Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[RandomGuy96]

I guess I overestimated Salagir.

With all the characters and their forms being roughly equal to each other (barring special exceptions like fusions or children of a fusion like Bra), once you reach the point where you can access the first transformation, I'm not sure I see drastically increasing their base strength to a specific new level as a requirement for accessing the other forms in DBM.

Which is stupid in and of itself, as Salagir would basically be saying that Freeza was roughly as strong as Perfect Cell.

[hleV]

That's only a problem if you don't believe Vegeta is capable of developing the ability to get rage boosts, as BoG would imply he did. Which is only a problem if you headcanon is incredibly restrictive and not open to later expansions of characters' capabilities.

Much in the same way you can defend the strange choices regarding what characters are capable on the grounds that we may just have incredibly limited knowledge, the same can be applied to every instance of off-the-wall character abilities in BoG.

That said, regarding both instances, when it's such a huge shift in the readers'/watchers' perception of what was seen as possible, further elaboration is needed to prevent it from feeling sloppily executed. In Battle of Gods' case, that was sloppily executed (not a contradiction or plothole). Here, unless we get some elaboration on SSj3, I'll have to also chalk it up to sloppy execution (though still not a contradiction or plothole).

While I can see where you're coming from, I don't think it's wrong to treat a completely unexplained, unexpected and somewhat off thing as a mistake, which BOG seems to introduce quite a lot of in a short amount of time.

[SSJ God Gogeta]

I hope we see U18 Vegeta's reaction.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Which is stupid in and of itself, as Salagir would basically be saying that Freeza was roughly as strong as Perfect Cell.

I'm not disagreeing with questioning the logic of such a tier system. It definitely causes some issues. I'm just saying I don't have a problem with the currently unfolding events specifically in regards to DBM and the logic that has already been set as its foundation. This isn't terrible "jump-the-shark" story-telling with the way the world has been previously defined by Salagir. Though I may take issue with it if it were trying to be applied to the actual Dragon World, it's not being applied to THE Dragon World. It's part of Salagir's interpretation of it.

That latter point is a whole 'nother discussion though, and I don't feel like getting into it. xD

[rereboy]

The only thing that I remember Salagir saying is that a SSJ1 will not be stronger than a SSJ2, and someone at base will not be stronger than someone at SSJ1, and so on, except special cases like fusions and such. There's still various degrees within base, SSj1 and etc, but people who have already achieved those stages some time ago have most likely already fined tuned those stages.

[Zephyr]

While I can see where you're coming from, I don't think it's wrong to treat a completely unexplained, unexpected and somewhat off thing as a mistake, which BOG seems to introduce quite a lot of in a short amount of time.

Yeah, Battle of Gods does have it's share of things that seem like complete negligence for the source material, being thrown in mistakenly, due to not considering all of the norms set by the series (and with Super Saiyan Gohan, we have confirmation of at least one mistake). But it is what it is; it's still adding to the things characters can do, implicitly further expanding the finer details of certain concepts, intentional or not. That's not to say everyone has to enjoy that it's doing that though, so I can see where people are coming from when they say they dislike that it did it in the first place. All of the above applies to DBM. People are entitled to dislike that something odd is happening with regards to what the series proper implicitly laid out, and people are also entitled to justify it on the grounds that we didn't quite know everything about what said odd thing is happening in regards to in the first place.

[Scarz]

I don't really care much for the recent debates going on in this thread as of late. All I know is that the recent page has me all kinds of happy!

[SSJ God Gogeta]

I don't really care much for the recent debates going on in this thread as of late. All I know is that the recent page has me all kinds of happy!

Same

[goku the krump dancer]

Houston we have Goldilocks.

An eeeeevil Goldilocks.

I hope we see U18 Vegeta's reaction.

So do I lol. But wasn't it stated that "Our" Vegeta found something better than SSJ3? I believe Salagir or someone stated that it isn't a higher form per say but something more sufficient. Which is probably while Vegeta fans are getting their SSJ3 fix with this Prince instead of the primary one because he won't use it.

Meanwhile thats still a huge gash in his chest, he just may pass out after the fight is done.

[rereboy]

This all just bears so many unverified (and in fact now falsified) assumptions though. The assumption (more of the interpretation, I guess) that they were referring to the ability to get a boost from rage at all, rather than the volume of the boost. The assumption that enormous and untapped power cannot be accumulated by the single most diligent and brutal self-trainer in the series. That rage boosts cannot be developed. That Vegeta is literally the exact same character in Battle of Gods that he was in the Buu arc.

The lack of explanation is what makes it sloppy, and I've already pointed that out. You don't have to like it though, and I won't try to convince you that you should.

Now Super Saiyan 3 in the series is already implied to be unnatural and exclusive to dead people and magical fusions. It makes no sense for a person who is neither to be able to access it, via a method that was never said to be the key to unlocking it (emotional upset). Because of this, a lot of people will not like it. Justifiably so, just as you are justified in not liking Vegeta's ability to achieve significant gains via rage in BoG. Yes, there are easy ways to explain it (we don't know what he went through, the implicit restrictions of the form being such rather than explicit leaves room for Vegeta to reach the form, etc), but there are for the BoG rage boost as well.

I guess my point is that whether Vegeta got a BoG rage boost here or SSj3, it's pretty much the same in terms of flipping our impressions of what was once thought possible and impossible in the series, and defending one over the other seems a tad silly. And that's about all my point is, there's no need for a huge debate since I'm likely to just be reiterating these points. Take it or leave it.

Those were all natural and logical interpretations of what the manga presented, though. There's not even a hint of someone developing something like that in the series. Vegeta's ability comes literally out of nowhere and, like you said, with no explanation. Even expanded explanations by the fanbase struggle to explain it because Vegeta has trained more intensely and has been way more emotional, enraged and desperate in the past.

Because of all this, its beyond sloppy, imo. Its one thing when its a fan manga or something similar to that doing something kind of sloppy. But, an official movie? I dare say that we should expect a little more and I personally will always demand more from the "real" stuff.

Regarding SSJ3 in DBM, its already been explained that even in DBM its regarded as an "unnatural" transformation, since can only be sustained a short while and the more powerful is the fighter, the less time it will last. As for it only be achievable in the afterlife or in a fusion, all that was said in the manga was that Goku had a much easier time maintaining it while he was dead, so I don't agree that its demonstrated in the manga that it can only be achievable be dead people or fusions. I would have no problems with a fan manga that assumed that that is the case, but I also have no problems with a fan manga assuming that its not the case and that it can be achieved by unfused, alive people with a rage trigger like the other SSJ transformations but that a person who is alive will have trouble maintaining that transformation.

All of the above applies to DBM. People are entitled to dislike that something odd is happening with regards to what the series proper implicitly laid out, and people are also entitled to justify it on the grounds that we didn't quite know everything about what said odd thing is happening in regards to in the first place.

I agree, but I personally don't use the same standards of evaluation regarding a fan product that I reserve for the official products.

A fan product is done by amateurs fans, mostly for fan service and for pure fun and celebration of the franchise they love. Anything less than great is very easily excusable and as long as its entertaining and is certainly above average for the quality of fan products of that franchise, there's not much reason to complain very much, especially since its so easy to disregard anything that we might not like or might find not great because it was never the "real" thing in the first place. Such is not the case in a official product.

[ParkerAL]

I really hate that douche-bag Vegeta was able to achieve a form that the Vegeta with actual character development couldn't reach. The message that Vegeta could have attained the ultimate power he wanted simply by remaining a genocidal monster leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I mean, sure, Gotenks getting the form in the main Dragon Ball story-line was a little contrived, but at least he was using a unique means of reaching that level through fusion. Here Vegeta obtains it after being faced with a minor inconvenience, fighting a freaking Cell Jr. of all things.

I've given Dragon Ball Multiverse the benefit of the doubt before with its silly plot developments, but this one takes the cake. Depending on how it's handled, we might have a extreme jumping the shark moment on our hands here.

[SSJ God Gogeta]

I really hate that douche-bag Vegeta was able to achieve a form that the Vegeta with actual character development couldn't reach. The message that Vegeta could have attained the ultimate power he wanted simply by remaining a genocidal monster leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I mean, sure, Gotenks getting the form in the main Dragon Ball story-line was a little contrived, but at least he was using a unique means of reaching that level through fusion. Here Vegeta obtains it after being faced with a minor inconvenience, fighting a freaking Cell Jr. of all things.

I've given Dragon Ball Multiverse the benefit of the doubt before with its silly plot developments, but when it comes to jumping the shark, this takes the cake.

Really..... This one takes the cake...

[TonyTheTiger]

I really hate that douche-bag Vegeta was able to achieve a form that the Vegeta with actual character development couldn't reach.

Don't forget that DBM takes place 10 years after the end of the series and just about everyone from all the universes are stronger than their manga counterparts as a result. So there's no indication that U18 Vegeta can't reach Super Saiyan 3. He may actually already have done it. It's just been suggested that U18 Vegeta doesn't think it's that great a form. And he's got a point since it's so energy inefficient. Honestly, Super Saiyan 3 was such an ass pull in and of itself that I don't think there's anything DBM could do with it that would be worse than Goku just randomly going "By the way, I learned this by training off screen in the afterlife." I'm no DBM apologist but you can't really fault it for being like Dragon Ball, and this is a pretty Toriyama-esque right here.

[SSJ God Gogeta]

I really hate that douche-bag Vegeta was able to achieve a form that the Vegeta with actual character development couldn't reach. The message that Vegeta could have attained the ultimate power he wanted simply by remaining a genocidal monster leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I mean, sure, Gotenks getting the form in the main Dragon Ball story-line was a little contrived, but at least he was using a unique means of reaching that level through fusion. Here Vegeta obtains it after being faced with a minor inconvenience, fighting a freaking Cell Jr. of all things.

I've given Dragon Ball Multiverse the benefit of the doubt before with its silly plot developments, but this one takes the cake. Depending on how it's handled, we might have a extreme jumping the shark moment on our hands here.

That's a bit better but still.....
The Nostalgia Critic clip I think is going WAY too far...

[ParkerAL]

Really..... This one takes the cake...

I can't really think of any comparable moment off the top of my head, at least when it comes to power-ups. Vegito having SS3, for instance, made a reasonable amount of sense. Being 1/2 Goku gave him a head start towards obtaining SS3 again. Pan reaching Super Saiyan during her fight with Kakarot was also handled relatively well. You could argue Saligir did a better job building up to it than Akira Toriyam did with Goten's canonical transformation. Pan actually had to work for it.

So yeah, at least from what I can remember, this is the first time a power-up in the comic has bugged me seriously.

@ TonyTheTiger: I see your point, but I still don't think it makes much sense, even by Toriyama standards. Goku training in the afterlife at least gives a supernatural reason for how he pulled the form out of his rear end. Who did U13 Vegeta fight after killing Freeza that gave him enough of a challenge to reach a higher power level than U18 Vegeta? Our Vegeta reached his potential through competing with Goku and facing the revolving-door of unique threats directed at the Earth.

EDIT:

That's a bit better but still.....
The Nostalgia Critic clip I think is going WAY too far...

Yeah, you have a point. It was just one of the first things that came to mind when I saw the new page. I probably should have put more thought into whether to post it or not. Although, I do think this could be a case of "jumping the shark" the clip is extreme given the situation. If I could go back in time by a half hour, I'd stop myself from linking to it.

On a more positive note, the artwork for the page is as spectacular as ever. I have to give Asura major points for pulling off such a bad-ass transformation, even if it does make little sense, in my opinion.

[SSJ God Gogeta]

Really..... This one takes the cake...

I can't really think of any comparable moment off the top of my head, at least when it comes to power-ups. Vegito having SS3, for instance, made a reasonable amount of sense. Being 1/2 Goku gave him a head start towards obtaining SS3 again. Pan reaching Super Saiyan during her fight with Kakarot was also handled relatively well. You could argue Saligir did a better job building up to it than Akira Toriyam did with Goten's canonical transformation. Pan actually had to work for it.

So yeah, at least from what I can remember, this is the first time a power-up in the comic has bugged me seriously.

Sure off the top of your head but I can name many others that make this look like nothing.
But in the end it's for the fans of the character for example Broly......

[enjyu123]

Seems like I might have to get catched up on Multiverse again.

[SSJ God Gogeta]

Seems like I might have to get catched up on Multiverse again.

Indeed

[enjyu123]

Wow, holy shit, this has gotten so good since I left it, I'm updated.

[rereboy]

I really hate that douche-bag Vegeta was able to achieve a form that the Vegeta with actual character development couldn't reach. The message that Vegeta could have attained the ultimate power he wanted simply by remaining a genocidal monster leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I mean, sure, Gotenks getting the form in the main Dragon Ball story-line was a little contrived, but at least he was using a unique means of reaching that level through fusion. Here Vegeta obtains it after being faced with a minor inconvenience, fighting a freaking Cell Jr. of all things.

I've given Dragon Ball Multiverse the benefit of the doubt before with its silly plot developments, but this one takes the cake. Depending on how it's handled, we might have a extreme jumping the shark moment on our hands here.

What makes you think main Vegeta couldn't reach SSJ3...? This is several years after the fight with Buu. In fact, it has been implied that Vegeta could have found something better, or at least he was trying to.

Don't forget that DBM takes place 10 years after the end of the series and just about everyone from all the universes are stronger than their manga counterparts as a result. So there's no indication that U18 Vegeta can't reach Super Saiyan 3. He may actually already have done it. It's just been suggested that U18 Vegeta doesn't think it's that great a form. And he's got a point since it's so energy inefficient. Honestly, Super Saiyan 3 was such an ass pull in and of itself that I don't think there's anything DBM could do with it that would be worse than Goku just randomly going "By the way, I learned this by training off screen in the afterlife." I'm no DBM apologist but you can't really fault it for being like Dragon Ball, and this is a pretty Toriyama-esque right here.

I agree.

I can't really think of any comparable moment off the top of my head, at least when it comes to power-ups.

Goten and Trunks having SSJ in the manga is easily way worse, for example, and if we want to talk about all kinds of power-ups, then who can forget the marvelous inconsistency of the zenkai gains in the Namek saga, or the amazingly convenient power-up that Cell got after blowing up that made him go all the way from semi-perfect Cell to Super Perfect Cell?

This Vegeta at least follows one of the already laid out routes for achieving a SSJ transformation, aka rage, and he was already pretty strong as a SSJ2, so it makes sense that he was ready for the next SSJ form and needed just a trigger. As for how he became a strong SSJ2 in his universe, we still don't know anything about their universe so I'll reserve my judgment regarding its plausibility when I know more about it.