Are Tenkaichi fans ruining the franchise's progress?

[ZeroAnnihilated]

However like I said both games seem to have equal level of depth if you ask me..Underlortico's Ifinite World show https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cKJJH4 ... 6XS48dUgjg looks just like ZeroAnnihilated's Tenkaichi extravaganza https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9IcUVg ... Qi813ep8pg … just a bunch of different characters pretty much doing the same thing.

hehe, it was nice watching that again. Thanks

No people will use the same arguments if they still remain unaddressed since the moment they were brought to comparison.

Fair enough.

People who hate Tenkaichi hate it because to them,they'll say all the characters fight the same to them, or that all characters are generic and have no unique qualities to them, or all the characters under a certain transformation tier are useless, etc.

Can't have useless characters if they are all the same.

These complaints havent changed and somewhat remained carried over since through Spike's games. Sure characters dont play identically to the frame, but the engine is just so bare bones that all the rehashed games themselves feel the same because nothing at all has improved since BT3 if not have gotten worse, that even some BT3 fans say. Arguments against it wont change if it doesnt change. Though my opinion of BT3 and RB arent the same.

I have no opinions regarding games taking place after Tenkaichi 3. Well, except Xenoverse... I do hold interest in it, though I don't think I'll play for serious competition anymore. Getting too old.

Leaps and bounds where exactly? This is 2014. The progression between BT1 and BT2 was greatly noteworthy on Spike's part but thats where it ends and both games are irrelevant, not since have they been able to do that, if not pathetically trying to recapture BT3's gameplay piece by piece on what they took out on RB. I dont care, I dont have the rest of my youth to wait for Spike's babysteps to finally turn into solid walking forward. Dimps learned to walk as soon as they stopped crawlling. B1 - to IW is an improvement, which has been on the same important areas needed. (IW was just slapped together but even still its still better than B3). Spike doesnt improve anything besides the character models, some attack animations and the camera angles to victory poses. None of which are that important to be a priority. Their gameplay is always going to be the exact same basic format. Dimps at least tweaks things to smooth out the experiences.

I think you misunderstood me. When I speak of leaps and bounds, I am solely considering the evolution of combat understanding within Tenkaichi 2 game-play. Yes, of course there was a huge improvement from BT1 to BT2, but this is still largely based on face value, exemplified with the fan's desire for top level story modes and soundtracks. I don't care about the story mode and I turned the music option of T2 off years ago (not because I don't like it, but I use different music in my videos). The values I see in Tenkaichi 2 are deeper and mechanically/technically based AND reach far deeper than people ever realized. I still discover new techniques from time to time, based on mechanics beyond the consideration of traditional gamers BECAUSE of the evolved battle construct. I have personally formed theories to help people better understand the realm they are dealing with when regarding Tenkaichi 2 vs traditional fighters, theories that have helped me find new techniques as well.

In fact... @Goku_the_Krump_Dancer & BlazingFiddlesticks... if you recognize Tenkaichi 2 mechanics, check this one out, lol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_sYwI-hjSU
I uploaded this gem back in April but never put it on public. I was explaining it to a good friend (and fellow top T2 player) and eventually uploaded the example. If/when I get around to remaking the tutorials, I'll be sure to include this one.

Any measure of improvement beyond the recognized Tenkaichi series is beyond my acknowledgement. They can put "Tenkaichi" in the title if they want, but everyone knows that the Tenkaichi trilogy was one of a kind. You can preach that the creators are catering to Tenkaichi fans, and again, I can't speak for all Tenkaichi fans... but I know what I would want in a new Tenkaichi game, and as I said before, I don't feel that I've been listened to. As I said before, it really seems that the Budokai community is just looking to blame the Tenkaichi community for getting in the way of further Budokai experiences. To be fully honest, I read arguments like these and... and I... well, this should show you how I feel about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucrjFirXW_s

Yeah, I went there. Big fan here.

Their animations are still robotic if not bobbly in RB, and character mouths still look unnatural. Details like that shouldnt have to be demanded. Dimps games actually give models some life, their facial expressions even change emotions that resemble the anime at times. Never does Spike do that, and they bragged so much about the emotion feature in RB2 and I didnt see a thing they were boasting about.

Yawn. At this point, I don't know if you are getting off topic or not. What exactly are you looking to compare? Game-play quality/depth or how pretty the characters are?

Why the hell would they advertise Day and Night as a feature? It doesnt add anything the gameplay, it should just be there (though I dont care for it at all). As for gameplay, there isnt enough options to do anything outside pursuits, rushes, and 5-hit scripted strings. BT3 at least offered more than that minimum.

What if I told you that in Tenkaichi 2 you can take the combo in any direction you wanted to at any given time? Yes, you are aware of the 5-hit scripted strings, but what if I took the script and tore it up? What if I said that pursuits can be manipulated for position manipulation rather than continued offensive means? The value of a Rush Attack holds strict relation to the situation at hand, but knowing how dangerous they can be in the right hands... I don't feel that any defense is required. Rush attacks are awesome. =)

As I said, to fully explain the depth of Tenkaichi 2's battle construct, I'll need a lot more time and room. But be patient, I worked on it a bit tonight as well. On page 24 and I've yet to get past the basics.

Tenkaichi fans do this as well, if not more often. They hate budokai because Of A. Or B. Budokai fans hate Tenkaichi because of A. B. C....etc. They tend to give abstract or arbitrary excuses rather than comparative reasoning.

I won't state who is responsible for starting arguments between Tenkaichi and Budokai players because I've definitely seen it from both sides. However, from what I have seen, arguments typically surround the question of whether Tenkaichi holds depth compared to Budokai. There's more attacks toward Tenkaichi than the other way around. However, this is merely what I took from what I've read. If you disagree... to each his own. That's not what I'm here for.

They aren't bad games, they're still better than RB to everyone, however BT bores me because of its gameplay. I find it too chaotic some times where too much emphasis is put on heavy smashes, long-range attacking, and a lot of pursuits. I'm no expert on either games, but maybe its just that I dont like all the space given in the 3D games because you always have to chase after people and a lot of cheap deaths occur on usual. As for potential for the games, I dont know. I dont see how BT's engine could really improve, its not impossible to work with, its just not as easy to spot the consistency of what works and what doesnt work in battles because it can be too unpredictable in a sense there is no focus in battles beyond keeping the enemy at a distance away from you by any means necessary, where as in BL and IW you have to wear your opponent down more akin to an actual fight which both sides have the chance to stop each other at anny time in a match. With BT3 the gap usually becomes noticable quickly between characters fighting depending on who lands more consecutive hits. BT always felt like a race to 0 for me rather than a fight where you have to read your opponent's frames.

This sounds to me like you've had some bad experiences with cowards and spammers before you were able to accel. Trust me, had I not discovered the hidden layer of depth within Tenkaichi 2, I would have left it behind with all of the other fighting games I've experienced. As far as BT's engine improving... I have no idea. I never thought of ways it could improve. I've simply been exploring the engine and finding aspects of the game that most people never did. As "free" as Tenkaichi can feel, when you make your first major discovery... it's like realizing that you've been living in a box and the lid just popped off. Maybe now you can understand my frustration when reading other Tenkaichi players argue when they are still stuck in their box. It is at least expected from Budokai players simply because ignorance is a part of their position. As far as how one approaches the fight itself... I also have a different outlook, which can be seen in any of my matches. Some people feel the need to fight full force, present the offense in a way that the opponent can't possibly defend. Though I may be off the mark, this would reflect your race to 0. This does not explain the depth of the game, it explains the depth of the fighter. I can completely accept the possibility that Tenkaichi just simply isn't for you. That doesn't mean you aren't a great console fighter, but it definitely doesn't mean Tenkaichi is lacking. I can't play the piano, but I don't think it's a stupid instrument that doesn't require skill. Also... for the most part, any combo/attack/etc can be stopped in Tenkaichi 2 if the player knows what they are doing. And to this degree, I'll answer your next post.

Not really, from how I see it in B3, by pressing []x5 would end the combo and you knock the opponent away, and lose your space between the short distance you have to continue the combo. Most combos cant be continued directly after you knock your opponent too far away; which is why it encourages close-quarter interaction. Most B3 players rarely ever use a Kamehameha because they dont need to. In BT the same thing happens somewhat at the end of a plain 5-hit, but its combo system is made for following up on that with the step-in button and lauchers, you can also just dash behind them and if the counter is still counting your combo continues. It lets you play "catch-up" if youre faster than the stunned opponent recovery or the counter's timer depending on which comes first.

So... you really believe that if a button masher or spammer were to face a Tenkaichi player that knows what they are doing, the button masher/spammer will still pull off his speculated attack of intention? I think you are severely underestimating how many options are available to the knowledgeable Tenkaichi player. Also, though it doesn't take much to keep a combo going in Tenkaichi 2, any button masher is not going to be able to keep up a decent combo, even when regarding the button commands you mentioned above. If we consider both scenarios for each game, if two noobs are battling, then the same outcome would be reached. Say a Budokai 3 player knocks his opponent away, he can dash forward and do it again or even incorporate the Blast extension. In Tenkaichi 2, if the player chose to pursue his opponent or follow up with anything else, he'd likely land it. The main point here is that spam/button mashing behavior can be found in either game and is dealt with in the same level of ease when regarding the knowledgeable player.

Zero rightly points out that what makes Tenkaichi's gameplay depth harder to quantify is that its a discussion of whether more gameplay options- mostly stemming from 3D movement- necessarily contribute to a competitive game

I have not yet begun. But the idea that Tenkaichi 2's gameplay depth is harder to quantify based on face value definitely holds merit.

I'm going to take a stab at what I think to be the heart of the question- not can Spike games (Tenkaichi/Raging Blast) be deep, but how- how would skill at those games be exemplified. The way you play T2, Zero, it seems the answer is in the art of not getting hit. Offensive gestures in the Tenkaichi games basically come down to melee strings followed by a finisher, step-in heavy finishes, throws, and Blast 2s; there might be variety within those things, particularly Blast 2s, or the odd advance technique like the Ground-and-Pound prolonging a base combo, but a successful close-range offense only has a handful of ways of being executed. But then defense comes in, and you have jumps, ascents, teleports, dragon dashing, ki-powered guarding, paralysis, explosive waves, automatic after-images (Wild Sense and the like), not to mention melee priority. Your "Daigo Moment #37's" in Tenkaichi are not going to come from offense, they're going to come from a player perfectly dodging Super Explosive Wave all eight times and then slamming the immobile use with a Super Kamehameha to win the game

Your first point here does perk up the ears. I've often said things similar, but to a degree of acknowledging that I know nothing beyond my own experiences. In other words, the question is not CAN Spike games possess depth, but how it can be exemplified. Love the way you word it. My point has been that in many games, not just Spike, a depth may exist that no one is aware of. How to exemplify such depth is the main question. The argument I am often presented with is not of the same open-mindedness, but through the assured knowledge that the game does not have depth because people don't want to acknowledge it.

As far as my game-play... it isn't necessarily the art of not getting hit, though that is a factor. It is the art of expression to the extent of my ability. The depth of combos in Tenkaichi 2 go beyond what you'd normally see in most of my videos. I rarely present extensive combos in my performances because I am not consumed with the sole purpose of Tenkaichi 2 offense. Sure, I like to show off the offense from time to time, but it's not a major factor when my performances are concerned. This also brings a lot of confusion to YouTube viewers that have yet to be educated in Tenkaichi 2's depth. When I perform, I want to express my ability in all parts of the game. I don't want people to just see my offense, I want people to see my defense, my movement, my strategy, my ability to keep the performance fun, exciting and finish with a "big bang", so to speak. Many great Budokai players are known for their combo abilities, which I won't deny. I am subscribed for a reason. However, when regarding games like Budokai 3, Street Fighter, Tekken, MK, SC, the list goes on... a lot of emphasis is put on the offense. This player is able to perform a combo of # hits. This player is able to perform a combo with cancels. This player is able to mix combos together, etc. I hold a lot of respect to players like this because it is impressive. However, they are only presenting one part of game-play. I just got finished explaining this in my "Tenkaichi 2 Depth" piece that I'm currently working on. Most people (and I'm talking about 99%) will talk about the offensive aspect of Budokai when regarding depth, especially when referencing Tenkaichi as the game to counter. THIS IS ALSO WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT WHEN REGARDING THE TRADITIONAL MINDSET. If you were to ask the average, hell, even up to the great players of any fighting game "What are the most important aspects of any fighting game", they will tell you that there are two major factors of combat: "Offense" and "Defense". Though I've done it before in one of my videos, I'll quote the great Sun Tsu one more time. "Invincibility lies in defense, the possibility of victory in the attack."

Through this, one can begin to understand how my performances work. I do not just want to show my offense, I want to show my defense. I want the viewers to know that I could crush my opponent at any given time, yet I will still grant him the opportunity to show me what he's got. Not only will I be prepared for his attack, but I will counter it with techniques beyond the normal level of comprehension, using techniques hidden within the true depth of Tenkaichi 2. Your reference of Daigo's counter to Chun Li's Super Combo is a perfect one. Strange that such a feat was considered god-like in the traditional community, yet I (as well as a couple other top T2 players) have proven to do the same time and time again. I fully comprehend the timing and pressure of Daigo's feat, I've done the equivalent with a blindfold. The number of options available for defense in Tenkaichi 2 is stunning as it is, from face value to adept skill levels. However, the elite techniques relating to defense are beyond the skill requirement of any defensive techniques found in any fighting game today. Are they required? Not always... but Tenkaichi 2 presents the opportunity for its players to challenge themselves once the difficulty setting tops out.

So let's look at the argument from this angle, and we'll keep it simple. When considering the depth of a fighting game in relation to the important factors of combat, people acknowledge offense and defense as the two factors of consideration. Since most people haven't been able to acknowledge the depth of Tenkaichi 2's offensive system yet due to its hidden depth, we can leave "offense" in the air for now. However, when regarding the defensive aspect of Tenkaichi 2 to pretty much any other fighting game, Tenkaichi 2 wins, hands down. There's not even an argument to be presented here, though I'll be happy to hear one. Even if Budokai 3 were to prove to hold more depth than Tenkaichi 2 in the offensive area (which there's too much of an argument on both sides to truly hold support), that's still only 50% of depth consideration regarding what people see a the factors of battle.

Now, lets pump this up a notch, and this may simply stem from my new understanding of combat based on the evolved battle construct of Tenkaichi 2. People consider Offense and Defense to be the major factors of combat. Though I don't see anything wrong with this, it is missing the third piece of the Triforce. The third factor, which may actually be the most important factor of combat... is "movement". Oh, I'm sure a lot of viewers hated that pipe bomb. Without proper movement, an attack may never find its target and without proper maneuvering abilities, an attempt to evade an oncoming attack may leave a player to fall the victim. Unfortunately, traditional fighters can't stand against this argument simply due to the mechanical limitations of the traditional console fighter construct. Without even getting into any of the advanced aspects of Tenkaichi 2's maneuvering system, traditional fighters still can't hold their own against the free movement of a Tenkaichi game.

For any further explanations regarding what I've touched down on today, I will continue my work on the Tenkaichi 2 Depth article and will try to keep you guys posted. BUT for now, I think I've said enough. I have no idea how this all is going to fit in Kanzenshuu's forum space.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Can't have useless characters if they are all the same.

Character actions play all the same, but characters that execute damage under the standard baseline are useless. Useless especially fighting characters above it. They also get less health bars without item slots wasted on them. Considering that in the BT games, weaker characters dont have stat perks, like being faster or more durable or something. Nothing really evens out the cost.

[DonieZ]

@ZeroAnnihilated; That Tenkaichi 2 video you posted was impressive, however, and well done for being able to discover new combos and ways of attacking, but all I see is one sided battles. Show me a video where you or someone else is fighting another very good player demonstrating a tight match. Because is that I want to see, a tight battle, a to and fro fight. Take a moment to consider what is in bold. If you can't show me a video as such, then I deem Dragon Ball Z: Tenkaichi 2 as useless as any other Spike title.

Most of the reason I enjoyed the Budokai series and Burst Limit was largely down to having to and fro battles. There were appropriate defensive options in order to make this possible. In Spike's games, in particular the Raging Blast series, I felt this was lacking; the sonic sway especially was just for show, a gimmick which wasn't efficient. Tenkaichi 3 I believe tried to attempt so, however they caused the game to be broken.

I won't comment on my opinion on the Tenkaichi series, since it isn't as fresh in my mind; I'm almost approaching 20 so I reckon I'm a little younger than a lot of the oldest fans (apparently I'm a "casual" fan because I watched DBZ on Toonami >_> ...). But that says something. If Tenkaichi 2 and 3 were so unmemorable that I don't have a lasting opinion of them, they must not have been excellent. Not even about age, Budokai 2 was my first and most loved DB game I've ever owned. The only DB game other than RB2 pre-ps3 era which I distinctly remember having a hate for was the first Tenkaichi.

There is also the fact I no longer have any of my DB games pre-PS3. So it might just be I had T2 and 3 for a shorter time before they inevitably disappeared (borrowed/lost/broken (stolen?...)). I know I broke Budokai 2 multiple times, and sold a broken Budokai 3 to a store ; the rest, well, only Kami knows...

[goku the krump dancer]

@SingleFringe It's called tiers... Every fighting game if not every game period has their own tier lists. Spike kept there's more in line with the show, which is why Videl doesn't have as much health or do as much damage as SSJ4 Gogeta.

@Doniez Youre misunderstanding what I meant by my definition of "casuals". The fact that your on this forum means that your more than just a casual fan of the series. What I meant was someone who watched DBZ back in the day but hasn't since then and doesn't really keep tabs on it now a days. That's A casual fan of DBZ in my book. I'm not really sure what SingleFringe means when he uses the word though. I watched DBZ on Toonami as well and I know damn well I'm no casual fan.

[Quebaz]

@SingleFringe It's called tiers... Every fighting game if not every game period has their own tier lists. Spike kept there's more in line with the show, which is why Videl doesn't have as much health or do as much damage as SSJ4 Gogeta.

Except most fighting games don't puporsely take out life points out of a character and make them weaker just for the hell of it (with the ONLY exception being Dan from Street Fighter 4, but even with the Ultra update he's now considered viable). In most fighting games such cases exist because said character options aren't the best when compared to other characters and so have low chances of winning. Sean from Street Fighter 3 Thirs Strike comes to mind that while yes, he's low tier, when someone master his options he becomes dangerous to someone using character like Yun or Chun-LI who are top-tier.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Oh yeah I saw one of the gimps you posted, it looks pretty neat. Have you (or anyone here) played Final Fantasy Dissidia or its sequel btw? Came out on the PSP, it's pretty darn good. It's also a 3D open arena fighter, although one on one, and is great fun with a ton of depth. Check out this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKzJr5dvfnM
The guy must really play a lot, in order to time those blocks/parries perfectly like that, when I used to play I tended to just stick with dodges. None of Spike's titles imo have anything on this stuff, not in leagues. There are so many different kinds of attacks or play styles varying between characters, from various short range to long range attacks. The game's good (I own the sequel).

I have the original, Garland and Onion Knight main (Low tiers all day!). It is a good example of a 3D fighter done right regarding variety, but the invincible dodging, while useful to spam, can slow the pace of battles, as if Square wanted to recreate FF7 Advent Children-styled fighting, but could not match the speed on the PSP, so they let everyone fly because because.

Your example also put its greatest weakness on display; the brave system's being completely arbitrary (Read on), broken (My summon steals all the Brave you built over the entire game, so now I hit you once and I've dealt more damage than you're smart play has the entire game) and designed to fix a problem (balancing out players of vastly different experience-point levels) that it does not fix (stronger characters are stronger and likely have better equipment- hell, being the same level doesn't really matter if one player has better equipment) and should never have existed (Whose bright idea was it to let experience levels and equipment be the default multiplayer mode in a fighting game?). It's a good concept brought down by the dumbest attempt at balancing I've ever seen.

In fact... @Goku_the_Krump_Dancer & BlazingFiddlesticks... if you recognize Tenkaichi 2 mechanics, check this one out, lol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_sYwI-hjSU
I uploaded this gem back in April but never put it on public. I was explaining it to a good friend (and fellow top T2 player) and eventually uploaded the example. If/when I get around to remaking the tutorials, I'll be sure to include this one.

I've seen the A.I. dash out of my IT's before, but I did not know the other player still had control the moment the IT'er reappears. Hmm.

[EXBadguy]

I think I recall him saying gameplay wasn't one of his priorities, but to outright not care about it amazes me. That fb group is filled with the scrubs of the community. I have no problem with people enjoying the Tenkaichi style of play, but these guys just complain about not yet getting an authentic story mode and lack of every single character ever seen in DB. Fair enough the story mode is usually lacking, but the point and fact is, they haven''t got the time to do it properly whilst making a fighting game, therefore they might as well not do it at all. You've got to be reasonable, don't complain about one thing and ask for another, when attempting to have both is detrimental to the game. We won't ever get an authentic story mode in a DB fighting game until we get a game which is developed for 3 years at least. Clearly Treevax isn't too clever; all he is is smiles and "^^"s. >_> ...

And that's what I am talking aout when I said that NB listens to the wrong people. Sure other things like youtube and other forums, they don't listen to, but with Treevax(no offense) and his band, they don't know what they're doing. If they have gave constructive criticism from the beginning, we would've had a RB3 or something else that would be good. I've said this many times, and I will continue to keep on doing so, they need to SPECIFY what they want in a game.

They only place suggested they do is the official NB forum, as I've seen Charlotte (forgot second name), a community manager, say on her own or the NB Facebook to use the official NB forum to let them know what we want. I've glanced at the forum and it's pretty dead.

But there were people who were acting like they're spoiled too back when the forum was very active.

Honestly, what I want is a great open arena 3D fighting Dragon Ball game. I want a game with all the elements of DB but also to allow for battles to get competitive and to have neat features. But the thing is I'm a casual gamer. If what makes the game enjoyable isn't accessible, or at least it isn't enjoyable to learn, I'm going to get turned off. I'm guessing a big deal in RB2 was the new combos. Guess what, I had no interest in learning them; none; zero. If you've bored me before majority of the fun options of the game have been opened up to me, you've done an immensely poor job. Maybe it's the way my mind is, probably why I'm good at maths; I hate memorising, hate it, I enjoy working things out. If the aim of the game is to memorise a characters combo string I'm throwing the CD in the bin. The game(s) needed more defensive options, sonic sway would've been great if it wasn't redundant(!), it should have been a carbon copy of Budokai's but in 3D. I want to have a good to and fro battle; fighting games aren't about who can memorise the longest combos then one-sidedly perform them on their opponent. SF is one of the best fighting games and most combos aren't even that long; but the best are pretty darn awesome and pretty hard to perform! Players should be given incentive to learn the game.

Hmm.. Understandable that if a game would take you 9 months for you to learn its battle system, it ain't worth it, but how was RB2 uninteresting to learn? All you had to do is just mash [],[],/\/\, or, [],/\,/\, and then you made a combo. Only half of them are short. It's not hard at all, unless you had a hard time "learning" BT2 & 3 too. I'm not trying to come off as an ignorant asshole, I am a casual gamer myself(college transformed me from a hardcore gamer to casual). I'm just asking how was RB2 tedious to you?

[VegettoEX]

I said it early on, and I know a couple other people also asked it, but I think it needs to be re-stated/re-asked in light of the extra conversation that's taken place:

Is there any evidence what-so-ever that Bandai Namco / their hired developers actively listen to fan feedback and incorporate those direct bits of feedback into their development cycles?

Because I'm pretty sure they don't. I know I wouldn't if I were in their shoes. Who do you listen to? Why? Is that a single person or a conglomerate of thoughts all smashed together into an amalgamation of nothingness?

[Quebaz]

Honestly, what I want is a great open arena 3D fighting Dragon Ball game. I want a game with all the elements of DB but also to allow for battles to get competitive and to have neat features. But the thing is I'm a casual gamer. If what makes the game enjoyable isn't accessible, or at least it isn't enjoyable to learn, I'm going to get turned off. I'm guessing a big deal in RB2 was the new combos. Guess what, I had no interest in learning them; none; zero. If you've bored me before majority of the fun options of the game have been opened up to me, you've done an immensely poor job. Maybe it's the way my mind is, probably why I'm good at maths; I hate memorising, hate it, I enjoy working things out. If the aim of the game is to memorise a characters combo string I'm throwing the CD in the bin. The game(s) needed more defensive options, sonic sway would've been great if it wasn't redundant(!), it should have been a carbon copy of Budokai's but in 3D. I want to have a good to and fro battle; fighting games aren't about who can memorise the longest combos then one-sidedly perform them on their opponent. SF is one of the best fighting games and most combos aren't even that long; but the best are pretty darn awesome and pretty hard to perform! Players should be given incentive to learn the game.

Hmm.. Understandable that if a game would take you 9 months for you to learn its battle system, it ain't worth it, but how was RB2 uninteresting to learn? All you had to do is just mash [],[],/\/\, or, [],/\,/\, and then you made a combo. Only half of them are short. It's not hard at all, unless you had a hard time "learning" BT2 & 3 too. I'm not trying to come off as an ignorant asshole, I am a casual gamer myself(college transformed me from a hardcore gamer to casual). I'm just asking how was RB2 tedious to you?

What game does it take 9 months to learn its battle system? Also yes, RB2 has even less interesting mechanics than BT3/2, It is slow, repetitive and it's all about memorizing the other strings so you don't repeat the same action and drop the combo . Not only that but the game has like 10 archetypes so it eases the memorization, but then it makes things even more predicting and boring as you have like 6 characters with the same exact combo. But overall RB2 is a slow game, had it had BT3's speed it would be much better.

[Nickolaidas]

PS. He doesnt care about gameplay but thinks BOZ sucked. Seriously, where is his credibility? Oh right, because the storymode wasn't faithful in its glorious cutscenes frame by frame. This is what I mean with wrong priorities.

If that's the case, Xenoverse will utterly suck by his book, because it completely screws the canon storyline.

I said it early on, and I know a couple other people also asked it, but I think it needs to be re-stated/re-asked in light of the extra conversation that's taken place:

Is there any evidence what-so-ever that Bandai Namco / their hired developers actively listen to fan feedback and incorporate those direct bits of feedback into their development cycles?

Do they listen to the majority? If so, yes, they listen. If not, they don't. Simple as that. I'm not saying whether following the majority of fans regarding a kids show is a good idea. I'm just stating a fact.

Hey, first post!

[VegettoEX]

Do they listen to the majority? If so, yes, they listen. If not, they don't. Simple as that. I'm not saying whether following the majority of fans regarding a kids show is a good idea. I'm just stating a fact.

But that's the question I'm asking (which is why I don't understand your response): are they listening, never mind to whether it's a majority or not? I don't know, but if I had to guess, I'd heavily doubt it.

[Nickolaidas]

I meant, say, if the majority asked for a golden armored Raditz, did Namco gave them a golden armored Raditz? If they did, they listened to the majority.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

@SingleFringe It's called tiers... Every fighting game if not every game period has their own tier lists. Spike kept there's more in line with the show, which is why Videl doesn't have as much health or do as much damage as SSJ4 Gogeta.

Uhh, I did mention tiers in my response. Doesnt meant its not inbalanced. I never said all characters have to deal the same damage or have the same skills. But, no characters are totally useless in Burst Limit or even the Budokai games, some characters have more moves than others, some have higher transformations but the perks arent all simply gains to make characters better than others, there is a cost. With Dimps transformations increase Attack and Ki while decrease physical defense and stamina. That is more aligned with the anime than, Goku always being better than a Cell Jr. There are no benifits at all playing as a Freeza soldier because there is nothing about them that makes them worth their weight.

I meant, say, if the majority asked for a golden armored Raditz, did Namco gave them a golden armored Raditz? If they did, they listened to the majority.

They would do that. The majority asked for QTE and Ninja Stormesc boss battles, and UT reflected that sole demand. People wanted a CaC and now we have one. Its gameplay rants, they dont listen to because opinions are never consistent.

[ZeroAnnihilated]

@ZeroAnnihilated; That Tenkaichi 2 video you posted was impressive, however, and well done for being able to discover new combos and ways of attacking, but all I see is one sided battles. Show me a video where you or someone else is fighting another very good player demonstrating a tight match. Because is that I want to see, a tight battle, a to and fro fight. Take a moment to consider what is in bold. If you can't show me a video as such, then I deem Dragon Ball Z: Tenkaichi 2 as useless as any other Spike title.

All of my battles are one sided. My name wouldn't hold as much credibility in the Tenkaichi community otherwise. My initial response was "deem as you wish"... but I still feel compelled to bring you back to the details you may have missed. When I said most Tenkaichi players don't know the true depth of Tenkaichi 2, I mean that there are 3 players that can be found on the net that hold fluid top level Tenkaichi 2 ability: TheDBZShadow, Zoso9391 and myself. The only way anyone would be able to see your requested matches at the top level would be if these three players were to face each other... but that won't ever happen. The closest you'd find to the matches you want to see wouldn't be top level. Deeming the game as "useless" based on a community's inability to play at the top level is a bit harsh and seems to stem from the bliss of ignorance, but I won't try and stop you. I'm only providing logic here, it's up to you to either accept it or not. Also, I don't mean to sound insulting when I imply such ignorance... I merely believe that I've already provided enough proof that Tenkaichi 2 not only holds its own weight in the face of opposing games, but absolutely crushes the competition regarding the depth of categories that traditional minds never thought to consider (and remember, I haven't even pushed beyond basic concepts here). To ignore everything I've said thus far and still create a reason structured around the activity of the community itself just to further trash a high quality game seems to resemble a last resort of triviality. In this sense, I have to say that the argument has changed from something I can provide (explaining the depth of Tenkaichi 2) to something I cannot (a community that understands and plays the game the way I do). Though I still fully intend on finishing my project explaining the depth of Tenkaichi 2, a cold-cut request like this lets me know that as much depth at T2 has, there's no amount of information that I could provide that would change your mind.

Still... when I first started improving, I do remember Jey3149 and Spralwers having some pretty good two player matches... not against each other, but against their own opponents. Even still... those videos are from 2006-07. Zoso9391 has some two player videos worth watching as well, but as I know Zoso's abilities, I can tell he doesn't go all out.

I won't comment on my opinion on the Tenkaichi series, since it isn't as fresh in my mind; I'm almost approaching 20 so I reckon I'm a little younger than a lot of the oldest fans (apparently I'm a "casual" fan because I watched DBZ on Toonami >_> ...). But that says something. If Tenkaichi 2 and 3 were so unmemorable that I don't have a lasting opinion of them, they must not have been excellent. Not even about age, Budokai 2 was my first and most loved DB game I've ever owned. The only DB game other than RB2 pre-ps3 era which I distinctly remember having a hate for was the first Tenkaichi.

I watched DBZ on Toonami... stayed up past bedtime to watch it when it came on at 12:30. I miss the good ol' days. Also, I think everyone including Tenkaichi players hate the first Tenkaichi. I can show some respect as it was the first of its kind and it helped combat gaming evolve to what I see in Tenkaichi 2, but chances are that I'll never play T1 ever again.

[EXBadguy]

What game does it take 9 months to learn its battle system?

It was a figure of speech. I mean by 9 months to learn the characters you are interested in. For example Arc System games(Guilty Gear and Blazblue) have advanced mechanics for it unique characters along with their combos, which takes a lot to memorize.

Also yes, RB2 has even less interesting mechanics than BT3/2, It is slow, repetitive and it's all about memorizing the other strings so you don't repeat the same action and drop the combo . Not only that but the game has like 10 archetypes so it eases the memorization, but then it makes things even more predicting and boring as you have like 6 characters with the same exact combo. But overall RB2 is a slow game, had it had BT3's speed it would be much better.

I agree that RB2 was slow, but memorizing and characters having the exact same combos? I don't get it. The BT series had the exact. same. thing. Big guys like Bojack(forgot which form), Super Trunks, and Broly had the same combo patterns in BT3 that we had to look in the command list to memorize, but that's okay? I'd say BT2/3 combos are almost JUST as predictable and repetitive as RB2. The only difference is that combat option wise BT3>RB2>BT2.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

@SingleFringe It's called tiers... Every fighting game if not every game period has their own tier lists. Spike kept there's more in line with the show, which is why Videl doesn't have as much health or do as much damage as SSJ4 Gogeta.

Except most fighting games don't puporsely take out life points out of a character and make them weaker just for the hell of it (with the ONLY exception being Dan from Street Fighter 4, but even with the Ultra update he's now considered viable). In most fighting games such cases exist because said character options aren't the best when compared to other characters and so have low chances of winning.

When I think about how Tenkaichi was made, I think they segregated characters like that do drastically was just apart of the more fitting concept of it as a simulator instead a competitive fighter. Tenkaichi and RB would never work on that level, but Namco's gimmick of wanting fans to "feel like they ARE Goku" is probably why all the issues in Tenkaichi by Budokai standards exist. It was never balanced to be for competition in mind. With that, I blame Namco for that "one-or-the-other" attitude and given us Budokai, the competitive title. Saibamen are weak on purpose because they were just fodder in the anime. Misleading the fans that BT was for that taste is why it gets so much bad rep.

[goku the krump dancer]

@SingleFringe It's called tiers... Every fighting game if not every game period has their own tier lists. Spike kept there's more in line with the show, which is why Videl doesn't have as much health or do as much damage as SSJ4 Gogeta.

Uhh, I did mention tiers in my response. Doesnt meant its not inbalanced. I never said all characters have to deal the same damage or have the same skills. But, no characters are totally useless in Burst Limit or even the Budokai games, some characters have more moves than others, some have higher transformations but the perks arent all simply gains to make characters better than others, there is a cost. With Dimps transformations increase Attack and Ki while decrease physical defense and stamina. That is more aligned with the anime than, Goku always being better than a Cell Jr. There are no benifits at all playing as a Freeza soldier because there is nothing about them that makes them worth their weight.

Characters like Freeza Soldier, Cui, Nam, Yajirobe etc are called "joke characters" plenty of of big name fighting franchises have done it and as we all know fundamentally they are supposed to worse off from the rest of the cast. In Tenkaichi's case or more specifically Tenkaichi 3's case those joke characters are over shadowed by the crap ton of more serious character out there but even then they can be played seriously with the right items equipped.

Ya know, the more I type and try to go over my thoughts, I can't help but agree more and more with ZeroAnnihilated on how the "Tenkaichi" style of play is underrated just cause it plays differently. Everyone seems to just come to the generalization that "All the characters play %100 the same" thats simply not the case.

You made a point previously about how Hardcore Budokai Players would disagree with my personal sentiment in that both games have equal amounts of depth and I'm sure they would, I'm also certain that the Hardcore Tenkaichi players would do the same in response to the their more "traditional" counter part. Case in point with ZeroAnnihilated a rare person who can properly defend the Sparking games namely Tenkaichi 2. With which none of the opposers have yet to truly go toe to toe with him with the discussion at hand.

All that being said though with the original question being asked about "Tenkaichi fans" ruining the production of the games, I have to say, my answers hasn't changed with a resounding "No". You keep generally categorizing everyone who likes the "Tenkaichi Style" as "casuals" and you've yet to be specific about what a "casual" is. A casual what? a casual gamer? a casual fan of the series? Either way I would still have to disagree. While yes some people who like theses games want "MORE CHARACTERS' there are people like myself who always I might add, prefer'd a more condescend, sensible Dimps style roster.

No has been listened all that well as VegettoEX pointed out. The Casuals "as you put it" still didn't get there game with 200+ characters, I still have yet to get my dream DB fighting game, ZeroAnnihilated feels he hasn't been listened to either, you Budokai guys haven't gotten your new game, us Super DBZ fans will probably never get a sequel, Legacy of Goku fans haven't gotten their series reboot either. Namco may take a tip or two from what fans want in their games but at the end of the day they still do what they please. They took "feedback" and ran with it of their own accord.

Raging Blast 1: had too lengthly of a story mode to the point were small skirmishes like Goku testing Future Trunks or Vegeta sparring with Kid Trunks were turned into long drawn out battles.

Raging Blast 2: People said they were tired of going from Raditz to Boo, they want something new. So the devs damn near removed story mode as whole (which I didn't have a problem with) in place of something "New/different".

Ultimate Tenkaichi : People wanted boss battles akin to the ones in Naruto Ninja Storm with QTEs and what did we get? they made the whole damn game based on QTEs. Along with a half assed character creator mode.

After 3 years of no Dimps games most people probably gave up hope on a "traditional" Budokai ever coming back, so everyone tried to rally behind this " Fan-Wish Raging Blast 3" thing that Treevax had/has going on. But what did we get?………… Battle of Z.

Now we have Xenoverse and thus far it seems to be trying to combine the best of both worlds. A traditional Budokai-esque button lay out together with the open freeness of the Tenkaichi games with a seemingly respectable CaC mode to boot AND and potentially "Brand new Story" sorta… So whats no to like so far outside of there possibly being no GT.

[VegettoEX]

Who are these "people" that you are talking about? How exactly are you quantifying what they said? These games sell globally: have you read every bit of feedback in every language? What was your data collection process like?

That's my point. Everyone keeps talking about "people" and "the fans" but just seems to talk about what THEY THEMSELVES WANTED, near as I can tell.

[goku the krump dancer]

While I'm sure no extensive research was done on either of our parts. When we say "people" or at least when I do, I'm referring to Youtube comments, comment sections on different gaming websites and of course conversations we've had on here. Do I read em all? Yeah, but only if I'm on here, when it comes to Youtube and such I breeze through what I feel like is enough to come to the conclusion that at the end of the day everyone wants something different even if its just a little bit.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Who are these "people" that you are talking about? How exactly are you quantifying what they said? These games sell globally: have you read every bit of feedback in every language? What was your data collection process like?

That's my point. Everyone keeps talking about "people" and "the fans" but just seems to talk about what THEY THEMSELVES WANTED, near as I can tell.

"The fans" usually refer to the section of the fanbase that projects the most common, reoccuring and often most unlikely requests each year.