Why did Toriyama bother writing Dragon Ball Z?

[ABED]

Art has can't be anything, if it is, then it ceases to be a concept. There has to be something that distinguishes it from everything else.

Abstract expressionism is incredibly visceral rather than analytical. To you, they may just be blobs on a canvas, while others might find real value to them. It's not for you to objectively decide.

There's always this argument of 'well, anyone can do that' but that's not what abstract art is about. It's about the ideas behind the work and the performance in the execution. The innate emotional reaction when confronted with such a piece.

That's not the idea behind it. It's all about misintegration and the destruction of the concept "art". If it's random blobs, it's not about anything, it's not art. Me clacking the keyboards writing this sentence isn't music, it's just sound. Painting and storytelling aren't any different.

Actual art is meant to be visceral. You are supposed to look at something like the Statue of David or the School of Athens and have an emotional experience. The fact that someone finds value in something doesn't make it art.

[rereboy]

Art has can't be anything, if it is, then it ceases to be a concept. There has to be something that distinguishes it from everything else.

What? My point was that movies and tv shows, as an art form, are subjective and not subject to strict rules or limits because of it, like "having to have a non open ending".

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't contradict my point at all.

[ABED]

Regardless, I think most of us will agree that an Inception like ending doesn't tonally fit DB.

[rereboy]

Regardless, I think most of us will agree that an Inception like ending doesn't tonally fit DB.

That, I agree. Even if its an open ending, it would require a different tone.

[Flame Dragon]

Also, who in the world convinced you that Trunks is a Mary Sue?
I'm interested.
Because this person has no idea of what a Mary Sue even is.

To get my point across, i'm going to do a comparison with the unfortunately popular Resident Evil movies.
The Resident Evil movies are the best way to learn about a Mary Sue, the main character Alice, is the wife of the director Paul W. Anderson.

As such, these entire movies revolve around her.

If you watch these movies you will see that:
1) All the other characters (even if named as the game characters they have nothing to do with the games canon. Just look like them to get easy money from the games fanbase) never accomplish anything in these movies. If they are allowed to do something it will always end up with them fucking up, dying or being saved by Alice.
2) Alice is able to kill zombies and all other creatures very easily, even kill large numbers of them while being disarmed. Other
characters have trouble killing a couple of zombies while using guns.
3) She always gets naked or fanservice scenes so Paul W. Anderson can say "see? that's how cool my wife is."
4) She gets superpowers to explain her ability to karate kick zombie dogs with ease. Then we she loses the powers, she can still destroy an entire army of zombies by herself .
5) Other characters never dare to oppose Alice ideas, and if they do, like Jill in the second movie, they will get humiliated or saved by Alice, just to show how wrong they were.
6) Attacks that kill the other characters istantly, only make her faint or fall on her knees.
7) The entire time she is shown as a badass, always making dramatic poses or slowmotion attacks to show how great she is.
8) She got a fucking CLONE ARMY modeled after herself.

Seriously, you think Trunks is bad? Try to watch these movies, they are trying so hard to hype Milla Jovovich it's fucking disgusting.

I suggest watching Phelous reviews on Thatguywiththeglasses to learn about how horrible the writing and fanservice of these crappy movies is.

Now let's compare Alice, the pure definition of Mary Sue, to Trunks, shall we?
Here's what Trunks accomplishes:

1) Kills Frieza and King Cold in a few minutes by showing his Super Saiyan powers. Which was only done to setup the new arc in a literal way. Toriyama way of saying " Freeza? Lol he will be a joke after you see the new villains".
2) Is completely powerless against the Androids of his time, and he watches his entire world get destroyed by them.
3) Watches Gohan, his mentor be killed and is completely unable to avenge him.
4) Goes back in time to save the world, only to make things worse because of his arrival changing things inside that timeline.
5) Gets punched by his father and humiliated.
6) Gets destroyed again by 17 and 18
7) Shows a big defect (which would never happen to a Mary Sue, they are perfect) with his fightning inexperience and doesn't think that the Grade III SSJ form is flawed.
8) Trains for a year in the ROSAT, only to be completely outclassed and humiliated by Perfect Cell.
9) GETS KILLED. By Cell! (Again, a pure blooded Mary Sue would never die)
10) Goes back to his time and then saves it from the Androids and Cell.

Hmmm. Gee, for being a Mary Sue, Trunks sure fails a lot!
The only brief moment, where he could be wrongly labeled as a Mary Sue, is when he kills Freeza. And that was just a plot device to advance the story into the next arc (and a pretty cool one at that!). So if anything, Trunks is a plot device to advance the story, but he never had the rights cards to be a Mary Sue.

I just debunked your entire idiotic theory about Mary Sue Trunks, of course i will probably not even be answered, but c'èst la vie.
Hopefully i actually reached this time. If not, i will take it as trolling.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

But, I can go ahead and agree that while I love the original series and hate how overlooked it is, I accept that without Z, it would not have reached the point of popularity that it is today.

I can tell how badly DB is overlooked based on a lot of the reasons why people claim to hate GT at face value. They hate Goku being a child but yet claim to love DB. Tsk-tsk. I don't buy it.

Eh? I hate GT. I love Dragonball Anime. What you mean you don't buy it? Kid Goku from DB is very different than GT Goku. Don't see why you can't buy it. I would understand if the person who hate GT uses other people as their source or common excuses that can be debunked if you watched the series.

I don't buy the argument when people say they hated GT because Goku turned into a kid but then say the thought Pilaf turning into a kid was funny. Why do people hate seeing Goku turned into a kid if they claimed to have liked Dragonball? What about GT kid Goku was that much of a problem to be a complaint? Most people didnt put two-two together based on what Toei was trying to set up with it. They just hated the fact it didnt look like Z Goku. You'd think kid Goku with Z-Goku's experience and intelligence would be the perfect combination for fans right? Nope. I mean it wasnt even a gimmick either. A lot came out of it as a necessity preluding into SSJ4 where he returns to his moe Z-like style. A lot of the reasons why people hate GT are contradictory to me.

Also, who in the world convinced you that Trunks is a Mary Sue?
I'm interested.
Because this person has no idea of what a Mary Sue even is.

^This
I tried to bring this up before. The claim really disturbs me when its thrown around without context or basis reflected on what the term actually means. Trunks to me is the farthest character from a Mary-sue alive, but to even suggest he is one in an absolute over someone like Goku or worse cases Gohan is just irrational. Mary-Sues today tend to just be any character a person doesn't like for an arbitrary preferencial reason rather than it be actually defined through the inbalanced in-universe treatment of said character. Its easy to argue how Trunks had his accomplishments earned, they also took the most struggle on his part as well. Nothing was handed to him, no obsticle or consiquence ignored him.

- He was hated by his father until the end of the saga His father mocked him and nearly killed baby Trunks.
- He had to fight against his father on multiple occasions to stop his father from ruining their plans.
- Cell kills him in another time line.
- He was terrified of the ROST & could barely handle it unlike the other characters; Gohan got used to it real fast.
- His miscaculations often got the Z-Senshi put in difficult positions but he manages to assist them out of.
- He overestimates himself and his lack of knowledge on his SSJ powers had cost him his fight with Cell. No other character had to make that mistake. In fact Gohan's new state was instantly controlled and instantly stronger than Trunks' despite Trunks having more experience than him.
- Trunks had to earn his SSJ form. Goku barely did. He just got it to secure the lengend.
- Trunks was killed by Cell out of no where.

I ask: Where was his special treatment? Where was his feats inconsistent?

[rereboy]

Why do people hate seeing Goku turned into a kid if they claimed to have liked Dragonball? What about GT kid Goku was that much of a problem to be a complaint?

Because the series had already evolved beyond that? Because Goku no longer had the mentality of a kid and seeing him as a kid besides his granddaughter is kind of weird? Because making him a kid is SO clearly a desperate attemp to try to rehash old ideas from the show, like its so obvious for example in that episode where they completely rehash the idea behind the first encounter with Oolong (guy dresses as girl, scary monster that actually isn't a threat)? Because he stayed as a kid THE WHOLE SHOW except when he got magic pants from his SSJ4 transformation?

[TheGmGoken]

I didn't like Goku being a kid in GT. Seemed force. He was just Goku in kid Goku body with drawbacks. He wasn't actually Kid Goku. That's not contradictory. They was two different characters at this point. Its not like he was Kid Goku mindset with adult Goku powers. He was the same as he was in Boo arc. And the whole show he was a kid. Got annoying honestly.

[DBZAOTA482]

I don't buy the argument when people say they hated GT because Goku turned into a kid but then say the thought Pilaf turning into a kid was funny. Why do people hate seeing Goku turned into a kid if they claimed to have liked Dragonball? What about GT kid Goku was that much of a problem to be a complaint? Most people didnt put two-two together based on what Toei was trying to set up with it. They just hated the fact it didnt look like Z Goku. You'd think kid Goku with Z-Goku's experience and intelligence would be the perfect combination for fans right? Nope. I mean it wasnt even a gimmick either. A lot came out of it as a necessity preluding into SSJ4 where he returns to his moe Z-like style. A lot of the reasons why people hate GT are contradictory to me.

Because, like rereboy said, it was an unnecessary throwback to the original Dragon Ball as it did nothing to progress his character development in any way. Plus he didn't even act like Goku. He was a cocky little shit who barely took his job seriously.

[ABED]

Goku no longer had the mentality of a kid

He's somewhat mature, but he's definitely very childlike. Seeing Goku in a body younger than his grandchild is weird, but not in bad way.

Because he stayed as a kid THE WHOLE SHOW except when he got magic pants from his SSJ4 transformation?

Is that really something to hate the entire show for? The Hulk's pants stretch, but people don't hate that.

Seemed force.

What about it seemed forced?

it did nothing to progress his character development in any way

His progression more or less stopped around the 23rd Budokai.

Why did it have to be necessary? Why can't it just be fun? You don't think it's fun, okay, but that's a more valid argument in my opinion.

[rereboy]

He's somewhat mature, but he's definitely very childlike. Seeing Goku in a body younger than his grandchild is weird, but not in bad way.

Then why turn him into a kid?

Its quite obviously just a forced attempt to "turn back the clock" metaphorically on the show and try to rehash the ideas of early Dragon Ball and mix it up with things from late Dragon Ball. Even just as an idea it already looks sketchy and forced, but the poor execution of the show really ruined it.

And you know what? Maybe it would have been fine if the execution was good, the attempt to rehash old ideas was less obvious, and Goku as a kid was just a temporary thing until they collected the black dragon balls or maybe until Goku turned into SSJ4 because SSJ4 would be so strong that it would permanently reverse the effects of the wish of the dragon, not just while in the form. But as it stands? Not good.

Is that really something to hate the entire show for? The Hulk's pants stretch, but people don't hate that.

There's plenty to hate the show besides Goku being turned into a kid and his magic pants. But the magic pants don't bother me one bit, I just mentioned them because I was trying to be humorous in the way I referred to SSJ4.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Because, like rereboy said, it was an unnecessary throwback to the original Dragon Ball as it did nothing to progress his character development in any way. Plus he didn't even act like Goku. He was a cocky little shit who barely took his job seriously.

Unecessary throw back? Like all the Freeza references 40 years after he dies?
It didnt progress his character development in any way? What did he need to develop after Z? Goku's personality was already set in the Buu saga.
Goku was a "cocky little shit" when he was confronted by Beerus if not the most cocky he ever was in the series.
Even that isnt as bad as the Bingo shit Vegeta was reduced to. If that was in GT would it still be funny? Thats the bias I hate in the fanbase.

Because the series had already evolved beyond that? Because Goku no longer had the mentality of a kid and seeing him as a kid besides his granddaughter is kind of weird? Because making him a kid is SO clearly a desperate attemp to try to rehash old ideas from the show, like its so obvious for example in that episode where they completely rehash the idea behind the first encounter with Oolong (guy dresses as girl, scary monster that actually isn't a threat)? Because he stayed as a kid THE WHOLE SHOW except when he got magic pants from his SSJ4 transformation?

Sure it felt like a step backwards but, they at least compensated by giving him his SSJ forms anyway. They could have just said his kid state was too weak to use them. They didnt. (They did for SSJ3 based on Z's own logic)

Because making him a kid is SO clearly a desperate attemp to try to rehash old ideas from the show, like its so obvious for example in that episode where they completely rehash the idea behind the first encounter with Oolong (guy dresses as girl, scary monster that actually isn't a threat)? Because he stayed as a kid THE WHOLE SHOW except when he got magic pants from his SSJ4 transformation?

- BOG recycled former concepts from the series themselves and left them nearly identical as they were originally presented. The-give-Goku-all-your-energy cliche is untouched. The childish-spoiled villain has been done before, the 'loved-one getting attacked giving a character a boost-up' is a tired one. If you thought GT was lazy, I beg to differ on BOG.

Magic-Pants? A Poblem? Since when is magic clothing materialization new?

[jjgp1112]

Eh? I hate GT. I love Dragonball Anime. What you mean you don't buy it? Kid Goku from DB is very different than GT Goku. Don't see why you can't buy it. I would understand if the person who hate GT uses other people as their source or common excuses that can be debunked if you watched the series.

I don't buy the argument when people say they hated GT because Goku turned into a kid but then say the thought Pilaf turning into a kid was funny.

That's not even close to a valid comparison. One is a gag for laughs, the other is a transparently stale retread of a part of the series that both the story and the characters had evolved from. It was just an excuse to rehash the first 13 episodes.

And you can't play the "gotcha!" hypocrisy argument either. That's circular logic. The reason people don't want to see Goku turn into a kid again because it's the series devolving and circling in on itself. Most fans want to see new things, not a rehash. It's one thing to go back to tones and themes, it's another thing to literally repeat old storylines.

[TheGmGoken]

I hated BoG so how does this imply to me?

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

That's not even close to a valid comparison. One is a gag for laughs, the other is a transparently stale retread of a part of the series that both the story and the characters had evolved from. It was just an excuse to rehash the first 13 episodes.

I don't see the difference, what was funny about it? I would argue Pilaf being old is funnier because of how late in the franchise they were referenced.

And you can't play the "gotcha!" hypocrisy argument either. That's circular logic. The reason people don't want to see Goku turn into a kid again because it's the series devolving and circling in on itself. Most fans want to see new things, not a rehash. It's one thing to go back to a certain tone, it's another thing to literally repeat old storylines.

"The Saiyan that killed Freeza" and not "The Saiyan that stopped Buu" speaks for itself.

- I dont see how Goku being a kid regressed him if all his major fights he had were as an adult. Him being a kid was only recognizable for his base form as it was meant to. In Z he never fought anyone in his base after he got SSJ, so the damage youre claiming it did, doesnt exist.

[rereboy]

Sure it felt like a step backwards but, they at least compensated by giving him his SSJ forms anyway. They could have just said his kid state was too weak to use them. They didnt. (They did for SSJ3 based on Z's own logic)

What does him being able to use SSJ forms have anything to do with him getting transformed into a kid being a good idea? Or its execution being good? Nothing. At all.

The chemistry in between him being a kid around his granddaughter is a subjective experience.

I didn't talk about chemistry, I talked about seeing him next to her as weird, because its just a weird way to advance with the show and very forced. Dragon Ball was all about going forward and its also one of the few shows where characters actually age and we can see the decades go by. But DBGT just takes that and says "NOPE, screw that". It would be funny if it was a temporary thing, but it was a permanent thing that lasted until the end of the show, so...

So what if GT recycled some ideas, they were light and expanded on off dragonball and early Z. BOG recycled former concepts from the series in general and left them nearly identical as they were originally presented. The-give-Goku-all-your-energy cliche is untouched. The childish-spoiled villain has been done before, the 'loved-one getting attacked giving a character a boost-up' is a tired one. If you thought GT was lazy, I beg to differ on BOG.

And you are talking about BOG because...? Did I mention BOG?

Magic-Pants? A Poblem? Since when is magic clothing materialization new?

Did I state that they were a problem for the show? It was just a humorous way to refer to SSj4, nothing else. I don't actually have a problem with his pants.

[DBZAOTA482]

Because, like rereboy said, it was an unnecessary throwback to the original Dragon Ball as it did nothing to progress his character development in any way. Plus he didn't even act like Goku. He was a cocky little shit who barely took his job seriously.

Unecessary throw back? Like all the Freeza references 40 years after he dies?
It didnt progress his character development in any way? What did he need to develop after Z? Goku's personality was already set in the Buu saga.

Which is why people thought GT would be more interesting if it gave the spotlight to a successor, like Oob or Pan.

BTW I never said that I liked Goku during the Beerus fight.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

What does him being able to use SSJ forms have anything to do with him getting transformed into a kid being a good idea? Or its execution being good? Nothing. At all.

I didnt say him having them made it a good idea, I was saying it could have been worse. If he didnt have any access to them whatsoever, then it would have been a bad regression, which wasnt the case, so him being a kid didnt make any difference.

I didn't talk about chemistry, I talked about seeing him next to her as weird, because its just a weird way to advance with the show and very forced. Dragon Ball was all about going forward and its also one of the few shows where characters actually age and we can see the decades go by. But DBGT just takes that and says "NOPE, screw that". It would be funny if it was a temporary thing, but it was a permanent thing that lasted until the end of the show, so...

Thats a ridiculous argument. No way does something like that affect the quality of the show. Even standing its still disproven with BOG as much as it irks me. Age doesnt matter if Toriyama doesn't keep track of them. However, even in GT Goku was the only character to get younger. All the other characters were still rightfully old. I dont see your point.

And you are talking about BOG because...? Did I mention BOG?

No, but its a worthy comparison, it doesnt make sense to hate GT for things canon material still does itself.

Did I state that they were a problem for the show? It was just a humorous way to refer to SSj4, nothing else. I don't actually have a problem with his pants.

You brought it up implying it as a problem among your complaints.

Which is why people thought GT would be more interesting if it gave the spotlight to a successor, like Oob or Pan.

Sure but then how would Goku not developing be a complaint then?

BTW I never said that I liked Goku during the Beerus fight.

Its just an example that contradicts the complaint. If you hate both instances as I do then fine.

[rereboy]

I didnt say him having them made it a good idea, I was saying it could have been worse. If he didnt have any access to them whatsoever, then it would have been a bad regression, which wasnt the case, so him being a kid didnt make any difference.

Arguing that something could be worse is not a solid argument for that same something being good.

Thats a ridiculous argument. No way does something like that affect the quality of the show. Even standing its still disproven with BOG as much as it irks me. Age doesnt matter if Toriyama doesn't keep track of them. However, even in GT Goku was the only character to get younger. All the other characters were still rightfully old. I dont see your point.

Yes, it does affect it because, like I said before, its quite clearly a forced and sketchy way to attempt to "turn back the clock" metaphorically on the show and try to rehash the ideas of early Dragon Ball and mix it up with things from late Dragon Ball. Even just as an idea it already looks sketchy and forced, but the poor execution of the show really ruined it.

Like I said before, maybe it would have been fine if the execution was good, the attempt to rehash old ideas was less obvious, and Goku as a kid was just a temporary thing until they collected the black dragon balls or maybe until Goku turned into SSJ4 because SSJ4 would be so strong that it would permanently reverse the effects of the wish of the dragon, not just while in the form. But as it stands? Not good.

No, but its a worthy comparison, it doesnt make sense to hate GT for things canon material still does itself.

What? First, you have no idea what my opinion on BOG even is. Second, BOG rehashed themes, it didn't try to force the entire show to relive its early episodes.

You brought it up implying it as a problem among your complaints.

No, I didn't. I said, and I quote: " Because he stayed as a kid THE WHOLE SHOW except when he got magic pants from his SSJ4 transformation?"

As its very obvious from my quote, the problem I'm actually mentioning is him being a kid during the whole show. The magic pants is just a humorous alternative to "except when he transformed into his SSJ4 form".

[Cetra]

The only thing I don't like about people complaining about Dragon Ball GT is that:

Vegeta in GT does something which is not even bad or so far off - not to mention people constantly change anyway.

"Omg, Vegeta is so out of character. One of the reasons why GT sucks./GT logic."

Vegeta dances in Battle of Gods as he throws away his pride to help the others by singing.

"Omg, Vegeta singing. So out of character. XD Hilarious."