Goku, a Mary-Sue?

[ss4songoku]

What on earth is a Mary-Sue? I honestly never heard that term.

[UpFromTheSkies]

Freeza is the only enemy he defeats in one on one combat.

Have you forgotten about his fight against Piccolo, one of the best in the series? For shame, sir, for shame!

[TheGmGoken]

Freeza is the only enemy he defeats in one on one combat.

Have you forgotten about his fight against Piccolo, one of the best in the series? For shame, sir, for shame!

I think he means Z. Though he forget henchmen aka job squad.

[Kid Buu]

If any character is a "Mary Sue" then I'll vote for Freeza. He's just a billion times stronger than everyone else for no reason whatsoever.

[TheGmGoken]

Starting to wonder if people know what a Mary Sue is. There is really no way Freeza a Mary Sue. He wasn't even stronger than anyone for long. There's more to Mary sues then power.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, I think we need to clear up just what a "Mary Sue" actually is.

Wikipedia to the rescue.

The term the article uses right off the bat is a pretty good one. A Mary Sue is an "idealized character." One that's essentially perfect and flawless, usually meaning they have no depth to them. Everyone still loves them for no good reason, except for the antagonist who's always foiled by them against all odds. Get the idea?

Goku is not a Mary Sue (or "Gary Stu," if you will), though admittedly he's probably the closest to one that Dragon Ball has. He's the main character, generally likable, and has a tendency to save the day in the clutch. But he's not perfect. He definitely has character flaws. He CAUSES almost as many bad situations as he solves.

[Retan]

So it's basically a character charge the author/person in charge puts themselves in, and makes sure that character looks good? Is that right?


Well crap I've been cheering for Mary-sue's of characters my whole life, Superman, Batman, ...Hulk Hogan , and nobody told me... thank god I'm a Vegeta fan.

[jjgp1112]

If any character is a "Mary Sue" then I'll vote for Freeza. He's just a billion times stronger than everyone else for no reason whatsoever.

Um....WHAT?! That doesn't even make sense...

[TheGmGoken]

If any character is a "Mary Sue" then I'll vote for Freeza. He's just a billion times stronger than everyone else for no reason whatsoever.

Um....WHAT?! That doesn't even make sense...

He was joking. Look at the quotations

[Kid Buu]

I put it there to show how easily Mary Sue can be used as a justification against any character one doesn't like.

[DBZAOTA482]

If Goku was a Mary Sue then he wouldn't have any discernible personality flaws (his naivete, sentiment, passion for fighting ect. has gotten him as well as others into trouble several times), everyone would love and admire him for no reason at all while Vegeta or anyone who doubts him would always be shown in a negative light, and he would be uber powerful with no real explanation for it.

However, Goku does undoubtedly has sue-like traits but he's definitely not a full-fledged Mary Sue. Want a Mary Sue? Watch SAO (Sword Art Online).

[The Tori-bot]

So it's basically a character charge the author/person in charge puts themselves in, and makes sure that character looks good? Is that right?


Well crap I've been cheering for Mary-sue's of characters my whole life, Superman, Batman, ...Hulk Hogan , and nobody told me... thank god I'm a Vegeta fan.

Superman and Batman aren't remotely Sues. They're both flawed as heck, especially Bats. "Powerful/smart" =/= "Mary Sue".

[garnetjester]

ETA: Yeah, Batman is not a Mary Sue for sure, he has tons of issues. And well, I don't really like Superman, so all I've seen featuring him are the recent movies and he does come off as a one dimensional character in them, but I assume that in the 10000 comics about him he is actually given depth and a real motivation, personality and flaws.

Ugh SAO is insufferable. I don't know if you're referring to Kirito or Asuna but they are both the worst. Anyway, back to DB, I think Goku has a lot of flaws that have made him make stupid decisions and get judged by the other characters sometimes, obviously not as much as he should have been judged for them, but still. Since it's established that Goku is a "low rank saiyan" and he doesn't have "infinite potential" or whatever a la Gohan, then his power was obtained from training a whole lot, which we get to see in the series.

Also, I'll preemptively say that I don't think Gohan is a Mary Sue because the only time he's ever saved anything was in the Cell Games, with Goku's spiritual guidance or whatever. Left to his own devices, despite his "endless hidden power" he's not that good at saving the day. Plus, he's also a flawed character because he's so insecure in his normal form and cocky when he gets powerful.

[ParkerAL]

For all of you still confused by what a Mary Sue is, let me present the most infamous one of all time: Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way, the "heroine" of the so-bad-it's-brilliant Harry Potter Fan-Fic, MY Immortal.

And yes, I don't think Goku is anything like her.

Prolific characters like Goku are easy targets for the "Mary Sue" label. They get taken at face value and the nuances of their character often end up submerged beneath popular conceptions and generalizations. Goku is seen as a dumb nice guy who always saves the day, and not the innocent wild child who grows into a fun-loving battle-hungry warrior.

[Cetra]

Not really.

Even if you say "not really" it does not change the fact that he isn't perfect and GT shows that. He has his trouble with his opponents and you even said it yourself. If that "disguises" something is really not relevant, it at least shows that even Goku can't just snap his fingers and destroy everyone (Baby, 17 and Yi Ying Long definitely showed that). In fact before he always finds a way to power up he gets totally devastated by the three main villains. That is very DB like actually. And that there are still other beings that get strong enough to fight Goku should not be a problem at all. Even Beerus asks him if he doesn't think that there are other beings in the 12 multiverses that are strong and that someone else gets strong in his own universe is not impossible. Besides, it is not like Rildo really was an impossible enemy for him. He had some trouble with him but later he actually showed that it was more show than everything else and only the main villains caused the really serious problems. Also - why is it such a problem that there are other enemies who are strong in a show where human being can be modified to automatically be stronger than a Super-Saiyajin? There is no problem at all.

[Retan]

Eh... I'm not sure there are that many mary-sue characters in the world, let alone any mentioned on this thread.

[Vijay]

Sayin Goku a Mary-Sue is like saying thatdbzguy a DBZ fan. LOl. Kiddin by the way.

Even remotely considerable part which suggests Goku a Mary-Sue is GT's Black Star & Shenron aka Pig/Green Toad/Duck Saga.

I'll agree with a member's post of how EVERYONE's made to look bad, just to make Goku shine. Say, like the Baba tournament saga & King Piccolo saga. But Mary Sue? Nah. Dont think so.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I'd say Goku's more of a Stumpy Pete, personally.

[Rocketman]

If Goku was a Mary Sue then everyone would love and admire him for no reason at all while Vegeta or anyone who doubts him would always be shown in a negative light

Uh.....

[ABED]

The short version - No, Goku isn't an overly idealized character. The problem isn't when characters are "perfect" whatever that means. It's when they aren't well written. I don't think there needs to be flaws of morality to be interesting, but main characters should not have everything. I can see why Superman gets lumped in, but the better versions of the character isn't perfect (e.g., Superman the animated series, Man of Steel). Goku's in the same boat, he's great at fighting, and a nice guy, but he's not the most intelligent.