Toriyama Is Ruining DragonBall?!

[Mewzard]

Because it was awfully written. I have no problem with it contradicting anything. It's Toriyama, he has every right to do what he wants. It was just read like high schooler fan fiction. I was genuinely embarrassed for him having read it. Shoehorning in Super Saiyan God? Terrible. Awful misrepresentations of characters and just generally poor story telling. It was plain bad even excluding comparisons/contradictions to the Bardock special.

Super Saiyan God got one mention, shortly before the planet was destroyed. The movie established that this happened in Saiyan history, so it makes sense that it would be mentioned at some point in the past.

As for "misrepresentations of characters", Toriyama never did a Bardock Special himself, so he's just representing this character in his own way for the first time. It's well within his right to do so.

Bardock caring for his son makes sense. For creatures that have limited children at a time, caring for them to some degree is instinctual, to ensure the survival of the species. If Saiyans didn't have that instinct, the race would have died off long ago due to high infant mortality rates (they don't seem to have kids often enough to afford very many loses).

Bardock can still be a murderer for hire and yet love his wife and child. There are degrees of evil, and even a bad guy can have a good home life and care for his family. Frankly, it's a nice bit of depth to add to Bardock that he's more than just some mindless killing machine.

It was also nice to see Saiyan culture for a bit and their architecture. Not really relevant perhaps, but I enjoy the little things when possible.

To Hell with the Bardock Special, Toriyama doesn't have to be limited by it. If he wants to make a Saiyan named Broli who gets one-shot killed by Raditz in some scene as a child, he's free to do so.

I don't get what all the hate for Dragon ball Minus is.

He turned Goku's origin into a copy of Superman's

But Goku's Saiyan origin was ALWAYS based on Superman's origin. An infant is sent from his home world just before it's destroyed, only to be raised by a human/humans and surpass normal human limits, ending up with said child now grown and fighting evil beings of some sort. Hell, even Superman had to fight evil members of his people with General Zod (while not a Prince, is a higher ranking member of the race).

It didn't change that much in the grand scheme of things (especially discounting the Bardock Special).

[Ajay]

As for "misrepresentations of characters", Toriyama never did a Bardock Special himself, so he's just representing this character in his own way for the first time. It's well within his right to do so.

Bardock caring for his son makes sense

No, it's not a case of him ignoring the special. That's entirely irrelevant as I mentioned in my initial post. He can do what he wants, it just has to not be absolutely fucking shit.

It's him totally going against his own pre-established characterisation of the Saiyan race. It absolutely does not make sense whatsoever. They're a battle loving race of brutes. Toriyama ignores that and gives us this soppy relationship between Gine and Bardock that is the antithesis to what has been described previously. They almost certainly fuck to survive and would absolutely not form the relationships depicted in Minus. Why do you think Vegeta struggles so much with Bulma initially? It goes against his very nature.

Bardock suddenly getting a 'bad feeling' and going as far as to ship his son off to Earth(?!?!) is terrible writing. Absolutely dreadful. You don't base an entire story about a 'feeling' someone happened to have. That's fan fiction garbage writing. It's pretty much a form of deus ex machina which is unquestionably considered an awful plot device by anyone with any sense. Toriyama has certainly used it before but it's embarrassing to be seen used in such a capacity.

There was zero need to include a reference to the Super Saiyan God. I still don't understand why he chose to include Jaco in the Dragon Ball universe either. It all stinks of shameless cross marketing with little regard for the original series.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Super Saiyan God got one mention, shortly before the planet was destroyed. The movie established that this happened in Saiyan history, so it makes sense that it would be mentioned at some point in the past.

That's actually the one issue with Minus that I can agree on. Super Saiyan God is apparently such a long forgotten thing that not even Vegeta, the Saiyan prince, knows about it. Our heroes in BoG have to get Shenron to tell them about it (still unsure on if that counts as a wish or not either...), so it seems a little odd that Super Saiyan God would be known to Freeza. At least, by name, anyway. If the dialogue had been something along the lines of 'Lord Freeza, we've heard tell of the Super Saiyan legend amongst the Saiyan troops, just as you feared. We think we caught someone talking about something else too...' - just that vaguest reference would have been much better and less eyebrow-raising, imo.

Everything else I agree with you on though.

[rereboy]

Yeesh. I am not at all getting the derisiveness towards Blade's opinions here. I'll say that I don't believe a creator should pander to the fans' ideas and wishes because, honestly, as a general rule, fans are stupid and shouldn't have control over the creative process (see the DBZ Blu-rays, for example). Also, there's just no way to predict what's going to sell or be liked, even if the fans say it's what they want. The only thing a creator can do is try to do the best job he can.

However, some of you seem to be going so far in the other direction it's a bit sickening. It's reminding me of the argument of, "We should be grateful to FUNimation for any chance they give us to throw their money at them." The fact of the matter is, no art exists in a vacuum. If I was an artist/storyteller/what have you, you'd better believe I'd be grateful to my fans for choosing to support my work. Because it would be impossible for me to do it without them sustaining me. Fans don't have to buy stuff. They don't have to be fans. There are tons of other things people can be fans of. Or they can be fans of nothing. Dragon Ball fulfills no basic need of any person who enjoys it. It's a want. For Toriyama, though, it was how he made his livelihood. Toriyama needed the fans more than the fans needed him, and that's true for almost any creator and fan relationship.

Does that mean he needs to kowtow to their every whim? Does that means he needs to give up his reclusive lifestyle because it's his duty to fans to be at their beck and call, as a thread a couple of months ago suggested? Of course not! But to say a creator owes his/her fans nothing is giving yourselves far too little credit. And I do agree with Blade that Toriyama really needs to either stop screwing things up with these ridiculous tidbits he keeps making up on the spot or actually taking the time and care to follow his own franchise and understand it. And I don't think he's doing anything maliciously. I think he is genuinely trying to give the fans what they want. But like I said above, that could be part of the problem.

Not at all. The issue is very simple. An author does something. The reader/fan either likes or he doesn't and he criticizes it or not. The author on the other hand is or should be appreciative of the support he gets and acknowledge the fans.

However, the author actually "owing" something...? The author being required to take responsibility for every opinion that a reader/fan can have after reading his work...? Er, no. He doesn't actually "owe" anything besides being appreciative of his fans which is entirely differently of taking his work in the direction he wants to take.

[Mewzard]

No, it's not a case of him ignoring the special. That's entirely irrelevant as I mentioned in my initial post. He can do what he wants, it just has to not be absolutely fucking shit.

It's him totally going against his own pre-established characterisation of the Saiyan race. It absolutely does not make sense whatsoever. They're a battle loving race of brutes. Toriyama ignores that and gives us this soppy relationship between Gine and Bardock that is the antithesis to what has been described previously. They almost certainly fuck to survive and would absolutely not form the relationships depicted in Minus. Why do you think Vegeta struggles so much with Bulma initially? It goes against his very nature.

Bardock suddenly getting a 'bad feeling' and going as far as to ship his son off to Earth(?!?!) is terrible writing. Absolutely dreadful. You don't base an entire story about a 'feeling' someone happened to have. That's fan fiction garbage writing. It's pretty much a form of deus ex machina which is unquestionably considered an awful plot device by anyone with any sense. Toriyama has certainly used it before but it's embarrassing to be seen used in such a capacity.

There was zero need to include a reference to the Super Saiyan God. I still don't understand why he chose to include Jaco in the Dragon Ball universe either. It all stinks of shameless cross marketing with little regard for the original series.

No race is absolutely one way at all times with no exceptions. That's not how anything works. There not being any Saiyans that either resisted their nature or Saiyans that were more open to unconventional views/behaviors would make no sense whatsoever.

Who's to say they still aren't? Bardock's clearly going around the universe murdering people. That hasn't changed. He just cares about his immediate family. Gine is more gentle, so she does a job that the Saiyan society needs to function, whereas Bardock still loves killing the crap out of people, so he goes to work for Freeza. Opposites attract as they say.

As for that "bad feeling", keep in mind Bardock knows his entire race is being moved to this one planet by their universe-conquering boss as he's also asking about Super Saiyans, a being that could potentially threaten Freeza...that's not a case of just "bad feelings", that's a case of Bardock having rational fear based on a fairly obviously hinted threat (rather than random ass psychic powers from a random alien...now THAT'S bad writing).

Maybe not, but given the time of the movie, and Beerus' interest in Freeza and the Saiyans, perhaps he felt like setting it up.

As for Jaco, it was clearly intended to tie into Dragon Ball. The chapters were literally numbered to count down to the start of Dragon Ball and Goku's arrival on Earth.

The addition of Jaco and the Galactic Patrol adds to the universe. There's more than just Goku, Freeza, Buu, and the Gods out there you know.

That's actually the one issue with Minus that I can agree on. Super Saiyan God is apparently such a long forgotten thing that not even Vegeta, the Saiyan prince, knows about it. Our heroes in BoG have to get Shenron to tell them about it (still unsure on if that counts as a wish or not either...), so it seems a little odd that Super Saiyan God would be known to Freeza. At least, by name, anyway. If the dialogue had been something along the lines of 'Lord Freeza, we've heard tell of the Super Saiyan legend amongst the Saiyan troops, just as you feared. We think we caught someone talking about something else too...' - just that vaguest reference would have been much better and less eyebrow-raising, imo.

Everything else I agree with you on though.

Fair enough, that's the one area I'm unsure of, as I haven't seen much of the movie minus some clips and details.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No, it's not a case of him ignoring the special.

Eh? He said that he hadn't seen the special since years before, and he ignored it completely during the whole DB-. He created his own version of Bardock, ignoring Toei's version.

It's him totally going against his own pre-established characterisation of the Saiyan race. It absolutely does not make sense whatsoever. They're a battle loving race of brutes. Toriyama ignores that and gives us this soppy relationship between Gine and Bardock that is the antithesis to what has been described previously. They almost certainly fuck to survive and would absolutely not form the relationships depicted in Minus. Why do you think Vegeta struggles so much with Bulma initially? It goes against his very nature.

What are you talking about? It was shown, and we were also told, that Gine was the freak of the Saiyans that made Bardock a little soft, and that normally Saiyans are a battle loving race of brutes that fuck to survive and don't form relationships. Bardock & Gine are an exception.

Bardock suddenly getting a 'bad feeling'

He saw that the whole situation was suspicious. He knows that Freeza is a dick, he learns that he knows about Super Saiyan, and suddenly he orders all of the Saiyans to go back to their planet. It is weird.

going as far as to ship his son off to Earth(?!?!)

Earth was full of weaklings, why wouldn't he send him there?

There was zero need to include a reference to the Super Saiyan God.

He probably wanted to indirectly tell us that BoG is part of his story.


You can bitch about it if you don't like it, but bitch about it for actually valid reasons. I don't like it because it makes Goku's origin even more similar to Superman's, and destroys the irony of Goku being sent to Earth to destroy it because he was weak, but ends up becoming its greatest protector.

[Herms]

You know, lately I've been re-reading the manga and watching the anime alongside it. Near as I can tell, everything's the same as it was before. I don't think anybody's ruined anything.

[hleV]

It was Toriyama and his editors who made Dragon Ball awesome. Hell, even if his editor suddenly gotten back, there's no telling if the current, senile version of Toriyama would live up to the task of making awesome new DB material.

In short, yes, Toriyama is ruining DB to the people who are into in-universe stuff.

[rereboy]

To stress my previous point, I will give an example: If I buy a series of paintings from a artist and I like that series very much, but later on the same artist does another series of paintings reinterpreting the same concept that was present in the previous paintings, and I happen to not like what he has done with it, I won't argue that he "owes" me something better as a fan and that he should take responsibility because that doesn't even make sense. So, why should I do it with a shonen manga writer...?

[Ajay]

You can bitch about it if you don't like it, but bitch about it for actually valid reasons.

My reasons are perfectly valid, thanks. You might not agree with them but don't you dare have the sheer audacity to call them invalid.

However, I'm not particularly interested in engaging someone who's resulting to omnislashing to 'break down' an argument.

Aimless chatter.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

My reasons are perfectly valid, thanks. You might not agree with them but don't you dare have the sheer audacity to call them invalid.

No, you were wrong about Toriyama contradicting the nature of the Saiyans, and I understand the issue about Bardock seeing something suspicious when something suspicious happens, I don't understand your issue with Goku being sent on Earth, and I don't understand your issue with something like a reference to SSGod, which is something so minor.

However, I'm not particularly interested in engaging someone who's resulting to omnislashing to 'break down' an argument.

This is awesome, because I hate doing it. I only do it because I want to be specific about what I'm talking about, but I find it very annoying because I get stubborn and don't want to back off.

Aimless chatter.

There was no need for that.

[Ajay]

But I'm not 'wrong'. You're presenting your own perceptions and interpretations as undeniable truth. You're taking viewpoints of mine that you've said you 'don't understand' and are somehow calling them invalid.

There's absolutely a need to refer to it as 'aimless chatter' because that's exactly what it is. If you're not prepared to debate in a manner that respects varying viewpoints then I'm not going to engage you at all. As I said, it's aimless. Cutting my posts down into little context-lacking chunks serves no purpose other than to cheapen the argument.

It's fine. We're clearly on two entirely opposite ends of opinions on Minus so I'll leave it be before it turns the thread into a load of bumper car posts.

[Li'l Lemmy]

I knew that we were approaching subject matter with some strong feelings attached, which is why I though it might make for an interesting discussion. It still can. Please, folks, let's not muddy up the thread with needlessly confrontational language. I'm certain that we can thoroughly explore the topic without disrespecting one another. o_o


~Da Lemmy

[Gyt Kaliba]

In short, yes, Toriyama is ruining DB to the people who are into in-universe stuff.

Not to everyone, he's not. I'm far more into in-universe stuff than I am out-of-universe stuff in general, and by and large, I've enjoyed all of his latest additions to the universe.

And ditto what Lemmy said. I hate when good topics with good discussion potential get pulled into the void because we can't just agree to having different opinions without tearing each other a new one for it.

[hleV]

Frankly, DB Minus is leagues above the BOG garbage, partially due to contradicting the manga to a way lesser extent, but also due to many other reasons (stupid way to introduce a new transformation, stupid new transformation's design, OOC moments, the mention of Tarble, etc.)

Not to everyone, he's not. I'm far more into in-universe stuff than I am out-of-universe stuff in general, and by and large, I've enjoyed all of his latest additions to the universe.

That's likely because you don't care enough about continuity issues or have a wrong idea about that in general.

[rereboy]

Or maybe he just disagrees with you.

[KentalSSJ6]

All I ask from Toriyama these days is some consistency. Hes a 50/50 with me on interviews. I like getting info such as Gero modeling 16 after his son but I really didn't care for info like Buu just existing instead of being made.

[hleV]

Or maybe he just disagrees with you.

Thanks for telling me he disagrees with me, I couldn't tell that myself.

[Gyt Kaliba]

No, I care about continuity issues. Just not to the point that I let it detract from me just enjoying the show for the show. I get the feeling we're just destined to disagree on this kinda thing though, since I'm going to guess some of the 'OOC moments' of BoG you refer to are Vegeta-related, and I'll take more of that Vegeta over the 'I AM THE BEST! *blasts everything* ...Why isn't this working! *sobs*' version of the past any day.

But again, different people like different things.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But I'm not 'wrong'. You're presenting your own perceptions and interpretations as undeniable truth. You're taking viewpoints of mine that you've said you 'don't understand' and are somehow calling them invalid.

You are wrong about Toriyama contradicting the Saiyan's nature, and you are wrong about Toriyama not ignoring Toei's Bardock, there is no question in that. It's not my interpretation, it's what Toriyama himself said:

Yes, Bardock certainly was born from the anime.
However, I don’t remember the particulars of how it went at that time.

Of course, Bardock is a Saiyan, too, so he is warlike, but compared to other Saiyans, who are cold-hearted and of simple thoughts, he also happens to possess calm judgment and a small measure of humanity.
Because of his actions of “saving his companions“, which is rare for a Saiyan, he is greatly adored among a portion of the low-class warriors.

Gine had a gentle personality and wasn’t cut out as a warrior, being repeatedly saved from danger by Bardock. At that time, a special emotion was born between them. Normally, Saiyans don’t have much of a notion of romance or marriage, and apart from the royal family of Vegeta, they aren’t particular about blood-relationships.
Being in among all that, I suppose you could say that the pair of Bardock and Gine were those rare Saiyans who were joined by a bond other than for reproductive purposes.
Incidentally, Gine, who was not cut out as a warrior, would go on to work at the meat distribution center on Planet Vegeta.
He didn't watch the TV Special, and he explained that Bardock & Gine don't reflect the Saiyans' nature.

The quartet of Bardock, Gine, Raditz, and Kakarrot make up Bardock’s family, such as it is, but all four of them were never together.
Also, I think that Bardock himself might have had siblings, but perhaps even Bardock himself doesn’t really know, and at any rate, he probably has no interest in it, either.
Saiyans don’t have much of a concept of “family”.

There's absolutely a need to refer to it as 'aimless chatter' because that's exactly what it is. If you're not prepared to debate in a manner that respects varying viewpoints then I'm not going to engage you at all.

I would respect your opinion, assuming that your opinion worth its respect. So far, most of your points sound more like complaining for the sake of complaining. This kind of complaining does not deserve any respect, unless if there is actually a reason for your complains, which is why I addressed to them, and this is why it wasn't "aimless". My aim was to understand your issues, which I cannot understand.

All I ask from Toriyama these days is some consistency.

If you pay attention, you will see that the continuity issues are not that many, and even those that are there can easily be explained without going to the realm of fan-fiction.