Why did Toriyama bother writing Dragon Ball Z?

[jjgp1112]

That's not even close to a valid comparison. One is a gag for laughs, the other is a transparently stale retread of a part of the series that both the story and the characters had evolved from. It was just an excuse to rehash the first 13 episodes.

I don't see the difference, what was funny about it? I would argue Pilaf being old is funnier because of how late in the franchise they were referenced.

Your subjective opinion of the humor has nothing to do with the subject. Just because you didn't think it was funny doesn't change the fact that it was a gag and not a plot point of any significance.

[SSJ3_Zack]

Why did Toriyama write the second half of DragonBall? Two words. Money & popularity. In all my years of being a fan of the franchise, I have seen very few people attack DragonBall Z. Even then it's mainly attacking the lack of depth of it's story. Which is a rather ridiculous argument in itself; considering the series started out as a Gag manga. Some attack the series due to there elitist point of view on Anime but even then that's rare. To many, DragonBall Z is the "gateway anime" so to speak and it's revered by many.

Whilst it's your opinion that the second half of the series is bad. It did provide the most iconic moments & characters of the whole series. It is also the most profitable part of the franchise. I personally think the Saiyan & Freeza arcs are very well written. Both arcs have a great story, premise, moments and characters. I enjoyed the Cell arc even if it has a few dull moments. Onto The Majin Boo arc. It does have it's issues but it also has some great material (Majin Vegeta springs to mind).

Not to be rude but this topic reminds me of this:

Spoiler:

Off topic for a moment but could someone clarify whether Akira Toriyama was inspired by Hokuto No Ken (Fist of the North Star) when he created the "Z" portion of the story? I've seen people say that for years but I have yet to find proof if it was true or not.

[Flame Dragon]

Looks like thatdbzguy has been banned again, since i can't access his user profile anymore.
Which, effectively, brings this thread to a closure.

Not that it had much point before, since he never answered any of our retorts and ignored us.
It's not healthy discussion if you ignore criticism, and just wait for someone to agree with you so you can continue to regurgitate the same points over and over again.

Edit: It seems like his user profile doesn't exist at all anymore, which is weird since other banned users profiles still can be viewed.

[DBZAOTA482]

Sure but then how would Goku not developing be a complaint then?

Because they would still likely have him acting like a jackass.

[Valerius Dover]

Looks like thatdbzguy has been banned again, since i can't access his user profile anymore.
Which, effectively, brings this thread to a closure.

Not that it had much point before, since he never answered any of our retorts and ignored us.
It's not healthy discussion if you ignore criticism, and just wait for someone to agree with you so you can continue to regurgitate the same points over and over again.

Edit: It seems like his user profile doesn't exist at all anymore, which is weird since other banned users profiles still can be viewed.

I was wondering how long it would take someone else to notice that.

EDIT: Also, again? How can someone (non-specific question, so not prying here) get banned more than once?

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

That's not even close to a valid comparison. One is a gag for laughs, the other is a transparently stale retread of a part of the series that both the story and the characters had evolved from. It was just an excuse to rehash the first 13 episodes.

I don't see the difference, what was funny about it? I would argue Pilaf being old is funnier because of how late in the franchise they were referenced.

Your subjective opinion of the humor has nothing to do with the subject. Just because you didn't think it was funny doesn't change the fact that it was a gag and not a plot point of any significance.

Your conclusion in GT's case being a "stale retread" is also equally subjective not a fact. Goku being a kid wasnt even necessarily the plot point either. The only thing that made collecting the black-star balls manditory was to stop the Earth from exploding. Regardless if GT's case was meant to be a gag or not I still don't see the difference. Someone became a child which in outcome had no relevance on the plot. (hinderences Goku had as a child were no different than his hinderences in Z as an adult)

Sure but then how would Goku not developing be a complaint then?

Because they would still likely have him acting like a jackass.

No. He would act that way regardless if the opponent he fights intriques him enough. GT didnt create the character trait in him, he was always like that.

[TheGmGoken]

Really? I seen mostly hate for Vegeta dancing. Actually only here I see praise.

[jjgp1112]

Your conclusion in GT's case being a "stale retread" is also equally subjective not a fact. Goku being a kid wasnt even necessarily the plot point either. The only thing that made collecting the black-star balls manditory was to stop the Earth from exploding. Regardless if GT's case was meant to be a gag or not I still don't see the difference. Someone became a child which in outcome had no relevance on the plot. (hinderences Goku had as a child were no different than his hinderences in Z as an adult)

These aren't similar cases, though. Goku and Empereor Pilaf serve completely different purposes to the story - Pilaf's a gag viallian who hadn't been seen since the King Piccolo saga, Goku's the main character of the show. I think it's pretty simple to see why fans are more opposed to the latter than the former.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Your conclusion in GT's case being a "stale retread" is also equally subjective not a fact. Goku being a kid wasnt even necessarily the plot point either. The only thing that made collecting the black-star balls manditory was to stop the Earth from exploding. Regardless if GT's case was meant to be a gag or not I still don't see the difference. Someone became a child which in outcome had no relevance on the plot. (hinderences Goku had as a child were no different than his hinderences in Z as an adult)

These aren't similar cases, though. Goku and Empereor Pilaf serve completely different purposes to the story - Pilaf's a gag viallian who hadn't been seen since the King Piccolo saga, Goku's the main character of the show. I think it's pretty simple to see why fans are more opposed to the latter than the former.

The disappointment for the concept is different from outright hatred of GT just because of that, when we know that it didnt do any real damage to the plot - beyond making pan look useful. To hate it is saying it in the belief that Goku was never an adult in GT or that him being a kid stopped him from progressing anything which it didn't. The complaint is empty.

[ParkerAL]

I enjoyed Goku getting turned into a kid again in GT. Pilaf accidentally wishing for it to happen was hilarious and totally made sense within the context of the situation. I also found it really endearing to see Goku shrug off the transformation as if it wasn't a huge deal. It shows how grounded in the moment he can be.

Returning to the talk about ambiguous endings from earlier, I definitely think they have their place, but only if the film or show calls for them. It all depends on how much is left open to interpretation, and the amount of closure given to other plot threads in the story. A good example of this can be seen in Blade Runner. The theatrical cut shoehorned in an in-your-face happy ending that went completely against the tone of uncertainty present throughout the rest of the film. Sometimes its best to leave audiences with an idea of what can happen next without spelling it out in bold letters. Thankfully the ambiguity was restored in Blade Runner's director's cut years later, which did away with the epilogue and heavy-handed narration of the version shown in theaters. The main conflict still plays out and concludes as before, but the director's cut doesn't assign a final fate to the two main characters. In a way, it feels more realistic and emotionally pleasing that way. Life doesn't often feature clear-cut endings that tie everything up neatly, and I appreciate it when a film can successfully capture this obvious truth.

[Flame Dragon]

Looks like thatdbzguy has been banned again, since i can't access his user profile anymore.
Which, effectively, brings this thread to a closure.

Not that it had much point before, since he never answered any of our retorts and ignored us.
It's not healthy discussion if you ignore criticism, and just wait for someone to agree with you so you can continue to regurgitate the same points over and over again.

Edit: It seems like his user profile doesn't exist at all anymore, which is weird since other banned users profiles still can be viewed.

I was wondering how long it would take someone else to notice that.

EDIT: Also, again? How can someone (non-specific question, so not prying here) get banned more than once?

He was temporarily banned before, that's why we didn't see his threads in a while. This thread was made after his ban lifted, and now it seems like he's been permanently banned.
I suggest moving the GT Goku discussion elsewhere.

[Black_Anime_Fan]

He was temporarily banned before, that's why we didn't see his threads in a while. This thread was made after his ban lifted, and now it seems like he's been permanently banned.

Wow, what a waste lol

[Hellspawn28]

If he's banned for good then I can remove him off my ignore list. I had that guy on my list for months and I can only see his post when people quote him. I guess this thread will be lock soon anyways. I think the Saiyan saga was fine anyways. It did felt kinda dark with Goku coming back to Earth and finding out that it's too late that all of his friends are dead. Sure they were going to be wish back, but we didn't know that for sure yet at the time. It was also the first time where Goku died in battle.

[Kendamu]

Really? I seen mostly hate for Vegeta dancing. Actually only here I see praise.

It was only very recently that I've seen anything but praise. None of the fans at the Red Carpet event seemed to have a problem with it either. I think that, overall, it's just a loud minority that's just catching wind of this that are complaining.

[trick007z]

Not for nothing, but it's quite apparent that GT was attempting to emulate the success of the original story arc of Dragonball. Kid Goku hunting Dragonballs with Bulma's son, and a third character.

Which is funny because DBZ did it much better with Gohan, Bulma, and Kuririn on Namek with Vegeta playing the Yamcha role, emperor Pilaf being the tyrant Freeza and the Great Ape that showed up at the nick of time to save the day was a Super Saiyan. But it was done so well that most people never noticed the symmetry of that because it offered something new and innovative and progress the story along naturally. Likewise it honored the original story, rather than ripping it off.

Goku turning into a kid again, forced. A new set of dragonballs that we never knew about, forced. Only three people being able to go off in the universe to find the balls, forced. The balls blowing up Earth, forced.

[DBZAOTA482]

Not for nothing, but it's quite apparent that GT was attempting to emulate the success of the original story arc of Dragonball. Kid Goku hunting Dragonballs with Bulma's son, and a third character.

Which is funny because DBZ did it much better with Gohan, Bulma, and Kuririn on Namek with Vegeta playing the Yamcha role, emperor Pilaf being the tyrant Freeza and the Great Ape that showed up at the nick of time to save the day was a Super Saiyan. But it was done so well that most people never noticed the symmetry of that because it offered something new and innovative and progress the story along naturally. Likewise it honored the original story, rather than ripping it off.

Goku turning into a kid again, forced. A new set of dragonballs that we never knew about, forced. Only three people being able to go off in the universe to find the balls, forced. The balls blowing up Earth, forced.

Not to mention Pan was a lot like how Bulma was in the first arc only useless.... and stupid, and GT Trunks was just there as that guy who serves as a doormat to Goku and Pan's antics. Lame. Even his younger self was cooler.

[Adamant]

Off topic for a moment but could someone clarify whether Akira Toriyama was inspired by Hokuto No Ken (Fist of the North Star) when he created the "Z" portion of the story? I've seen people say that for years but I have yet to find proof if it was true or not.

Toriyama has said he rarely read manga or watched anime, and got most of his inspiration from movies. His editors were definitely familiar with FotNS and how popular it was, but Dragonball really isn't the same kind of series at all, so I doubt there was any conscious inspiration from anyone.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Really? I seen mostly hate for Vegeta dancing. Actually only here I see praise.

It was only very recently that I've seen anything but praise. None of the fans at the Red Carpet event seemed to have a problem with it either. I think that, overall, it's just a loud minority that's just catching wind of this that are complaining.

They're probably just showing respect. A lot of people online found it too out of character for Vegeta to swallow after the humour's taste left their mouth. A lot of Vegeta fans miss the no-tolerence badass he was iconized for regardless of alliance.

[jjgp1112]

Really? I seen mostly hate for Vegeta dancing. Actually only here I see praise.

It was only very recently that I've seen anything but praise. None of the fans at the Red Carpet event seemed to have a problem with it either. I think that, overall, it's just a loud minority that's just catching wind of this that are complaining.

They're probably just showing respect. A lot of people online found it too out of character for Vegeta to swallow after the humour's taste left their mouth. A lot of Vegeta fans miss the no-tolerence badass he was iconized for regardless of alliance.

I don't understand why Vegeta's fanbase is so ridiculously protective of him that they want him to continue being the stubborn dickhead that allows his pride to cause situations to escalate to disastrous proportions. I mean, he even said it himself - he didn't want to dance. It was humiliating to him. He had to in order to protect his family and help keep the literal God who he has no hope of defeating from flying off the handle. If you feel embarrassed for Vegeta, then well...you're supposed to. It's not sports or real life, it's a story, and it doesn't exist to prop up every character to keep their fans happy.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

If Toriyama didn't like writing for the series so much, why did he keep writing all the way into the Z portion of the story?

Toriyama never wrote Dragon Ball Z.