Need More Info Regarding Master Audio Tapes For Dragon Ball

[Zestanor]

I've known about the audio debacle for a while now, but I've never quite understood what exactly... happened. Correct me if this story is wrong. Toei records the audio and mixes it onto a large cinetape reel. Then they get out a print of the footage, and put it and the good audio onto a composite broadcast tape (betacam?) They ship this out to Fuji TV. Toei tosses the audio reels and puts the film away. Fuji TV broadcasts their copy of the new episode... Then what? Do they throw it out? Do they use it for reruns? I assume some station in Japan has been rerunning DB nonstop; at what point did reruns start using the optical audio, and why?

[MarcFBR]

I've known about the audio debacle for a while now, but I've never quite understood what exactly... happened. Correct me if this story is wrong. Toei records the audio and mixes it onto a large cinetape reel. Then they get out a print of the footage, and put it and the good audio onto a composite broadcast tape (betacam?) They ship this out to Fuji TV. Toei tosses the audio reels and puts the film away. Fuji TV broadcasts their copy of the new episode... Then what? Do they throw it out? Do they use it for reruns? I assume some station in Japan has been rerunning DB nonstop; at what point did reruns start using the optical audio, and why?

Traditionally, most stations either drop the tape into a corner never to be found again, toss it into a trash can because it's wasting space, or more likely they slap a new label on it and use it for something else.

[Zestanor]

Traditionally, most stations either drop the tape into a corner never to be found again, toss it into a trash can because it's wasting space, or more likely they slap a new label on it and use it for something else.

What source did they use for reruns? Or did they not do reruns?

[superrayman3]

When your storage space fills up, what do you do then? You either need to build or rent a new facility to hold them (which costs money), or throw away old stuff to make room for new stuff.

That's a good point, when you run out of storage room, you do need to do something that is a fact, however like I had pointed out in a previous post you can save some significant storage space if you transfer your original materials to a more compact format when it's applicable before getting rid of the original stuff (IE: cinetape audio masters being transferred to VHS/Betamax before trashing the cinetape masters)

Plus, there is the cost of climate control and facility maintenance, otherwise the material could potentially degrade to the point that they're not usable.

That's true you do have to take climate control and facility maintenance into consideration, but, think of it this way, if you transfer your original materials to a more compact media format (again using the cinetape to VHS/Betamax example), you save on storage space which in turn means you could have less storage facilities thus cutting storage and maintenance costs by a decent amount.

[MarcFBR]

When your storage space fills up, what do you do then? You either need to build or rent a new facility to hold them (which costs money), or throw away old stuff to make room for new stuff.

That's a good point, when you run out of storage room, you do need to do something that is a fact, however like I had pointed out in a previous post you can save some significant storage space if you transfer your original materials to a more compact format when it's applicable before getting rid of the original stuff (IE: cinetape audio masters being transferred to VHS/Betamax before trashing the cinetape masters)

Plus, there is the cost of climate control and facility maintenance, otherwise the material could potentially degrade to the point that they're not usable.

That's true you do have to take climate control and facility maintenance into consideration, but, think of it this way, if you transfer your original materials to a more compact media format (again using the cinetape to VHS/Betamax example), you save on storage space which in turn means you could have less storage facilities thus cutting storage and maintenance costs by a decent amount.

This is still thinking from a rather consumer-centric standpoint (VHS and Beta for archival copies?) Now you have them spending the time and money to buy new equipment, to copy tapes to another format, so they can store it, when they don't really plan to use it again.

Remember, they tossed crap out because they didn't PLAN to use it. DB had served it's usefulness. They kept various copies that were good enough for their purposes.

[Gonstead]

Add to the fact that when you're a company like Toei, who produced and still produces as much content as they do, filling up space most likely became a regular thing for them to have to deal with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toei_Company#List_of_films

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toei_Animation#TV_series

Do you really expect for them to have THAT much storage space, especially in a time where home video was never even a concern or a thought for them?

[Kojiro Sasaki]

Dragon Ball Z Episode #1 might as well have been Dragon Ball Episode #154, there's no way enough people would have sought to buy such a long series on home video even if Dragon Ball has some of the higher quality production values for a long running series. With the hundreds of episodes and films being produced by Toei Animation a year I really don't see how it is so unreasonable for them to have trashed what were then highly unnecessary masters. It's a shame, but it made sense.

Yes, the tapes were deleted. What does it mean? It means that there were reasons to do so. I'm not denying the reasons. I'm just expressing my “masters preservation politics”. There were people who thought like that and thanks to them, we have many epic classics fully preserved (I mentioned my country in the previous post).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw2dBV6uxdQ#t=598 - Priceless performances by the world's greatest voice actors should be kept
(the difference between “music masters” and “TV show masters” relevance/value is obvious, so do not accuse me of forcing music treatment on to TV shows. This is just an example of the way of thinking I support)

Nobody in the mid-80s could have predicted the World Wide Web.

That's not the point, unless you are trying to say that they predicted that in the 60's in Poland

By the way, IIRC, there was one Russian scientist who said in the 60's that in the future, people's houses will be connected with each other by the global web

The fact both of you can't understand that there wasn't much of a reason for them to keep them (...)

As long as my English is not proven by proper papers, I cannot make statements about that, but I guess that this is just your another strange-as-usual interpretation of what I was trying to say

When your storage space fills up, what do you do then?

I think that one big basement would be enough for everything they produced, but I have no data to work with so I really cannot tell anything at that point. I'm gathering various information like what tapes they used (type, size etc.) and other things like that. We can guess forever, but if we want to do real estimates we need some real data.

Do somebody have a list of the 5 most popular anime shows from Toei Animation? (1985-1992 for example)

Plus, there is the cost of climate control and facility maintenance, otherwise the material could potentially degrade to the point that they're not usable.

We are talking about magnetic tape here. Don't forget that they were able to keep photographic film.

Technically speaking. they didn't dispose of audio source. They just found more economic way of keeping it.

[MarcFBR]

Yes, the tapes were deleted. What does it mean? It means that there were reasons to do so. I'm not denying the reasons. I'm just expressing my “masters preservation politics”. There were people who thought like that and thanks to them, we have many epic classics fully preserved (I mentioned my country in the previous post).

But once again, that is your thought, with you living in 2014.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw2dBV6uxdQ#t=598 - Priceless performances by the world's greatest voice actors should be kept
(the difference between “music masters” and “TV show masters” relevance/value is obvious, so do not accuse me of forcing music treatment on to TV shows. This is just an example of the way of thinking I support)

Then your example is entirely worthless (as you technically admit) since music albums and performances were sold and resold constantly (of course, the fact you give an example and then go 'but don't call me on this bad example' shows that you clearly knew it was a bad one.)

Nobody in the mid-80s could have predicted the World Wide Web.

That's not the point, unless you are trying to say that they predicted that in the 60's in Poland

Company A keeping something and company B in another country not keeping something don't really have anything to do with each other.

By the way, IIRC, there was one Russian scientist who said in the 60's that in the future, people's houses will be connected with each other by the global web

More than just Russia. But then the internet itself and people predicting it's existence still doesn't quite have anything to do with understanding the way media changed in that timeframe (frankly, series being sold as they are now was concurrent with, but separate from, the internet's insane rise once you got around the year 2000.)

The fact both of you can't understand that there wasn't much of a reason for them to keep them (...)

As long as my English is not proven by proper papers, I cannot make statements about that, but I guess that this is just your another strange-as-usual interpretation of what I was trying to say

When your storage space fills up, what do you do then?

I think that one big basement would be enough for everything they produced, but I have no data to work with so I really cannot tell anything at that point. I'm gathering various information like what tapes they used (type, size etc.) and other things like that. We can guess forever, but if we want to do real estimates we need some real data.

This one makes my head hurt because it's more than a little stupid. "One big basement" ....really? And then of course, you go on to say you actually don't know. You REALLY don't know just how much space this stuff can take up, moreso when you consider in Japan space has always been at a premium. Most companies in America that have the budget to store stuff properly 'just in case' get massive salt mines, and it's generally stored for reasons beyond "well we can remaster it later." TNG was stored in pristine condition because most of the model shots done on TNG were ludicrously time intensive and expensive, and it was expected they could dig shots out of storage later to re-use on the show.

Plus, there is the cost of climate control and facility maintenance, otherwise the material could potentially degrade to the point that they're not usable.

We are talking about magnetic tape here. Don't forget that they were able to keep photographic film.

Magnetic tape doesn't store that well, there is a reason why even most tape based shows tend to be archived on film.

Technically speaking. they didn't dispose of audio source. They just found more economic way of keeping it.

That's... basically just using word play to try and prove your point. When talking about DBZ and audio quality, the so called 'better quality' copies of the shows audio were tossed. If you are going to go "Well, they didn't TECHNICALLY get rid of it" then 99% of everything else you have said is moot, as by that logic than what we have is good enough, no reason to discuss the rest.

[Attitudefan]

Yes, by 2014, voice actors and voice acting is looked at differently than even in the late 90's in North America alone and I'm sure it was the sane elsewhere. Voice actors were not credited for whom they voiced or many times not credited at all.

[dan2026]

Strangely enough the audio masters of the original Dragon Ball series owned by Toei seem a lot better quality than those of DBZ.

They sound pretty good on the Japanese dvds. Not perfect, but a lot better than the DBZ ones.

[LostTimeLord]

While it evidently made sense for Toei to junk the original audio masters at the time, what's more annoying is Toei's apparent disinterest in the existing higher quality fan-recordings, especially as they won't last forever.
To go back to the Doctor Who example mentioned earlier, the BBC used fan-made color betamax recordings of 70s doctor who episodes for their VHS/DVD restorations when the BBC's archive only included black and white film copies, and used the audio from the betamax copies in their restoration too (and this isn't the only example of them using fan-recordings as reference when restoring episodes). Admittedly Dragon Ball would be on a much bigger scale, but it still sucks that higher quality audio is out there and Toei didn't use it for their restoration.
Hopefully Toei will down the line if they ever want a new remaster of the original Dragon Ball/DBZ. Then again, this is the company that apparently ignored the higher quality audio for GT in their Dragon box remaster, so I'm not holding my breath.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

But once again, that is your thought, with you living in 2014.

What an attitude towards art has to do with 2014? But If you know better what I want to say, I apologize.

Then your example is entirely worthless (as you technically admit) since music albums and performances were sold and resold constantly (of course, the fact you give an example and then go 'but don't call me on this bad example' shows that you clearly knew it was a bad one.)

You completely missed my point. I knew that you will do that without the explanation below the link, but I didn't expect that you will do it with it. I just remembered what the guy said about the masters and I ONLY wanted to paraphrase his line. Sorry, but this interpretation proves your hostility and really, writing in English is too hard for me to waste my time on exchanges like that.

More than just Russia. But then the internet itself and people predicting it's existence still doesn't quite have anything to do with understanding the way media changed in that timeframe (frankly, series being sold as they are now was concurrent with, but separate from, the internet's insane rise once you got around the year 2000.)

You expect me to quote everybody who said that? This is the one that came to my mind and I was only referring to what was said.

This one makes my head hurt because it's more than a little stupid. "One big basement" ....really? And then of course, you go on to say you actually don't know. You REALLY don't know just how much space this stuff can take up, moreso when you consider in Japan space has always been at a premium. Most companies in America that have the budget to store stuff properly 'just in case' get massive salt mines, and it's generally stored for reasons beyond "well we can remaster it later." TNG was stored in pristine condition because most of the model shots done on TNG were ludicrously time intensive and expensive, and it was expected they could dig shots out of storage later to re-use on the show.

Don't worry, I will research that on my own. Don't waste your time on stupid people. I have my own set of specific views and unusual way of researching things. You have 100% right to consider them stupid. I have no problem with that.
Sorry, but due to the fact that the most of your posts I saw are ironic, troll-like short and hostile responses rather than solid meritorical explanations, I do not consider you as an authority. I also don't understand your strange way of interpreting what I'm saying.

My estimates gave me totally different numbers and as long as I'm not forcing anyone accept my theory as the fact, you don't need to be worried. By the way, you have no slight idea what I mean by “big”

Magnetic tape doesn't store that well, there is a reason why even most tape based shows tend to be archived on film.

Everything depends on the type and quality of the tape. The thing I meant is that the tape does not need that specific storage conditions as photographic film. They taught me that it is the best to store it in normal room conditions with ~13-23°C temperature. I'm dealing with magnetic tapes and other electronic-related things since I remember. Now, as an electronic engineer, I'm able to properly clean and treat the tape, repair tape player (head azimuth, bias current (amplitude and frequency, which is different for various types of tape), amp's amplification, frequency correction for chromium/iron/metal tapes, playing speed, pressure roller's pressure and measure everything with oscilloscope).

Yes, I know that the fact that everything I repaired still works is just a miracle. I don't have idea about these things, but they are magically starting to work after I touch them. Maybe my stupidity level is not that big to prevent me from understanding that I was wrong about something. Don't forget that I was completely wrong about the fanbase proportions and I somehow understood that.

That's... basically just using word play to try and prove your point. When talking about DBZ and audio quality, the so called 'better quality' copies of the shows audio were tossed. If you are going to go "Well, they didn't TECHNICALLY get rid of it" then 99% of everything else you have said is moot, as by that logic than what we have is good enough, no reason to discuss the rest.

As I said before, If you know better than me what I wanted to say, I cannot argue. It's a shame that you ignored half of my first post. What the hell I need to prove when I'm expressing my opinion, saying what I think about deleting masters and clearly stating that I'm at research stage? “You are an idiot, because you are doing research instead of already knowing something” - is that what you are trying to say? Or maybe you want me to make statements while I'm not sure about what I'm saying? That's the last kind of advice I would expect from an administrator of the discussion forum with quite high culture/content standards Contrary to many people on Kanzenshuu, I prefer to have a real data to work with, instead of making presumptions, calling them facts and thinking that I know everything the best. Yes, I think that deleting the masters was stupid thing to do, but when I will gather more info I may change my opinion. Everything I know for now makes me think what I think and I don't remember anything from the forum rules that would forbid to make assumptions.

Could you please spend a little bit more time on formatting the text of your posts? They are way to big and it's hard to read them. An administrator is the last person who should not pay attention to how his posts look But still, I appreciate the fact that you spend time to write something more than usual, despite the fact that the main motivation was bashing. If you would like to change the tone (I prefer writing normal responses, not like this one), we can talk but if you consider me to be a troll and you feel an administrator's obligation to kill me - don't worry! When I'm writing crap, I'm always adding information that what I wrote is crap so I'm not causing any confusion among users (should I add the info that this is a joke/irony?)

But really: I myself don't like the way I wrote this post. Let's just regain respect for each other and start to talk normally. Expressing opinions, commenting and disagreeing without insulting and hostility.
(Damn, that was a hard one... 3 hours... I'm not even sure if these words for tape player's parts are proper... Believe me or not - I did not attend a single English lesson in my life)

[MarcFBR]

But once again, that is your thought, with you living in 2014.

What an attitude towards art has to do with 2014? But If you know better what I want to say, I apologize.

The point was actually that you are having a hard time disconnecting what you want, as a collector living in 2014, with the sensibilities and issues facing a production company 20 to 30 years ago.

You completely missed my point. I knew that you will do that without the explanation below the link, but I didn't expect that you will do it with it. I just remembered what the guy said about the masters and I ONLY wanted to paraphrase his line. Sorry, but this interpretation proves your hostility and really, writing in English is too hard for me to waste my time on exchanges like that.

No, I didn't miss your point, you missed mine. You brought up an example and went 'but the situation is different, so don't call me on it.' Comparing storing records in an era where records were sold, stored, and reprinted many times, has NOTHING to do with storing video masters for something that by and large, Toei was pretty sure they were done with in the 80s.

You expect me to quote everybody who said that? This is the one that came to my mind and I was only referring to what was said.

Missed my point again actually.

I was attempting to explain that just because people 'see something coming' doesn't mean enough people saw it coming to make it a relevant way to do business. Plenty of people saw that storing dates as 2 digits digitally would be a problem, but hey, storage was expensive.

Don't worry, I will research that on my own. Don't waste your time on stupid people. I have my own set of specific views and unusual way of researching things. You have 100% right to consider them stupid. I have no problem with that.

Wasting time on stupid people isn't a bad thing. Most people want to learn and improve their knowledge to some degree. I only openly consider someone stupid when they act stubborn on their bad information.

Sorry, but due to the fact that the most of your posts I saw are ironic, troll-like short and hostile responses rather than solid meritorical explanations, I do not consider you as an authority. I also don't understand your strange way of interpreting what I'm saying.

So responding to every point you make it being a troll? I could have responded to you far shorter and just posted a classic Robert Downey Jr. gif. And I never said I was an authority. But on this topic I certainly know more than you. The fact you seem to have your own opinion is fine, but in this case it isn't a matter of "well we all view things our own ways in the world and different opinions are valid and good" because you are factually ignoring the way things were based on your own wants.

My estimates gave me totally different numbers and as long as I'm not forcing anyone accept my theory as the fact, you don't need to be worried. By the way, you have no slight idea what I mean by “big”

Space is at premium in Japan. You can act like you meant big as meaning some insane large thing, but that wouldn't exist.

Everything depends on the type and quality of the tape. The thing I meant is that the tape does not need that specific storage conditions as photographic film. They taught me that it is the best to store it in normal room conditions with ~13-23°C temperature. I'm dealing with magnetic tapes and other electronic-related things since I remember. Now, as an electronic engineer, I'm able to properly clean and treat the tape, repair tape player (head azimuth, bias current (amplitude and frequency, which is different for various types of tape), amp's amplification, frequency correction for chromium/iron/metal tapes, playing speed, pressure roller's pressure and measure everything with oscilloscope).

But once again... for actually archiving stuff, you generally wouldn't archive on tape, because in most respects, it's amazingly poor compared to film. It's why when they stumble upon old lost episodes of Doctor Who, it's almost never old tape copies, but film copies of old tape masters.

Yes, I know that the fact that everything I repaired still works is just a miracle. I don't have idea about these things, but they are magically starting to work after I touch them. Maybe my stupidity level is not that big to prevent me from understanding that I was wrong about something. Don't forget that I was completely wrong about the fanbase proportions and I somehow understood that.

This... doesn't really have anything to do with anything to be honest. If you fix a tape machine and throw a tape in and it looks good, it's because it happened to be a tape that stored well. You having talent at fixing tape machines doesn't really have anything to do with the topic.

As I said before, If you know better than me what I wanted to say, I cannot argue. It's a shame that you ignored half of my first post. What the hell I need to prove when I'm expressing my opinion, saying what I think about deleting masters and clearly stating that I'm at research stage?

Your research seems to be 'well if all this had happened in the 80s, we'd have better Dragon Ball Z. It's sort of a dead and buried point isn't it? The show has been done for 20 years, and stuff is stored better now (and opinions can be wrong.)

“You are an idiot, because you are doing research instead of already knowing something” - is that what you are trying to say? Or maybe you want me to make statements while I'm not sure about what I'm saying? That's the last kind of advice I would expect from an administrator of the discussion forum with quite high culture/content standards

This seems less of an attempt to prove a point, and more an attempt to somehow discredit me since you are unable to make your point. But fine, here is my advice- Educate yourself, and learn the difference between what you wish things were, and how they are.

Contrary to many people on Kanzenshuu, I prefer to have a real data to work with, instead of making presumptions, calling them facts and thinking that I know everything the best. Yes, I think that deleting the masters was stupid thing to do, but when I will gather more info I may change my opinion. Everything I know for now makes me think what I think and I don't remember anything from the forum rules that would forbid to make assumptions.

Except that you seem to be ignoring multiple people (it's not just me) explaining why things happened as they did, and you've ignored it multiple times. You can make assumptions however you want, but when you have multiple people explaining why you are wrong with nothing but your own opinion to back it up, it comes across less as wanting to learn, and more as closing your eyes and claiming the sky could be purple since you can't see that it's blue at the moment.

Could you please spend a little bit more time on formatting the text of your posts? They are way to big and it's hard to read them. An administrator is the last person who should not pay attention to how his posts look

You've run out of comments to make sure you are going to insult the formatting of my post? Well alright then. Of course, you have bigger blocks of text in the post I'm responding to than the post you are criticizing, must be sorta dark in your house since you don't notice how black your pot is.

But still, I appreciate the fact that you spend time to write something more than usual, despite the fact that the main motivation was bashing

Don't mistake pointing out the flaws of your logic with bashing (although I did throw in some light bashing, it seasons up the post a bit when it's just line after line of me explaining how you were wrong.)

If you would like to change the tone (I prefer writing normal responses, not like this one), we can talk but if you consider me to be a troll and you feel an administrator's obligation to kill me - don't worry! When I'm writing crap, I'm always adding information that what I wrote is crap so I'm not causing any confusion among users (should I add the info that this is a joke/irony?)

I don't think you are a troll. I mean, I think you are wrong and pretty hardheaded (most of us here are hardheaded frankly), but I certainly don't think you are a troll.

But really: I myself don't like the way I wrote this post. Let's just regain respect for each other and start to talk normally. Expressing opinions, commenting and disagreeing without insulting and hostility.

So you write a big post where you insult me a few times, but then go "Let's have respect and let's not insult each other."

[Kojiro Sasaki]

The point was actually that you are having a hard time disconnecting what you want, as a collector living in 2014, with the sensibilities and issues facing a production company 20 to 30 years ago.

That's your interpretation. I don't know from where the words “want”, “collector”, “living in 2014” and “company 20 to 30 years ago” came from. Why are you trying to prove that I'm looking on that matter from today's perspective?

No, I didn't miss your point, you missed mine. You brought up an example and went 'but the situation is different, so don't call me on it.' Comparing storing records in an era where records were sold, stored, and reprinted many times, has NOTHING to do with storing video masters for something that by and large, Toei was pretty sure they were done with in the 80s.

You missed my first point and it allowed me to miss your point. Isn't the word “paraphrase” used in English? Why do you make your own interpretation instead of listening to the original author of the post? Why do you connect the content of this movie with our case, when I'm clearly saying that while I was writing the line about voice actors, this speech came to my mind and I decided to quote and paraphrase it? It's so easy, that I have no idea how to explain it. Should I cut out the speech itself and post it as an audio file? Isn't it obvious that the guide below the link was explaining that you should not compare the music masters to television show ones? I wanted to write what I wrote and I posted the original material on which my sentence was based. That's the perfect example of putting words in my mouth, which makes me think that you only want to find a reason to attack me.

I was attempting to explain that just because people 'see something coming' doesn't mean enough people saw it coming to make it a relevant way to do business. Plenty of people saw that storing dates as 2 digits digitally would be a problem, but hey, storage was expensive.

I understand and agree. The point is that I didn't brought up the internet case. It was just a silly comment of Attitudefan's post (with lol at the end).

Wasting time on stupid people isn't a bad thing. Most people want to learn and improve their knowledge to some degree. I only openly consider someone stupid when they act stubborn on their bad information.

I think that wasting time is always a bad thing But now I'm a little bit confused. When I'm talking with the people who say crap, I'm politely explaining what I want to explain as long as they show that they want to learn. I'm using the word “stupid” when I consider somebody to be an ignorant person and when I want to end the discussion. As long as I'm not saying that “I'm sure about my bad information”, I don't think you have a right to call me “stubborn on my bad information”, but you can of course call me “stubborn on my way of researching” which you can consider to be stupid.

So responding to every point you make it being a troll? I could have responded to you far shorter and just posted a classic Robert Downey Jr. gif. And I never said I was an authority. But on this topic I certainly know more than you. The fact you seem to have your own opinion is fine, but in this case it isn't a matter of "well we all view things our own ways in the world and different opinions are valid and good" because you are factually ignoring the way things were based on your own wants.

From where the “responding to every point” part came from? Didn't I clearly state that the only thing I mean is your tone? You cannot know what I'm ignoring. Change the word “wants” with “research stage”. That's the part that bugs me. It's possible that I'm misreading your intentions, but it seems to me that you interpret/change my point to make a “bashing field” for yourself.

Space is at premium in Japan. You can act like you meant big as meaning some insane large thing, but that wouldn't exist.

I remember what you said about storage space in Japan. Appreciated and acknowledged.

But once again... for actually archiving stuff, you generally wouldn't archive on tape, because in most respects, it's amazingly poor compared to film. It's why when they stumble upon old lost episodes of Doctor Who, it's almost never old tape copies, but film copies of old tape masters.

It's hard to discuss this because I don't exactly know what you mean by “amazingly poor”. While I understand what you mean by tape vs film comparison, I wouldn't fully agree on that the tape is amazingly poor. Everything depends on tape quality and storage: There are things that are lying 30 years and they are in pristine condition and there are things that are completely degraded after less than 20 years of storage.

This... doesn't really have anything to do with anything to be honest. If you fix a tape machine and throw a tape in and it looks good, it's because it happened to be a tape that stored well. You having talent at fixing tape machines doesn't really have anything to do with the topic.

Due to the fact that I have a feeling that you look down on me, I needed to prove that I know something. Do you know a better way of doing this via internet? I still think that familiarity with magnetic tape and tape players has something to do with discussion about tape preservation... Don't you think that your explanation about throwing tape in sounds pretty lame? Comments like that make me think that I would need to write a habilitation here to make you understand that I have a pieces of brain in my skull.

Your research seems to be 'well if all this had happened in the 80s, we'd have better Dragon Ball Z. It's sort of a dead and buried point isn't it? The show has been done for 20 years, and stuff is stored better now (and opinions can be wrong.)

I don't know what you mean in the first part. You accused me of using a word play to prove something, while I said that I'm not proving anything. I wrote my thoughts on that matter and I said that this is the very beginning of my research. While you are expressing your opinion, you can but you don't need to prove anything. I never said that all opinions are valid.

This seems less of an attempt to prove a point, and more an attempt to somehow discredit me since you are unable to make your point. But fine, here is my advice- Educate yourself, and learn the difference between what you wish things were, and how they are.

This is not any attempt. This is just my interpretation (or misinterpretation) of what you said. I posted my thoughts and theories from the first stage of research, which, due to their status, can be 100% bullshit and I know that. So, basically yes - I cannot make my final point at the current research stage. Which part you consider to be discreditation? I only said that I don't know you and that your posts I read did not prove your knowledge (note that I could write that “all of your posts are stupid” - that would be an insult) You don't need to advice me to do something I told I'm already doing. My advice: If you care for educating people, use less invectives and less irony when you are pointing out flaws. You can also try to consider the person on the other side as potentially intelligent.

Except that you seem to be ignoring multiple people (it's not just me) explaining why things happened as they did, and you've ignored it multiple times. You can make assumptions however you want, but when you have multiple people explaining why you are wrong with nothing but your own opinion to back it up, it comes across less as wanting to learn, and more as closing your eyes and claiming the sky could be purple since you can't see that it's blue at the moment.

What gives you right to say that I'm ignoring people? Are you living in my head? I appreciate and accept everything people said - I remember what they said, I remember their nicknames and even avatars. Everything they said is considered by me as potential truth. Do not mistake discussion with ignoring. Being consistent with my own knowledge and ways of research has nothing to do with it. That's just me - I'm ready to change my views but only after great and detailed discussion.

As I said a couple of times, it is not about ignoring - it is about the way of researching. With all the respect for all users who took part in this discussion - I do not know them. I do not know if they are basing their opinions on research or if they just say what they saw somewhere. Many of the people just prefer to accept what they read somewhere, without checking it - that's how rumours are created. I was taught to not believe strangers Due to my ways of research, I discovered many super interesting facts. I many times avoided being deceived thanks to being extremely skeptical. I will not change my methods as long as I consider them useful and effective, as long as the facts prove that they are good.

You've run out of comments to make sure you are going to insult the formatting of my post? Well alright then. Of course, you have bigger blocks of text in the post I'm responding to than the post you are criticizing, must be sorta dark in your house since you don't notice how black your pot is.

I absolutely don't blame you for reading the tone like this The only thing I meant was a space between quoted and written text that makes the post way bigger:

[ quote ] <Kojiro's crap> [/ quote ]
(space)
<the text>

I thought that “could you please” sounds polite in English... Now when I'm reading it I really see how it might have sounded. Insulting really wasn't my intent. I just cannot see your entire post without scrolling up and down while I could see it that way. It makes quoting and writing response harder.

From the other point of view: See? I pointed out the flaws in your posts in 3x more polite way than you pointed out the flaws in my opinion and you automatically took it as an attack! We all are hypocrites (up to some level).

Don't mistake pointing out the flaws of your logic with bashing (although I did throw in some light bashing, it seasons up the post a bit when it's just line after line of me explaining how you were wrong.)

I'm not mistaking one with another. I know which parts of your post have educational value and which ones are just bashing. I fully appreciate the educational part. The only thing I'm referring to is bashing, putting words in my mouth and interpreting what I wrote to make it sound as stupid as possible. I really don't know what to think about it. By the way, to point the flaws in logic, you need to fully understand that logic. By reading some of your responses, I don't think that you fully understand it.

I don't think you are a troll. I mean, I think you are wrong and pretty hardheaded (most of us here are hardheaded frankly), but I certainly don't think you are a troll.

That's good to know. I'm also not entirely sure about your intentions - despite how everything above sounds, I wrote that only to make things clear. So, do you look down on me?

So you write a big post where you insult me a few times, but then go "Let's have respect and let's not insult each other."

That's exactly what I did. Eye for an eye. At the end of writing, I figured out that this is not the way and I decided to check if you are willing to sign the peace declaration.
(Still, I think that my micro-insults are not at the level you consider them to be. Yours are better )

[kei17]

Minus clean footage of the opening and ending, Sunrise chucked out 35mm copies of Gundam Wing (in fact, the only reason we solidly KNOW 35mm Wing existed was because they used stored 35mm copies of the OP/ED as extras on Blu-ray.)

Does that really mean that the episodes themselves were shot on 35mm, though? I heard that text-less openings and endings had been usually mastered onto 35mm even for 16mm TV series because they're supposed to be duplicated multiple times.


Anyway, everything can be explained by this mindset: Anime companies always discard what are NOT considered finished masters. Until the end of the '70s, magnetic audio masters were considered incomplete because audio would not be ready-to-use without recording it on film. Things had changed from the '80s, and they started storing magnetic audio masters for improved TV airings and home video releases. This era was the best both video and audio wise. Then digital videotapes became inexpensive in the early '90s, thus anime companies started using them as final media for finished masters. Since almost every TV was SD at the time, SD videotapes were enough good and they began discarding film masters which were no more finished products.

Toei are old-school, so they are always late for changes in methods of anime productions. They kept the first attitude longer than other anime companies, and sadly, that lasted until DBZ. You can at least blame them for being overly outdated.

[MarcFBR]

Minus clean footage of the opening and ending, Sunrise chucked out 35mm copies of Gundam Wing (in fact, the only reason we solidly KNOW 35mm Wing existed was because they used stored 35mm copies of the OP/ED as extras on Blu-ray.)

Does that really mean that the episodes themselves were shot on 35mm, though? I heard that text-less openings and endings had been usually mastered onto 35mm even for 16mm TV series because they're supposed to be duplicated multiple times.

It seems likely based on certain materials on the sets using snapshots from the show and appearing to be 35mm and not 16mm, but not solely being from the OP (likely small bits of material that got saved somehow.)

[GarrettCRW]

For those wondering how I came up with the numbers for how many tapes it would take to store the audio, take the number of episodes each show has and divide that by (4 for VHS, and 2 for Betamax) and then add the two numbers up.

DB 153/4=38.25 VHS Tapes
DBZ 291/4=72.75 VHS Tapes

DB 153/2=76.5 Betamax Tapes
DBZ 291/2=145.5 Betamax Tapes

That's not how archiving works. Single episode=single tape. By itself. And let's ignore Beta, since even by 1986 (i.e., when Dragon Ball started airing), it was dead as a consumer format. In the '80s, two episodes per tape of any show was the maximum (exceptions exist, but are rare), and unless the show was Star Trek, you weren't seeing a complete release anywhere. Period. So, without a perceived commercial value (and with Japan by its nature having way less storage space than in the US), it's no shocker that older 4-track audio tapes got trashed after the shows ended production. There are instances of the BBC junking shows into the 1990s, when they were made aware of the stupidity of the practice in 1978 (and the '90s junkings were of children's programming).

[superrayman3]

That's not how archiving works. Single episode=single tape. By itself.

Why would you do 1 episode of audio per tape if you can hold 4 episodes worth of audio with the highest quality setting? It'd be more cost efficient and take up less room to record 4 episodes worth of audio on a single tape than it would doing 1 episode per tape.

And let's ignore Beta, since even by 1986 (i.e., when Dragon Ball started airing), it was dead as a consumer format.

It may have been dead as a consumer format by 1986 but it could still be used for archival purposes.

In the '80s, two episodes per tape of any show was the maximum (exceptions exist, but are rare), and unless the show was Star Trek, you weren't seeing a complete release anywhere. Period.

You're talking about commercial home releases which is entirely different to what's being discussed which is archiving source material for future use.

So, without a perceived commercial value (and with Japan by its nature having way less storage space than in the US), it's no shocker that older 4-track audio tapes got trashed after the shows ended production.

As I said before it's not surprising and is understandable that Toei would get rid of bulky audio tapes there's no argument there, however when you go and trash bulky audio tapes without properly backing them up first that's what I have a problem with.

There are instances of the BBC junking shows into the 1990s, when they were made aware of the stupidity of the practice in 1978 (and the '90s junkings were of children's programming).

I'm not giving BBC a free pass on this issue either, it's really sad that some companies would just trash their own stuff without backing it up first, because at least to me doing that is completely disrespectful and insulting to the people who were involved in the production of the material.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

Why would you do 1 episode of audio per tape if you can hold 4 episodes worth of audio with the highest quality setting? It'd be more cost efficient and take up less room to record 4 episodes worth of audio on a single tape than it would doing 1 episode per tape.

They would need to: make procedures, hire people, buy hardware and tapes. Sounds too complicated and time/money consuming to me.

It may have been dead as a consumer format by 1986 but it could still be used for archival purposes.

Companies are not used to use home video formats for any inside-purposes. This would only cost money and make archived footage hard to use (potentially).

You're talking about commercial home releases which is entirely different to what's being discussed which is archiving source material for future use.

The main point is that there were no plans for any future use of it.

As I said before it's not surprising and is understandable that Toei would get rid of bulky audio tapes there's no argument there, however when you go and trash bulky audio tapes without properly backing them up first that's what I have a problem with.

I guess that optical track on photographic film was considered to be a proper backup material.

Anyway, everything can be explained by this mindset: Anime companies always discard what are NOT considered finished masters. Until the end of the '70s, magnetic audio masters were considered incomplete because audio would not be ready-to-use without recording it on film. Things had changed from the '80s, and they started storing magnetic audio masters for improved TV airings and home video releases. This era was the best both video and audio wise. Then digital videotapes became inexpensive in the early '90s, thus anime companies started using them as final media for finished masters. Since almost every TV was SD at the time, SD videotapes were enough good and they began discarding film masters which were no more finished products.

Toei are old-school, so they are always late for changes in methods of anime productions. They kept the first attitude longer than other anime companies, and sadly, that lasted until DBZ. You can at least blame them for being overly outdated.

Thanks for providing a great point. I don't think that I would have been able to find any information about their policy on “unfinished masters”. When connected with everything I'm reading, it makes 100% sense.