Goku's Feats

[Kamiccolo9]

in regards to the cell game, what I'm saying is that nothing contradicts FTL combat speed. To (the H-word) and the announcer, the only see hazy images sounds and explosions coming from all around the areana and above it. Also, this is the frame. Does that look like the face of someone who saw something normal? just your every day commentary on a normal fight, right?

Spoiler:

As for hercules reaction to Pure buu. Pure buu was being.

Pure buu was either HIGHLY suppressed OR it was pure gag. Don't believe me? (the H-word), frekaing (the H-word), dodged an attack from him in the same frame. lol, unless you think he's capable of something like that. xD

Spoiler:

Popo moving faster than lighting isn't in the manga?

Spoiler:

Also, what was that about human sighting being enough to see movements?

Spoiler:

Note that as fighters in DB get stronger, so does their ability to see fast movement. Bare that in mind when you look at this.

Spoiler:

AT hardly ever said "THIS PERSON IS ____."

Most of the feats we have from the series are careful inferences.

Here's one.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-dis ... ge-8213391

Well, there are those stranges blessings that AT sometimes grants us. Like this page, that makes it more than clear that Goku moves FTL.

Spoiler:

"like a god" Oh AT, humble humble AT.

But really, anyone who thinks FTL speeds are something AT "would never consider" must be smoking something really strong. The Dude's legacy is series of already buff characters getting endless and ridiculous Power ups.

Of course it's not normal. They are seeing people flying around punching really fast and throwing lasers at each other. The point is that they can see all of this. If they were moving faster than light, then there would be nothing.

Pure Buu doesn't highly suppress himself. He's a mindless monster. That panel wasn't a gag'; he missed because Mr. Buu was restraining him. The gag is when Buu actually hits Mr. Satan later.

That's more than likely a figure of speech. Unless you believe that the mantras in real life martial arts are being literal as well.

I'm not talking about the fighters in DB, I'm talking about the normal, everyday people like Bulma or the Tournament Announcer.

If a character was faster than light, they would have said so. Villains like Vegeta or Freeza bragged about everything else, why wouldn't they brag about their speed too, if they were that fast? The Saiyan and Namek arcs were full of references quantifying how powerful everyone is. If Burter, in all of his bragging about being the fastest in the universe, was faster than the speed of light, then wouldn't he have mentioned it?

You are trying to make a consistent mathematical formula for a work that was never meant to be consistently mathematically precise. And if you insist on doing that, you must also answer why there are none of the effects that FTL combat would have upon the Earth are displayed in these fights.

"Careful inferences" don't really mean anything in a universe that wasn't designed to be physically consistent from the beginning. And concerning gag feats, the Krillin/Roshi fight is more played for gags than the Goten/Trunks one.

And I never said that Toriyama would "never consider" making characters faster than light. What I'm saying is, if that plateau was ever reached, a character would have mentioned it. Yet there's nothing. And all the math you can provide doesn't change the fact that Toriyama wasn't sitting there with a calculator planning out formulas for strength and speed feats while writing DB; he was just trying to tell a good story.

No offence Kamiccolo, but have you read any of these fights?

22nd BT:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

23rd BT:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Yamcha vs Saibaman

Spoiler:

Heck, even Tao Pai Pai is casually hypersonic:

Spoiler:

And again, these guys have entire conversations while fighting. Are they talking at light speed too? How do they breathe while moving that fast? How do their eyes withstand that kind of wind resistance? Why aren't they creating sonic booms whenever they move? Why has no one ever said that they were moving faster than light?

What you just described are tropes which are used all throughout fiction. Toriyama simply doesn't care that much.
At most you can argue Toriyama is inconsistent in this regard.

I have read these, and I referenced the strangeness of that Tien/Goku fight quote above.

The thing is, this concept of not seeing the fights is brought up every now and then, yet is subverted time after time, in fights that have escalated faaaaaar beyond what is shown in early Dragon Ball, with the Goten/Trunks fight being the most obvious contender, as it shares a setting with these other Budokai fights.

And of course Toriyama is inconsistent and doesn't care. The whole DB universe is inconsistent due to its roots as a gag manga. That's what I'm trying to say. If you have to apply complicated mathematical formulas to prove that something is stronger than X, or faster than Y, then you are trying to ground it to real life. And if you do this, you have to explain why other real life effects don't apply.

Which is why it makes more sense to go with what's stated and shown, without having to make inferences by applying real world math, which is not at all what Toriyama intended.

Vegeta says he can blow up a planet, nothing contradicts it, so he can blow up a planet.
Cell says he can blow up the solar system (whatever that means), nothing contradicts it, so he can blow up the solar system.
Burter says that he is the fastest in the universe, it is immediately contradicted by Goku and Freeza, so he is not the fastest in the universe.

Toriyama is a very simplistic writer. If someone had surpassed a milestone like becoming faster than light, someone in the series would have said it.

In the krillin vs roshi fight, they had an entire fight sequence and the crowd couldn't see them. It makes no sense for the fighters to have gotten slower. The reason they don't create sonic booms is because this is DB not DC where some physics like that don't apply. Why does Google not tell me how fast you have to be to not be seen?

And yet, in the Goten/Trunks fight, where the characters are millions of times stronger, the audience has no trouble seeing them. And why should some physics have to play, and some not?

[White Oni]

Well, if you're going to pick and choose whose eye sight counts, especially when you're discounting people with god-like eyesight.(roshi) I don't even know what to say...

As for Buu missing against Hercule, again, you're picking and choosing when he's being "held back." It's so clear that it's gag it's not funny. Even Goku says "Good job hercule!"

As for ignoring the implications of a feat because "AT might not have thought of that." that's silly. That's like saying X superhero didn't really blow up the planet, the author didn't really expect that to be taken that way.

It's crystal clear that Piccolo and roshi blow up the moon in a matter of seconds or less. Putting the fighters, with that feat alone at FTL speeds.

If we're not going to make inferences, how the hell are we supposed to gauge them at all?

It sounds like you're not really willing to listen to any type of argument, mathematical, inferential, or even blatant statements like this

Spoiler:

Or Beers traveling across galaxies in a matter of 30 minutes.

It sounds like the only thing that will convince you is a literal statement like this " I Akira Toriyama hereby announce that Z fighters move faster than light, and YES, I fully realize what I'm saying and what it implies, both mathematically and scientifically."

But obviously that's ridiculous.... so....

[Kamiccolo9]

Well, if you're going to pick and choose who's eye sight counts, especially when you're discounting people with god-like eyesight.(roshi) I don't even know what to say...

As for Buu missing against (the H-word), again, you're picking and choosing when he's being "held back." It's so clear that it's gag it's not funny. Even Goku says "Good job (the H-word)!"

As for ignoring the implications of a feat because "AT might not have thought of that." that's moronic. That's like saying X superhero didn't really blow up the planet, the author didn't really expect that to be taken that way.

It's crystal clear that Piccolo and roshi blow up the moon in a matter of seconds or less. Putting the fighters, with that feat alone at FTL speeds.

If we're not going to make inferences, how the hell are we supposed to gauge them at all?

It sounds like you're not really willing to listen to any type of argument, mathematical, inferential, or even blatant statements like this

Spoiler:

Or Beers traveling across galaxies in a matter of 30 minutes.

It sounds like the only thing that will convince you is a literal statement like this " I Akira Toriyama hereby announce that Z fighters move faster than light, and YES, I fully realize what I'm saying and what it implies, both mathematically and scientifically."

But obviously that's ridiculous.... so....

Yes, I'm picking and choosing, because you have to. If Roshi cannot see Goku and Piccolo, yet the Tournament Announcer and an entire Earthling audience can watch SSJ Goten and Trunks, then there is an inconsistency. Both cannot work. So I take the more recent one, and consider the former to be either a mistake, a gag, or a retcon.

Goku's an idiot, and Buu starts convulsing and spitting out Mr. Buu on the very next page. It's clear that Mr. Buu caused that.

I'm not saying that Toriyama didn't think of that. I'm saying that he didn't sit down with a calculator and formulate a consistent set of physics for the DB universe, nor did he make an effort to ensure that it followed real life physics. He didn't care. He was just trying to sell fun stories.

Given Toriyama's recent track record, I doubt I'd accept even that

As for picking and choosing, you don't seem to understand that you are picking and choosing what real-life physics to apply to Dragon Ball. If the characters must be moving faster than light due to how their actions in the manga would translate into real life physics, then why aren't any of the other effects of FTL movement shown? This is a world where magic exists, "normal" people can train themselves to jump dozens of feet in the air, Ki is a thing, and a magical wish granting dragon formed from gathering magical balls created by bipedal slug people exist. Real life physics don't apply in the Dragon World; it wasn't designed that way.

Also, Freeza's attack isn't light, anymore than the Makkakansappo, the Kamehameha, or the Genki Dama are. It's ki. Light isn't solid, nor can it contain a solid mass like Goku.

[The Monkey King]

Well if we're going to go by strictly what was shown in the manga, Goku was FTL in the 22nd BT:

Spoiler:

Taiyo-ken
[taiyou-ken; lit. "Fist of the Sun"]

A Tsuru-sen School technique. Tenshinhan first used it during his fight with Goku at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budoukai [he actually first uses it against Jackie Chun]. Gathering ki in his upper body, he converts it to light energy and radiates it out in front of his face. This is used to retreat from battle by blinding the opponent's eyes. The amount of light is connected to the strength of the person's ki, and the light source will become stronger the more ki the user has. Goku was the first person from outside the Tsuru-sen School to use this technique.

Goku outran a ray of light and grabbed Roshi's glasses.

[White Oni]

Again, you're using a freaking gag scene, in which the announcer DODGES A KMHMH over countless scenes in DB and DBZ that indicate otherwise... How you don't see this as being silly is beyond me.

The issue here is that you're looking at things that don't happen (at least not anywhere near consistently) in ANY form of comics. DC and marvel included. First of all, scientifically there's no such thing as FTL speed. But no ones ever questions it because it's just a common trope in comics now. the same applies to the lack of sonic booms in all comics.(Which would occur even if goku moved at the speed of sound, which he clearly does.)
These sorts of things we don't expect from comic writers or mangakas.

We just accept them for what they are and try our best to make sense of them in relation to how things work in the real world.

But it's undeniable that one of the feats shown in DB and DBZ are blasts that leave earth and reach far out into space and blow up things like the moon in a matter of seconds.

This is undeniable.

So the logical conclusion to be made is that when these sorts of blasts are dodged, the dodger is moving faster than the blast. It's simple logic, no one is asking anyone to accept complex string theory here.

As for Goku's escape from frieza's attack,
OF COURSE IT'S NOT LITERAL LIGHT. That would be freaking stupid. No, the reason it's a feat is because Goku moves out of the blast's radius in a single instant and is completely unscathed.
You clearly have no idea how fast one would have to be to do that.
Piccolo was right in saying that Goku was a God.(at least in respects to how insane his speed was)

[Bullza]

Ok so let's have a look (I don't know if any of these have been brought up already).

During Goku's with Krillin he zipped around so fast that even Master Roshi (who could machine gun bullets) couldn't see him. Tien said that even he can barely see him. He said he hit Krillin 8 times and the humans thought that Krillin just fell out of bounds from surprise which is why they thought it was disappointing.

During Goku's fight with Tien again he did the same trick and moved that fast that it appeared as though he'd disappeared to the announcer.

Tien pummelled Goku with a bunch of blows that Roshi said were like a machine gun, so of course faster than humans could see.

Later on while they were fighting for real the announcer said "They are striking with such tremendous speed that we can't see their movements with our naked eyes."

When Tien was about to use the Solar Flare Goku grabbed Roshi's that quick that he had no idea what had happened.

Goku could move his arms that fast that even to Krillin it looked as though Goku has six arms.

During their rematch while they were fighting Roshi commented that they disappeared and the announcer said "We can only hear their sounds" He later said they'd disappeared again. While Krillin was watching the fight Chi Chi said "You mean you can see em?"

During Goku's fight with Piccolo the announcer again said that Goku had disappeared. Much later on they went at it and none of them could see it including Kami.

And that's about it.

[Kamiccolo9]

Again, you're using a freaking gag scene, in which the announcer DODGES A KMHMH over countless scenes in DB and DBZ that indicate otherwise... How you don't see this as being silly is beyond me.

The issue here is that you're looking at things that don't happen (at least not anywhere near consistently) in ANY form of comics. DC and marvel included. First of all, scientifically there's no such things as FTL speed. But no ones ever questions it because it's just a common trope in comics now. the same applies to the lack of sonic booms in all comics.(Which would occur even if goku moved at the speed of sound, which he clearly does.)
These sorts of things we don't expect from comic writers or mangakas.

We just accept them for what they are and try our best to make sense of them in relation to how things work in the real world.

But it's undeniable that one of the feats shown in DB and DBZ are blasts that leave earth and reach far out into space and blow up things like the moon in a matter of seconds.

This is undeniable.

So the logical conclusion to be made is that when these sorts of blasts are dodged, the dodger is moving faster than the blast. It's simple logic, no one is asking anyone to accept complex string theory here.

As for Goku's escape from Freeza's attack,
OF COURSE IT'S NOT LITERAL LIGHT. That would be freaking stupid. No, the reason it's a feat is because Goku moves out of the blast's radius in a single instant and is completely unscathed.
You clearly have no idea how fast one would have to be to do that.
Piccolo was right in saying that Goku was a God.(at least in respects to how insane his speed was)

Nothing indicates that that is a gag scene. It is treated as entirely serious by everyone involved, and unless you're indicating that the entire fight was a gag scene, it still doesn't negate the fact the audience was able to watch the whole fight. You even admitted yourself earlier that calling this a gag scene was a copout, but you seem to be getting agitated over this. Calm down.

DC actually does explain why things like sonic booms do not occur. For most characters, it's attributed to the Speed Force preventing damage from occurring, and for Kryptonians, their aura is what holds the area they make contact with together. It's also why Superman can lift buildings without them collapsing under their own weight.

So, basically, you are doing what you accuse me of doing, and picking and choosing what real life physics to apply to Dragon Ball.

Funny that you bring up the moon. Rocketman, a member on these forums, did the math, and it showed that due to the curvature of the Earth and the moon or something like that, the Dragon Ball moon is much closer to Earth than the real life one. Yet Akira Toriyama said in an interview that it is the same distance from Earth as the real life moon. So here's another instance when what is drawn doesn't match what actually happened. And of course, this is another instance where real life physics are ignored, as there are no gravitational cataclysms or tidal effects caused by the moon's destruction. So, even here, you have to pick and choose what real life physics to apply, and you have the author saying that despite what it looks like in the manga, it is actually much different.

Also, you don't have to be faster than an incoming projectile in order to dodge it. I box, and I'm definitely not as fast as an incoming fist, but if I see it coming, and am capable of predicting the trajectory, then I am capable of dodging it.

As for your god comment, I am an avid reader of Rurouni Kenshin, and much is made in that manga about the main character's ultimate attack possessing "beyond godlike speed." Does that mean he is actually faster than a god? Of course not. It's a figure of speech.

And as for me not knowing how fast something would have to be to dodge an explosion, you're right. I don't, and I seriously, seriously doubt that Toriyama does either. It's irrelevant, because we don't know how fast ki is, or whether it even has a standard speed.

Dragon Ball was never meant to be consistent with real life physics. You can attempt to make it so, but the evidence doesn't hold up, because when you attempt to analyze the entirety of the manga in that way, it all falls apart.

As for you mentioning Beerus and Whis earlier, they are unknown degrees stronger than anyone else in the series, so it's entirely possible for them to be faster than light. But that doesn't support any of the manga characters, since we have no way of knowing the exact difference in their strengths.

Well if we're going to go by strictly what was shown in the manga, Goku was FTL in the 22nd BT:

Spoiler:

Taiyo-ken
[taiyou-ken; lit. "Fist of the Sun"]

A Tsuru-sen School technique. Tenshinhan first used it during his fight with Goku at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budoukai [he actually first uses it against Jackie Chun]. Gathering ki in his upper body, he converts it to light energy and radiates it out in front of his face. This is used to retreat from battle by blinding the opponent's eyes. The amount of light is connected to the strength of the person's ki, and the light source will become stronger the more ki the user has. Goku was the first person from outside the Tsuru-sen School to use this technique.

Goku outran a ray of light and grabbed Roshi's glasses.

I fail to see how Goten and Trunks' entire fight can be considered a gag scene, yet that can't? An even if it's not, if Goku was able to defeat it here, then why weren't any of the fighters who cornered Cell, all of which, except maybe Trunks, I guess, unable to react fast enough to cover their eyes after hearing Cell shout the name of the attack?

Ok so let's have a look (I don't know if any of these have been brought up already).

During Goku's with Krillin he zipped around so fast that even Master Roshi (who could machine gun bullets) couldn't see him. Tenshinhan said that even he can barely see him. He said he hit Krillin 8 times and the humans thought that Krillin just fell out of bounds from surprise which is why they thought it was disappointing.

During Goku's fight with Tenshinhan again he did the same trick and moved that fast that it appeared as though he'd disappeared to the announcer.

Tenshinhan pummelled Goku with a bunch of blows that Roshi said were like a machine gun, so of course faster than humans could see.

Later on while they were fighting for real the announcer said "They are striking with such tremendous speed that we can't see their movements with our naked eyes."

When Tenshinhan was about to use the Solar Flare Goku grabbed Roshi's that quick that he had no idea what had happened.

Goku could move his arms that fast that even to Krillin it looked as though Goku has six arms.

During their rematch while they were fighting Roshi commented that they disappeared and the announcer said "We can only hear their sounds" He later said they'd disappeared again. While Krillin was watching the fight Chi Chi said "You mean you can see em?"

During Goku's fight with Piccolo the announcer again said that Goku had disappeared. Much later on they went at it and none of them could see it including Kami.

And that's about it.

The thing is, though, in between all of these fights, there were other ones that were between superhumans that were fully able to be watched by normal Earthlings.
And even throughout these fights, there were times when the announcer could keep up. So, are they suppressed to a level under that of Roshi and Krillin during the 21st Budokai? Or is this just Toriyama invoking the Rule of Cool for the big fights? Seeing as normal people are capable of keeping up with much stronger fighters later on, such as at the Cell Games, Bulma on Namek, and in the Buu Arc.

[White Oni]

You're talking about 2 comicbook explanations that sprout up YEARS after their conception and certainly during an entirely different age from Dragonball, which, at the time was written assuming the audience would accept the same tropes and themes from other comic books of it's time.

Also, as you said yourself, that's only 2 superheros, superman and the flash. yet there are still hundreds more that don't have these later tacked on explanations, YET, the comic community does not question it, as it's CLEARLY a common trope that doesn't need answering.

As for calculations of the moon from the earth... really? That would rely on so many damn assumptions it's hilarious. I wouldn't respect those calcs at all. What we do know is that the moon is the same as ours, in terms of distance. and we know how fast a blast would need to be to hit the moon in the amount of time it piccolo did in DBZ.

Let me just ask you 1 damn thing.

Can a human see frieza's death ray?

If so, then z fighters move faster than the human eye can see (can't believe I'm even typing this when there's literal text that confirms this)

If no, then rather than admitting a few scene are nonsensical gag. You throw the entire shows logic out the window and enter a realm of logic where the announcer can doge Goten's ka-me-ha-me-ha blast.

[Kamiccolo9]

You're talking about 2 comicbook explanations that sprout up YEARS after their conception and certainly during an entirely different age from Dragonball, which, at the time was written assuming the audience would accept the same tropes and themes from other comic books of it's time.

Also, as you said yourself, that's only 2 superheros, superman and the flash. yet there are still hundreds more that don't have these later tacked on explanations, YET, the comic community does not question it, as it's CLEARLY a common trope that doesn't need answering.

As for calculations of the moon from the earth... really? That would rely on so many damn assumptions it's hilarious. I wouldn't respect those calcs at all. What we do know is that the moon is the same as ours, in terms of distance. and we know how fast a blast would need to be to hit the moon in the amount of time it piccolo did in DBZ.

Let me just ask you 1 damn thing.

Can a human see Freeza's death ray?

If so, then z fighters move faster than the human eye can see (can't believe I'm even typing this when there's literal text that confirms this)

If no, then rather than admitting a few scene are nonsensical gag. You throw the entire shows logic out the window and enter a realm of logic where the announcer can doge Goten's ka-me-ha-me-ha blast.

Again, lose the attitude, please. If you're not prepared to have someone disagree with you, don't bother posting.

I was giving a few examples. I'm not about to delve into hundreds of DC characters who has super speed, although "speed force" covers a majority of them. And using hyperbole and figures of speech outdates Dragon Ball by millenia, so I'm not sure what your point is there.

Concerning Rocketman's calculations, I don't claim to have that kind of mathematical knowledge, but they've been more or less accepted here for as long as I've been here, and I have no reason to doubt them. And, have you ever seen the moon look as close as it was to Piccolo in the Saiyan Arc? It's obviously either larger than ours, or closer, if you go by the artwork.

Nitpicking, but "human" is a vague term in Dragon Ball. Krillin, Goku, and Ginyu are all humans, according to Toriyama. The term you are looking for is Earthling. Learning is fun

A normal Earthling probably couldn't see the Death Beam, seeing as no one except Vegeta was capable of seeing it in that part of the manga. Yet, in this supposed gag scene (which is in no way portrayed as such) everyone saw the blasts. Same in the Mighty Mask/18 fight. And in the Goku vs Cell fight. In the Buu Arc, Piccolo is unable to dodge Dabura's spit, even though the Supreme Ki has enough time to shout out a warning to him to dodge it between Dabura spitting and the spit connecting (henceforth, this is known as the "Spit Speed Defense" ) For every speed feat you show, I can provide another that contradicts it, and we could keep at this forever, since Toriyama didn't care enough to maintain any kind of consistency throughout his work.

Seriously though, lighten up. No need to get defensive. I'm not even really disagreeing with you; I'm just saying that it's vague and inconsistent enough that multiple options are valid, and there isn't any one "correct" viewpoint. No matter what you do, you have to selectively pick and choose, value and devalue parts of the manga over other parts. I've actually enjoyed this so far; it's been a while sense I've had a debate like this.

[Bullza]

The thing is, though, in between all of these fights, there were other ones that were between superhumans that were fully able to be watched by normal Earthlings.

Of course there are, the announcer saw Tien knee Roshi in the back of the head. The announcer is there to explain things to the audience but also to the reader, when characters are shown to go full out is when the announcer is there to explain to us that these guys are so fast we can't see them.

At best chalk it up as inconsistent, they said themselves several times that they could move not just faster than humans could see but even people like Roshi and Tien. It's not like it was a one off.

Even during the Goku-Cell fight the TV guy asked where they'd gone because they moved so fast.

[Kamiccolo9]

The thing is, though, in between all of these fights, there were other ones that were between superhumans that were fully able to be watched by normal Earthlings.

Of course there are, the announcer saw Tenshinhan knee Roshi in the back of the head. The announcer is there to explain things to the audience but also to the reader, when characters are shown to go full out is when the announcer is there to explain to us that these guys are so fast we can't see them.

At best chalk it up as inconsistent, they said themselves several times that they could move not just faster than humans could see but even people like Roshi and Tenshinhan. It's not like it was a one off.

Even during the Goku-Cell fight the TV guy asked where they'd gone because they moved so fast.

Of course it's inconsistent. That's what I've been saying the whole time!

Earlier in the Goku-Cell fight, Goku and Cell exchange blows, engage in aerial combat, and Goku fires a Kamehameha which Cell deflects. The Announcer and Mr. Satan see this, and have a quick discussion on how awesome/fake it is.

[White Oni]

Sorry about the attitude, though I'm convinced that any attitude I put into my posts to you, were probably amplified by text barriers and not by intention.

I'm aware that there are multiple opinions, and I agree that there always will be. However, when trying to form an understanding of feats, like we are for this thread, it's important to look for the opinions that make the most rational sense.

As for super heros and speed force, I'm not trying to suggest that things have never been explained. Just that there was a time, and it's somewhat that time now, when comic tropes excepted authors from having to explain certain things scientifically for them to be accepted. And DB and DBZ were written in that time's prime.
So we shouldn't be shocked by the absence of or expect sonic booms every second or and explanation for FTL speeds.

What does frustrate me is how clear and obvious it is that certain aspects of the DB universe exists, like Z fighters being able to fight at (at least) faster than human sight, yet you toss all those serious and important parts of the story away for a select few goofy moments that seem to contradict them, if taken seriously.

I mean, just listen to what you're saying, before you ask someone to "calm down."

You're repeatedly suggesting to everyone that we ought to take the announcer's KMHMH dodge seriously... It sorta sounds like you're trolling and that's something that bothers people and gets their jimmies riled.

[Kamiccolo9]

Sorry about the attitude, though I'm convinced that any attitude I put into my posts to you, were probably amplified by text barriers and not by intention.

I'm aware that there are multiple opinions, and I agree that there always will be. However, when trying to form an understanding of feats, like we are for this thread, it's important to look for the opinions that make the most rational sense.

As for super heros and speed force, I'm not trying to suggest that things have never been explained. Just that there was a time, and it's somewhat that time now, when comic tropes excepted authors from having to explain certain things scientifically for them to be accepted. And DB and DBZ were written in that time's prime.
So we shouldn't be shocked by the absence of or expect sonic booms every second or and explanation for FTL speeds.

What does frustrate me is how clear and obvious it is that certain aspects of the DB universe exists, like Z fighters being able to fight at (at least) faster than human sight, yet you toss all those serious and important parts of the story away for a select few goofy moments that seem to contradict them, if taken seriously.

I mean, just listen to what you're saying, before you ask someone to "calm down."

You're repeatedly suggesting to everyone that we ought to take the announcer's KMHMH dodge seriously... It sorta sounds like you're trolling and that's something that bothers people and gets their jimmies riled.

Maybe. If so, I apologize for misinterpreting you.
Moving on, while I agree there needs to be some grounds for rationality, Dragon Ball, in the beginning, and when most of the feats you are bringing up occur, was a gag manga. There wasn't meant to be any kind of coherent physics logic. Ironically, in the Z portion, as the series became more out of this world, it also became more consistently logical. I don't know if you spend much time with battle powers, but this same reason is why pre-Raditz battle powers are so troublesome; the feats aren't consistent with each other.

I understand that these tropes exist. What I don't accept is that I or anyone else must apply certain real world physics, since there are already plenty that we have to subvert in order to have the story told anyway. Sure, you can... but what's inherently rational in our world might not be in the Dragon World, and vice versa. For example, the aforementioned wish granting dragon creating bipedal slug people, and the normal Earthlings, like Namu, who have trained themselves to jump dozens of feet in the air.

I have provided plenty of "serious" moments where these fights can be seen. You are just picking up on the "gag" one, which even you admitted was a shaky defense and a copout. Also, compare these "gag" moments with the ones in early Dragon Ball, or the ones in the Gotenks/Buu fight. It's not too hard to tell what's a gag and what isn't.

[Hellspawn28]

Wasn't Goku running from lighting only in a filler? Even if it did happen in the manga, it's nothing special. I seen other characters doge lighting like Spider-Man and I see no one ever call him able to move at light speed.

[Kamiccolo9]

Wasn't Goku running from lighting only in a filler? Even if it did happen in the manga, it's nothing special. I seen other characters doge lighting like Spider-Man and I see no one ever call him able to move at light speed.

Yes, and I made the same mistake thinking that that was what he was referring to, but he's actually talking about Popo's quote that Goku must be fast like lightning in order to complete his training. The quote is in the manga, or at least in Viz.

[Hellspawn28]

I think Solar System busting is the highest that DBZ characters will reach by the end of DBZ. I think Galaxy busting or higher is just fan wank.

[White Oni]

I think Solar System busting is the highest that DBZ characters will reach by the end of DBZ. I think Galaxy busting or higher is just fan wank.

Galaxy busting is an absurdity. Look up how many stars are in one galaxy, it'll make you laugh at the idea of a galaxy buster.

But I think it's safe to assume they can do far more than solar bust. Since they're stronger than cell.

[Herms]

"like a god" Oh AT, humble humble AT.

For what it's worth, in Japanese Piccolo just says Goku and Freeza are "monsters".

[dbzfan7]

It is kinda hard picturing everyone being FTL. Reflexes perhaps, but flight speed that's hard to picture without being a higher tier character.

Destructive wise I'd say no more then Solar System+ for SSJ2 Beyond. However considering how much empty space there is until you'd find another Solar system, it's unlikely they're any higher even in higher forms.

Strength wise I find very inconsistent. I think the 40 tons thing like others pointed out is silly. I take it perhaps more as punching rather than true lifting strength. It's much harder to punch with weights than lift them.

[Hitiro]

Solar System busting isn't that ridiculous considering the size of the universe. It isn't exactly large.