"Established Facts" that have changed: By Saga.

[White Oni]

Well this thread about whether or not AT has been ruining his story, with recent commentary and work has got me thinking...

Most people seem upset with so called "established facts" being contradicted/"forgotten".

A lot of people are attributing this this AT's long hiatus from the series, and his age.
But personally, I feel like this isn't anything new at all. That AT has been doing this from day 1.
Again, personally, I'm fine with that, and I'm fine with others being upset by it.
But I am interested in how new this activity is, and whether it's due to old age or to a specific style of writing.

So I'm hoping everyone can help me to form a list in this OP, of the things that were once "established" and later altered, completely changed, or simply discounted.

Total error count: 12

Total Contradiction count: 11

The following are facts established in the listed sagas, that are later contradicted, or altered to some degree.

Dragon Ball:
✪ Roshi says that "God himself" gave him the Nimbus Cloud... It's later revealed that it was just Karin who gave it to him. (Contradiction)
✪ Master Roshi says that he's immortal... Later, in the Daimao arc, he says that he is not. (Contradiction)
✪ During the 23rd TB, Goku said that he could kill Piccolo, and Kami with him of course, and then later revive Kami with the Dragon Balls (and used the Super Kamehameha to kill Piccolo)... A few chapters later, Goku says that if Kami dies, Shenlong dies as well. (contradiction)

Dragon Ball Z:

Saiyan Saga:
✪ Vegeta is his own boss... Vegeta is later shown to be Frieza's underling. (Contradiction)
✪ Vegeta's purpose for obtaining the Dragon balls is: To obtain immortality so he may enjoy battling forever... His purpose was later stated as: to avenge his race by obtaining immortality and killing frieza. (Slight alteration/revelation withheld for no reason.)
✪ Vegeta was named after the saiyan planet because he was such a gifted warrior... It's later revealed that his royalty/his father(anime) is the reason for his name, and that he was named "Vegeta" at birth, not after being recognized as a skilled warrior. (Contradiction)
✪ Vegeta believes he's the strongest in the universe... It is later shown that he's surprised that he can defeat some of frieza's low henchmen, and was aware of frieza's vast superiority the whole time. (Contradiction)
✪ Planet Vegeta was destroyed by a meteor... It is later revealed that frieza destroyed planet Vegeta. (Contradiction)

✪ King Kai was stated as being the "god above all other gods"... The Kaioshin in the Buu saga are far above the kaio. (contradiction)

Namek Saga:
✪ Only 1 super saiyan appears per millennium... There's a lot more than 1... (Contradiction)

Android Saga:
✪ Becoming a super saiyan is something achieved only through intense training and emotional stimulation... In the Buu Saga,it's revealed that nearly anyone can become an SSj, with minimal training and emotional stimulation, so long as that person has good saiyan genes. A fact that still stands as a current logical inconsistency, seeing as how Future trunks and Gohan attained their ssj status (Contradiction)
✪ Future Trunks says that 19 & 20 were the androids that destroyed his future... He later denies this and says it was 17 & 18. (contradiction)

[Herms]

Well, in the Saiyan arc, Vegeta is his own boss and heads off to Earth without a second thought. He wants to use the dragon balls to become immortal so that he can enjoy battle forever. He was named "Vegeta" after the Saiyans' planet because he was such a gifted warrior, and he considers himself the strongest in the universe. Oh, and Planet Vegeta was destroyed by a meteor.

In the Namek arc, Vegeta is/was Freeza's underling, and him heading off to Earth against Freeza's orders was a semi-rebellious act. He wants to use the dragon balls to become immortal so that he can defeat Freeza and rule the universe. He was the prince of the Saiyans, and was named "Vegeta" after his father the king (OK, so this bit's somewhat anime-only). He's fully aware that Freeza is a zillion times stronger than him, and is even amazed that he's now strong enough to beat guys like Dodoria or Zarbon. Oh, and Planet Vegeta was destroyed by Freeza.

[White Oni]

Well, in the Saiyan arc, Vegeta is his own boss and heads off to Earth without a second thought. He wants to use the dragon balls to become immortal so that he can enjoy battle forever. He was named "Vegeta" after the Saiyans' planet because he was such a gifted warrior, and he considers himself the strongest in the universe. Oh, and Planet Vegeta was destroyed by a meteor.

In the Namek arc, Vegeta is/was Freeza's underling, and him heading off to Earth against Freeza's orders was a semi-rebellious act. He wants to use the dragon balls to become immortal so that he can defeat Freeza and rule the universe. He was the prince of the Saiyans, and was named "Vegeta" after his father the king (OK, so this bit's somewhat anime-only). He's fully aware that Freeza is a zillion times stronger than him, and is even amazed that he's now strong enough to beat guys like Dodoria or Zarbon. Oh, and Planet Vegeta was destroyed by Freeza.

Awesome, good stuff, thanks Herms.

Was Vegeta always referred to as a prince? Or was he originally just referred to as an "elite warrior"?

[ABED]

I don't believe we discover he's royalty until the Freeza arc.

Some consider the Vegeta thing a contradiction when it's not. Vegeta has already defied Freeza and of course he would arrogant claim that he's the best.

[UltimateHammerBro]

Well, what about the whole "Piccolo is a demon / Piccolo is a Namekian"?

[Dbzk1999]

Well, what about the whole "Piccolo is a demon / Piccolo is a Namekian"?

Well there are different definitions for demon
1.an evil spirit or devil, especially one thought to possess a person or act as a tormentor in hell.
2.a cruel, evil, or destructive person or thing.
Do I guess it could be a mixture of both I mean demon king piccolo and piccolo ( for a while ) were the evil spirit/half of the nameless namek and they were cruel evil AND destructive

[ABED]

Well, what about the whole "Piccolo is a demon / Piccolo is a Namekian"?

Is this just a fact that changed or something you think was an issue?

[Marco Polo]

In the Cell Saga, Gohan went beyond the normal Super Saiyan level due to his hidden power. In the Buu Saga, it turns out everyone can reach SSJ2, regardless of any "hidden power".

[Son-Kun!!]

In the Namek saga, Vegeta states there is only one super sayain every millennium, After Namek we see any sayain has the ability if they train hard enough.

[UltimateHammerBro]

Well, what about the whole "Piccolo is a demon / Piccolo is a Namekian"?

Is this just a fact that changed or something you think was an issue?

I have no problem with it, I said it because I think that it was a somewhat established fact (with all the "Demon King", "Demon Clan" stuff) that was later changed.

[White Oni]

Ok I added the super saiyan per 1000 years bit to the namek saga.

In regards to Kami/piccolo I add a bit to the Dragon Ball section and simply pointed out that it's up to interpretation, as to whether it's a contradiction/alteration/simple revelation"

[Son-Kun!!]

In the boo saga, up tell then you had to feel immense rage or have burning desire to become a super sayain, however trunks and gotten can become one from latent ability.

You can call this a contradiction or not, I just thought it was worth noting.

[ABED]

Is this thread just listing things?

[White Oni]

Is this thread just listing things?

Read the OP.

[White Oni]

In the boo saga, up tell then you had to feel immense rage or have burning desire to become a super sayain, however trunks and gotten can become one from latent ability.

You can call this a contradiction or not, I just thought it was worth noting.

Good point, I'll add it to the OP.

[Herms]

Well, what about the whole "Piccolo is a demon / Piccolo is a Namekian"?

Actually, that's no contradiction at all.

On a similar note:

☻ Kami's original self(Katas's son/nameless namekian) was of divine origin. Additionally, it was assumed that both kami and piccolo were distinctively divine beings, explaining their unearthly appearance... It's revealed that there's nothing divine about him, he was simply an alien, who became a divine being through some sort of spiritual exercise. (Contradiction/Alteration/revelation depending on interpretation)

I don't want to be argumentative, but that's not correct. When the character is introduced, Katatz Jr. explains that he was a "gifted martial artist" who became God of Earth after the prior God of Earth chose him as his successor. Before the old God would recognize him as his successor, he had to expel all the evil from his heart, and this evil became the demon Piccolo. Later, it turns out this "gifted martial artist" came from Planet Namek, not Earth as was originally assumed. He was never said to be of "divine origin" (rather, he only got the job later in life), and he and Piccolo were never assumed to be "distinctively divine beings, explaining their unearthly appearance". These ideas are not found anywhere in the actual story; they only come from mistranslations and changes in some of the English versions, plus fan misinterpretation.

Anyway...as far as gods go, Kaio is introduced as the god who "stands above all other gods in the universe", but obviously that doesn't last.

[omegalucas]

Kame Sen'nin getting Kinto'un "from God himself" when it was actually Karin who gave it to him.

[White Oni]

Well, what about the whole "Piccolo is a demon / Piccolo is a Namekian"?

Actually, that's no contradiction at all.

On a similar note:

☻ Kami's original self(Katas's son/nameless namekian) was of divine origin. Additionally, it was assumed that both kami and piccolo were distinctively divine beings, explaining their unearthly appearance... It's revealed that there's nothing divine about him, he was simply an alien, who became a divine being through some sort of spiritual exercise. (Contradiction/Alteration/revelation depending on interpretation)

I don't want to be argumentative, but that's not correct. When the character is introduced, Katatz Jr. explains that he was a "gifted martial artist" who became God of Earth after the prior God of Earth chose him as his successor. Before the old God would recognize him as his successor, he had to expel all the evil from his heart, and this evil became the demon Piccolo. Later, it turns out this "gifted martial artist" came from Planet Namek, not Earth as was originally assumed. He was never said to be of "divine origin" (rather, he only got the job later in life), and he and Piccolo were never assumed to be "distinctively divine beings, explaining their unearthly appearance". These ideas are not found anywhere in the actual story; they only come from mistranslations and changes in some of the English versions, plus fan misinterpretation.

Anyway...as far as gods go, Kaio is introduced as the god who "stands above all other gods in the universe", but obviously that doesn't last.

Ok I removed it.

Thanks for the clarification, I'm only familiar with the dub work and I am not without my interpretative bias, so chances are I'll make a few mistakes.

[RandomGuy96]

Ok I added the super saiyan per 1000 years bit to the namek saga.

In regards to Kami/piccolo I add a bit to the Dragon Ball section and simply pointed out that it's up to interpretation, as to whether it's a contradiction/alteration/simple revelation"

I don't think the Super Saiyan thing is a contradiction. All Vegeta says is that the last Super Saiyan showed up one thousand years ago. Besides, even if he did say what you're saying he said, it's a legend, a story, not an established in-universe fact like all the stuff about Vegeta in the Saiyan arc.

The Super Saiyan conditions aren't a contradiction either. Goten and Trunks are simply new types that were recently introduced. It's less like Vegeta randomly being revealed to be weaker than a bunch of people when he said he was the strongest, and more like Freeza being the strongest in the universe at one time, but being surpassed by newly created powers.

Trunks said the androids who destroyed his future were 19 and 20. Later, he denies ever saying that, and the androids who destroyed his future are 17 and 18. Also, as Herms pointed out, Kaio was originally the head honcho of the god hierarchy. Come the end of the Freeza arc, he's simply "the North Kaio", and can't act in places outside of his jurisdiction. The Buu arc goes on to introduce many gods that outrank him.

[Kamiccolo9]

☻ Planet Vegeta was destroyed by a meteor... It is later revealed that Freeza destroyed planet Vegeta. (Contradiction)

Namek Saga:
☻ Only 1 super saiyan appears per millennium... There's a lot more than 1... (Contradiction)

Android Saga:
☻ Becoming a super saiyan is something achieved only through intense training and emotional stimulation... In the Buu Saga,it's revealed that nearly anyone can become an SSj, with minimal training and emotional stimulation, so long as that person has good saiyan genes. A fact that still stands as a current logical inconsistency, seeing as how Future trunks and Gohan attained their ssj status (Contradiction)

None of these are contradictions. It was a lie spread by Freeza to conceal his involvement from the surviving Saiyans.

I'm pretty sure it never says that there is only one Super Saiyan per millennium. It does, however, say that the last one appeared a millennium ago. And even if it does, it's a thousand year old legend, not a fact. No contradiction.

Goten and Trunks are different types of SSJ than the rest of their families.