Bardock TV Special vs Dragon Ball Minus

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This is exactly why I wouldn't rely too much on these guidebooks for information.

It's much better to rely on whatever you can pull from your bunghole, I agree.

The assertion that kid Goku had a PL of 10, with no proof whatsoever, is indeed something that someone pulled right out of their ass.
And it's much better to rely on the manga for information, not silly fan theories.

[RandomGuy96]

No, that's impossible. Kid Goku can't be only twice as powerful as that Farmer (PL 5) from DBZ. A professional athlete might have a PL of 10, Mr. Satan and Videl might have a PL between 10 to 15 and none of these people can do what Goku was doing in the very beginning of DB.

You are assuming power levels are linear, and that someone with a battle power of 10 is just twice as strong, fast, etc. as someone with a battle power of 5. The series plainly shows this to be wrong. Many times.

And Goku was doing this before any real martial arts training, and long before he learned to control his ki. You can't compare that to charged ki blasts (i.e. Master Roshi and Piccolo blowing up the moon). It's not the same thing.
This is exactly why I wouldn't rely too much on these guidebooks for information.

Yeah, I can actually. Piccolo at 408 can casually flick his wrist and blow up the moon. Goku can sit there and take Piccolo's strongest ki attack head on, even as the island around him is obliterated. King Piccolo, who is stronger than Roshi at 139, and thus not many times weaker than Piccolo, can only destroy a city, which is trillions of times less impressive than destroying the moon. Raditz took a less-than-casual blast from Piccolo with no harm at all, then proceeded to pound him with his bare hands. Yet those guys were only 80-300 times stronger than a regular human? Goku at 8,000 could fly 1,000,000 km in less than a day, even though that would only make him 1600 times faster than a fat farmer. Wow, this is all a load of BS, the manga is obviously wrong, I wouldn't rely on it too much for information.

The assertion that kid Goku had a PL of 10, with no proof whatsoever, is indeed something that someone pulled right out of their ass.
And it's much better to rely on the manga for information, not silly fan theories.

And the manga never says that he can't be 10, and goes out of its way to show that power levels are not linear. Repeatedly.

Also, you seem to be incapable of looking at anything other than just a set of numbers. Even if Goku only had twice as much ki as the farmer (which isn't true), he still would've been much physically stronger on part of being an alien that is meant to survive in x10 Earth's gravity. Battle power is a measurement of ki, it has nothing to do with physical strength.

You mean silly fan theories like what you're spouting right now?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Battle powers are a measure ki and ki alone. It's perfectly fine for Goku to have a ki that is only twice that of a noral human, but be 2, 3, 4, 5 or however many times stronger than the average human in purely physical attributes.

[Herms]

And she was the only woman in Bardock's team.

Except that's pretty much the exact reason Selypa could not possibly be Goku's mother. Because her entire role in the TV special is to be right there along with Bardock a million billion miles away from newborn Goku, asking Bardock "hey, why not head home and meet that newborn son of yours?" In other words, Goku has been born while Bardock has been on Kanassa, and so Bardock has not yet even met his son. Since Selypa is part of Bardock's team, she too has presumably been on Kanassa while Goku was born, and has likewise never met Goku, which really should eliminate her from the list of potential candidates to be Goku's mother, unless Saiyan pregnancy truly works in mysterious ways.

Maybe you could say Bardock's been on Kanassa the whole time while Selypa only arrived recently after giving birth to Goku, but... her dialogue gives no indication of this, or any indication that Bardock's son is her son as well, or anything like that. Overall everything Selypa says or does in the special is completely incompatible with the idea that she's Goku's mother, unless she's actively covering up her relationship to Goku. Also, while the special never does specify exactly how much time passes between Goku's birth and the stuff on Kanassa, the way the scenes transition it really doesn't seem to be much time at all. As in, the same day or just about. The idea that between the scene with baby Goku and the swift cut to the Kanassa scene Selypa has to recover from giving birth, suit up, head to Kanassa, reunite with Bardock et al, go Oozaru and start kicking Kanassaian ass is amusing, to say the least.

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You are assuming power levels are linear, and that someone with a battle power of 10 is just twice as strong, fast, etc. as someone with a battle power of 5. The series plainly shows this to be wrong. Many times.

That's not the point. The point is that other characters who might have a PL of 10 or even more, and Mr. Satan and Videl are a great example of this, can't do what kid Goku was doing in the very beginning of DragonBall. They can't tank bullets, they can't lift and throw cars, and they can't crush giant rocks with their bare hands. The only logical conclusion here is that kid Goku's PL was much higher than 10.

For the most part someone with a PL of 10 is indeed stronger and faster than someone with a PL of 5 just like someone with a PL of 10,000 is stronger and faster than someone with a PL of 5000. No power levels were shown or mentioned after the Freeza saga. And we don't even know for sure if Freeza was telling the truth about his own PL in his 1st form being 530,000 and over 1,000,000 in his 2nd form since we never saw their scouters measure anything over 180,000. For all we know Freeza may have been lying or just estimating how powerful he was since he can't sense ki. But that's a whole other can of worms.

[RandomGuy96]

That's not the point. The point is that other characters who might have a PL of 10 or even more, and Mr. Satan and Videl are a great example of this, can't do what kid Goku was doing in the very beginning of DragonBall. They can't tank bullets, they can't lift and throw cars, and they can't crush giant rocks with their bare hands. The only logical conclusion here is that kid Goku's PL was much higher than 10.

Proof they have power levels even close to 10?

For the most part someone with a PL of 10 is indeed stronger and faster than someone with a PL of 5 just like someone with a PL of 10,000 is stronger and faster than someone with a PL of 5000. No power levels were shown or mentioned after the Freeza saga. And we don't even know for sure if Freeza was telling the truth about his own PL in his 1st form being 530,000 and over 1,000,000 in his 2nd form since we never saw their scouters measure anything over 180,000. For all we know Freeza may have been lying or just estimating how powerful he was since he can't sense ki. But that's a whole other can of worms.

Of course. But them literally be twice as strong, fast, etc. is never suggested anywhere, and repeatedly shown to NOT be the case. Unless you think all it takes to blow up a planet is 3600 humans.

And yes, we do, because Toriyama isn't a complicated author, and the guidebooks confirm Freeza was right anyway.

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And she was the only woman in Bardock's team.

Except that's pretty much the exact reason Selypa could not possibly be Goku's mother. Because her entire role in the TV special is to be right there along with Bardock a million billion miles away from newborn Goku, asking Bardock "hey, why not head home and meet that newborn son of yours?" In other words, Goku has been born while Bardock has been on Kanassa, and so Bardock has not yet even met his son. Since Selypa is part of Bardock's team, she too has presumably been on Kanassa while Goku was born, and has likewise never met Goku, which really should eliminate her from the list of potential candidates to be Goku's mother, unless Saiyan pregnancy truly works in mysterious ways.

Maybe you could say Bardock's been on Kanassa the whole time while Selypa only arrived recently after giving birth to Goku, but... her dialogue gives no indication of this, or any indication that Bardock's son is her son as well, or anything like that. Overall everything Selypa says or does in the special is completely incompatible with the idea that she's Goku's mother, unless she's actively covering up her relationship to Goku. Also, while the special never does specify exactly how much time passes between Goku's birth and the stuff on Kanassa, the way the scenes transition it really doesn't seem to be much time at all. As in, the same day or just about. The idea that between the scene with baby Goku and the swift cut to the Kanassa scene Selypa has to recover from giving birth, suit up, head to Kanassa, reunite with Bardock et al, go Oozaru and start kicking Kanassaian ass is amusing, to say the least.

Please read what I actually wrote before replying.

"Toriyama could have changed literally one line of dialogue from that movie to make it work. Instead of "your son was born yesterday" to "our son was born a week ago" and it could work. It would make so much more sense than to have a barbarian like Bardock "fall in love" with a weak, useless woman like Gine and then have kids with her."

I am aware that she can't be Goku's mother in the actual storyline of the Bardock TV Special. My entire point was that it would be better to change the story of that movie just a little bit to make Seripa the mother of Goku and Raditz than to create a ton of plot holes that is DB Minus.

[Herms]

They'd have to do much more than just change one line of dialogue. They'd have to change the entire opening of the TV special so that it doesn't go straight from Goku's birth to Selypa off on the other side of the universe busy blowing stuff up.

Of course, the fact that the one line of dialogue you want changed also happens to be practically Selypa's only dialogue in the entire movie highlights another problem. If we're hypothetically changing the TV special so that Selypa is Goku's mother, we'd probably need to change it so that Selypa is actually an important character. Or at least more important than Toteppo.

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That's not the point. The point is that other characters who might have a PL of 10 or even more, and Mr. Satan and Videl are a great example of this, can't do what kid Goku was doing in the very beginning of DragonBall. They can't tank bullets, they can't lift and throw cars, and they can't crush giant rocks with their bare hands. The only logical conclusion here is that kid Goku's PL was much higher than 10.

Proof they have power levels even close to 10?

They probably have much more. They certainly aren't as weak as that Farmer was. In fact Videl may be a lot stronger than Mr. Satan, she really f'ed up Spopovitch during their fight. And Videl can't take a bullet (see Battle of Gods) or crush a giant rock with her bare hands.

For the most part someone with a PL of 10 is indeed stronger and faster than someone with a PL of 5 just like someone with a PL of 10,000 is stronger and faster than someone with a PL of 5000. No power levels were shown or mentioned after the Freeza saga. And we don't even know for sure if Freeza was telling the truth about his own PL in his 1st form being 530,000 and over 1,000,000 in his 2nd form since we never saw their scouters measure anything over 180,000. For all we know Freeza may have been lying or just estimating how powerful he was since he can't sense ki. But that's a whole other can of worms.

Of course. But them literally be twice as strong, fast, etc. is never suggested anywhere, and repeatedly shown to NOT be the case. Unless you think all it takes to blow up a planet is 3600 humans.

No that's not the way it works. Even if 3600 humans could combine their ki blasts they couldn't do what you are talking about. For the same reason why 530 saiyans each with a PL of 1000 couldn't have killed 1st form Freeza even if they combined their attacks.
What you seem to be talking about is this.
http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en ... tml#h_read
http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en ... tml#h_read
And that's not the way ki attacks work in the DB universe.

[RandomGuy96]

They probably have much more. They certainly aren't as weak as that Farmer was. In fact Videl may be a lot stronger than Mr. Satan, she really f'ed up Spopovitch during their fight. And Videl can't take a bullet (see Battle of Gods) or crush a giant rock with her bare hands.

Don't ignore the question. I asked for proof that they were 10 or more. Do you actually have any?

No that's not the way it works. Even if 3600 humans could combine their ki blasts they couldn't do what you are talking about. For the same reason why 530 saiyans each with a PL of 1000 couldn't have killed 1st form Freeza even if they combined their attacks.
What you seem to be talking about is this.
http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en ... tml#h_read
http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en ... tml#h_read
And that's not the way ki attacks work in the DB universe.

Proof that you can't do that?

Actually, what I was saying was that, no, the equivalent power of 3600 humans is NOT enough to destroy the Earth, which is just further evidence that they're not linear, which is never stated anywhere.

[auspx]

They'd have to do much more than just change one line of dialogue. They'd have to change the entire opening of the TV special so that it doesn't go straight from Goku's birth to Selypa off on the other side of the universe busy blowing stuff up.

Of course, the fact that the one line of dialogue you want changed also happens to be practically Selypa's only dialogue in the entire movie highlights another problem. If we're hypothetically changing the TV special so that Selypa is Goku's mother, we'd probably need to change it so that Selypa is actually an important character. Or at least more important than Toteppo.

The movie doesn't show his actual birth. It shows baby Goku lying in that high tech crib/pod thing. And it doesn't show where his mother was by the time the movie begins.

[auspx]

They probably have much more. They certainly aren't as weak as that Farmer was. In fact Videl may be a lot stronger than Mr. Satan, she really f'ed up Spopovitch during their fight. And Videl can't take a bullet (see Battle of Gods) or crush a giant rock with her bare hands.

Don't ignore the question. I asked for proof that they were 10 or more. Do you actually have any?

I should have written Majin Spopovitch. What more proof do you need?

[RandomGuy96]

They probably have much more. They certainly aren't as weak as that Farmer was. In fact Videl may be a lot stronger than Mr. Satan, she really f'ed up Spopovitch during their fight. And Videl can't take a bullet (see Battle of Gods) or crush a giant rock with her bare hands.

Don't ignore the question. I asked for proof that they were 10 or more. Do you actually have any?

I should have written Majin Spopovitch. What more proof do you need?

Any proof that they're 10 or more. You keep trying to use that to prove that you know better than the official material, but I've yet to see any evidence for this claim. I don't even think Mr. Satan's more than 5, he's just physically strong (which has nothing to do with ki) on part of being a 6'2 muscular martial artist. Plus, Toriyama said he was weaker than Bob Sapp anyway, and Bob Sapp is just awful.

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Any proof that they're 10 or more. You keep trying to use that to prove that you know better than the official material, but I've yet to see any evidence for this claim. I don't even think Mr. Satan's more than 5, he's just physically strong (which has nothing to do with ki) on part of being a 6'2 muscular martial artist. Plus, Toriyama said he was weaker than Bob Sapp anyway, and Bob Sapp is just awful.

Videl had to be at 10 or more to do what she did to Majin Spopovitch... and it would be really illogical for her to be as weak as that Farmer was and still do what she did in that fight.

Size doesn't matter in the DB universe. We see it all the time. Nappa was much bigger than Vegeta but Vegeta was much stronger than Nappa. I don't think that Mr. Satan's or Videl's size has anything to do with how strong or how weak they are.

This "kid Goku had a PL of only 10" is bull and you know it. You know what else proves that it's bull? This panel from the Jaco manga.
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2013 ... _armor.png
Grandpa Gohan is an experienced martial artist. Would he really consider an opponent with a PL of only 10 "unbelievably strong" even if it's just a kid? I don't think so. We have no idea how strong Grandpa Gohan was (he may have been close to Roshi's level) but an opponent with a PL of only 10 would be a joke to him. The bottom line is that we don't know how strong baby Goku was unless you count anime only filler and we have no idea how strong kid Goku was... but it's common sense that kid Goku wasn't only twice as strong as that Farmer from DBZ.

[RandomGuy96]

Videl had to be at 10 or more to do what she did to Majin Spopovitch... and it would be really illogical for her to be as weak as that Farmer was and still do what she did in that fight.

Again, where is your proof? Do you have any, any at all, to back up what you're saying? Because it seems to me that all you're doing is screaming "No, I'M right, the official material is shit!" without any evidence, then insinuating that I must actually secretly agree with you, and am just in denial of your all-knowing greatness.

Size doesn't matter in the DB universe. We see it all the time. Nappa was much bigger than Vegeta but Vegeta was much stronger than Nappa. I don't think that Mr. Satan's or Videl's size has anything to do with how strong or how weak they are compared to other characters.

It doesn't matter when there's a huge difference in ki. But a tall muscular man in the DBZ universe will still be much stronger than a short scrawny guy when ki isn't a factor. Which it isn't, with the non-super powered people Mr. Satan fights.

This "kid Goku had a PL of only 10" is bull and you know it. You know what else proves that it's bull? This panel from the Jaco manga.
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2013 ... _armor.png
Grandpa Gohan is an experienced martial artist. Would he really consider an opponent with a PL of only 10 "unbelievably strong" even if it's just a kid? I don't think so.

It's a three year old who can crush rocks bigger than him with his bare hands and tank bullets, so yes, I'd define that as unbelievably strong.

I also like how you cut out the rest of the sentence: "you're unbelievably strong for a small kid."

We have no idea how strong Grandpa Gohan was (he may have been close to Roshi's level) but an opponent with a PL of only 10 would be a joke to him. The bottom line is that we don't know how strong baby Goku was unless you count anime only filler and we have no idea how strong kid Goku was... but it's common sense that kid Goku wasn't only twice as strong as that Farmer from DBZ.

He wasn't, but his battle power number was twice the farmer's.

[auspx]

Videl had to be at 10 or more to do what she did to Majin Spopovitch... and it would be really illogical for her to be as weak as that Farmer was and still do what she did in that fight.

Again, where is your proof? Do you have any, any at all, to back up what you're saying? Because it seems to me that all you're doing is screaming "No, I'M right, the official material is shit!" without any evidence, then insinuating that I must actually secretly agree with you, and am just in denial of your all-knowing greatness.

The proof is right there. Are you now going to claim that the Majin boost/power up is worthless and that Majin Spopovitch was no stronger than the Farmer from the beginning of DBZ? What official material are you talking about? I am talking about that part in the manga where Videl really f'ed up Majin Spopovitch. It makes sense for Videl to be stronger than the Farmer (PL 5) to do what she did. A PL of 15 or more is a reasonable estimate.

Kid Goku's PL was never stated in the manga. All we can do is estimate how strong he was by looking at the things that he did. We know for a fact that the Farmer had a PL of 5 because it's in the manga. We can try to estimate how strong kid Goku was compared to the Farmer. I think a PL of 10 is way too low if you look at what kid Goku was capable of, and the fact that even an experienced martial artist (Grandpa Gohan) considered kid Goku to be "dangerous". But if you want to believe something that's completely illogical just because a guidebook said so, well that's your choice.

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It's a three year old who can crush rocks bigger than him with his bare hands and tank bullets, so yes, I'd define that as unbelievably strong.

I also like how you cut out the rest of the sentence: "you're unbelievably strong for a small kid."

Goku wasn't 3 years old in the first chapter of the DB manga, he was 3 years old in DB Minus and in Jaco. In the beginning of DB he was 12.

[RandomGuy96]

The proof is right there. Are you now going to claim that the Majin boost/power up is worthless and that Majin Spopovitch was no stronger than the Farmer from the beginning of DBZ? What official material are you talking about?

No, I'm saying he wouldn't be 10.

I am talking about that part in the manga where Videl really f'ed up Majin Spopovitch. It makes sense for Videl to be stronger than the Farmer (PL 5) to do what she did. A PL of 15 or more is a reasonable estimate.

So, no actual evidence? Got ya, good to know. I'm glad we've established that.

Kid Goku's PL was never stated in the manga. All we can do is estimate how strong he was by looking at the things that he did. We know for a fact that the Farmer had a PL of 5 because it's in the manga. We can try to estimate how strong kid Goku was compared to the Farmer. I think a PL of 10 is way too low if you look at what kid Goku was capable of, and the fact that even an experienced martial artist (Grandpa Gohan) considered kid Goku to be "dangerous". But if you want to believe something that's completely illogical just because a guidebook said so, well that's your choice.

Except it's not illogical, it just doesn't fit your preconceived notions of how battle powers work, which has no grounding in anything, especially when it's repeatedly shown that there doesn't appear to be any consistency or scale between the numbers and actual feats; Saiyan arc Vegeta can blow up a planet, which clearly makes him more than thirty six hundred times stronger than the farmer. You have offered nothing except blind, baseless speculation to counter the official material.

No, he didn't consider Goku to be dangerous. He said that he WOULD have been dangerous had he not been an experienced martial artist. Which is pretty much the exact opposite of what you just said ("even an experienced martial artist considers Goku to be dangerous" =/= "Goku would have only been considered dangerous by someone other than an experienced martial artist"). Just like how he didn't just say Goku was incredibly strong, just that he was incredibly strong for a 3 year old. Seriously, do you assume I can't click on the link and read it myself?

[Herms]

The movie doesn't show his actual birth. It shows baby Goku lying in that high tech crib/pod thing. And it doesn't show where his mother was by the time the movie begins.

The first scene starts with the narrator saying that "on Planet Vegeta, a baby boy lets out his first cry". So Goku has either just been born, or he's held off crying for a surprisingly long time.

[auspx]

Saiyan arc Vegeta can blow up a planet, which clearly makes him more than thirty six hundred times stronger than the farmer. You have offered nothing except blind, baseless speculation to counter the official material.

In anime only filler. We never saw him do that in the manga and we have no idea if he could really do it. And no, that's not the way charged ki attacks work. When Vegeta is firing his ki blast he is not "3600 times stronger than the Farmer". That's not how it works. We saw it in DB Vol. 17 (DBZ Vol. 1) that a charged up ki blast can be much more powerful than the PL of the person who is doing it. Goku's kamehameha increased his PL from ~400 to ~900. Piccolo's attack increased his PL from ~400 to ~1400

No, he didn't consider Goku to be dangerous. He said that he WOULD have been dangerous had he not been an experienced martial artist. Just like how he didn't just say Goku was incredibly stronger, but that he was incredibly strong for a 3 year old. Seriously, do you assume I can't click on the link and read it myself?

He means that kid Goku could be dangerous to normal people. Of course he was not dangerous to Grandpa Gohan, until he looked at the moon and turned into an oozaru. Some people claim that kid Goku attacked Grandpa Gohan and they actually fought each other. We never see that in the manga but it might be possible. If they did fight and Grandpa Gohan, an experienced martial artist, thinks that kid Goku is "strong" for a small kid, then kid Goku's PL can't be 10. That's much too low to impress an experienced martial artist. An opponent with a PL of 10 is a joke to someone like Grandpa Gohan even if that opponent is just a kid. And I'm not buying the theory that Grandpa Gohan was really weak so that even a kid with a PL of 10 would seem very strong to him. Wasn't Grandpa Gohan the student of Master Roshi? Wasn't his PL somewhere close to Roshi's level?

The first scene starts with the narrator saying that "on Planet Vegeta, a baby boy lets out his first cry". So Goku has either just been born, or he's held off crying for a surprisingly long time.

Well, Goku did cry a lot in that movie. You can't take the "his first cry" line literally. We agree that according to the events shown in the movie Seripa can't be Goku's mother. Which is why it would have been easier for AT to just rewrite that story instead of making the entire Bardock TV Special non-canon and introducing a ton of plot holes in a completely new story (DB Minus).