Post by Bullza » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:07 pm

Because his hair aren't tied.


Uhh I think that's overthinking the reason. His hair was nothing like the USSJ style when he fough Cell in the future. Even if his hair was a bit shorter it wouldn't have resembled it anyway.
The difference between SS, SSG2, and SSG3 is very obvious.


The ASSJ isn't that different from the regular SSJ and like I said these were images from a distance and Toriyama isn't a consistent artist so that Vegeta not being 10% bigger in a image doesn't mean anything.
The anime can be very inconsistent some times. SS2 Goku had his SS hairstyle some times during his fight with Vegeta.


That was at times and the hairstyle is hardly that different that it looking like his SSJ1 hairstyle is inevitable. Here though it was clearly made out visually and consistently the form that they were using.
The difference between SS, SSG2, and SSG3 is very obvious.


Again these aura's don't really look all that different and you'd be giving Toriyama too much credit to think he'd draw an aura in a specific way in order to portray a specific grade of the SSJ. They got a lot stronger due a years worth of extra training but even then Vegeta said Goku was better than him and had no chance against Cell.

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Re: Confused about the Mastered Super Saiyan.

Post by Super Vegetto » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:16 pm

Kaboom wrote:
Super Vegetto wrote:But mastered SSJ isn't official name and it basicly means controling 50x destructive power like if it's natural base,excluding anime episodes where Gohan can't control his powers yet, but is in right way.
Full Power SSJ in other hand is official name, and there must be a reason behind naming it Full Power of Super Saiyan form...
Honestly? Given the context of the picture used and the description within Daizenshuu #2... I think it's only called "full power" because it refers to when Goku finally went up to 100% against Cell after being chill and suppressed for the past 10 days. Which fits with how it's labeled as appearing only in Volume 34 and onward (34 starting with Goku's match with Cell), while he first emerged from the RoSaT halfway through 33.

Also, even though we know Gohan did the same thing, he's only labeled as "Super Saiyan" within the same guide.
Super Vegetto wrote:Also some guide names FPSSJ a Grade 4, which means that it should also be superior to normal SSJ in power...
Going merely by that label, I guess you might find it implied... But reading carefully through that old guide's info as translated by Herms, it doesn't actually label 'Grade 4' as being stronger than the others or granting more power in and of itself. It just talks about how it comes more naturally and is easy to use.

It's called FPSSJ beccause it is what it means. Goku managed to control his enormeous boost of power and act natural with it. Pushing it beyond he achived Full power of SSJ.

Gohan's case is different. He's only labeled as Super Saiyan because the pictue that stands next to it is actualy showing only SSJ Gohan (before he powered up to full power), not FPSSJ Gohan like with Goku's picture (which is FPSSJ Goku in picture)...

Yeah i guess that grade 4 doesn't explain powering up to full power without drawbacks or it's strenght...

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Re: Confused about the Mastered Super Saiyan.

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:06 pm

I don't know if I missed this when reading through this thread, but who do you think is more powerful between SSJ Trunks/Vegeta grade 3 and SSJ Goku post rosat setting the speed issue aside?

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Re: Confused about the Mastered Super Saiyan.

Post by mAcChaos » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:13 pm

The energy drain for SSJ is like a tax. We never see the full power of SSJ used until Goku and Gohan master it.

When Goku fought Freeza on Namek, the SSJ boost was still 50x, but a lot more of it went into maintaining upkeep on the form rather than using it to fight.

And when Vegeta had the ascended SSJ the total amount of power might have been higher, but the drain was much more severe.

So think of it as something like:

SSJ (on Namek): 20 units of power, 10 of it used to maintain form, so only 10 left for fighting.

Ascended SSJ: 30 units of power, 15 used to maintain form, 15 for fighting.

Mastered SSJ: 20 units of power, no upkeep, so 20 available for fighting.
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Re: Confused about the Mastered Super Saiyan.

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:43 pm

Bullza wrote:Uhh I think that's overthinking the reason. His hair was nothing like the USSJ style when he fough Cell in the future. Even if his hair was a bit shorter it wouldn't have resembled it anyway.
His hair in the future were a lot shorter. His hair when he was a SS & SSG2 against Cell were literally tied. They couldn't spread because they were tied. When he transformed into a SSG3, his hair were released. In the Cell Games, Trunks still had the same long hair, but they weren't tied.

The ASSJ isn't that different from the regular SSJ and like I said these were images from a distance and Toriyama isn't a consistent artist so that Vegeta not being 10% bigger in a image doesn't mean anything.
Do you have an image that proves that Vegeta & Trunks are SSG2 & SSG3 respectively?

Besides, it doesn't make sense for them to use these forms. Vegeta agreed with Goku that mastering SS was better than SSG2, and SSG3 was shown to be useless in hand-to-hand combat. They have already abandoned these forms.

That was at times and the hairstyle is hardly that different that it looking like his SSJ1 hairstyle is inevitable. Here though it was clearly made out visually and consistently the form that they were using.
Goku's hairstyle randomly switches from SS2 to SS. That's not consistency.
Again these aura's don't really look all that different and you'd be giving Toriyama too much credit to think he'd draw an aura in a specific way in order to portray a specific grade of the SSJ. They got a lot stronger due a years worth of extra training but even then Vegeta said Goku was better than him and had no chance against Cell.
Can you prove me that the standing auras are inconsistent? Every SS form has its own aura, with SSFP having 2 auras, the regular SS and its own new aura.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Confused about the Mastered Super Saiyan.

Post by Blade » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:52 am

It's all about efficiency and usability.

Think of Super Saiyan as a sports car that can hit 200 miles per hour, but burns fuel quickly, causes strain on its engine components and loses energy unnecessarily through heat. Think of Mastered Super Saiyan as the same car, also capable of hitting 200 miles per hour, but capable of doing so for much longer due to less component strain and wasted energy.
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Re: Confused about the Mastered Super Saiyan.

Post by gojirason » Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:33 pm

Blade wrote:It's all about efficiency and usability.

Think of Super Saiyan as a sports car that can hit 200 miles per hour, but burns fuel quickly, causes strain on its engine components and loses energy unnecessarily through heat. Think of Mastered Super Saiyan as the same car, also capable of hitting 200 miles per hour, but capable of doing so for much longer due to less component strain and wasted energy.
The issue I have with this analogy is that it doesn't address the problem with fighting against a guy who can regenerate and utilizes the infinite power generators of the androids. =/

They don't need more stamina they need more power. Dragging out a fight with Cell is begging to lose, the only thing worse would be dragging out a fight with Buu, and only by so much. What Goku had that shocked everyone on the lookout was power. What made SSJ2 better, and apparently able to take more "damage" and therefore have better stamina, was power. What SSJ3 had that made it better despite horrible stamina issues was power.

SSJ Full Power is not better because it can drag out fights, and that's not what is implied by it's very name, description, appearance and reactions from the characters. I'm not really sure what it's based on at all beyond a multiplier further than 50x never being stated, but that doesn't actually rule it out, either.

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Re: Confused about the Mastered Super Saiyan.

Post by Blade » Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:30 am

gojirason wrote:
Blade wrote:It's all about efficiency and usability.

Think of Super Saiyan as a sports car that can hit 200 miles per hour, but burns fuel quickly, causes strain on its engine components and loses energy unnecessarily through heat. Think of Mastered Super Saiyan as the same car, also capable of hitting 200 miles per hour, but capable of doing so for much longer due to less component strain and wasted energy.
The issue I have with this analogy is that it doesn't address the problem with fighting against a guy who can regenerate and utilizes the infinite power generators of the androids. =/

They don't need more stamina they need more power. Dragging out a fight with Cell is begging to lose, the only thing worse would be dragging out a fight with Buu, and only by so much. What Goku had that shocked everyone on the lookout was power. What made SSJ2 better, and apparently able to take more "damage" and therefore have better stamina, was power. What SSJ3 had that made it better despite horrible stamina issues was power.

SSJ Full Power is not better because it can drag out fights, and that's not what is implied by it's very name, description, appearance and reactions from the characters. I'm not really sure what it's based on at all beyond a multiplier further than 50x never being stated, but that doesn't actually rule it out, either.
Well I dunno, remember that Super Saiyan provides a power that is a multipe of a base strength. There's nothing to say that Goku's base power didn't increase dramatically during his training (and perhaps from the Zenkai effects of surviving a near-fatal illness).

If, for example, his base strength was 1 when he entered the ROSAT and his maximum strength as a Super Saiyan was therefore 50 due to the multiplier, but his stable battle power was somewhere around 35 due to not fully mastering the form, and his base strength were to increase by 50% from training to 1.5, his new stable power as a 'mastered' Super Saiyan would be 75 - which on the face of it is still a massive increase.

To Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo et all, having only experienced his stable battle power as a Super Saiyan at around the 35 mark, he would appear as over twice as powerful, which is incredibly significant. That's without factoring in that when they saw him fight against #19, they were seeing him somewhat below par due to his illness - but for Trunks and Vegeta at least, that will have still have been the best and most recent estimate they had of his strength.

All of that said, I think my analogy still holds water.
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Re: Confused about the Mastered Super Saiyan.

Post by gojirason » Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:47 pm

Blade wrote:If, for example, his base strength was 1 when he entered the ROSAT and his maximum strength as a Super Saiyan was therefore 50 due to the multiplier, but his stable battle power was somewhere around 35 due to not fully mastering the form, and his base strength were to increase by 50% from training to 1.5, his new stable power as a 'mastered' Super Saiyan would be 75 - which on the face of it is still a massive increase.
I have no issues with this, but the fact is that going from 35/50 to 50/50 is an increase in available power, and not comparable to an analogy of two cars going the same speed before and after with one having better gas mileage. It's more akin to one car hitting 200 mph and another hitting 300 for the same amount of gas.

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