Fusion needs to become obsolete.

[Cursed Lemon]

If you want to see Dragonball fights won on the premise of irony (see: Movie 11), then that is entirely your prerogative.

Concoct a legitimate and non-comedic scenario in which Videl saves the day that keeps with the show's theme of perseverance and willpower, and I will give you the biggest cookie in the universe.

[Kamiccolo9]

If you want to see Dragonball fights won on the premise of irony, then that is entirely your prerogative.

Concoct a legitimate and non-comedic scenario in which Videl saves the day that keeps with the show's theme of perseverance and willpower, and I will give you the biggest cookie in the universe.

I suggest you learn what the word "irony" means. It has nothing to do with what we're discussing.

Place a movie immediately after the fight with Buu. Videl's connection with Gohan could be capitalized on. A new villain could be a Baby-like parasite figure who can control other fighters. Seeing that Gohan is the strongest among them, he takes control of Gohan, who proceeds to defeat all of the other fighters by utilizing his knowledge of their weaknesses. Videl, demonstrating the willpower and perseverance (not to mention her never-say-die attitude) that she has already demonstrated during her fight with Spopovitch and her standing up to Buu, manages to reach through to Gohan, and break the villain's control, forcing him out of Gohan, leaving the parasite weakened.

Or something like that. Honestly, creativity should be something that we expect from the people making the stories, not try to discourage due to "not fitting the series."

[Cursed Lemon]

I suggest you learn what the word "irony" means. It has nothing to do with what we're discussing.

i·ro·ny1
ˈīrənē,ˈiərnē/
noun
noun: irony

the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.
"“Don't go overboard with the gratitude,” he rejoined with heavy irony"
synonyms: sarcasm, causticity, cynicism, mockery, satire, sardonicism
"that note of irony in her voice"
antonyms: sincerity
a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result.
plural noun: ironies
"the irony is that I thought he could help me"
synonyms: paradox, incongruity, incongruousness
"the irony of the situation"
antonyms: logic
a literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character's words or actions are clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character.
adjective: dramatic

Now that we got that pretentious and snobbish matter cleared up.

Place a movie immediately after the fight with Buu. Videl's connection with Gohan could be capitalized on. A new villain could be a Baby-like parasite figure who can control other fighters. Seeing that Gohan is the strongest among them, he takes control of Gohan, who proceeds to defeat all of the other fighters by utilizing his knowledge of their weaknesses. Videl, demonstrating the willpower and perseverance (not to mention her never-say-die attitude) that she has already demonstrated during her fight with Spopovitch and her standing up to Buu, manages to reach through to Gohan, and break the villain's control, forcing him out of Gohan, leaving the parasite weakened.

Remember that irony thing? As in, "an event that happens that is in direct contrast to what the audience expects"? That's why I referenced Movie 11 - Broly was defeated by water. That's ridiculous, and so is this premise. He wouldn't wake up for his father or his mentor that he loves almost literally to death, but is saved by the cleansing power of love, a love which remains a mystery throughout the series as Gohan and Videl are a terrible romance?

There's no using Videl in any substantial way here, because you know what? She doesn't have any substance. Almost none of the DBZ support cast does, in any way that's relevant to beating a foe (at least at the EoZ stage). Hell, she barely even has a personality.

And your premise is not about perseverance, willpower, and strength. It's about the power of personal bonds, which gets into a completely different aesthetic.

Or something like that. Honestly, creativity should be something that we expect from the people making the stories, not try to discourage due to "not fitting the series."

Yeah, I'm so glad somebody green-lighted the collaboration between Metallica and Lou Reed.

Experimentation is good. Blindly disregarding the most basic characteristics of a thing is not.

[Kamiccolo9]

Right. I think we're done here.

If a character doesn't have substance, then you give them substance. Characters shouldn't be static and unchanging from the moment they are introduced. And there are more ways to beating a foe than punching them in the face. I don't see how you fail to understand that, given that you've already admitted that this has happened in Dragonball already anyway.

You seem to be so resistant to change that you refuse to even consider doing anything slightly different. Which is odd, seeing as Dragonball has had several tonal shifts over the past 20 years, from gag manga to adventure manga to fighting manga to fighting adventure manga to sci-fi adventure manga to sci-fi fighting manga to sci-fi-mystery-horror manga to gag manga to gag fighting manga.

[Cursed Lemon]

The only serious aspect of DBZ (note that I keep saying DBZ) is the looming threat of physical torment and death, personal loss.

By your logic, the Garlic Jr. saga should've been one of the most interesting parts of the entire franchise. It certainly had a unique twist on the typical crash-and-bang attitude of Dragonball, did it not?

So why do 95% of DB fans hate that arc and skip it entirely?

[KentalSSJ6]

The only serious aspect of DBZ (note that I keep saying DBZ) is the looming threat of physical torment and death, personal loss.

By your logic, the Garlic Jr. saga should've been one of the most interesting parts of the entire franchise. It certainly had a unique twist on the typical crash-and-bang attitude of Dragonball, did it not?

So why do 95% of DB fans hate that arc and skip it entirely?

Because I hate filler and skip it in nearly every anime I watch/own?

[Kamiccolo9]

The only serious aspect of DBZ (note that I keep saying DBZ) is the looming threat of physical torment and death, personal loss.

By your logic, the Garlic Jr. saga should've been one of the most interesting parts of the entire franchise. It certainly had a unique twist on the typical crash-and-bang attitude of Dragonball, did it not?

So why do 95% of DB fans hate that arc and skip it entirely?

"DBZ" did not originally exist in the manga. It was a label the anime put on. There is no separation between Dragonball and Dragonball Z in the original work.

I suggest you do more research. Last I recall, we had a thread on that here not that long ago, and it was hardly "hated by 95% of the fans."

And even if it is, Movie 1 is one of the most popular movies, from what I've seen, and it features Garlic Jr. as the main villain.

[Cursed Lemon]

"DBZ" did not originally exist in the manga. It was a label the anime put on. There is no separation between Dragonball and Dragonball Z in the original work.

No. Crap.

I suggest you do more research. Last I recall, we had a thread on that here not that long ago, and it was hardly "hated by 95% of the fans."

Why don't we go get KaiserNeko's opinion on how well things would've fared if TeamFourStar decided to actually produce those episodes.

And even if it is, Movie 1 is one of the most popular movies, from what I've seen, and it features Garlic Jr. as the main villain.

Which, proportionally, contains a lot more fighting than the actual material in the series, involves our main hero, AND contains an ironic death sequence.

[Kamiccolo9]

"DBZ" did not originally exist in the manga. It was a label the anime put on. There is no separation between Dragonball and Dragonball Z in the original work.

No. Crap.

I suggest you do more research. Last I recall, we had a thread on that here not that long ago, and it was hardly "hated by 95% of the fans."

Why don't we go get KaiserNeko's opinion on how well things would've fared if TeamFourStar decided to actually produce those episodes.

And even if it is, Movie 1 is one of the most popular movies, from what I've seen, and it features Garlic Jr. as the main villain.

Which, proportionally, contains a lot more fighting than the actual material in the series, involves our main hero, AND contains an ironic death sequence.

Then I don't see the point in you pointing out the distinction. It's all one entity.
Why should one fan's opinion matter any more than another fan's? I'm looking at
this threadhttp://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... or#p743666
and this thread http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... ow#p730554 in which quite a few people point out how underrated the arc is. But, by all means, if you want to, get KaiserNeko involved in this thread.

I don't seem to recall "perseverance and willpower" playing any sort of role in movie one. I also don't seem to recall the main villain being overpowered by anything. As I recall, Gohan gets mad and hits him into the Dead Zone.

And again, since you seem to be implying it, where have I ever said to cut out the fighting?

[Cursed Lemon]

Are you really going to deny the tonal shift from DB to DBZ, going from being more adventure-based to "defend the Earth", regardless of whether the manga was segregated as such?

Maybe not specifically perseverance and willpower, but strength? Gohan's power, while not enough to actually kill Garlic Jr. outright, was still what saved the day. You'd probably be accurate to assert that there is no moral overtone to the first movie, if anything (considering it's movie based on crappy, inconsequential filler), but I've never considered that movie to be that good either way.

And you're still not taking what I'm telling you in a useful context, you're just being contrary because you think I'm being pessimistic. DBZ, like any other media item, is based on a few concepts/tenets. Fighting is one of them. What, then, is the point of watching a DBZ movie or arc where fighting isn't what solves the problem? That's the underlying implication of the show; its themes are determination and personal conviction, fighting is simply the conduit by which those principles are delivered. If you start depicting fighting as being futile, guess what? You change the angle of the show. Because you don't deliver perseverance, strength, and willpower in the form of a loving hug that disgusts the bad guy so much he has to abandon his vicar. It becomes a different experience altogether.

The problem here is that you're focused on making use of characters who are not good at FIGHTING - at least not nearly as good as the main cast. Which means that they have to find other, non-fighting ways of solving the problem. You know what? DBZ is in a shit position as of its ending. I have ALWAYS thought that the best Dragonball has ever been was the saiyan saga. Old characters proved their mettle as Goku ascended to power we didn't even know existed to battle a terrible foe we couldn't have even imagined, all built up in a glorious way and even retaining some of the more martial arts-related aesthetic. But here at EoZ we don't have much of anything at all to work with as far as keeping things interesting, because of stuff like what OP said.

Here's what it comes down to.

I am fully ready to admit that Dragonball, at least in the universe we know it, has more or less run its course. The most interesting Dragonball related thing of the past...I don't know, 15 years, has been the DBZ multiverse fan stuff. Now THAT was a good idea.

[Kamiccolo9]

Are you really going to deny the tonal shift from DB to DBZ, going from being more adventure-based to "defend the Earth", regardless of whether the manga was segregated as such?

Maybe not specifically perseverance and willpower, but strength? Gohan's power, while not enough to actually kill Garlic Jr. outright, was still what saved the day. You'd probably be accurate to assert that there is no moral overtone to the first movie, if anything (considering it's movie based on crappy, inconsequential filler), but I've never considered that movie to be that good either way.

And you're still not taking what I'm telling you in a useful context, you're just being contrary because you think I'm being pessimistic. DBZ, like any other media item, is based on a few concepts/tenets. Fighting is one of them. What, then, is the point of watching a DBZ movie or arc where fighting isn't what solves the problem? That's the underlying implication of the show; its themes are determination and personal conviction, fighting is simply the conduit by which those principles are delivered. If you start depicting fighting as being futile, guess what? You change the angle of the show. Because you don't deliver perseverance, strength, and willpower in the form of a loving hug that disgusts the bad guy so much he has to abandon his vicar. It becomes a different experience altogether.

The problem here is that you're focused on making use of characters who are not good at FIGHTING - at least not nearly as good as the main cast. Which means that they have to find other, non-fighting ways of solving the problem. You know what? DBZ is in a shit position as of its ending. I have ALWAYS thought that the best Dragonball has ever been was the saiyan saga. Old characters proved their mettle as Goku ascended to power we didn't even know existed to battle a terrible foe we couldn't have even imagined, all built up in a glorious way and even retaining some of the more martial arts-related aesthetic. But here at EoZ we don't have much of anything at all to work with as far as keeping things interesting, because of stuff like what OP said.

Here's what it comes down to.

I am fully ready to admit that Dragonball, at least in the universe we know it, has more or less run its course. The most interesting Dragonball related thing of the past...I don't know, 15 years, has been the DBZ multiverse fan stuff. Now THAT was a good idea.

If you're willing to admit that it has run it's course, then what would be the problem with trying something new? I get that you didn't like Battle of Gods, but from what I've seen, the vast majority of people did, and I have seen literally no one who had a problem with its more unconventional ending.

Building up characters never to use them again is bad writing, I don't care what the genre or media is. On that note, anything that can use said abandoned characters in meaningful ways is making good use of those characters. I fail to see how that can be a bad thing. And I have never once said that the supporting characters should be the ones to ultimately solve the problem; only that they can use their talents to support the main cast, which is their job. What I have been saying all along is that the main cast (Goku, Vegeta, Gohan) have additional skills beyond fighting that have been told to us throughout the manga. Why not use them?

Dragonball has changed its "tenets" before, and I'm not even suggesting that. What I'm saying is that, in addition to fighting, let the characters use their other skills as well.

[Zephyr]

Is "allowing characters to make use of abilities and strategies other than overpowering strength to come out on top in a fight is a bad thing" legitimately being argued here? Why?

Let's look at the big bad of each story arc and how they were defeated:
- Hunt for the Dragon Balls arc: Oolong thwarted the wish. Oozaru Goku destroyed the castle and scared Pilaf and co. away. Puar disposed of monster Goku with her transformation abilities.
- 21st Tenkaichi Budokai arc: After a very close fight, Goku lost.
- Red Ribbon Army arc: Goku defeats every Red Ribbon member he faces through over powering them. The big bad himself is shot in the head by his own underling. The final boss of the Uranai Baba portion doesn't even lose to Goku.
- 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai arc: After a very close fight, Goku once again lost.
- Piccolo Daimao arc: After a very close fight, a well placed piercing of Daimao's chest wins the day.
- 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc: After a very close fight, a well timed bukujutsu enabled a well placed hit to ring Piccolo out.
- Saiyan arc: Jolly cooperation between 4 relatively grossly underpowered Earthlings wins the day.
- Namek arc: Goku overpowers Freeza. Freeza takes it a step further by idiotically amputating himself. Then Goku overpowers him again.
- Artificial Humans arc: Gohan overpowers Cell by believing in himself and unleashing all of his power.
- Buu arc: Everyone works together to create a ball of energy large enough to destroy Buu. Even M. Satan plays a crucial role in procuring the energy needed.

And since it's the next big Dragon Ball thing, Toriyama playing a humungous role in the plot, let's include:

- Battle of Gods: Goku loses the fight. The day is ultimately saved by everyone collectively winning Beerus over. Motherfucking friendship.

A grand total of two times where the day was saved by overpowering the opponent by being stronger than them. 3 if you want to exclude Uranai Baba from the Red Ribbon Army arc to help your case. The Z portion itself, if you for some reason want to treat it as its own isolated collective narrative, begins and ends with a story arc where the final boss is defeated by means other than overpowering the big bad. I can't say I see where the idea of a story in this franchise, let alone the Z section, needing the heroes to come out on top by sheer power comes from at all.

Also the series didn't instantly go full 180 in its tone once the Saiyan arc started. It had been a very gradual process of increasing tension, dire-ness, seriousness, and drama from the Red Ribbon Army arc up until the Cell arc, with the Buu arc subsequently toning it down.

[Kroni_Hunter]

I don't think anyone would object to minor characters being useful in plausible ways so long as their feats are consistent with their known limitations. Dragon ball/z/gt has always had characters like this. You have all pointed to countless examples, so what is the argument here? You want more? Do you want to do away completely with the idea of villains getting stronger? A little variety is fine but don't change the theme of the show, which is fighting and becoming the strongest.

And this really has nothing to do with fusion or my original post. Just thought I'd mention that.

[Kamiccolo9]

I don't think anyone would object to minor characters being useful in plausible ways so long as their feats are consistent with their known limitations. Dragon ball/z/gt has always had characters like this. You have all pointed to countless examples, so what is the argument here? You want more? Do you want to do away completely with the idea of villains getting stronger? A little variety is fine but don't change the theme of the show, which is fighting and becoming the strongest.

And this really has nothing to do with fusion or my original post. Just thought I'd mention that.

As I initially pointed out, occasionally having a villain that can't be defeated by pure strength alone would help to negate the problems mentioned in your first post. The strength (or lack of) fusion means little against an enemy where no amount of physical force would be adequate.

[Cursed Lemon]

If you're willing to admit that it has run it's course, then what would be the problem with trying something new? I get that you didn't like Battle of Gods, but from what I've seen, the vast majority of people did, and I have seen literally no one who had a problem with its more unconventional ending.

Building up characters never to use them again is bad writing, I don't care what the genre or media is. On that note, anything that can use said abandoned characters in meaningful ways is making good use of those characters. I fail to see how that can be a bad thing. And I have never once said that the supporting characters should be the ones to ultimately solve the problem; only that they can use their talents to support the main cast, which is their job. What I have been saying all along is that the main cast (Goku, Vegeta, Gohan) have additional skills beyond fighting that have been told to us throughout the manga. Why not use them?

Dragonball has changed its "tenets" before, and I'm not even suggesting that. What I'm saying is that, in addition to fighting, let the characters use their other skills as well.

Literally the only thing I have been trying to get across to you through this thread is that - IF your idea of Dragonball is actually distinguishable from Dragonball as we know it today, which I'm not so sure - the show would be a different experience from what it is now, and I don't think you're respecting the gravity of that consequence.

You don't just change one basic tenet of something and leave everything else how it is. That's like removing shields from Halo and not bothering to re-balance the weapons. Yeah, it's different, it would be mixing things around - and it would be awful, until you cleaned everything else up.

[Doctor.]

Fusion is a technique that brought variety to the Dragon Ball universe. It doesn't make them look like pricks, it gives them character development in some ways. It's good that it's still around to make characters like Goten and Trunks somewhat relevant.

[Kamiccolo9]

If you're willing to admit that it has run it's course, then what would be the problem with trying something new? I get that you didn't like Battle of Gods, but from what I've seen, the vast majority of people did, and I have seen literally no one who had a problem with its more unconventional ending.

Building up characters never to use them again is bad writing, I don't care what the genre or media is. On that note, anything that can use said abandoned characters in meaningful ways is making good use of those characters. I fail to see how that can be a bad thing. And I have never once said that the supporting characters should be the ones to ultimately solve the problem; only that they can use their talents to support the main cast, which is their job. What I have been saying all along is that the main cast (Goku, Vegeta, Gohan) have additional skills beyond fighting that have been told to us throughout the manga. Why not use them?

Dragonball has changed its "tenets" before, and I'm not even suggesting that. What I'm saying is that, in addition to fighting, let the characters use their other skills as well.

Literally the only thing I have been trying to get across to you through this thread is that - IF your idea of Dragonball is actually distinguishable from Dragonball as we know it today, which I'm not so sure - the show would be a different experience from what it is now, and I don't think you're respecting the gravity of that consequence.

You don't just change one basic tenet of something and leave everything else how it is. That's like removing shields from Halo and not bothering to re-balance the weapons. Yeah, it's different, it would be mixing things around - and it would be awful, until you cleaned everything else up.

And "different" does not mean "bad," otherwise the manga would never have made it past the first arc, and the Buu Arc would be a monumental waste of time. I find it laughable that you think that characters cannot be utilized for anything other than fighting without "changing the experience," or "invalidating the premise of the show." I would say that Toriyama would agree, seeing the tonal shift introduced in Battle of Gods, which I and many others find to be an enormous benefit to the franchise as a whole.

I'll be starting a new thread on this; it's already way off topic.

[Cursed Lemon]

Fusion is a technique that brought variety to the Dragon Ball universe. It doesn't make them look like pricks, it gives them character development in some ways. It's good that it's still around to make characters like Goten and Trunks somewhat relevant.

The simplest way of making this interesting is to actually invest in character development - for once.

For example, have Goten and Trunks slowly start losing their identities (what little they actually have) because they're fusing too much.

[Doctor.]

The simplest way of making this interesting is to actually invest in character development - for once.

For who? Goku's character development was complete by the Freeza arc. The tiny bits he got in the Cell arc, Buu arc and BoG were completely unnecessary since his character was already complete. Vegeta's character development was complete by the Buu arc. And the same for everyone else. The only ones who have few character development, or none at all, are very irrelevant and won't get a time to get some development.

For example, have Goten and Trunks slowly start losing their identities (what little they actually have) because they're fusing too much.

I don't think that's an issue as the Yo! OVA showed us.

[Cursed Lemon]

For who? Goku's character development was complete by the Freeza arc. The tiny bits he got in the Cell arc, Buu arc and BoG were completely unnecessary since his character was already complete. Vegeta's character development was complete by the Buu arc. And the same for everyone else. The only ones who have few character development, or none at all, are very irrelevant and won't get a time to get some development.

I don't think that's an issue as the Yo! OVA showed us.

I think you can make any character interesting if you simply choose to introduce conflict. Dragonball has definitely typically NOT been about character development, and so - kind of like what I was trying to say to Kamiccolo - introducing stressors onto the characters takes DB to a deeper and more psychological place. It would be very interesting, IMO, to explore some of the faults of the characters and have that translate to battle performance; this would take the pressure off of always making the show about stronger and stronger villains, and very easily get the rest of the cast involved. We could also get into the deeper mechanics of how certain things work, like fusion or SSJ. There's no reason we can't add onto the established way these concepts operate.