Super Saiyan be a multiplier does not make sense...

[Cursed Lemon]

If that's the conclusion you've reached after reading what I said then I think I'm starting to understand a lot of things...

The issue was the strength of Goku vs. the strength of Freeza, which is plain to see as Goku completely outclassed Freeza when they fought. We have four options:

1. Goku and Freeza were both still not at 100% after transforming because of their injuries and physical exertion.
2. Goku, for no reason, basically got the senzu bean treatment from transforming, which has no precedent anywhere.
3. Freeza, for no reason, basically got the senzu bean treatment from powering up, which has no precedent anywhere either.
4. Goku AND Freeza were both magically healed by their increases, which makes this not matter at all.

Explain to me, as cogently as you can manage, why any of these options except for #1 makes sense.

[freezamite]

The issue was the strength of Goku vs. the strength of Freeza, which is plain to see as Goku completely outclassed Freeza when they fought.

Even when your messages are reduced to a single claim, it's wrong. So what you saw was a match where Goku had much more strength than Freezer. I thought that they had more or less the same strength at the beginning, but one of them had less stamina than the other one. Curious.
But straight to the point:

1. Goku and Freeza were both still not at 100% after transforming because of their injuries and physical exertion.
2. Goku, for no reason, basically got the senzu bean treatment from transforming, which has no precedent anywhere.
3. Freeza, for no reason, basically got the senzu bean treatment from powering up, which has no precedent anywhere either.
4. Goku AND Freeza were both magically healed by their increases, which makes this not matter at all.
Explain to me, as cogently as you can manage, why any of these options except for #1 makes sense.

I don't have to explain nor justify other people's excuses. The only thing I have to justify are my claims, and my claim is:
5. Goku got the senzu bean treatment due to a rage boost, that have always given the senzu bean treatment.

Look, what you're doing here is negating that there was a "senzu bean" treatment to Goku, which is something that is not even debatable seeing him at chapter 319 and comparing how he was in chapter 325. Goku received a "senzu bean" treatment, that's a FACT.
What we're discussing is from where this "senzu bean treatment" came from. My stance, based on the manga, is pretty clear and has been explained in quite a detail. What's not so clear is the next excuse you'll pull to try to justify your nonsensical claims. And that in the best of the cases, in the worst you'll just straight up lie like you've done on those previous messages.

[Cursed Lemon]

Even when your messages are reduced to a single claim, it's wrong. So what you saw was a match where Goku had much more strength than Freezer. I thought that they had more or less the same strength at the beginning, but one of them had less stamina than the other one. Curious.

Like how Freeza almost literally couldn't even cause Goku pain?

Except for the fact that your position on this, the seemingly equal combat between Goku and Freeza, is contradicted in probably dozens of places across Dragon Ball - where two fighters who seem to be fighting on an even keel are not even remotely equal in strength.

Look no further than Vegeta v. Recoome for a perfect example.

But straight to the point:

I don't have to explain nor justify other people's excuses. The only thing I have to justify are my claims, and my claim is:
5. Goku got the senzu bean treatment due to a rage boost, that have always given the senzu bean treatment.

Like...where?

Nevermind the fact that almost everybody thinks that "rage boosts" are exclusive to Gohan.

Look, what you're doing here is negating that there was a "senzu bean" treatment to Goku, which is something that is not even debatable seeing him at chapter 319 and comparing how he was in chapter 325. Goku received a "senzu bean" treatment, that's a FACT.

No, no it really isn't.

[Rocketman]

2. Goku, for no reason, basically got the senzu bean treatment from transforming, which has no precedent anywhere.

Explain to me, as cogently as you can manage, why any of these options except for #1 makes sense.

Goku depowers from Super Saiyan towards the end of the fight and is perfectly fine, despite being exhausted and unable to laugh without it hurting before he went Super. He even dodges Freesa's kienzan.

[freezamite]

Like how Freeza almost literally couldn't even cause Goku pain?

As much pain as Goku caused to him until he was weakened. In fact, Freezer caused Goku more pain since Goku left the lake gasping for air after receiving Freezer attacks, and its pretty unclear if he had a second rage boost due to Freezer's comment on Krilin's death.

Except for the fact that your position on this, the seemingly equal combat between Goku and Freeza, is contradicted in probably dozens of places across Dragon Ball

What? Where is that contradicted exactly?

where two fighters who seem to be fighting on an even keel are not even remotely equal in strength. Look no further than Vegeta v. Recoome for a perfect example.

Wow, so much wrong in there.
I mean, you all go from "anecdotal evidence doesn't mean shit" to "anecdotal evidence demonstrate that what's written on the manga is not true" which is a bit hilarious to read.
And to make worst even worse, your example is not even valid (Reecoome made fun of Vegeta during the whole fight and at no point the fight seemed even). If you want an example of two characters having an even fight when their powers was different then put things like Cell fighting against Goku in the Cell games.

Now that we've got your example fixed, it happens that during the Cell vs Goku fight we were told dozens of times that Cell was stronger and even Cell himself said that he was restraining his power in order to enjoy his fight with Goku.
On the other hand, SSJ Goku wasn't even sure that he could win against 100% Freezer until Freezer weakened, and nowhere was said about anything related to Goku restraining part of his power in that fight.
As I've already told you dozens of times, I WANT FACTS OF THE MANGA, NOT VAGUE INTERPRETATIONS THAT TO MAKE THINGS WORSE CONTRADICT WHAT'S SAID ON THERE.

Like...where?

Nevermind the fact that almost everybody thinks that "rage boosts" are exclusive to Gohan.

Everybody has also agreed in that Goku regained his strength and here we have you saying the opposite. The fact is that those "everyone says" fallacies are invalid, but if you use them, at least try to be coherent in your lies.

No, no it really isn't.

Oh, so it's not a fact that Goku had in his base form more power in chapter 325 than in chapter 319? That's "Goku didn't dodge the kienzan/Krilin could move perfectly fine" levels of inventing. Look, if you happen to read the manga, then come here and I'm sure we will have a great debate.

Goku depowers from Super Saiyan towards the end of the fight and is perfectly fine, despite being exhausted and unable to laugh without it hurting before he went Super. He even dodges Freesa's kiensan.

And why do you think that means he gained his power through the transformation, when no one has ever regained his power by transforming alone? We've seen people gaining power through rage (even when it's mostly Gohan the one that does this, at least is a precedent and we also have Vegeta doing that) but we've never seen anyone gaining power through transforming alone...
But at least I'm glad that we agree in that Goku dodged the kienzan instead of Freezer missing the target. Because we agree on that, don't we? (just to be sure in front of possible future edits due to suspicious "alliances").

[Cursed Lemon]

As much pain as Goku caused to him until he was weakened. In fact, Freezer caused Goku more pain since Goku left the lake gasping for air after receiving Freezer attacks, and its pretty unclear if he had a second rage boost due to Freezer's comment on Krilin's death.

Weakened by what?

At no point do either of them state, whether directly or internally (nor is it even implied), that Freeza is actually wearing down because he's tired. That is the extrapolation that YOU are making to build Freeza up for your own reasons, and is the crux of this argument. Goku getting his ki returned to full doesn't make him more resistant to getting an unguarded punch to the gut, and it's clear that Goku is far more resilient to Freeza's attacks than vice versa.

And once again, nowhere else in all of DB does a person magically heal themselves with a transformation. Making an exception for this because it fits your ends is asinine.

[Hitiro]

It being implied doesn't make it fact, it is subjective.

There's nothing subjective in that Vegeta was the strongest sayan ever and that Freezer destroyed planet Vegeta because sayans were becoming stronger. But yes, it wasn't a fact of the manga, it was from the TV special that the manga canonized when Toriyama drew the death scene of bardock in the series.

I wasn't on about Vegeta being the strongest. I was on about assuming Freeza destroyed Planet Vegeta because Vegeta was the strongest. That is subjective. It isn't a fact. We all know Vegeta was the strongest pre-Z and during the Saiyan arc.

So feats are less than implications now?

It's not a "feat" since the moment we see how a strong character can be hurt with weak attacks if he restrains his power enough. But the worst thing here is that you're even unable to see that my Pilaf SSJ3 story is not even an implication. That's the point precisely, there're no feats nor implications to support it, so it's false by definition even if I can come up with extravagant excuses to justify it.
You'll never be able to demonstrate that I'm wrong unless I contradict the manga in something (like how you contradicted it in dozens of times and came up with more excuses), but Pilaf hiding his power already "justifies" how he can be hurt just by kicking at a wall (don't you remember how Vegeta was badly injured by Krilin because he restrained his power in order to allow that?).
It's not with "Pilaf hurt his hand hitting a wall" that you will demonstrate that my SSJ3 Pilaf made-up story is false. Unless you accept that in this case the burden of proof is on me you won't be able to demonstrate that I'm wrong. The problem is that if you accept that, then you would have to try to proof many of your made-up excuses which is obviously impossible for you to do so.

The thing is you say I contradict the manga when I don't. And you keep calling what I suggest "excuses" which is entirely offensive. They are my opinions. The manga is subjective on this subject of whether Goku got all of his Ki back. You are the one who keeps telling me I'm wrong. When there is no proof either way of either of us being right or not. My opinion is just as valid as yours. There are no contradictions in my opinion. You just feel it necessary to pretend there are contradictions because you want your opinion to be the right one.

You are the only one who thinks they aren't here.

In fact there has been at least two other posters that have answered to your excuses but you blatantly ignored them. That doesn't make them to not exist. If your excuses are valid, give pages and chapters to justify them.

DannyDBZfanforever is the only other poster who possibly counts. Other than him who else is there? You'll find that there is no one else. On the other hand Cursed Lemon, Darkprince410, DBZGTKOSDH and Rocketman all have a similar opinion as me. Because you keep verbally attacking my opinion I guess we are all wrong and you are the only one who is right in this argument? As I have said, whether Goku gets boosted to full Ki or not is entirely subjective. It is never stated Goku gets boosted to full so I don't see why you find it necessary to reject all other opinions as possibilities.

2. There are a group of people that think the initial SSJ transformation is kind of like a adrenaline rush which allows him to go further than he should. Don't see why that isn't a valid opinion over rage boosts.

Because no one ever says anything about "first transformation recoveries" and as an excuse is as valid as my Pilaf SSJ3 theory. No feats and no implications to back it.
In fact, the whole Gohan turning into a SSJ2 contradicts that. No one is saying "we need Gohan to enrage to trigger up a new transformation that will restore his power because it's the first time", no. What's said is that "we need Gohan to enrage so he can release all of his strength" and him turning into a SSJ2 was a side effect of that increase in strength in the same way turning a SSJ was.
So yeah, another excuse that is so bad that contradicts the manga. It's curious how I'm defending my ridiculous and made-up story of SSJ3 Pilaf even better than you can defend the excuses you give in this threads.

No one ever says anything about Goku getting a rage boost back to full Ki. What makes yours not an excuse compared to other peoples opinions? There is no proof that the first transformation doesn't recover. In a survival of the fittest and genetic selection it would be logical to believe that there would be an additional self-defence mechanism to ensure the strongest genes survival.

3. Gohan is the only character to actually be stated to receive these though.

Stated by other characters? Yes. Sated in the manga? No. We also have Goku and Vegeta.

The manga doesn't state rage boosts for Goku or Vegeta though? We only have characters state Gohan has had a boost when he has. And over the entire span of the manga he is the only character we can actually prove has had rage boosts because it is stated. You can't go around saying everybody is wrong when there is no confirmation from the manga that Goku or Vegeta had rage boosts. Unless it is stated by the manga this argument is entirely subjective and my opinion, as well as the opinions of the others, is as valid as yours.

4. Every single time that someone has had this feeling they have gained much more strength then they ever had? Can you show me an example of a character other than Gohan?

We're speaking of a specific feeling, not any kind of rage. We've seen a lot of characters being pissed about anything, and in fact that even reduced their strength in some cases (Nappa). But when that specific feeling appeared there has always been a rage boost. We have Gohan, Goku and Vegeta to prove it. 3 cases. And we also have an example of a rage boost ending with a transformation (Gohan SSJ2) that totally destroys your excuse of "it's not the rage but the fact of transforming for the first time".

You say we have Goku and Vegeta to prove it. But there are no examples in the manga were it is stated. So that isn't proof. How does SSJ2 Gohan getting a rage boost justify your argument? Gohan was hardly injured by Cell. Gohan is also a Saiyan hybrid so he is unique. The characters affirm this throughout the manga. Comparing Gohan, which is obviously different from Goku and Vegeta, is just silly. Never is it said in the manga that Goku or Vegeta need to get angry to bring out some beastly power. Only ever Gohan.

There have been no cases stated, other than Gohan's, where there have been rage boosts. Goku and Vegeta could simply be considered as getting angry and having no boosts.

So going from being unable to stand-up to SSJ is not a boost? And that was because of the rage. You coming up with excuses like the "first-time transforming" healing (and why would he transform at that point if according to you he had had that feeling dozens of times before and there's no need to have your full base-state strength in order to transform? I'm waiting for the 999999th excuse to show up on here) won't change that.

It may be a boost. That doesn't mean it's a full recovery. But you could also just attribute it to Goku naturally recovering stamina like an athlete does. The SSJ multiplier is going to push his Ki to the point where he has enough to move about anyway. Goku demonstrates getting exhausted as a SSJ during the fight. Huffing and puffing only to be perfectly fine a few pages down the line. The same thing happens in other fights like when he goes up against Vegeta in the Boo arc. Stamina and Ki don't have to be tied together. If Goku is panting during a fight that doesn't mean his Ki is at a rocket low.

You can't prove to me they boosted as it is never stated.

It wasn't stated that Goku went from not being able to stand up to SSJ levels of strength?

Again, Goku standing can purely be because he had recovered some stamina. He was actually standing before Kuririn was killed. Piccolo was shot and he told Kuririn and Gohan to get away before they are killed, standing up all by himself.

Goku dodging what? Freeza's Kienzan? As I said before. Goku simply turned around and the Kienzan missed. It wasn't a dodging feat.

The Kienzan failed? This is straight up lying. Come on, that would reach "excuse" level if it wasn't because of that panel of Goku clearly moving his head to the side in order to dodge. Even if it wasn't for that panel, that would be another absurd excuse because accuracy has never been a factor in DB unless a character was under a certain extreme condition (like being "Tayokened") and there's nothing that point towards Freezer having bad accuracy at that moment.

How is it a lie? It is an opinion. Can you prove to me that it didn't just miss its target? Accuracy has always been an issue with the Kienzan, it isn't an easy attack to control. It's never caused a harmful blow except when Freeza got caught by his own. Accuracy has also been an issue where characters haven't learnt to control the technique. Goten using a Kamehameha for one. Even with techniques people have mastered there have been accuracy issues. Look at the Mafuba with Roshi and Tienshinhan. So don't tell me accuracy has never been an issue.

Unlike Gohan who only says he can't move because it hurts.

So you're quoting the wrong dialogue trying to prove that the dialogue I'm pointing at never happened? You can do better than that, cant' you? XD

Again, could you please try to be less offensive? I'm not quoting the wrong dialogue at all. I'm pointing to what Goku says in this dialogue. He says he can't move. That is what is said between Goku and Gohan. The only other Dialogue that is said between Goku and Gohan is that Gohan can't move because it hurts too much. Not that he can't move his body at all.

Taken straight from my Viz manga:

Spoiler:

No, what I imply is that Gohan stood up because he got angry enough to ignore the pain and try to fight anyway. Goku already stated Gohan should be able to hold off Vegeta, even without any sort of "rage boost."

So that wasn't a rage boost. That was Gohan just ignoring the pain (and I don't see what pain are you talking about when he says that he can't move, not "I can't move because of the temporary pain but wait a second that once this is gone I'll be at 100% again"). One pathetic excuse after another. Brilliant!

Again, I really offensive remark. You are going to get banned if you keep these up. Check the screenshot I took of the manga page up above. Gohan never says he can't move. Only that it hurts too much to.

I said he had a good amount of it left.

Yeah, a good amount like not being able to stand up. Amazing amount of power he had at that point.

If all you are going to do is insult me and my opinions then you are on the wrong forum my friend. Your blatant attacks are something reminiscent of a zetaboard forum. If you keep this up, like I said above, you're going to get into trouble with the site admins. This site is supposed to promote healthy discussion about the franchise. It isn't a place for attacking people because you think their opinion is wrong and that your opinion must be the only right one.

Your assumption is baseless because Gohan had already convinced the audience he was too afraid to fight Vegeta because he was too strong.

That's... I don't think I have words to describe how bad this excuse is. So him being afraid demonstrates that he wasn't injured. That's... special, at the very least.

Him being afraid demonstrates an unwillingness to stand up and fight Vegeta. Nothing else. Again, please refrain from calling my opinion an "excuse." There is no need for it, we're both adults here. There is also no need for the rest of your venomous statement.

I'm asking you to give me more examples because it seems we can't agree on the Gohan vs. Vegeta fight because you keep thinking he is severely weakened from two blows. If you can provide me with an example other than this one to support your claim then I'm all for it.

Even if I had another example you would come with another totally made-up excuse and would ask for a third example. Hell, you haven't provided even a single example of anything you're claiming, and you're asking me for MULTIPLE examples of something

I have provided you examples, multiple ones. Go back and read my previous posts. I shouldn't feel the need to justify this with a response if you are going to ignore everything I've said. And I am not a person to make-up excuses for why your opinion is a valid one. I have already stated in nearly every post that your opinion is plausible and is as valid as mine. You are the one who keeps insisting that your opinion is clearly the right one and that everyone else is wrong.

Which you continue to ignore, Kuririn received a much more hefty attack than Gohan's. Yet Kuririn could move fine.

Krilin was moving fine
But before anything more, I have to thank dbgtFO for providing that link to the manga guide. I didn't read the manga guide and I didn't know it was so complete, so it's for sure a valuable source of info.
From the link provided by dbgtFO:

Kuririn slowly starts to get back to his feet, and Gohan says he can’t move.

In a single sentence of that guide, TWO EXCUSES being defeated. Amazing.
Krilin "slowly starting to get back to his feet" turns to "Krilin moving fine", and "Gohan saying he can't move" turns to "Gohan saying he was fine but couldn't move because he was hurt". STOP PUTTING EXCUSES, SERIOUSLY.

I don't see how this is "TWO EXECUSES being defeated." I don't know who the chapter synopsis is done by. It wasn't written by Akira Toriyama was it? I've made a request to the translation forum to find out what is actually said on that page. Because in the Viz translation he never says he can't move because he is unable to. Kuririn after he reaches Goku scales a giant rock formation in a single bound. So his movement isn't impaired. He may be reeling from the blow he took which is why he slowly got back to his feet. Again, this is my opinion. Not "excuses," so I would like you to refrain from calling them as such.

Vegeta's fight with #18 was not close. He was completely outmatched.

That's from a different discussion, but even then, what the hell? Vegeta fought at #18 level until he got tired. Vegeta had as much strength as #18 but he lacked the unlimited stamina the android had. Stop telling lies!

I'd appreciate it if you didn't call me a liar. Vegeta never thought #18 level. Both affirm they are holding back and Vegeta tells her not to be shy. She then proceeds to headbutt him which causes him to bleed. He hits her in the stomach and she takes absolutely no damage, she doesn't even flinch. She just smiles. She then strikes him in the stomach in return which cause him to keel over in pain. He later shot her with a blast and she came out unscathed.

Chapter: 352 (DBZ 158), P11.1
Context: after fighting Vegeta for awhile
No.18: “I haven’t been giving it anywhere near my all either. Can you tell?”

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P10.2-4, P11.1
Context: after Vegeta continues to fight No.18
Vegeta: “This is really starting to annoy me. You act as if nothing’s happened…”
No.18: “I’m surprised. To think that a flesh-and-blood human could be so good, even if you are an alien. Is this man called ‘Son Goku’ even stronger?”
Vegeta: “Don’t kid yourself. He may have temporarily slipped by me, but now things have returned to normal and I should be on top again.”
No.18: “What? So you’re nothing special. Either of you.”

It was nowhere near even, even before Vegeta's stamina started to tank. She had the advantage in strength the whole time and he did no damage to her whatsoever. Didn't even make her bleed.

That's because the first time Goku transforms, the transformation is triggered by the "rage" of seeing Krilin dying. So for one part Goku regains his full power through the rage and then the SSJ multiplies it by 10.

I assume from your original statement that Goku could only beat Freeza because Freeza was weakened by the Genki Dama and the SSJ transformation coupled with, in your opinion, the rage boost put Goku higher than a weakened Freeza. If you believe Goku was healed to full and SSJ only gives a 10x boost. Then how was Goku going to win against Freeza on Earth when Freeza was stronger than ever? If Trunks was as strong as Goku when going up against Freeza why did Freeza not absolutely destroy him? Because no matter how you look at it Namek Goku + KKx10 would not match Freeza's 100% So Namek Goku + SSJ(x10) would mean that while Goku was on Yardrat he would have had to have gotten 5x or 6x times stronger for him to beat Freeza as a SSJ. That is the old Freeza too, not mecha Freeza who is apparently stronger.

[Rocketman]

And once again, nowhere else in all of DB does a person magically heal themselves with a transformation. Making an exception for this because it fits your ends is asinine.

Freesa heals himself when he goes from 2nd to 3rd form.

[freezamite]

Weakened by what?

At no point do either of them state, whether directly or internally (nor is it even implied), that Freeza is actually wearing down because he's tired.

Ah no? Then what's the meaning of this?

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P8.2-5
As a backlash from you using your 100% power, you’ve passed your peak, and your ki is steadily dropping…

Again. That 100% Freezer loses his stamina abnormally fast is a FACT stated in the manga. It's what defines the outcome of the fight, more precisely, the reason Goku can win before the planet explodes.
Then, grabbing other FACTS from the manga (Freezer being an abnormally strong being since he was born that never had to fight anyone at his level) I reach the conclusion that he was loosing stamina because when someone isn't used to do hard exercise, when they're forced to do it they become tired much faster than someone who has trained during years.

Yes, it's just a supposition that Freezer loosed strength because he wasn't used to fight at full force, but that's the most reasonable explanation to me considering no other reason is given and that in DB the rule "no training = less physical capabilities" is applied during the whole series.

Then again, you're arguing that a STATED FACT of the manga didn't exist because of (insert here any pathetic excuse you're going to say).

Goku getting his ki returned to full doesn't make him more resistant to getting an unguarded punch to the gut

What, WHAT???? OF COURSE GETTING HIS KI RETURNED TO FULL MADE HIM MORE RESISTANT. That's one of the most basic rules in DB! It's so basic I can't even start to comprehend what series have you been watching! I mean, Vegeta has to hide his power in order for Krilin to be able to hurt him, Gohan went from being totally obliterated by a Cell that wasn't even at full power to resisting full powered Cell's best punch like if it was nothing, Vegeta going from fighting #18 at her same level to have his arm broken by a single hit.... there're dozens and dozens of examples of how having more ki affects the strength, the speed, the endurance and nearly every aspect of the fighter, besides the stamina.

And once again, nowhere else in all of DB does a person magically heal themselves with a transformation. Making an exception for this because it fits your ends is asinine.

True. But we have several examples of people gaining strength because of the anger, and Goku got mad at Freezer because of Krilin's death. Stop avoiding to answer to what I'm telling you and stop ignoring the facts of the manga, because to insinuate that Goku didn't recover any strength after being told to check chapters 325 and 319... that's ridiculous.

I wasn't on about Vegeta being the strongest. I was on about assuming Freeza destroyed Planet Vegeta because Vegeta was the strongest. That is subjective.

As I've said, if we limit our analysis on what's said on the manga, then yes you're right. If we include the TV special because the manga "canonized" it then it's stated that Vegeta's strength influenced Freezer (although is Zarbon the one that makes the point). In that case I'll say that it's a matter of tastes, but the point was that Freezer was never afraid of a single sayan defeating him, but the potential harm the sayans could do in the future considering their increasing strength and wild nature.

The thing is you say I contradict the manga when I don't. And you keep calling what I suggest "excuses" which is entirely offensive. They are my opinions.

You don't contradict the manga? Look, you're the author of "Krilin was moving fine" or "Goku didn't dodge the kienzan, Freezer missed". To me what's offensive is to lie when we are here in what in theory should be a discussion about the manga.
Once you've taken this to the point of outright lying, there's nothing disrespectful in saying what you do in order to not admit being wrong.

Look, I've given you an explanation BASED ON FACTS OF THE MANGA that "demonstrates" that the Pilaf SSJ3 theory was plausible (going with your fallacious way of reasoning) and if you think that my excuse wasn't valid then ANSWER TO IT INSTEAD OF AVOIDING THE ANSWER AND REPEATING "YOU'RE WRONG" WITHOUT GIVING ANY EVIDENCE OF THAT.

The manga is subjective on this subject of whether Goku got all of his Ki back.

As subjective as Pilaf not being a SSJ3. You haven't been able to answer to a single one of my claims, and yet you are here saying that I'm wrong and you're right.

You are the one who keeps telling me I'm wrong.

WITH FACTS. WITH CHAPTERS AND PAGES OF THE MANGA THAT DEMONSTRATE IT (something that you've only done ONCE in this thread). And do you remember what happened when you proved one of your claims with the manga? That I acknowledged my mistake, something you're clearly unable to do.

And participating in a discussion forum with the intention of never admitting when being wrong, that's the biggest disrespect one could ever possibly make.

When there is no proof either way of either of us being right or not. My opinion is just as valid as yours

Stop saying that when you've still to prove one of your single claims and the few times you've tried to do so (except for the only legitimately good point you provided) you've outright lied.

Other than him who else is there?

The manga guide and dbgto's link to it. Do you think he doesn't count or that the manga guide of this site isn't valid enough? Well then, say it, but don't act if that wasn't there...

On the other hand Cursed Lemon, Darkprince410, DBZGTKOSDH and Rocketman all have a similar opinion as me.

In fact and despite that I'm conscious on that "unified front" of yours, the only think that you al have similar is that you're pretty invested on downplaying Freezer's strength to put it below a SSJ level. Other than that, you've all come with different excuses. Ones saying that there was no energy recovery for Goku, you saying that he regained part of his strength but not all of it, others saying that the injuries doesn't take one's energy away...
Your excuses, because they're just made up theories in order to avoid admitting not being right on that topic, are not based on anything more than your pride and personal investment on making Freezer looking weaker than he is (in the manga).

whether Goku gets boosted to full Ki or not is entirely subjective.

As entirely subjective as Pilaf being a SSJ3 hiding his power.

No one ever says anything about Goku getting a rage boost back to full Ki.

No one said that about Gohan before he had the first rage boost either. Goku's personality wasn't the same as Gohan, and it's obvious no one expected him to have Gohan's reaction. That being said, he had it. He reacted like Gohan reacts in that situation, so he got the same benefits that Gohan got in those situations.

And yes, what you refuse to answer one time after the other is the OBVIOUS FACT that if Goku didn't regain his full strength he wouldn't have transformed into SSJ. Rage boosts alone aren't enough to turn anyone into a SSJ, that has been stated pretty clearly in the manga with Gohan having DOZENS of rage boosts and being unable to transform into a SSJ until he had enough strength to do so (in the ROSAT).

What makes yours not an excuse compared to other peoples opinions?

Maybe the fact that I'm always giving a chapter and a page that demonstrates that what I'm saying is not pulled directly out of my ass?

There is no proof that the first transformation doesn't recover.

Yes, and there's also no proof of God not existing in reality. Look, that's called "Argument from ignorance".

The manga doesn't state rage boosts for Goku or Vegeta though? We only have characters state Gohan has had a boost when he has.

THE FACTS are also statements in a manga. You know, there hasn't to be anyone explicitly saying everything, specially when every single one of your claims is not only not based on anything but directly contradicting the manga.

I mean, how can you defend a completely pulled-from-the-ass stance of "first transformation recoveries" when that has never been stated to exist in the manga, and then say that "nobody says Goku got a rage boost" when he himself is the first to say that he is "really enraged" or that the "anger awoke the violence on his heart". GOKU HIMSELF COUPLED WITH THE FACTS stated that he got a rage boost.

Unless it is stated by the manga this argument is entirely subjective and my opinion, as well as the opinions of the others, is as valid as yours.

As I've said before, you outright ignoring what's said on the manga or even transforming it to your convenience doesn't make those drawings to disappear.

But there are no examples in the manga were it is stated.

Goku going from "I'm not able to stand-up" to SSJ is not a stated fact? Vegeta going from mini-Cell levels of power to be powerful enough to survive an attack of SSJ2 Cell even without loosing consciousness is not a proof? Of course they're no matter how hard you try to hide it.

Gohan is also a Saiyan hybrid so he is unique

Yes, so unique that we have 3 sayan hybrids. The hybrid sayan theory regarding rage boost was only valid until we discovered that rage boost were something related to each one's personality and circumstancial facts of the moment, and not with being hybrid or anything like that.
How many rage-boosts did Trunks have? 0 in the present timeline, only one in the future one. And he was an hybrid. But he had a violent personality so he didn't have Gohan's rage boosts.

Are you aware that when reading a fictional story the characters speak only from their perspective? That means that Vegeta's supposition of Gohan having those rage boosts because he's an hybrid is valid until it's demonstrated false, and that happens when we see other hybrids without that kind of power ups and non-hybrids having rage boosts.

Although one could say that Gohan had his pacific personality thanks to being an hybrid, and that would be right.

Comparing Gohan, which is obviously different from Goku and Vegeta, is just silly.

What's the epitome of silliness is to outright lie about easily checkable facts like "Goku didn't dodge the kienzan"
To say that Gohan can't be compared with Goku and Vegeta (it was Goku's son, for god's sake) seems also pretty silly to me, specially when this claim is made in order to justify "first transformations recoveries" that have never been stated to exist on the manga.

The SSJ multiplier is going to push his Ki to the point where he has enough to move about anyway.

The SSJ multiplier is not applied when you're not a SSJ. What nonsense is this?

Goku demonstrates getting exhausted as a SSJ during the fight. Huffing and puffing only to be perfectly fine a few pages down the line.

Yes, after enraging for the second time after hearing how Freezer mocked krilin's death. Although not huffing and puffing doesn't mean to be in perfect condition (that's the only thing you've been able to prove during this discussion, don't contradict yourself again and at least don't do it in that point ), it just means that they no longer have problems to breathe.

Stamina and Ki don't have to be tied together.

Have you ever practised any sport? Have you ever run even if it's been only a few kilometers? Not huffing doesn't mean you have recovered all your stamina, it just means that your body has enough oxygen at that point to sustain it's current energy consumption (aerobic/anaerobic efforts)...

If Goku is panting during a fight that doesn't mean his Ki is at a rocket low.

It just means that he has made a big effort, but yes, it doesn't tell us how much strength he has left.

How is it a lie? It is an opinion.

No, it's not an opinion. How's an opinion to say that Goku didn't dodge when he moved his head to the side in order to avoid being hit by a kienzan that despite doing that cut his face? That's not an opinion. 2+2=6 is not an opinion, it's just one of the most stupid claims I've ever seen.

Can you prove to me that it didn't just miss its target?

Of course I can prove it. Goku moves his head to the left, and despite that his face was cut from the right-side of it (always speaking from the viewer's perspective). That means that if he hadn't moved his head, it would've been cut off. It's so obvious that I don't know why I'm even discussing this. That's reaching some surrealistic levels of fanaticism.

Again, could you please try to be less offensive?

How can I be less offensive when you're here not to discuss but to dismiss other people's opinions only because you can't possibly be wrong in your imagination. You've lied consciously! That's the most disrespectful and offensive action one could do on a forum!

Taken straight from my Viz manga

That version of the manga that changed whole sentences? I mean, Goku never insulted Gohan calling him a coward, nor Gohan said anything about not being able to move because of the pain.
In fact, are you aware that this translation is the one that specifically uses the expression "same size ki" when speaking about Trunks's power as a SSJ compared to Goku in Namek?
So you're just using a wrong translation to prove your point, and you do that knowing it's badly translated because otherwise you would use it to defend the rest of your points, which clearly isn't the case.

Check the screenshot I took of the manga page up above. Gohan never says he can't move. Only that it hurts too much to.

In a translation that directly changed dozens of sentences and that was everything but accurate. Yes, in the Viz version on the manga that would be the case, but in the Viz version of the manga Gohan clearly says that Trunks "has the same size-ki" than Goku in Namek, but you're not using that translation here, are you?

This site is supposed to promote healthy discussion about the franchise.

Healthy discussion involves not lying, and you've done that. From here onwards, when I see that kind of attitude, I can't do anything but to denounce it. Stop lying, and I'll stop telling you liar. As easy as that!

I have provided you examples, multiple ones. Go back and read my previous posts.

No, I've read them. You only did that one right, the rest are always suppositions in the best case, and straight up lies in the worse cases.

Kuririn after he reaches Goku scales a giant rock formation in a single bound.

Finally another valid example. Yes, the problem is that Goku and Krilin were doing that since chapter 1 when they had a couple of units. Besides that, it seems that Krilin is affected by the energy Goku gives to him, because before receiving the Genkidama Krilin was barely able to walk.
That being said, this doesn't proof Krilin was moving fine. Krilin was above Raditz, him being able to jump over a rock formation after receiving energy from Goku (although you could say that all that energy was in the ball and Krilin absorbed none of it) doesn't negate the FACT that he had a lot of problems to even stand up some pages before.

So his movement isn't impaired.

So Krilin, who was much stronger than Raditz, demonstrated being at full condition because he managed to jump over a rock. Incredible.

He hits her in the stomach and she takes absolutely no damage, she doesn't even flinch. She just smiles. She then strikes him in the stomach in return which cause him to keel over in pain.

That's the scene where Vegeta wasn't fighting seriously and #18 was. Of course, #18 fighting seriously surpassed Vegeta. When both of them got serious, the fight became even to the point where Trunks thought Vegeta could win.

It was nowhere near even, even before Vegeta's stamina started to tank.

If it wasn't even, Vegeta wouldn't be reacting like that. #18 knew she would won because she had unlimited stamina, that's why Vegeta is "nothing special". Vegeta is a pretty transparent character, there hasn't been a single fight where he faced a stronger opponent him knowing this being the case, where he fought with confidence.
Trunks and Piccolo's claims, Vegeta's attitude, the fight lasting until Vegeta loses strength... That sentence only demonstrates that #18 was conscious that she was superior as a fighter, and considered how she didn't get tired, that was the case. But in terms of pure strength, #18 and Vegeta were more or less at the same level.

If you believe Goku was healed to full and SSJ only gives a 10x boost.

In fact, I reconsidered my stance since then. I now think that there was a boost that put Goku above his previous base state, and that the result of that plus the SSJ multiplier gave him 10 times the strength he had before at full force. As of now, I would say that goku was on the millions and that the SSJ multiplied his strength by 2-3 at best.

Then how was Goku going to win against Freeza on Earth when Freeza was stronger than ever?

Freezer was weaker than ever, as stated by Gohan when he arrived.

If Trunks was as strong as Goku when going up against Freeza why did Freeza not absolutely destroy him?

Because mecha-freezer <<<< Freezer, stated by Gohan.

Freesa heals himself when he goes from 2nd to 3rd form.

But that's not the same kind of transformation of a sayan turning into a SSJ. Cell also heals himself when going from a form to another, but then he doesn't when inside of a given form, he releases the SSJ aura.
Transforming into a SSJ has nothing to do with Freezer or Cell transformations, and the proof of that is Cell himself.

[Hitiro]

I'll respond to everything else later. It's late so I am too exhausted to argue the rest of the details.

In fact, I reconsidered my stance since then. I now think that there was a boost that put Goku above his previous base state, and that the result of that plus the SSJ multiplier gave him 10 times the strength he had before at full force. As of now, I would say that goku was on the millions and that the SSJ multiplied his strength by 2-3 at best.

He may as well have just continued to use KKx10 and KKx20 then. Goku could comfortably use KKx2 in the Namek arc without needing to use it in bursts. He demonstrated that when he powered up infront of Ginyu and tole him that this is "Nothing compared to when I use my power in 'bursts'." No need for Toriyama to do away with a technique that is vastly superior to SSJ if that was the case.

Then how was Goku going to win against Freeza on Earth when Freeza was stronger than ever?

Freezer was weaker than ever, as stated by Gohan when he arrived.

Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P9.7
Yamcha: “So this guy called ‘Fr…Freeza’ has such terrible…ab…absurdly large ki…?”
Gohan: “This isn’t it…he gets much, much stronger…!”

Gohan just said that he isn't using his full power. Never pertains to him being "weaker". Just suppressed.

If Trunks was as strong as Goku when going up against Freeza why did Freeza not absolutely destroy him?

Because mecha-freezer <<<< Freezer, stated by Gohan.

Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P13.3-4
Cold: “The Earthlings don’t matter, but the Super Saiyan alone we absolutely must exterminate, by any means. The one who holds the greatest power in the universe must without a doubt be our clan”
Freeza: “We can definitely defeat him if we go at him together, Papa. And I’ve powered up too, so I think I can probably go alone.”

Freeza actually says he has received a power up from being mechanised. So Mecha-Freeza >>>> Freeza.

Freesa heals himself when he goes from 2nd to 3rd form.

But that's not the same kind of transformation of a sayan turning into a SSJ. Cell also heals himself when going from a form to another, but then he doesn't when inside of a given form, he releases the SSJ aura.
Transforming into a SSJ has nothing to do with Freezer or Cell transformations, and the proof of that is Cell himself.

Also, Rocketman was the one to say this, not me.

[Herms]

(insert here any pathetic excuse you're going to say).

Cut it out, or you won't be allowed to post here anymore. Your entire attitude has become absolutely ridiculous.

Overall, I think this discussion has gone about as far as it can go. Everyone's stated their views and clearly nobody is going to be convinced by the other side. People need to think hard about whether their posts are necessary or are just going to further this endless back-and-forth.

[freezamite]

Before continuing with any discussion, I would like to clarify something.
I mean, we have this scene:


And Hitiro outright said that my affirmation of "Goku dodges the kienzan" was silly, because Goku didn't dodge, it was Freezer that failed.
Well, maybe it's my fault for not knowing how to read a manga, but my interpretation of that page is:
1. Freezer throws the kienzan.
2. Goku realizes that Freezer has thrown the kienzan.
3. Goku moves to a side.
4. The kienzan scratches Goku's face even when he has moved to the side (which in my opinion means that Goku dodged that with difficulty).

My question is really easy, how can someone say that Freezer missed and Goku didn't dodge? Why I'm a silly for defending that Goku dodged?
It's plainly obvious to me that to say that Freezer missed the target without Goku dodging is a lie and not an opinion, but if everybody agrees that someone can see this page and say that Goku didn't dodge and that this is such a solid fact that going against it is enough to call someone silly, then it won't be necessary for Herms to ban me, I will be the one leaving the forum and not participating any more.

Edit: After checking it wasn't the "Goku dodges the kienzan" that earned me the silly tag, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm of the believe that considering this not a dodge but a miss is just plain lying.

[Hitiro]

The thing is you say I contradict the manga when I don't. And you keep calling what I suggest "excuses" which is entirely offensive. They are my opinions.

You don't contradict the manga? Look, you're the author of "Krilin was moving fine" or "Goku didn't dodge the kienzan, Freezer missed". To me what's offensive is to lie when we are here in what in theory should be a discussion about the manga.
Once you've taken this to the point of outright lying, there's nothing disrespectful in saying what you do in order to not admit being wrong.

When I use the manga to try and argue my point you construed what I show you or just shrug off my comments as if I never said anything. I provided scans of "Kuririn moving fine" after approaching Goku. He was banged up but if he could jump over 30 ft into the air and land on top of a rock formation then I would say he doesn't have any problems moving about. You may disagree, but it looks that way to me. If he did have problems moving about then he would never have been able to make that jump. For me also, Freeza missing when Goku turned around is just my opinion. That is how I saw those panels play out. If you disagree then you're entitled to it. If Goku is in fact dodging the Kienzan then it does not show it very well. An up close shot of it brushing past his face as he had just turned around doesn't say he dodged it to me. If the panel showed his full body and him sliding to the side slightly then I would be inclined to agree with you.

Look, I've given you an explanation BASED ON FACTS OF THE MANGA that "demonstrates" that the Pilaf SSJ3 theory was plausible (going with your fallacious way of reasoning) and if you think that my excuse wasn't valid then ANSWER TO IT INSTEAD OF AVOIDING THE ANSWER AND REPEATING "YOU'RE WRONG" WITHOUT GIVING ANY EVIDENCE OF THAT.

All of your facts though have been more or less a different interpretation from my own opinions. There is nothing concrete about the facts you have provided. As such they can't even be considered facts. You say Goku has to have received all of his Ki back during the transformation. That is based on All of Gohan's feats? When Gohan is the most peculiar Saiyan in the whole series from being a weird hybrid.

The manga is subjective on this subject of whether Goku got all of his Ki back.

As subjective as Pilaf not being a SSJ3. You haven't been able to answer to a single one of my claims, and yet you are here saying that I'm wrong and you're right.

I'm saying that can't be right about Pilaf because it's a wild accusation based on unfounded claims. The only reason you use this as a claim is because it seems you are trying to mock my opinion by comparing your SSJ3 Pilaf "opinion" with it. He is never portrayed to have that strength in the manga and regardless of how you spin it there would have been some mention or inkling as to whether he could possibly be strong. There is at least a possibility that my opinion could be correct. With the "Goku got all of his Ki back." It is entirely possibly either of us can be right because it neither portrays or mentions either side. This is why this subject is entirely subjective to our own opinions. But all we ever get out of your SSJ3 Pilaf "opinion" is that he is weak. The manga isn't subjective around any of the scenes where we see him.

You are the one who keeps telling me I'm wrong.

WITH FACTS. WITH CHAPTERS AND PAGES OF THE MANGA THAT DEMONSTRATE IT (something that you've only done ONCE in this thread). And do you remember what happened when you proved one of your claims with the manga? That I acknowledged my mistake, something you're clearly unable to do.

Again, you call what you provided me facts. But everything you've tossed my way also can be seen as entirely subjective. Nothing you have provided has outright stated something to prove your claims. So I wouldn't consider them facts. But your own personal opinion of the events from the manga.

And participating in a discussion forum with the intention of never admitting when being wrong, that's the biggest disrespect one could ever possibly make.

But I have never done that? I have said time and time again I could be wrong. It is you refuses to believe that you could be wrong. Every post you send my way is with the intention that I must be wrong which is not how a debate should be handled. What you should sound like is: "Well, I disagree with your point. I feel it is more like this." however, every time I read something you post it sounds like this: "Sorry, you are completely wrong. That isn't how it works. Stop making excuses" It is one thing to disagree with my opinion, which I am perfectly fine with you doing. But it is another to tell me I must be wrong. The only person who should tell me I'm wrong is myself or the creator. You are free to try and convince me I am wrong but telling me I'm wrong isn't going to get either of us anywhere. Everyone's opinion should be equal. But you insist on placing yours above mine in every respect.

When there is no proof either way of either of us being right or not. My opinion is just as valid as yours

Stop saying that when you've still to prove one of your single claims and the few times you've tried to do so (except for the only legitimately good point you provided) you've outright lied.

I've tried to prove my claims but you ignore them or tell me I'm wrong. You don't even bother trying to see it from my perspective. I've shown you Kuririn scaling a 30 ft rock formation in a single jump and you refuse to believe his movement isn't impaired. If it was impaired then he would have never been able to make that jump.

Other than him who else is there?

The manga guide and dbgto's link to it. Do you think he doesn't count or that the manga guide of this site isn't valid enough? Well then, say it, but don't act if that wasn't there...

Dbgto's doesn't agree your whole argument that the multipliers the Daizenshuu give are wrong. He was merely putting in that the lines you were on about hadn't been translated and the manga guide agrees with you. Again, I don't know who actually did the manga guide. Was it Herms? Was it Akira Toriyama? Was it written as somebodies impression of the events of the manga? Or is everything in that manga guide right to a tee? And I never acted as if it weren't there. If you check one of my previous posts I pointed it out and asked who the manga guide was done by. I even took the time to put up the page in question to make sure the manga guide matches what was said in the Japanese pages text.

On the other hand Cursed Lemon, Darkprince410, DBZGTKOSDH and Rocketman all have a similar opinion as me.

In fact and despite that I'm conscious on that "unified front" of yours, the only think that you al have similar is that you're pretty invested on downplaying Freezer's strength to put it below a SSJ level. Other than that, you've all come with different excuses. Ones saying that there was no energy recovery for Goku, you saying that he regained part of his strength but not all of it, others saying that the injuries doesn't take one's energy away...
Your excuses, because they're just made up theories in order to avoid admitting not being right on that topic, are not based on anything more than your pride and personal investment on making Freezer looking weaker than he is (in the manga).

You're saying everyone is coming up with excuses but the whole scene is entirely subjective. As I keep telling you. So we are entitled to make theories about Goku and his strength at the at point.

whether Goku gets boosted to full Ki or not is entirely subjective.

As entirely subjective as Pilaf being a SSJ3 hiding his power.

How is the Pilaf having SSJ3 entirely subjective when one side is only shown in the manga? If it shows in the manga that he has at least some semblance in strength then it would be subjective. But only one side is shown in the manga so it isn't subjective. Goku having full power or not is subjective because it pushes neither side.

No one ever says anything about Goku getting a rage boost back to full Ki.

No one said that about Gohan before he had the first rage boost either. Goku's personality wasn't the same as Gohan, and it's obvious no one expected him to have Gohan's reaction. That being said, he had it. He reacted like Gohan reacts in that situation, so he got the same benefits that Gohan got in those situations.

Because Goku reacts like Gohan he must have the same boost? As everyone knows Gohan is the weirdest character in the whole series. There really is no point in comparing the two. Freeza and King Cold were considered mutants of their race with battle powers greatly surpassing all of them. There is no one like them in their entire race. The same with Piccolo, the "child of Katatz" was considered to be incredible for his race, there was no one like him.

And yes, what you refuse to answer one time after the other is the OBVIOUS FACT that if Goku didn't regain his full strength he wouldn't have transformed into SSJ. Rage boosts alone aren't enough to turn anyone into a SSJ, that has been stated pretty clearly in the manga with Gohan having DOZENS of rage boosts and being unable to transform into a SSJ until he had enough strength to do so (in the ROSAT).

I have answered this. In the manga it says Goku surpassed the Saiyan limits when he arrived on Namek. And I have always considered 90,000 to be the battle power needed to transform, excluding the rage and calm heart. Gohan never surpassed this battle power without rage boosts. I believe. But still, we shouldn't even be comparing Gohan to Goku or Vegeta. He is a different breed of Saiyan.

The manga doesn't state rage boosts for Goku or Vegeta though? We only have characters state Gohan has had a boost when he has.

THE FACTS are also statements in a manga. You know, there hasn't to be anyone explicitly saying everything, specially when every single one of your claims is not only not based on anything but directly contradicting the manga.

Again, my claims haven't contradicted the manga. Every time Gohan has received a rage boost someone has commented on it. The only time it is ever not stated is the Vegeta fight we are on about.

I mean, how can you defend a completely pulled-from-the-ass stance of "first transformation recoveries" when that has never been stated to exist in the manga, and then say that "nobody says Goku got a rage boost" when he himself is the first to say that he is "really enraged" or that the "anger awoke the violence on his heart". GOKU HIMSELF COUPLED WITH THE FACTS stated that he got a rage boost.

As I said, I don't believe in the "first transformation recoveries" but that is some peoples opinion. It is neither proved nor disproved that it is possible. Just because Goku is enraged doesn't mean he had a rage boost though. Goku has been angry before and not received a rage boost. He was angry when he found out everyone died by the Saiyan's yet he didn't get a rage boost.

Unless it is stated by the manga this argument is entirely subjective and my opinion, as well as the opinions of the others, is as valid as yours.

As I've said before, you outright ignoring what's said on the manga or even transforming it to your convenience doesn't make those drawings to disappear.

Not ignored anything. What has been in the manga on these points has been subjective. Anybody would tell you the same.

But there are no examples in the manga were it is stated.

Goku going from "I'm not able to stand-up" to SSJ is not a stated fact? Vegeta going from mini-Cell levels of power to be powerful enough to survive an attack of SSJ2 Cell even without loosing consciousness is not a proof? Of course they're no matter how hard you try to hide it.

Goku was standing before Kuririn got killed. Nothing is said about Vegeta getting stronger when he attacks Cell. Just because he survived an attack that means he boosted? You're assuming Cell actually put effort into hitting Vegeta? Kuririn got struck by one of Perfect Cell's kicks. The strength difference between those two is huge. Yet Kuririn survived long enough to get healed by a Senzu bean. He didn't blown into a million pieces like we see Gohan do to the Cell Jr's, or Babidi when Boo hits him in the head. The difference between Vegeta and Super Perfect Cell isn't that stark. And Super Perfect Cell still isn't on SSJ2 Gohan's level as Gohan was still able to win with only half of his Ki. Had Gohan not taken that damage to save Vegeta then Gohan would have one all the same.

Gohan is also a Saiyan hybrid so he is unique

Yes, so unique that we have 3 sayan hybrids. The hybrid sayan theory regarding rage boost was only valid until we discovered that rage boost were something related to each one's personality and circumstancial facts of the moment, and not with being hybrid or anything like that.

How many rage-boosts did Trunks have? 0 in the present timeline, only one in the future one. And he was an hybrid. But he had a violent personality so he didn't have Gohan's rage boosts.

Gohan is different than Trunks and Goten. The Daizenshuu even pertains to it saying that Trunks and Goten are of the Saiyan Hybrid type that are born without tails. However they are gifted with immense strength from the start. As opposed to the Saiyan Hybrid type that are born with tails, which is Gohan. Who have huge potential.

Are you aware that when reading a fictional story the characters speak only from their perspective? That means that Vegeta's supposition of Gohan having those rage boosts because he's an hybrid is valid until it's demonstrated false, and that happens when we see other hybrids without that kind of power ups and non-hybrids having rage boosts.

You say that but has it ever been stated false until B.O.G.? Because all of the rage moments Goku and Vegeta have we are never told if they have a rage boost or not. So it is entirely subjective. We can only make assumptions from what we see in the manga. And that is what you and I are both doing.

Comparing Gohan, which is obviously different from Goku and Vegeta, is just silly.

What's the epitome of silliness is to outright lie about easily checkable facts like "Goku didn't dodge the kienzan"
To say that Gohan can't be compared with Goku and Vegeta (it was Goku's son, for god's sake) seems also pretty silly to me, specially when this claim is made in order to justify "first transformations recoveries" that have never been stated to exist on the manga.

I'm not lying, in my opinion Goku turned around and it just missed him. This claim isn't to justify "first transformations recoveries" either. I don't believe them. I was merely bringing up some other peoples viewpoint on the situation. It is a plausible opinion/theory. Nothing contradicts it.

The SSJ multiplier is going to push his Ki to the point where he has enough to move about anyway.

The SSJ multiplier is not applied when you're not a SSJ. What nonsense is this?

I'm not on about his movement in base. I mean that even if he is sluggish in base then that isn't going to matter once he goes SSJ as long as he is above Freeza in strength. For base strength however, Freeza's battle power was diminishing horribly during the battle. Goku states this and tells him that he wasn't even a challenge anymore before he flew away. We don't know how low his battle power was when Goku turned back.

Goku demonstrates getting exhausted as a SSJ during the fight. Huffing and puffing only to be perfectly fine a few pages down the line.

Yes, after enraging for the second time after hearing how Freezer mocked krilin's death. Although not huffing and puffing doesn't mean to be in perfect condition (that's the only thing you've been able to prove during this discussion, don't contradict yourself again and at least don't do it in that point ), it just means that they no longer have problems to breathe.

I don't see how I was moving to contradict myself. I was pointing towards Goku not being in perfect condition and that is why he was panting. It would be easier for him to start running out of breath if he isn't in perfect condition. But just because Freeza mocks Kuririn's death doesn't mean a second enrage(rage boost). He could have regained his breath. We've already established you don't have to be panting to not be in a good physical state. Just because Goku isn't panting after Freeza mocks Kuririn's death doesn't mean his physical state had recovered. He could be in the same state.

Stamina and Ki don't have to be tied together.

Have you ever practised any sport? Have you ever run even if it's been only a few kilometers? Not huffing doesn't mean you have recovered all your stamina, it just means that your body has enough oxygen at that point to sustain it's current energy consumption (aerobic/anaerobic efforts)...

Exactly my point up above. Just because Goku stopped panting when he got angry at Freeza as a SSJ doesn't mean his stamina or his Ki had returned through a rage boost. It is subjective. You choose to believe he does. I choose to believe he doesn't. Neither opinion can really be said is wrong. Unless we have the manga state somewhere that he regained his strength during that scene it is open to interpretation.

How is it a lie? It is an opinion.

No, it's not an opinion. How's an opinion to say that Goku didn't dodge when he moved his head to the side in order to avoid being hit by a kienzan that despite doing that cut his face? That's not an opinion. 2+2=6 is not an opinion, it's just one of the most stupid claims I've ever seen.

I see the scene as Goku turning around and the Kienzan just brushing past him, missing. That is my opinion. You can say he dodged it, that doesn't mean my opinion is wrong. It just means I have a different opinion of what happened than you.

Again, could you please try to be less offensive?

How can I be less offensive when you're here not to discuss but to dismiss other people's opinions only because you can't possibly be wrong in your imagination. You've lied consciously! That's the most disrespectful and offensive action one could do on a forum!

I am discussing, I have not once dismissed your, or others, opinions. In fact I included some other peoples opinion because it is a plausible idea(first transformations recovery). And I have also said several times that I could be wrong. Even during this post I said I could be wrong. And I haven't lied either. Just because I have a different way of interpreting than you, you have to call me a liar? If I see that the Kienzan missed because Goku turned around that is my interpretation and opinion. Doesn't mean you aren't entitled to yours. Goku could possibly be dodging. I never excluded that from when I read it.

Taken straight from my Viz manga

In fact, are you aware that this translation is the one that specifically uses the expression "same size ki" when speaking about Trunks's power as a SSJ compared to Goku in Namek?
So you're just using a wrong translation to prove your point, and you do that knowing it's badly translated because otherwise you would use it to defend the rest of your points, which clearly isn't the case.

Gohan doesn't use "same size ki" in the Viz manga.

Spoiler:

The Viz translation isn't that badly translated, they try to stick close to the Japanese manga as much as possible.

Check the screenshot I took of the manga page up above. Gohan never says he can't move. Only that it hurts too much to.

In a translation that directly changed dozens of sentences and that was everything but accurate. Yes, in the Viz version on the manga that would be the case, but in the Viz version of the manga Gohan clearly says that Trunks "has the same size-ki" than Goku in Namek, but you're not using that translation here, are you?

Again, look at the image above, Gohan never says Trunks "has the same size-ki".

This site is supposed to promote healthy discussion about the franchise.

Healthy discussion involves not lying, and you've done that. From here onwards, when I see that kind of attitude, I can't do anything but to denounce it. Stop lying, and I'll stop telling you liar. As easy as that!

Again, I haven't lied. And I wish you would stop saying I have. Just because I have a different opinion of what happens on pages than you do. Like the whole "Goku dodging the Kienzan". Do I call you a liar because you think the Viz version of the manga says that Trunks "has the same size-ki"? No, I don't. You clearly made a mistake with that. Just because I think the Kienzan missed during Goku mid-turning around to face the direction of Freeza does not make me a liar.

Kuririn after he reaches Goku scales a giant rock formation in a single bound.

Finally another valid example. Yes, the problem is that Goku and Krilin were doing that since chapter 1 when they had a couple of units. Besides that, it seems that Krilin is affected by the energy Goku gives to him, because before receiving the Genkidama Krilin was barely able to walk.
That being said, this doesn't proof Krilin was moving fine. Krilin was above Raditz, him being able to jump over a rock formation after receiving energy from Goku (although you could say that all that energy was in the ball and Krilin absorbed none of it) doesn't negate the FACT that he had a lot of problems to even stand up some pages before.

This is an example I have said in my other posts several times yet you refused to acknowledge it or just laughed it off. Saying the energy Kuririn gets from the Genki Dama is what allowed him to do that though is supposition as you have accused me of multiple times. Yes, he could have used the energy, or he could not have. This is the exact same case as Goku gaining all his Ki back or only some of it. There is no right answer because we aren't told either way. We can only interpret what actually happens. I also don't disagree that Kuririn had problems before he reached Goku. For all we know he is still reeling from the blow up until that point. That wasn't really the point in contention though, the point was that Kuririn "eventually" proved he could move fine after taking a blow much worse than Gohan's two hits. That was the whole reason for me bringing up the point.

So his movement isn't impaired.

So Krilin, who was much stronger than Raditz, demonstrated being at full condition because he managed to jump over a rock. Incredible.

Kuririn demonstrating he could scale that rock formation means he wasn't affected that badly by the blow. I never said he was in full condition. He was able to move so Gohan who received two less damaging attacks should still be able to move.

He hits her in the stomach and she takes absolutely no damage, she doesn't even flinch. She just smiles. She then strikes him in the stomach in return which cause him to keel over in pain.

That's the scene where Vegeta wasn't fighting seriously and #18 was. Of course, #18 fighting seriously surpassed Vegeta. When both of them got serious, the fight became even to the point where Trunks thought Vegeta could win.

Yes, Trunks believe Vegeta could win. That doesn't mean it was anywhere close to being true. I honestly don't think Vegeta was holding back after the headbutt she delivered which made him bleed as it made him angry. So the fact When Vegeta got serious he still wasn't able to damage her at all proves he wasn't much of a match for her. While every blow she landed showed signs of damage. In the fight with Piccolo and #17 they were both about even and both thought seriously, yet Piccolo managed to make #17 bleed. Honestly, #18 was still a good deal stronger than Vegeta. And again, #18 even confirms that. Calling him not much.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Up until now excuses had been contradictory but with a certain limit. Now we've reached the point of being contradictory between them even in TWO CONSECUTIVE SENTENCES!!! LOL

... What are you talking about? In the first sentence, I was talking about rage boosts without transformation. In the second, I was talking about the stamina boost Goku took through his first transformation. You are the one that is calling it a rage boost, not me. I disagree with you, and that's what we are arguing about right not.

Look, that "it has never happened before or after" would be valid if it wasn't because Goku directly states (in the manga) that he had had a rage boost (pacific heart whose violence awoke because of a rage fit).

Again, where is the power increase stated there? All Goku says is that he is just angry.

I don't know if that has been a misunderstanding or if you've reached the point where it doesn't matter what I say that you'll always try to contradict it with whatever excuse you can think off.

It's a misunderstanding. I misremembered this statement of yours:

The term "rage boost" is obviously never used in the manga, but if it was only a matter of getting angry, then Vegeta would've become SSJ much before Goku.

I don't know if that has been a misunderstanding or if you've reached the point where it doesn't matter what I say that you'll always try to contradict it with whatever excuse you can think off. Kid, this is just a manga we are discussing about, take it easy and don't get so emotionally invested on the discussion.

I... What? When did I get "emotionally invested" on the discussion? You are the weird guy that rights essays-replies about a manga in almost every post you make.

Goku speaks about that kind of rage, and we all know what that feeling does to the other characters.

Name these "other characters". One is Gohan.

To be sincere, I've been "holding back" a couple of scenes of the manga hoping you would realize your mistakes, but now that I see how you straight up lied and also how you aren't afraid of contradicting yourself as long as that's enough for you to avoid admitting you're wrong on anything I think I'll just point how clueless you really are when it comes to Dragon Ball related things.

What the hell are you talking about? You are making things up (below about Vegeta getting a rage boost against Cell), and see statements saying other things than what they are actually saying (above, about Goku "saying" that he got a rage boost).

That's the first thing I was holding back. HOW CAN ANYONE EVEN INSINUATE THAT FANS ONLY CONSIDER SOMETHING BEING A RAGE BOOST WHEN THERE'RE NO TRANSFORMATIONS INVOLVED, WHEN THE MOST FAMOUS RAGE BOOST IN THE WHOLE SERIES IS THE ONE TURNING GOHAN INTO A SSJ2???

This is a rage boost + transformation. It is stated in the manga that Gohan got an extra boost from his rage plus the transformation boost. Nothing like this is ever stated for SS Goku.

Without transforming at all or without transforming for the first time? Because there's quite an evident rage boost for Vegeta when he sees Trunks being killed by Cell. It wasn't enough for Vegeta to damage Cell, but the power up was pretty evident considering that Vegeta was only at "mini-Cell" levels of strength prior to that (and we all know what happened to the mini-Cells when a SSJ2 attacked them).

What are you talking about? Where did you see any statement about Vegeta getting stronger than before? What feats did Vegeta achieve that he couldn't normally achieve?

Any other examples? Don't hold anything back, show me everything you got.

[freezamite]

It's a shame that you replied to me with so much detail, only to confirm that I won't continue discussing with you seeing how you'll never admit when you're wrong.

I'm not lying, in my opinion Goku turned around and it just missed him.

Then in my opinion King Piccolo was stronger than Bu. See? Easy. Look, this is why I say you'll never admit when you're wrong. You need Goku not to dodge that kienzan in order to support your stance of a weakened Goku that didn't fully recover his strength, and even when it's plainly obvious that Goku dodges (in the 3rd panel it's blatantly obvious that he moves to a SIDE (which has nothing to do with turning around), and to make things worse for you, in the fourth panel Goku is clearly looking at the kienzan which means that he had enough KI to see it coming) you will stick with your stance of him not dodging at any cost because otherwise you're "screwed" in your "I'll never admit defeat" stance.

If you refuse to admit your error in something as obvious as that, why would I lose my time trying to prove my points? Nothing matters to you, not even what's DRAWN ON THE MANGA, so unless you change your attitude I'll never answer to your messages from now on on any subject and I expect you to do the same with my messages.

Up until now excuses had been contradictory but with a certain limit. Now we've reached the point of being contradictory between them even in TWO CONSECUTIVE SENTENCES!!! LOL

... What are you talking about? In the first sentence, I was talking about rage boosts without transformation. In the second, I was talking about the stamina boost Goku took through his first transformation. You are the one that is calling it a rage boost, not me. I disagree with you, and that's what we are arguing about right not.

Yes, I know that.
What's contradictory is that you dismiss my "rage boost" claim based on that "never in the manga it's said that Goku having that feeling increases his strength without being a transformation there" even when we have precedents of other characters having those boosts when this happens, and then you come up with a "first transformation recovery" that no one, never, in any page of the manga speaks about.
What's contradictory is your criteria when discussing.

It's a misunderstanding.

I'm glad that's the case.

You are the weird guy that rights essays-replies about a manga in almost every post you make.

I don't think that justifying my claims with manga pages and chapters has anything to do with personal investment with a certain character. I at least don't doubt even for a second to admit when I'm wrong, something that someone who's personally invested on defending a certain stance will never do (like Hitiro demonstrated in his posts).

This is a rage boost + transformation.

And how is that any different to what happens to Goku?

It is stated in the manga that Gohan got an extra boost from his rage plus the transformation boost. Nothing like this is ever stated for SS Goku.

The first time healing transformations aren't stated anywhere either, and here you are with them as an explanation.

What are you talking about? Where did you see any statement about Vegeta getting stronger than before?

I don't need any statement to confirm that Vegeta was above a mini-Cell in terms of power. I mean, is there any statement about Bu being stronger than Tao Pai Pai? Considering how many un-stated assumptions you make, I find it hilarious that now everything needs to be stated even when it's clearly drawn.

What feats did Vegeta achieve that he couldn't normally achieve?

Surviving a SSJ2 punch from cell, and before saying that Cell didn't attack Vegeta with any strength, look at what happens to Gohan when he tries to defend Vegeta from Cell's attack. He also launching a casual ki-blast (in the sense that it wasn't a special technique by any means) that obliged SSJ2 Cell to take a more defensive stance (not enough to cause him any injury, but much more devastating than Vegeta's previous attempt against a much weaker Perfect Cell that was suppressing his strength (chapter 385 page 6)). I don't have the manga right now to post a photo of it like with Goku's kienzan dodge, but do I really need to take a photo of chapter 415 page 6?
Vegeta wasn't at a "mini Cell" level of strength at that point, it's obvious that he had a rage boost.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

[quote="Hitiro"][/quote]

Your last post provides information from Daizenshuu, the information is in this sentence (from your previous post):
"If Goku is at 20 million and he gets a Zenkai that puts him at between 21 million and 23 million there is relatively no difference. But Goku going from 90,000 to 3 million makes him several times stronger."
The info that Goku has 3 million when he begins to fight against Frieza is only in the Daizenshuu, can you post a page from the manga where this information is (3.000.000 thing)?


"Not that I ever recall the manga saying that Goku, Vegeta and Trunks had reached their limits. When is it said? Can you give me the quote and the chapter/page?"

I never said that they have reached their limit as Super Saiyan, I'm stating that they have reached their limit in the Base Saiyan Form, stops inventing words of my mouth.And I had already placed the evidence, in my previous post, when Vegeta turns for the first time in SS he explains in detail that he trained hard (and a long and difficult training by the way) and he did not see improvements in power, by this he reached his limit in his Base Form, to see that it has reached its limit on his Base Form and with a heart full of pure hate, he managed to overcome that barrier and turned into Super Saiyan. Basically just before his fight against # 19.If you want the chapter you have to read the manga.


Also, you haven't answered my question. If the Saiyan's can't increase their base powers any more. Why is Goku training as a base Saiyan in Heaven? Surely he should be training as a SSJ because training as a base Saiyan would provide no increase according to you?


To keep his Base Form always in maximum. If they fail (or leave) to continue training (for a long period of time), the base form of the Saiyans become weaker over time. Example - Gohan at the beginning of the Buu Saga.


I also didn't provide those chapters because of Zenkai's. I provided those chapters to point out that the story has talked about limits multiple times and every time the characters have been mentioned to surpass their "limits." So even if it does say that the Saiyan's had reached their limits it is not definite that they couldn't overcome them. The narrator said Goku had surpassed Saiyan limits when he arrived on Namek when he reached 90,000. Vegeta then said Goku surpassed his limits yet again when he reached a battle power high enough to fend off a suppressed Freeza. Limits have always been overcome before. So why can't they overcome them now?



What they were training for the ROSAT in the Cell Saga? Exactly, the forms of Super Saiyan.

"Vegeta's fight with #18 was not close."

You are wrong, the fight of Vegeta against # 18 was equilibrated in any term. Even Piccolo says that the ability of Androids on not losing power, was the deciding factor in the fight. He says that # 18 begins to gain advantage when Vegeta starts to get tired and # 18 (which has the ability to not lose energy in a fight), gain the advantage in combat and eventually win the fight against Vegeta.


" And again, Zenkai's had become so minimal at this point it wouldn't have mattered if he got the Zenkai. It wouldn't have changed the outcome. The same with Gohan vs Bootenks. If Bootenks was 400% stronger than Gohan and Gohan received a Zenkai then Bootenks is still going to be 399% stronger than him."

The manga gives us information contrary to your theory. When Cell escapes from Piccolo, Trunks and Krilin. Cell sees Vegeta (Super Saiyan in) flying, Cell says that Vegeta is much stronger than he expected. After Cell was absorbing hundreds of thousands of humans, the manga (unfortunately) does not give us the exact number but a rectangle of manga page has this information. Hundreds of thousands, can be a number between 100.000 and 900.000 people. If we consider that a human has an average of 5 units. The absorption of Humans gave Cell a value between 500.000 and 4.500.000. If Goku had 3 million and his Super Saiyan 150 000 000, these numbers would be ridiculously low in comparison and they are strong in the Cell and Buu sagas. First, the Daizenshuu info is contradictory to the manga. And you use the 3.000.000 thing from Daizenshuu (see your previous posts): ""If Goku is at 20 million and he gets a Zenkai that puts him at between 21 million and 23 million there is relatively no difference. But Goku going from 90,000 to 3 million makes him several times stronger."

Second, according to Bootenks (which has the ability to sense Ki, and moreover he had absorbed Piccolo - which also has this ability) says with all the confession than Gohan had no power increase after healing from Dende. The rest are all theories than are not based on the manga. Bootenks states that Gohan had no increase in energy (or slightly increase or a large increase). None.

[Hitiro]

It's a shame that you replied to me with so much detail, only to confirm that I won't continue discussing with you seeing how you'll never admit when you're wrong.

I'm sorry to hear that. I was fine discussing things with you but it is you who'll never admit he is wrong. I have already, on several occasions throughout my posts, said that I may be wrong. However this subject we are debating on is very subjective and unless we actually see a statement in the manga that says Goku recovered all of his Ki there will be no definitive proof that either of us is wrong. A prime example happened in my earlier post where you were adamant that the SSJ multiplier is smaller than 10x yet I specifically showed you that can't be the case because as with Herms strength checker translation it states that Mecha Freeza is even stronger than he once was. Yet you completely ignored the statement; because you were wrong, and decided to attack one of my other statements to justify yourself. You literally can't admit I'm right on this occasion because there is no other way to explain how Goku or Trunks would handle Mecha Freeza with such a low multiplier. Unless you believe that during the year Goku was away he got 50x stronger. But then that would also contradict your belief about Gohan mixing up Trunks and Goku because Trunks was at the same strength level as Goku was on Namek. He would also need to be 50x stronger than Namek Goku in order for him to defeat Mecha Freeza which would mean your whole argument is null.

I'm not lying, in my opinion Goku turned around and it just missed him.

Then in my opinion King Piccolo was stronger than Bu. See? Easy. Look, this is why I say you'll never admit when you're wrong. You need Goku not to dodge that kienzan in order to support your stance of a weakened Goku that didn't fully recover his strength, and even when it's plainly obvious that Goku dodges (in the 3rd panel it's blatantly obvious that he moves to a SIDE (which has nothing to do with turning around), and to make things worse for you, in the fourth panel Goku is clearly looking at the kienzan which means that he had enough KI to see it coming) you will stick with your stance of him not dodging at any cost because otherwise you're "screwed" in your "I'll never admit defeat" stance.

Feel free to believe King Piccolo is stronger than Boo. I believe King Piccolo is stronger than Boo too. It's obvious that King Piccolo is stronger then Boo because he has destroyed more of the planet. Nappa is also stronger than Boo.

I don't need Goku to not dodge that Kienzan to support my stance on a weakened Goku. That is just my opinion. Freeza's Ki was in rapid decline and wasn't even a challenge to Goku anymore. Goku could have probably dodged the Kienzan even with his weakened self. As I said, I don't believe Goku got all of his strength back. But he did get some of it. I have no reason to believe he couldn't dodge the Kienzan in his current state. Not like he hasn't dodge things in worse states before, I refer you to the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai where Goku had his legs and arms destroyed by Piccolo and had a massive hole in his chest which was gushing blood. And again, I said I could be wrong about this too. It is you who insists that I'm of the "I'll never admit defeat" stance. When I have said time and time again that I may be wrong on things. I see it as subjective that Goku dodged it or not. It is highly possible he did. But from my view I don't think he did. It's just an opinion so get over it.

I find it funny that you think I'm "screwed" on this. As if it wins the whole argument. When you're pretty much "screwed" on the SSJ multiplier stance because Mecha Freeza states himself he is stronger than he was before thanks to being mechanised. And if the multiplier is as high as 50x that nullifies your argument of Goku getting back all of his strength too because otherwise he would have been destroying 100% Freeza if they weren't both damaged.

If you refuse to admit your error in something as obvious as that, why would I lose my time trying to prove my points? Nothing matters to you, not even what's DRAWN ON THE MANGA, so unless you change your attitude I'll never answer to your messages from now on on any subject and I expect you to do the same with my messages.

I don't see how it is an error when I pointed out multiple times it can be seen as if he is dodging it. I just choose to stick to my opinion that it missed. There is no harm in it. I see it that way and it may be wrong. As I said on several occasions.

I'm also actually done with you now. Because every time I respond to you, you always attack me or anybody with a differing opinion than you. And you have an incessant need to call other people liars or that they are wrong when you can't even admit that you can be wrong yourself. In every post I have done I have always put in the fact that I may be wrong. And not once have I seen you do that. Your posts are always very toxic, I mean even an admin on here has clearly pointed it out. I feel myself and the others in the thread have been more than accommodating and patient given the circumstances of your posts. Unless you can curb your need to make poisonous remarks and try and tackle this debate from a purely objective standpoint I don't see why I should use up my free time tackling your offensive remarks. If you do decide to respond with a more positive attitude and can admit the possibility that you may also be wrong then I will respond. I also think I have proven enough that Goku's battle power wasn't full when he went SSJ and that the SSJ multiplier is at least 40x. The whole Mecha Freeza being stronger than 100% Freeza is a valid enough point to argue my case. And there really is no possible way you can tell me that this point isn't valid without deconstructing your own argument and having them not sound contradictory. Though feel free to try and explain it. I am interested in how you try and go about explaining this without unravelling everything you've said up until now.

I never said that they have reached their limit as Super Saiyan, I'm stating that they have reached their limit in the Base Saiyan Form, stops inventing words of my mouth.And I had already placed the evidence, in my previous post, when Vegeta turns for the first time in SS he explains in detail that he trained hard (and a long and difficult training by the way) and he did not see improvements in power, by this he reached his limit in his Base Form, to see that it has reached its limit on his Base Form and with a heart full of pure hate, he managed to overcome that barrier and turned into Super Saiyan. Basically just before his fight against # 19.If you want the chapter you have to read the manga.

I never said anything about "reaching their limit as Super Saiyan" I was talking about their base form too. You are the one putting words in my mouth. I'm asking you when is it stated that they had reached their base limits? Vegeta says he realised his limits. Never said he reached his limits.

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P11.1-5
Kuririn: “Th-that’s impossible…! Wh-why can he become a Super Saiyan…?! Don’t you have to have a tranquil heart to become one…!?”
Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”

And again, not that this matters. Because as I have said in my posts previously, multiple times, the Saiyan's have surpassed their limits multiple times. So if Vegeta had reached his limits then why would he not be able to surpass his limits again?

Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P12.5
Narrator: “Even Goku hasn’t realized…That somewhere along the line he’s acquired enough power to surpass the level of Saiyan limits…”

Chapter: 307 (DBZ 113), P8.2-3
Vegeta: “He’s not the same Kakarot as before…S-seems he’s finally overcome the wall of his limits…Is he a Super Saiyan…!?”

Multiple times it is said that they have surpassed their limits. So I don't see why they can'e surpass their limits again.

Your last post provides information from Daizenshuu, the information is in this sentence (from your previous post):
"If Goku is at 20 million and he gets a Zenkai that puts him at between 21 million and 23 million there is relatively no difference. But Goku going from 90,000 to 3 million makes him several times stronger."
The info that Goku has 3 million when he begins to fight against Freeza is only in the Daizenshuu, can you post a page from the manga where this information is (3.000.000 thing)?

I was merely using these figures as an example. Believe what you want for Goku's strength. But Goku did get several times stronger when he healed before fighting Freeza. My point was as the Saiyan's get stronger the Zenkai's would be less significant. If we treat 3 million as the maximum Zenkai a Saiyan gets and pretend Goku is at 3 million. Then give him the Zenkai and he would be twice as strong, right? Because he'd be at 6 million. But when you put Goku at something like 20 million. A 3 million boost is nothing. It is only 15% instead of the example earlier where it was 100% increase. Now what if we put Goku at 200 million? The Zenkai becomes a 1.5% increase. See? So it may not be that the Zenkai's are gone but rather they have become so small they are insignificant.

To keep his Base Form always in maximum. If they fail (or leave) to continue training (for a long period of time), the base form of the Saiyans become weaker over time. Example - Gohan at the beginning of the Buu Saga.

You can't use Gohan as an example in the Boo saga because Gohan stopped training all together. That was why he was bad. Are you saying that if a Saiyan is in SSJ and they continuously train and ignore their base form that the SSJ training won't keep their base form fit? It is still the same body it seems silly that they'd need to train in their regular form as if there body was a different body. I could understand it with SSJ4 because you sort of get a new body. But with SSJ it just the same body. Comparing Gohan who didn't train at all for the 7 years to Goku and Vegeta who are actively training as SSJ's is not a good comparison.

What they were training for the ROSAT in the Cell Saga? Exactly, the forms of Super Saiyan.

Why were they after a new form of SSJ? Because it is faster. As I explained my last post to you. If it takes Goku 8 years to double his strength then getting a new SSJ transformation which is stronger than the original is faster. Correct? At that time what they needed was a quick way of getting stronger. So they were trying to achieve a SSJ2.

You are wrong, the fight of Vegeta against # 18 was equilibrated in any term. Even Piccolo says that the ability of Androids on not losing power, was the deciding factor in the fight. He says that # 18 begins to gain advantage when Vegeta starts to get tired and # 18 (which has the ability to not lose energy in a fight), gain the advantage in combat and eventually win the fight against Vegeta.

It wasn't equal at all. Even while Vegeta was at full energy he couldn't damage #18, he never made her bleed like Piccolo did to #17 after he fused with Kami. #16 said Piccolo is about as strong as #17. But #18 could make him bleed just fine. Look at the part when they both start fighting. Why is it that Piccolo who is as strong as #17 can make #17 bleed but when Vegeta fights #18 and you think they are even the only one bleeding in the fight is Vegeta?

The manga gives us information contrary to your theory. When Cell escapes from Piccolo, Trunks and Krilin. Cell sees Vegeta (Super Saiyan in) flying, Cell says that Vegeta is much stronger than he expected. After Cell was absorbing hundreds of thousands of humans, the manga (unfortunately) does not give us the exact number but a rectangle of manga page has this information. Hundreds of thousands, can be a number between 100.000 and 900.000 people. If we consider that a human has an average of 5 units. The absorption of Humans gave Cell a value between 500.000 and 4.500.000. If Goku had 3 million and his Super Saiyan 150 000 000, these numbers would be ridiculously low in comparison and they are strong in the Cell and Buu sagas. First, the Daizenshuu info is contradictory to the manga. And you use the 3.000.000 thing from Daizenshuu (see your previous posts): ""If Goku is at 20 million and he gets a Zenkai that puts him at between 21 million and 23 million there is relatively no difference. But Goku going from 90,000 to 3 million makes him several times stronger."

Second, according to Bootenks (which has the ability to sense Ki, and moreover he had absorbed Piccolo - which also has this ability) says with all the confession than Gohan had no power increase after healing from Dende. The rest are all theories than are not based on the manga. Bootenks states that Gohan had no increase in energy (or slightly increase or a large increase). None.

We don't know how Cell's absorption works on humans though? He absorbs the entire body of the humans. That includes a whole lot more than Ki. It includes nutrients from food, their blood, their muscle, their blood sugar, everything.

Again, if Gohan's Zenkai increased his battle power by 1% it would be so negligible it wouldn't be worth mentioning. What Bootenks says is that he hasn't "powered up" which I would consider as him saying he hasn't become a challenge in my opinion. And if the Zenkai is only a 1% increase Bootenks probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Basically. A fly is still a fly.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It's a shame that you replied to me with so much detail, only to confirm that I won't continue discussing with you seeing how you'll never admit when you're wrong.

Why would I admit that I'm wrong when I don't even believe that I'm wrong? If I believed so, I would admit it, I have no problem to do so, and I've done it many times here.

What's contradictory is that you dismiss my "rage boost" claim based on that "never in the manga it's said that Goku having that feeling increases his strength without being a transformation there" even when we have precedents of other characters having those boosts when this happens, and then you come up with a "first transformation recovery" that no one, never, in any page of the manga speaks about.

No one ever says that Goku increased his power through his rage as well.

And how is that any different to what happens to Goku?

Unlike in Gohan's case, it is never stated that Goku gets stronger when he gets angry. Not even in this specific case, unlike Gohan in this specific case.

The first time healing transformations aren't stated anywhere either, and here you are with them as an explanation.

I know, this is why I call this a theory, not a fact. This is what I believe that makes more sense. You can disagree with this, since it's not a fact.

I don't need any statement to confirm that Vegeta was above a mini-Cell in terms of power. I mean, is there any statement about Bu being stronger than Tao Pai Pai? Considering how many un-stated assumptions you make, I find it hilarious that now everything needs to be stated even when it's clearly drawn.

Yes, you have. There is evidence that Boo is stronger than Taopaipai, since we know that Goku is stronger than Taopaipai, and we know that Boo is stronger than base Goku. So, Boo is stronger than Taopaipai.

Surviving a SSJ2 punch from cell, and before saying that Cell didn't attack Vegeta with any strength, look at what happens to Gohan when he tries to defend Vegeta from Cell's attack. He also launching a casual ki-blast (in the sense that it wasn't a special technique by any means) that obliged SSJ2 Cell to take a more defensive stance (not enough to cause him any injury, but much more devastating than Vegeta's previous attempt against a much weaker Perfect Cell that was suppressing his strength (chapter 385 page 6)). I don't have the manga right now to post a photo of it like with Goku's kienzan dodge, but do I really need to take a photo of chapter 415 page 6?
Vegeta wasn't at a "mini Cell" level of strength at that point, it's obvious that he had a rage boost.

You may have a point there, but this doesn't prove that he definitely had a rage boost. He never had one before, and no one made any statement about Vegeta's power being greater than before, so I guess that Cell was just getting ready to take Vegeta's attacks.

[VegettoEX]

When you folks devolve the conversation down to these gigantic back-and-forth posts of quote/response/quote/response, no-one else is reading them and no-one else is getting anything out of it. You're just blabbing back and forth without really listening to one another, and you're doing so in an embarrassingly rude way.

Please knock it off.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

When you folks devolve the conversation down to these gigantic back-and-forth posts of quote/response/quote/response, no-one else is reading them and no-one else is getting anything out of it. You're just blabbing back and forth without really listening to one another, and you're doing so in an embarrassingly rude way.

Please knock it off.

So, how would you prefer my previous post, for example?
Like this?

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Why would I admit that I'm wrong when I don't even believe that I'm wrong? If I believed so, I would admit it, I have no problem to do so, and I've done it many times here.
No one ever says that Goku increased his power through his rage as well.
Unlike in Gohan's case, it is never stated that Goku gets stronger when he gets angry. Not even in this specific case, unlike Gohan in this specific case.
I know, this is why I call this a theory, not a fact. This is what I believe that makes more sense. You can disagree with this, since it's not a fact.
Yes, you have. There is evidence that Boo is stronger than Taopaipai, since we know that Goku is stronger than Taopaipai, and we know that Boo is stronger than base Goku. So, Boo is stronger than Taopaipai.
You may have a point there, but this doesn't prove that he definitely had a rage boost. He never had one before, and no one made any statement about Vegeta's power being greater than before, so I guess that Cell was just getting ready to take Vegeta's attacks.
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Or like this?

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Why would I admit that I'm wrong when I don't even believe that I'm wrong? If I believed so, I would admit it, I have no problem to do so, and I've done it many times here. No one ever says that Goku increased his power through his rage as well. Unlike in Gohan's case, it is never stated that Goku gets stronger when he gets angry. Not even in this specific case, unlike Gohan in this specific case. I know, this is why I call this a theory, not a fact. This is what I believe that makes more sense. You can disagree with this, since it's not a fact. Yes, you have. There is evidence that Boo is stronger than Taopaipai, since we know that Goku is stronger than Taopaipai, and we know that Boo is stronger than base Goku. So, Boo is stronger than Taopaipai. You may have a point there, but this doesn't prove that he definitely had a rage boost. He never had one before, and no one made any statement about Vegeta's power being greater than before, so I guess that Cell was just getting ready to take Vegeta's attacks.
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I think that it's more readable like it originally was.