Piccolo is far stronger than East Kaioshin

[DannyDBZfanforever]

(this topic does not take into consideration information from the Daizenshuu)

In the manga, Piccolo surrenders in martial arts tournament to East Kaioshin, which according Piccolo, Kaioshin was in another dimension - it does not specify what dimension was that, whether it was power or divinity. Here we can conclude that: Kaioshin is indeed more powerful than Piccolo.

So - East Kaioshin > Piccolo

But reading a few chapters later, when the battles begin at Babidi's ship. East Kaioshin is full of fear when Vegeta goes facing Pocus.

Pocus took a beating from Vegeta and he thought that increased tenfold gravity would be enough for him to secure a win against Vegeta. As a character who is stronger than Piccolo, this same character is afraid of a guy who thinks that an increase of 10 times the gravity of earth, would be enough to secure a win against Vegeta. It is an absolute contradiction or he (Kaioshin) is not as strong as he seems. I'm more the second hypothesis.

Other evidence, is when East Kaioshin will shake hands with Goku, Kaioshin says with complete conviction that he could never defeat Goku (Goku in his base form).

But in the manga it is clear that the Saiyans in their base form are inferior in power to Piccolo, in fact the Saiyans in base are weaker than Freeza - hence the reaction of Goku, when Kaioshin said that any of the other Kaioshins could defeat Freeza with one blow (power or direct physical attack, it does not matter in this case).

By this case: Piccolo > Base Saiyans > East Kaioshin.

Other evidence that allows me to conclude that Kaioshin is weaker than Piccolo is as follows - in chapter 459 of the manga, Kaioshin has huge doubts that he will defeat Babidi or not. He just stands there looking and in the chapter 460, when Babidi Dabra asks if he can defeat Gohan, Dabra replies that he can "easily defeat that trash." Piccolo defeat Babidi with one simple stroke.

It's clear that Piccolo is much more powerful than East Kaioshin and the information that appears on Daizenshuu (the biography of East Kaioshin, who claims he is more powerful than Piccolo) is not true and is contradictory against Manga itself.

In conclusion: Piccolo is far stronger than Kaioshin. Kaioshin is nowhere near the level of power of Piccolo

[Herms]

In the manga, Piccolo surrenders in martial arts tournament to East Kaioshin, which according Piccolo, Kaioshin was in another dimension - it does not specify what dimension was that, whether it was power or divinity. Here we can conclude that: Kaioshin is indeed more powerful than Piccolo.

The big problem with this whole debate is that people treat “Piccolo resigns because he thinks Kaioshin is way stronger than him” and “Piccolo resigns because he thinks Kaioshin is a high-ranking god” as if they’re mutually incompatible, but there’s no reason to think that. In fact, the storyline really only makes sense if you treat those things as going hand in hand. I mean, let’s play along and assume that when Piccolo says “our dimensions are too different”, he’s just saying that Kaioshin is a high-ranking god:

*Piccolo resigns the match*
Goku: "That bad, Piccolo?"
Piccolo: "Yeah…He’s a high-ranking god."
Kuririn: "You’ve got to be kidding! I’m gonna have to fight him next!"

Even like this, it’s clear that “high-ranking god” is synonymous with “super-duper strong”. Otherwise, Piccolo’s response to Goku is a complete non-sequitur, since Goku obviously isn’t asking about how high Piccolo’s match opponent sits on the cosmic totem pole. He wants to know if the guy’s really too strong for Piccolo to even try fighting. And Kuririn’s response to Piccolo’s line wouldn’t make sense either. Kuririn’s not fused with any former Gods of Earth, why should he be terrified at the prospect of fighting a high-ranking god, unless he thinks it means he’s going to get his ass kicked?

Of course, like I’ve said often enough, Piccolo’s “our dimensions are too different” is just a bog-standard way of saying “boy that guy’s way stronger than me” and gets used that way many times throughout the series. You could try and twist it to be talking about rank rather than strength, the same way you could with phrases like “he’s head and shoulders above me” or “he’s in a different league”, but it’s kind of a stretch and ultimately doesn’t even change anything, as I’ve tried to demonstrate above.

But reading a few chapters later, when the battles begin at Babidi's ship. East Kaioshin is full of fear when Vegeta goes facing Pocus.

Pocus took a beating from Vegeta and he thought that increased tenfold gravity would be enough for him to secure a win against Vegeta. As a character who is stronger than Piccolo, this same character is afraid of a guy who thinks that an increase of 10 times the gravity of earth, would be enough to secure a win against Vegeta. It is an absolute contradiction or he (Kaioshin) is not as strong as he seems. I'm more the second hypothesis.

I've always been puzzled by the idea that Kaioshin must be weaker than Pui-Pui or Yakon based on his reactions to them. His big thing is insisting that they mustn't underestimate Babidi's fighters (implying that he really has no clear idea exactly how strong Pui-Pui or Yakon are), and that therefore it's best for them to all fight together. So he's afraid to see Vegeta/Goku go up against Pui-Pui/Yakon on their own, and is very surprised at how easily the Saiyans defeat their opponents. This all makes it pretty clear that Kaioshin underestimated the Saiyans, but none of it strikes me as slam dunk evidence for how Kaioshin stacks up against Babidi's guys.

Other evidence, is when East Kaioshin will shake hands with Goku, Kaioshin says with complete conviction that he could never defeat Goku (Goku in his base form).

But in the manga it is clear that the Saiyans in their base form are inferior in power to Piccolo, in fact the Saiyans in base are weaker than Freeza - hence the reaction of Goku, when Kaioshin said that any of the other Kaioshins could defeat Freeza with one blow (power or direct physical attack, it does not matter in this case).

Just to be picky, Kaioshin says that he "lacks confidence" that he can beat Goku. And Kaioshin's shown to know about Super Saiyan, so I'm not sure why Goku being in his base form at the time should factor into things at all. Also not sure how Goku's reaction to "each Kaioshin could defeat Freeza in a single blow" is evidence of anything one way or the other, as far as base Saiyans vs Freeza goes.

Other evidence that allows me to conclude that Kaioshin is weaker than Piccolo is as follows - in chapter 459 of the manga, Kaioshin has huge doubts that he will defeat Babidi or not. He just stands there looking and in the chapter 460, when Babidi Dabra asks if he can defeat Gohan, Dabra replies that he can "easily defeat that trash." Piccolo defeat Babidi with one simple stroke.

I really don't understand where you're getting the idea that Kaioshin has "huge doubts that he will defeat Babidi" from. All Kaioshin ever says is a matter-of-fact "I'll fight Babidi", while he trusts Gohan to handle Dabra. The main bone of contention is whether Gohan can beat Dabra. Babidi even tells Kaioshin that he won't get killed like his father because he's got Dabra with him (though he later says it's because he's got Dabra and he's better at magic than his dad). In fact, back up even further to right after Yakon's death: when Dabra announces that he'll go fight next, Babidi says that if he's defeated, it's all over. So he basically admits that he's screwed without Dabra.

[Blade]

Whilst I do agree that the logical arguments for putting Piccolo below Kaioshin seem a little lurid, and the narrative evidence appears to imply the contrary, I'm not quite convinced with the flow of your reasoning - not least for a basis to disregard that which is published in the Daizenshuu.

For example, in regard to your Babidi point - it's rather explicitly stated that Kaioshin knows him to be physically weak, but is still wary of his magic, which he knows to be quite powerful. That's a notion that's somewhat difficult to argue with, especially given that he is able to hold someone as powerful as Dabra under his spell. In light of that, Piccolo's easy victory against him is sort of meaningless as a strength comparison by which to place him above Kaioshin.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Pocus took a beating from Vegeta and he thought that increased tenfold gravity would be enough for him to secure a win against Vegeta. As a character who is stronger than Piccolo, this same character is afraid of a guy who thinks that an increase of 10 times the gravity of earth, would be enough to secure a win against Vegeta. It is an absolute contradiction or he (Kaioshin) is not as strong as he seems. I'm more the second hypothesis.

Kaioshin just said that they should be cautious and not take any damage because Babidi only chooses the strongest warriors from the universe. He didn't judge Pui Pui & Yakon from their actual power, he judged them from the fact that "if Babidi chose them, they must be strong!".

Other evidence, is when East Kaioshin will shake hands with Goku, Kaioshin says with complete conviction that he could never defeat Goku (Goku in his base form).

Why would he talk about base Goku?

Other evidence that allows me to conclude that Kaioshin is weaker than Piccolo is as follows - in chapter 459 of the manga, Kaioshin has huge doubts that he will defeat Babidi or not. He just stands there looking and in the chapter 460, when Babidi Dabra asks if he can defeat Gohan, Dabra replies that he can "easily defeat that trash." Piccolo defeat Babidi with one simple stroke.

Babidi was dangerous because of his magic, so Kaioshin couldn't predict if he can easily kill him or not.

[Herms]

While we're on the subject, I might as well bring up the Get Out of Jail Free Card I've seen some Japanese fansites use for Daizenshuu 7's "Kaioshin>Piccolo" bit. See, Daizenshuu 7's bio for East Kaioshin says that he's "far stronger than Super Namekian Piccolo". So you could say that Kaioshin's way stronger than Piccolo was immediately after re-merging with God back in the Cell arc, but still weaker than Piccolo is during the Boo arc, and still not technically be contradicting the entry. It's a case of purposefully missing the point, and it's probably easier just to say that Daizenshuu 7's wrong about Kaioshin (if you're so inclined), but I always found it amusing.

[dbgtFO]

Well Piccolo freaked out as soon as Kaioshin revealed he was reading his mind.
I like to think that was how Piccolo concluded he was on a far too different level. That to mind read you have to have a bigger ki than your subject otherwise they would shut you out.
So if Kaioshin was trying to read the mind of SS2 Goku for example, he wouldn't be able to.

So he read Piccolo and Vegeta like open books, because of his vastly superior strength, which was how Piccolo would know he was stronger, whereas the others didn't because he hadn't unleashed his ki yet.

The last time I mentioned this theory, there were no further replies.. hopefully that won't happen again, lol.

[DNA]

I always took this whole thing as being a matter of respect. Part of Piccolo was Kami for many centuries, he must feel a great deal of respect towards a high ranking god as East Kaioshin is. It's not about Kaioshin being stronger than Piccolo, it's about Kaioshin outranking him, so Piccolo forfeits the match out of respect. He felt humbled by the presence of such an illustrious person.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I always took this whole thing as being a matter of respect. Part of Piccolo was Kami for many centuries, he must feel a great deal of respect towards a high ranking god as East Kaioshin is. It's not about Kaioshin being stronger than Piccolo, it's about Kaioshin outranking him, so Piccolo forfeits the match out of respect. He felt humbled by the presence of such an illustrious person.

But he outright admits that Kaioshin is stronger than him, and we never got anything that showed Kaioshin being weaker than he was said to be.

[dbgtFO]

I think Piccolo's reasoning works like this:

1. Piccolo "somehow" realizes that "Shin" guy is far stronger than him and throws in the towel.
2. He speculates that "Shin" may in fact be some higher ranking god, but doesn't share his suspicions with Goku and co. instead just telling them, what he already knew; that Shin was much stronger than him.
3. He then goes to see "Shin" to find out, if he's right about his speculations.

I don't think there needs to be something entirely different, than what's stated be interpreted from this chain of events.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

Well Piccolo freaked out as soon as Kaioshin revealed he was reading his mind.
I like to think that was how Piccolo concluded he was on a far too different level. That to mind read you have to have a bigger ki than your subject otherwise they would shut you out.
So if Kaioshin was trying to read the mind of SS2 Goku for example, he wouldn't be able to.

So he read Piccolo and Vegeta like open books, because of his vastly superior strength, which was how Piccolo would know he was stronger, whereas the others didn't because he hadn't unleashed his ki yet.

The last time I mentioned this theory, there were no further replies.. hopefully that won't happen again, lol.

Kaioshin could stop Gohan SS2 for a few seconds until Babidi's henchmen arrive there to steal energy from Gohan.
Kaioshin held up quite against Fat Buu. By your logic, Kaioshin is close in terms of power compared to Fat Buu and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. This logic is wrong, it is obvious that Kaioshin used his magic to accomplish these tasks, as he used to read the mind of Vegeta and Piccolo. Reading mind is a skill, not a combat technique. In a hypothetical fight between East Kaioshin and Piccolo, his ability of reading minds is completely useless.

[dbgtFO]

Kaioshin could stop Gohan SS2 for a few seconds until Babidi's henchmen arrive there to steal energy from Gohan.
Kaioshin held up quite against Fat Buu. By your logic, Kaioshin is close in terms of power compared to Fat Buu and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. This logic is wrong, it is obvious that Kaioshin used his magic to accomplish these tasks, as he used to read the mind of Vegeta and Piccolo. Reading is a skill. In a hypothetical fight between him and Piccolo, him ability to reading minds is completely useless.

No, my logic pertains to his mind reading abilities, not his paralyzing technique, though like demonstrated against Nappa, if the gap in power is too wide such an ability won't work. So one could argue there shouldn't be an astronomical gap in power between Kaioshin and SS2 Gohan as Kaioshin < base Gohan implies.
I don't recall Kaioshin's "magic", as you call it having any noticeable effect on Majin Buu other than briefly pushing him back. Those techniques were pretty much kiai like anyway.

I'm speculating about his mind reading abilities in that way, because Piccolo gave up as soon as it was revealed.
I don't know it just seems silly he would give up, if he didn't have a single clue about his power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I find dbgtFO's theory very plausible. Kaioshin was suppressing his power, since Goku & co. couldn't tell how strong he was, and if we add BoG, no one should be able to measure his power at all. Piccolo should be able to tell if someone is a god or not, since a part of him was a god before, but he shouldn't be able to sense his power, especially when no one else can. And the only thing that Kaioshin did against Piccolo was mind-reading, which was something only Piccolo recognized. So, Piccolo could tell that Kaioshin was a god from his ki type, and he could tell that he was a high-ranking god above the Kaio from the fact that he was so powerful, even more powerful than himself. How was he able to tell that? From the only thing he ever did, which was mind-reading.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

Kaioshin could stop Gohan SS2 for a few seconds until Babidi's henchmen arrive there to steal energy from Gohan.
Kaioshin held up quite against Fat Buu. By your logic, Kaioshin is close in terms of power compared to Fat Buu and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. This logic is wrong, it is obvious that Kaioshin used his magic to accomplish these tasks, as he used to read the mind of Vegeta and Piccolo. Reading is a skill. In a hypothetical fight between him and Piccolo, him ability to reading minds is completely useless.

No, my logic pertains to his mind reading abilities, not his paralyzing technique, though like demonstrated against Nappa, if the gap in power is too wide such an ability won't work. So one could argue there shouldn't be an astronomical gap in power between Kaioshin and SS2 Gohan as Kaioshin < base Gohan implies.
I don't recall Kaioshin's "magic", as you call it having any noticeable effect on Majin Buu other than briefly pushing him back. Those techniques were pretty much kiai like anyway.

I'm speculating about his mind reading abilities in that way, because Piccolo gave up as soon as it was revealed.
I don't know it just seems silly he would give up, if he didn't have a single clue about his power.

Piccolo like Vegeta were caught by surprise at the time of the situation. What I meant is that the ability to read the mind is not a conclusive factor for defining a fight between them, for example. Kaioshin was filled with fear of the black magic from Babidi, and Kaioshin himself said when he and Z-Gang reached the ship (when Babidi and Dabra appeared), it was impossible to win with Dabra working alongside Babidi. Yet when Piccolo confronted babidi, Piccolo cuts Babidi into pieces with a single blow. And look that Piccolo gave enough time to Babidi do something (in short, Piccolo gave enough time to Babidi react).

[DannyDBZfanforever]

I find dbgtFO's theory very plausible. Kaioshin was suppressing his power, since Goku & co. couldn't tell how strong he was, and if we add BoG, no one should be able to measure his power at all. Piccolo should be able to tell if someone is a god or not, since a part of him was a god before, but he shouldn't be able to sense his power, especially when no one else can. And the only thing that Kaioshin did against Piccolo was mind-reading, which was something only Piccolo recognized. So, Piccolo could tell that Kaioshin was a god from his ki type, and he could tell that he was a high-ranking god above the Kaio from the fact that he was so powerful, even more powerful than himself. How was he able to tell that? From the only thing he ever did, which was mind-reading.

This theory is interesting, but it only applies in this chapter of the manga as the manga continues and subsequent indications show otherwise, in other words, if the manga had finished on that chapter, with this information we could admit that Kaioshin is indeed superior to Piccolo, but the manga continues and on the spacecraft of Babidi, information from the manga state otherwise.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

How does it show otherwise? Kaioshin only uses this twice on two weaker than him characters.

[dbgtFO]

@Danny
You're right, it isn't conclusive, because sadly it wasn't established to be the case by Toriyama.
That's why I'm concious about this just being speculation, because Toriyama like in other cases isn't clear about how Piccolo figured out Kaioshin was stronger than him.
It leads to people claiming, he was just lying to get Goku and co. off his back, while trying to figure out "Shin's" true identity, which of course could be a deemed a valid interpretation.

I don't think much should be made of Kaioshin vs Babidi and Piccolo vs Babidi.
Kaioshin was, as it turns out needlessly cautious and all it does show is a difference in approach from a guy not used to battle and a guy very used to it.
Kaioshin was also unlucky, that he had to face Babidi guarded by Dabra and Majin Buu, whereas Piccolo only had to face an all alone Babidi.

[RandomGuy96]

While we're on the subject, I might as well bring up the Get Out of Jail Free Card I've seen some Japanese fansites use for Daizenshuu 7's "Kaioshin>Piccolo" bit. See, Daizenshuu 7's bio for East Kaioshin says that he's "far stronger than Super Namekian Piccolo". So you could say that Kaioshin's way stronger than Piccolo was immediately after re-merging with God back in the Cell arc, but still weaker than Piccolo is during the Boo arc, and still not technically be contradicting the entry. It's a case of purposefully missing the point, and it's probably easier just to say that Daizenshuu 7's wrong about Kaioshin (if you're so inclined), but I always found it amusing.

That theory is seemingly debunked by Daizenshuu 2, which says that Piccolo sensed Kaioshin's power, and that the humongous gap between his power and Kaioshin's is the reason he withdrew. Just like what was stated in the manga.

Sensing a tremendous gap in their powers at Shin's fearless smile, Piccolo withdraws soon after the match begins.

Of course, like I’ve said often enough, Piccolo’s “our dimensions are too different” is just a bog-standard way of saying “boy that guy’s way stronger than me” and gets used that way many times throughout the series. You could try and twist it to be talking about rank rather than strength, the same way you could with phrases like “he’s head and shoulders above me” or “he’s in a different league”, but it’s kind of a stretch and ultimately doesn’t even change anything, as I’ve tried to demonstrate above.

Isn't that also the exact same wording used to demonstrate the difference between Buutenks and Tenshinhan?

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P12.6
Context: as Boo is about to blow up the planet
Tenshinhan: “Da…damn it…! Our di-dimensions are too different…! I can’t be of any use…!”

[DannyDBZfanforever]

While we're on the subject, I might as well bring up the Get Out of Jail Free Card I've seen some Japanese fansites use for Daizenshuu 7's "Kaioshin>Piccolo" bit. See, Daizenshuu 7's bio for East Kaioshin says that he's "far stronger than Super Namekian Piccolo". So you could say that Kaioshin's way stronger than Piccolo was immediately after re-merging with God back in the Cell arc, but still weaker than Piccolo is during the Boo arc, and still not technically be contradicting the entry. It's a case of purposefully missing the point, and it's probably easier just to say that Daizenshuu 7's wrong about Kaioshin (if you're so inclined), but I always found it amusing.

That theory is seemingly debunked by Daizenshuu 2, which says that Piccolo sensed Kaioshin's power, and that the humongous gap between his power and Kaioshin's is the reason he withdrew. Just like what was stated in the manga.

Sensing a tremendous gap in their powers at Shin's fearless smile, Piccolo withdraws soon after the match begins.

Please use the manga. Was Daizenshuu written by Toriyama? Is the Daizenshuu as important as the manga?
I left explicit at the beginning of the topic just to use only the manga.

[RandomGuy96]

That post had nothing to do with you or your OP (which, it looks like, has already been debunked in a detailed fashion), it was specifically a response to another poster talking about a Get Out of Jail Free Card for the Daizenshuu.

Speaking of which, Kaioshin never used magic to disable SS2 Gohan, he used telekinesis. He even wondered whether or not SS2 Gohan was too strong for that paralysis technique to work, which wouldn't be the case with magic, which works regardless of how strong an opponent is. As Chiaotzu showed us in his "fight" with Nappa, if the enemy is many times stronger than you, your paralysis technique won't work. So that pretty much automatically makes Kaioshin not many times weaker than SS2 Gohan. But hey, if your whole argument for Piccolo being stronger than Kaioshin is shaky logic about Kaioshin being weaker than the base saiyans, shouldn't you also mention the implications that Piccolo himself is far weaker than the base saiyans? Because unlike with Kaioshin, there actually is evidence for that.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

That post had nothing to do with you or your OP (which, it looks like, has already been debunked in a detailed fashion), it was specifically a response to another poster talking about a Get Out of Jail Free Card for the Daizenshuu.

Speaking of which, Kaioshin never used magic to disable SS2 Gohan, he used telekinesis. He even wondered whether or not SS2 Gohan was too strong for that paralysis technique to work, which wouldn't be the case with magic, which works regardless of how strong an opponent is. As Chiaotzu showed us in his "fight" with Nappa, if the enemy is many times stronger than you, your paralysis technique won't work. So that pretty much automatically makes Kaioshin not many times weaker than SS2 Gohan. But hey, if your whole argument for Piccolo being stronger than Kaioshin is shaky logic about Kaioshin being weaker than the base saiyans, shouldn't you also mention the implications that Piccolo himself is far weaker than the base saiyans? Because unlike with Kaioshin, there actually is evidence for that.

Where???
This was written in the middle of my first post, it was a way to demonstrate the logical argument. I never concludes that Kaioshin is weaker than basic Saiyans, the point of the topic is to prove that Piccolo is more powerful than Kaioshin, this topic has nothing to do with base Saiyans.