Toriyama Is Ruining DragonBall?!

[ABED]

Cynical; dark.

Obviously, it's not extreme dead-baby humor. But, come on, look at someone like Yamcha and all the awful things Toriyama does to him. Or anything involving Mr. Satan.

What the...? Toriyama humor is basic and effective, simplistic humor, almost childish, barely more complex than poop on a stick when its not actually poop on a stick.

How is that cynical and dark...? You actually believe that Toriyama has an agenda of making Yamcha suffer for example? The worst thing he did to Yamcha was make Bulma get together with Vegeta and that was solely so that there could be another cool Super Saiyan. All the other stuff, namely wounds and such in battles, happened to every other human fighter.

I'm in agreement, I don't see the cynicism. So what if Yamcha's gets beat up, how is that a cynical joke?

And what humor involving Mr. Satan is dark and cynical?

[B]

You actually believe that Toriyama has an agenda of making Yamcha suffer for example?

You actually believe this is what I said, but alright.

[rereboy]

You actually believe that Toriyama has an agenda of making Yamcha suffer for example?

You actually believe this is what I said, but alright.

"Cynical; dark. Obviously, it's not extreme dead-baby humor. But, come on, look at someone like Yamcha and all the awful things Toriyama does to him."

So, in other words, Toriyama does awful things to Yamcha because he has a cynical and dark humor. Or, in other words, he makes Yamcha suffer on purpose because he has a cynical and dark humor. Or, yet in other words, since he does it on purpose, its part of his agenda to make Yamcha suffer, because of his cynical and dark humor.

Yeah, that's totally not what you said. I mean, completely different, obviously...

[JulieYBM]

Take the compromised situations Blooma is put in, the use of pornographic imagery, the burning of children, and the breaking of the necks of children into account and I don't see how Toriyama isn't a pretty poisonous guy. It's his sense of humor, bleak and lacking in wholesomeness as he openly admits. It's the small little touches like this that really set Dragon Ball so far from its successors.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I don't recall any actually 'pornographic' moments in any of Dragon Ball...there is some risque humor, yes, but nothing anywhere near pornographic.

And where was a kid burned?

[Herms]

I assume he really meant "sexual imagery".

[ABED]

You seem to be lumping in Toriyama's humor with his more serious moments. Yes Freeza having kids killed was dark but it was used to give Freeza that piece of shit factor that a great bad guy needs. Toriyama didn't write it for kicks or because he's cynical.

[rereboy]

Take the compromised situations Blooma is put in, the use of pornographic imagery, the burning of children, and the breaking of the necks of children into account and I don't see how Toriyama isn't a pretty poisonous guy. It's his sense of humor, bleak and lacking in wholesomeness as he openly admits. It's the small little touches like this that really set Dragon Ball so far from its successors.

Have you even seen many 80s anime..? To consider Dragon Ball's "violence" to be anything special in that department and in that era doesn't make sense to me at all.

Same thing with sexual content, especially since it was ALWAYS used for humorous purposes in Dragon Ball.

[JulieYBM]

I assume he really meant "sexual imagery".

I was actually thinking of the porn books themselves.

[Looneygamemaster]

If you don't mind me saying so, I fail to see how Dragon Ball's 6th grade level "tee-hee, naughty" jokes correspond to Toriyama being "poisonous." Nothing I've read in Dragon Ball has given me that impression. A guy with a juvenile sense of humor, maybe, but that's about it.

[Mewzard]

Take the compromised situations Blooma is put in, the use of pornographic imagery, the burning of children, and the breaking of the necks of children into account and I don't see how Toriyama isn't a pretty poisonous guy. It's his sense of humor, bleak and lacking in wholesomeness as he openly admits. It's the small little touches like this that really set Dragon Ball so far from its successors.

Dragon Ball started during Fist of the North Star's run, the manga where people were exploded with martial arts, blood and organs going everywhere, almost every single chapter. It was pretty much the top series in Jump until like 1987, its end year.

Dragon Ball was almost kid friendly when compared to what was going on in Jump at the time. And that's nothing to the 70s.

Go Nagai, the "God of Hentai" (as some affectionately, some not so affectionately call him) did manga in Jump in the 1970s.

In Monthly Shonen Jump, Kekko Kamen ran in the 70s, a series where a female lead wears nothing but a mask, and on multiple occasions defeated foes by leaping crotch first into their faces. He also did Harenchi Gakuen in the late 60s/early 70s, which, while not as bad, did run in Weekly Shonen Jump and was also a nudity haven (I think one of, if not the first for such youthful demographics).

But standards change all the time; Fist of the North Star and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure were moved to Seinen magazines, while modern Jump series became more tame.

But Dragon Ball is no where near the worst Japan has to offer, nor even Shonen.

Toriyama may be a dirty old man at times, but he's a tame one comparatively.

And no, I still don't think Toriyama's ruining Dragon Ball, I think he's just starting to remember the fun he had with it before it was drained from him.

[AgitoZ]

The artist of JulieYBM's avatar has done more pornographic works than Toriyama has ever done.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Really the only 'pornographic' thing Toriyama has ever done was his contribution to this one artbook alongside Katsura, and even that was tame, considering.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Really the only 'pornographic' thing Toriyama has ever done was his contribution to this one artbook alongside Katsura, and even that was tame, considering.

Eh, though it's also fairly tame considering the subject of the story, I'd probably slap Lady Red in that that category too.

[JulieYBM]

Folks, why are we continuing this line about pornography? I made it clear in a post prior to yours I was specifically speaking in reference to the magazines (as presented by Kuririn and later in Doctor Brief's capsule) which were indeed graphic on a few of the covers. That's it.

And yes, the artist of my avatar is indeed an actual pornographic artist. End of the world, I'm sure. This drawing is for his Weekly Shounen JUMP comic, though.

Take the compromised situations Blooma is put in, the use of pornographic imagery, the burning of children, and the breaking of the necks of children into account and I don't see how Toriyama isn't a pretty poisonous guy. It's his sense of humor, bleak and lacking in wholesomeness as he openly admits. It's the small little touches like this that really set Dragon Ball so far from its successors.

Dragon Ball started during Fist of the North Star's run, the manga where people were exploded with martial arts, blood and organs going everywhere, almost every single chapter. It was pretty much the top series in Jump until like 1987, its end year.

Dragon Ball was almost kid friendly when compared to what was going on in Jump at the time. And that's nothing to the 70s.

Go Nagai, the "God of Hentai" (as some affectionately, some not so affectionately call him) did manga in Jump in the 1970s.

In Monthly Shonen Jump, Kekko Kamen ran in the 70s, a series where a female lead wears nothing but a mask, and on multiple occasions defeated foes by leaping crotch first into their faces. He also did Harenchi Gakuen in the late 60s/early 70s, which, while not as bad, did run in Weekly Shonen Jump and was also a nudity haven (I think one of, if not the first for such youthful demographics).

But standards change all the time; Fist of the North Star and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure were moved to Seinen magazines, while modern Jump series became more tame.

But Dragon Ball is no where near the worst Japan has to offer, nor even Shonen.

Toriyama may be a dirty old man at times, but he's a tame one comparatively.

And no, I still don't think Toriyama's ruining Dragon Ball, I think he's just starting to remember the fun he had with it before it was drained from him.

I don't know why you're using his contemporaries as examples when I specifically referred to Toriyama's successors. Even then, his works are still, the point stands that Toriyama's works have a consistent lack of couth to them that reflect his personality.

[Mewzard]

I don't know why you're using his contemporaries as examples when I specifically referred to Toriyama's successors. Even then, his works are still, the point stands that Toriyama's works have a consistent lack of couth to them that reflect his personality.

But focusing on Toriyama in that example misses the point that many mangaka of the time did things that current ones either don't or can't.

Even ignoring that, some manga do get away with odd things, like Shokugeki no Soma, or Foodgasm the Manga, where eating good food randomly makes women appear naked with their minds blown by the good cooking.

Jump is rarely couth. It's not always extremely crude, but seldom refined or high art.

I just don't see the point of singling out Toriyama on this when many manga do rather violent or sexualized jokes.

[Hellspawn28]

I find Toryiama is doing fine. I'm welcome new info and some minor retcons for the series. In the manga, we never saw much of Goku being sent to Earth which is cool to me. Everyone goes off from the anime and thinks Goku was just a new born when he was sent to Earth. Toriyama's retcons are not as bad as other comic book artist out there like Todd Mcfarlane. He retcon Al Simmons main killer due to Rob Liefied leaving Image Comics at the time and he wanted to make sure the movie was staying faithful to the comics. Not to mention retcon things because he didn't like what other writers did in the main book and sometimes made things worst.

I don't get what all the hate for Dragon ball Minus is.

He turned Goku's origin into a copy of Superman's

I don't see how this a big issue now? No one in the past 10+ years has bitched about Goku being similar to Superman in the past. They both have a similar backstory and Goku has been view as the manga/anime version of Superman to a certain degree.

[ABED]

And Superman's origin is very similar to Moses. Everyone steals from someone.

[UltimateHammerBro]

I think there was a better place to post this, but I've been looking around and I don't seem to find it, so I think I'll just say it here.

Toriyama says in the last Q&A that Mr. Satan's late wife's name was MIGUEL, being a reference to the Archangel.
Wasn't there anyone around to tell him that Miguel is a real legitimate MALE ONLY name?

[Gyt Kaliba]

I was just wondering about that as well, though for another additional reason. I admit I'm not up on my bible references, but...was...there even an archangel named Miguel? *scratches head* I've heard of MICHAEL of course, but I don't remember a Miguel. And for that matter, though I'm kind of doubting it, were there any more feminine names that could have worked for the same joke of an angel and a devil (which I do like the parallel there).

But eh, this is a world where people are routinely named after vegetables and other foods, articles of clothing, and musical instruments - a female character with a more traditionally male name isn't so bizarre after all I guess.