Does Vegeta get to go to Heaven now?

[hleV]

I kind of like the idea that Vegeta would be judged to going to Hell despite becoming pure hearted (that is not up for contest, is it?); but is that really the case? Or do people who are pure-hearted are automatically spared from being sent to Hell? I mean, what's the point if they have no evil to be cleansed of?

Vegeta is not pure-hearted.

You are incorrect. See Battle of Gods.

Please back your statements with something reliable.

[White Oni]

Vegeta is not pure-hearted.

You are incorrect. See Battle of Gods.

Please back your statements with something reliable.

I mean... look at your own statement right above his...

[rereboy]

Nah. He's killed more people than Mao, Stalin, and Hitler combined, indirectly doomed the universe twice, is prone to going on random killing sprees for no reason, and showed no repentance for any of his evil deeds. He's going straight to Hell, and he can't do anything to ever avoid that fate.

So? He saved the entire universe. That's a lot more people than the ones he killed. As long he keeps having his heart in the right place and gets over himself after the buu saga, he has a chance of redemption and heaven.

[White Oni]

Nah. He's killed more people than Mao, Stalin, and Hitler combined, indirectly doomed the universe twice, is prone to going on random killing sprees for no reason, and showed no repentance for any of his evil deeds. He's going straight to Hell, and he can't do anything to ever avoid that fate.

So? He saved the entire universe. That's a lot more people than the ones he killed. As long he keeps having his heart in the right place and gets over himself after the buu saga, he has a chance of redemption and heaven.

This is pretty much how I see it.

[FoolsGil]

Nah. He's killed more people than Mao, Stalin, and Hitler combined, indirectly doomed the universe twice, is prone to going on random killing sprees for no reason, and showed no repentance for any of his evil deeds. He's going straight to Hell, and he can't do anything to ever avoid that fate.

So? He saved the entire universe. That's a lot more people than the ones he killed. As long he keeps having his heart in the right place and gets over himself after the buu saga, he has a chance of redemption and heaven.

He saved the entire universe from an evil he helped bring upon the world. That pretty much cancels out any good he did.

Another thing, what measure is a life? It cheapens life to say "Well Vegeta took 10^10 lives, but because he saved 20^20 lives, he's deserving of a great afterlife." Those 10^10 lives matter, and saving two lives does not cancel one life that was taken, ever. Of course by this point we're talking less DBZ, and more philosophy, lol.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I kind of like the idea that Vegeta would be judged to going to Hell despite becoming pure hearted (that is not up for contest, is it?); but is that really the case? Or do people who are pure-hearted are automatically spared from being sent to Hell? I mean, what's the point if they have no evil to be cleansed of?

Vegeta is not pure-hearted.

You are incorrect. See Battle of Gods.

It says good hearted, not pure hearted.

[Marco Polo]

It says good hearted, not pure hearted.

Then that's even better for Vegeta's fate.

[rereboy]

He saved the entire universe from an evil he helped bring upon the world. That pretty much cancels out any good he did.

Another thing, what measure is a life? It cheapens life to say "Well Vegeta took 10^10 lives, but because he saved 20^20 lives, he's deserving of a great afterlife." Those 10^10 lives matter, and saving two lives does not cancel one life that was taken, ever. Of course by this point we're talking less DBZ, and more philosophy, lol.

He indirectly helped Buu, he wasn't actually trying to help Buu, he just wanted to be stronger and fight Goku, and then he sacrificed his own life, knowing fully well that he was going to hell, to rectify that mistake. THOSE actions cancel each other out, IMO. A big mistake VS the ultimate sacrifice.

AFTER all that he saved the universe alongside Goku, risking his very existence since Goku warned him that if he died while he was already dead he would literally vanish from existence.

Also, I forgot to mention earlier, but people like Hitler and Stalin are worse than Vegeta simply due to the fact that they knew and had seen better. Vegeta only knew the Saiyan lifestyle and the lifestyle of beings like Freeza and beings that worked for beings like Freeza. Vegeta was worse than a normal Saiyan, a true bastard even by Saiyan standards, but it doesn't change the fact that all the lifestyle he knew was Saiyan-like. Like you said, its not just a matter of numbers.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

It says good hearted, not pure hearted.

Then how does he donate energy to Goku to become a SSJ God when it's said the ritual needs ki from pure-hearted Saiyans?

[RandomGuy96]

Nah. He's killed more people than Mao, Stalin, and Hitler combined, indirectly doomed the universe twice, is prone to going on random killing sprees for no reason, and showed no repentance for any of his evil deeds. He's going straight to Hell, and he can't do anything to ever avoid that fate.

So? He saved the entire universe. That's a lot more people than the ones he killed. As long he keeps having his heart in the right place and gets over himself after the buu saga, he has a chance of redemption and heaven.

He "saved" the universe from disasters HE caused. Fighting Goku knowing full well it would release Buu, helping Cell become complete, allowing the androids to be released, becoming a killer himself, etc. At the very, very best, that would make up for that specific evil deed while leaving his record otherwise untouched. He's done too much evil to make it in.

He indirectly helped Buu, he wasn't actually trying to help Buu, he just wanted to be stronger and fight Goku, and then he sacrificed his own life, knowing fully well that he was going to hell, to rectify that mistake. THOSE actions cancel each other out, IMO. A big mistake VS the ultimate sacrifice.

AFTER all that he saved the universe alongside Goku, risking his very existence since Goku warned him that if he died while he was already dead he would literally vanish from existence.

That's not a good deed at all. It's simple self-preservation. Not to mention that he refused to use Potara or bring Gohan to easily deal with Buu, so even when he was "saving" the universe, he was being a total asshole about it, and risking it for fun. That is not someone who is doing a good deed.

Also, I forgot to mention earlier, but people like Hitler and Stalin are worse than Vegeta simply due to the fact that they knew and had seen better. Vegeta only knew the Saiyan lifestyle and the lifestyle of beings like Freeza and beings that worked for beings like Freeza. Vegeta was worse than a normal Saiyan, a true bastard even by Saiyan standards, but it doesn't change the fact that all the lifestyle he knew was Saiyan-like. Like you said, its not just a matter of numbers.

He continued being a ruthless killer even after being released from Freeza's control. Heck, he murdered hundreds of people and knowingly released the most horrific and destructive demon in the history of the universe after seven years on Earth, and never expressed any ounce of remorse for the millions if not billions he wiped out. Not even a little.

[Zephyr]

To be fair, knowingly contributing to the release of the Androids and Buu is on Goku as well, and we don't count those as points towards him being evil, do we?

[RandomGuy96]

To be fair, knowingly contributing to the release of the Androids and Buu is on Goku as well, and we don't count those as points towards him being evil, do we?

I do. Plus, I'd say Vegeta has more blame in the latter case at least, since he initiated the whole thing.

[Zephyr]

Fair enough.

[mAcChaos]

They didn't think Buu would be anything but a small fry because of how weak Babidi's men were.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It says good hearted, not pure hearted.

Then how does he donate energy to Goku to become a SSJ God when it's said the ritual needs ki from pure-hearted Saiyans?

Because it doesn't need Saiyans with a pure heart, it needs Saiyan's with a righteous heart. They don't have to be pure, just good guys, which Vegeta is at that point.

[rereboy]

He "saved" the universe from disasters HE caused. Fighting Goku knowing full well it would release Buu, helping Cell become complete, allowing the androids to be released, becoming a killer himself, etc. At the very, very best, that would make up for that specific evil deed while leaving his record otherwise untouched. He's done too much evil to make it in.

See my next post.

That's not a good deed at all. It's simple self-preservation. Not to mention that he refused to use Potara or bring Gohan to easily deal with Buu, so even when he was "saving" the universe, he was being a total asshole about it, and risking it for fun. That is not someone who is doing a good deed.

Not at all. He didn't have to fight Buu at all. He could just have continued to fight Goku, which was his obsession. However, realizing how powerful Buu really was, he realized his mistake and he got over himself and agreed to not continue to fight Goku and try to stop Buu instead. Also, after realizing that he could not beat Buu in a fight, he could just have tried to leave and try to get off the planet for example. Instead, he sacrificed his own life, knowing that he was going to hell and have his memories erased, just to attempt to kill Buu. That's basically the very opposite of self-preservation and the greatest sacrifice he could ever do (letting go of his rematch with Goku and sacrificing his life knowing what his destiny was). There's no greater sacrifice that Vegeta could do to try and set things right.

Furthermore, Vegeta only refused the potara when he knew they had a shot of winning without them (by fulfilling Vegetto's plan of rescuing the kids while inside Buu, and facing Kid Buu who was much weaker than the previous Buus). Risky moves, but even Goku ended up agreeing with that (so Goku is not good then?). When they didn't have a shot, he agreed to use the Potara. Also, Vegeta simply believed that the Genki Dama was a better plan to defeat Buu, presumably, even though this isn't stated, because Gohan and Gotenks had already failed to take down versions of Buu weaker than they were and Buu could just absorb them again, becoming more powerful again (and Goku also agreed with his plan, so Goku is not good again?).

He continued being a ruthless killer even after being released from Freeza's control. Heck, he murdered hundreds of people and knowingly released the most horrific and destructive demon in the history of the universe after seven years on Earth, and never expressed any ounce of remorse for the millions if not billions he wiped out. Not even a little.

Saiyans were not supposed to feel remorse when they conquer other planets and kill weaklings. Do you think the Vikings felt remorse when they killed, pillaged and raped? That's just how they were and all they knew. Vegeta was the same. From birth, that's simply all he knew. Of course, Vegeta was clearly worse than the average saiyan, as seen from the way he treated Nappa, but that doesn't change the fact that unlike people like Hitler, who should know better, Vegeta didn't really know anything else. That only started to change after he spent several years on Earth and gained a family. Only then he started to know other ways to think and live.

[hleV]

Not at all. He didn't have to fight Buu at all. He could just have continued to fight Goku, which was his obsession. However, realizing how powerful Buu really was, he realized his mistake and he got over himself and agreed to not continue to fight Goku and try to stop Buu instead.

Goku couldn't focus on his fight against Vegeta, what's why Vegeta went after Boo.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Not at all. He didn't have to fight Buu at all. He could just have continued to fight Goku, which was his obsession. However, realizing how powerful Buu really was, he realized his mistake and he got over himself and agreed to not continue to fight Goku and try to stop Buu instead.

Goku couldn't focus on his fight against Vegeta, what's why Vegeta went after Boo.

He also said that he wanted to take care of Boo because he freed him.

[RandomGuy96]

Not at all. He didn't have to fight Buu at all. He could just have continued to fight Goku, which was his obsession. However, realizing how powerful Buu really was, he realized his mistake and he got over himself and agreed to not continue to fight Goku and try to stop Buu instead.

Buu would kill them both if they didn't stop fighting. Goku told him as much. It wouldn't simply be evil to continue fighting, it would be beyond pointless.

Also, after realizing that he could not beat Buu in a fight, he could just have tried to leave and try to get off the planet for example. Instead, he sacrificed his own life, knowing that he was going to hell and have his memories erased, just to attempt to kill Buu.

Get off how? Do they have spaceships just lying around? I don't remember that.

Anyway, again, even if this was a good thing (I thought you were talking about the other time he fought Buu btw), it doesn't make a difference. At the very very best, it'd make up for what he just did. Even then, I don't think it did.

Furthermore, Vegeta only refused the potara when he knew they had a shot of winning without them (by fulfilling Vegetto's plan of rescuing the kids while inside Buu, and facing Kid Buu who was much weaker than the previous Buus).

So Goku and Vegeta had a chance individually against Buuhan?

And I'm not seeing how that makes a difference? They had a shot, maybe, but still had a very high chance of failing. To refuse the surefire way of saving everyone and risking the universe purely for selfish reasons- while acting to save yourself- is NOT a good deed.

Risky moves, but even Goku ended up agreeing with that (so Goku is not good then?).

No, no he's not. Or at least, he's not in the Buu arc. Pretty dang bad, actually.

When they didn't have a shot, he agreed to use the Potara.

No, he didn't. He refused because he's a whiny bitch; Goku had to talk him into it.

Also, Vegeta simply believed that the Genki Dama was a better plan to defeat Buu, presumably, even though this isn't stated, because Gohan and Gotenks had already failed to take down versions of Buu weaker than they were and Buu could just absorb them again, becoming more powerful again (and Goku also agreed with his plan, so Goku is not good again?).

Nope. Vegeta explicitly stated that the reason he went with that plan was because he wanted the Earthlings to fend for themselves... even though he caused the problem. You're ignoring the manga and making stuff up to make Vegeta look better.

On Buu absorbing Gohan: that whole explanation has never held any weight. The chances of Buu being able to absorb Gohan are basically non-existent. Gohan had already fallen for that, knows it's coming (it requires the opponent to be off guard and still), and, most importantly, wouldn't even have to fight Buu, just rush in and destroy him with one blast, so fast that Buu wouldn't even be able to see him. There's nothing Buu could do to prevent it, and Goku/Vegeta seemingly knew it, as Goku recommends bringing Gohan, treats Vegeta like a crazy man for not wanting to, and Vegeta gives his reasons for not wanting to bring him, and they explicitly have nothing to do with his supposed inability to get the job done.

Saiyans were not supposed to feel remorse when they conquer other planets and kill weaklings. Do you think the Vikings felt remorse when they killed, pillaged and raped? That's just how they were and all they knew. Vegeta was the same. From birth, that's simply all he knew. Of course, Vegeta was clearly worse than the average saiyan, as seen from the way he treated Nappa, but that doesn't change the fact that unlike people like Hitler, who should know better, Vegeta didn't really know anything else. That only started to change after he spent several years on Earth and gained a family. Only then he started to know other ways to think and live.

Vikings didn't kill entire planets.

No, because even after he learned better by spending all that time in Earth, he remained a deranged psychopathic killer. He's hardly done enough to make up for the millions he's murdered. If he gets into Heaven, the standards are really fucking low.

[90sDBZ]

Here's an idea. What if Piccolo lied to Vegeta so that his sacrifice would be a truly selfless sacrifice and he'd have a shot at keeping his body?