Unpopular DB opinions

[rereboy]

Waaay too serious business.

Pan "abusing" Giru is on the same level as one of three stooges hitting another. Its not meant to be something really serious.

[garnetjester]

Well, Gohan had quite a serious case of Stockholm syndrome going on with Piccolo... And Giru was a robot anyway! Pan is tsundere, and I liked that. What really bothered me was why couldn't they make her a super saiyan? That was really stupid, because in EOZ we can see that she's the only one of Goku's lineage who inherited his love for fighting to an extent similar to his own, so it's such a waste to just make her a weakling. I'm not saying she should be SSJ4, but come on, after the SSJ bargain sale of DBZ it made no sense to not allow her that (especially now when she could become a SSJ embryo in BOG ) hell, even Gohan got SSJ treatment again in GT and Pan got nothing. I hope we can see more of her in the next DBZ movie, but I'm not really counting on it.

[Nikkolas]

Pan wasn't weak really - even in base I put her at least around Final Form Freeza level. Not sure what % of power or if she's stronger than him but meh. Going with BOG establishing even Buu Saga Base Goku was less than 100% Freeza, that's not bad.

The problem arises with the fact Goku is so stupidly more powerful than everyone else. Pan was just as "weak" as Trunks or Goten or any of the others. They were all equally useless. And when you think about it, that's kinda worse. Trunks can become 50 times stronger and he's still weak. Ouch.

But yeah, I agree we needed an SSJ Pan. Honestly she could stay in the exact same role as in the original GT but as long as she went Super Saiyan, I'd be happy. It was a completely stupid thing they did with not making her Super Saiyan.

Really her GT design is so friggin' good and it really lends itself to SSJ.

[ABED]

What would you call it then? Tough love? Love taps? From the looks of things Giru doesn't see it as out of "love". And I get that it's a cartoon but it's gotta have some basis in reality otherwise the humor is lost and it gives the wrong implications.

How come it needs to have basis in reality for the humor to land? In reality, there's nothing funny about a father choking his child, but it's hilarious on the Simpsons. Most of what Roshi does is reprehensible, but it's a cartoon, and he's not rewarded for his behavior, so it comes off as funny. Well, to most anyway.

Yusuke does a lot of inappropriate things to Keiko, such as looking up her skirt or groping her breasts, but you still found them charming enough to make them your avatar.

[DBZAOTA482]

What would you call it then? Tough love? Love taps? From the looks of things Giru doesn't see it as out of "love". And I get that it's a cartoon but it's gotta have some basis in reality otherwise the humor is lost and it gives the wrong implications.

How come it needs to have basis in reality for the humor to land? In reality, there's nothing funny about a father choking his child, but it's hilarious on the Simpsons. Most of what Roshi does is reprehensible, but it's a cartoon, and he's not rewarded for his behavior, so it comes off as funny. Well, to most anyway.

Yusuke does a lot of inappropriate things to Keiko, such as looking up her skirt or groping her breasts, but you still found them charming enough to make them your avatar.

To be fair, I never found Homer strangling his son all that funny. Maybe because I'm not the hugest fan of The Simpsons to begin with (though the earlier seasons were practically golden) but Bart's a cheeky little shit so he's just asking to get strangled so I don't really mind it that much (it's not like the series doesn't acknowledge it as wrong), and Muten Roshi may be a pervert but the worst thing he does is exist plus like you said, he rarely (if ever) got his way. Pan and Giru is a different story, however. I mean, what did Giru ever to offend her personally? Giru may be annoying but he's been nothing but nice and loyal to her (from what I've seen) when he's not fearing for his life from the enemies or from her yet she treats him like shit, more often than not. Where's the humor in it? Some bitchy girl who takes her anger out on some annoying beta-ass robot, who happens to be her only friend?! It's like watching an immature child torment small animals just for being small animals and said small animal won't or can't defend itself.

BTW I mainly use the avatar because I really like Yu Yu Hakusho (I've been re-watching it recently) and it was the most conventionality available avatar, not because I find their relationship to be particularly charming. Also, a lot of people (mainly males) from the ghetto tend to be rather crass and like Muten Roshi, the series doesn't really brush that aspect of his personality aside.

[goku the krump dancer]

Well Giru WAS a bad guy at first so perhaps some of the "abuse" he got was due to a lack of trust, rather than Pan just taking advantage.

[ABED]

What would you call it then? Tough love? Love taps? From the looks of things Giru doesn't see it as out of "love". And I get that it's a cartoon but it's gotta have some basis in reality otherwise the humor is lost and it gives the wrong implications.

<br abp="712">How come it needs to have basis in reality for the humor to land? In reality, there's nothing funny about a father choking his child, but it's hilarious on the Simpsons. Most of what Roshi does is reprehensible, but it's a cartoon, and he's not rewarded for his behavior, so it comes off as funny. Well, to most anyway.<br abp="713"><br abp="714">Yusuke does a lot of inappropriate things to Keiko, such as looking up her skirt or groping her breasts, but you still found them charming enough to make them your avatar.

<br abp="715">To be fair, I never found Homer strangling his son all that funny. Maybe because I'm not the hugest fan of The Simpsons to begin with (though the earlier seasons were practically golden) but Bart's a cheeky little shit so he's just asking to get strangled so I don't really mind it that much (it's not like the series doesn't acknowledge it as wrong), and Muten Roshi may be a pervert but the worst thing he does is exist plus like you said, he rarely (if ever) got his way. Pan and Giru is a different story, however. I mean, what did Giru ever to offend her personally? Giru may be annoying but he's been nothing but nice and loyal to her (from what I've seen) when he's not fearing for his life from the enemies or from her yet she treats him like shit, more often than not. Where's the humor in it? Some bitchy girl who takes her anger out on some annoying beta-ass robot, who happens to be her only friend?! It's like watching an immature child torment small animals just for being small animals and said small animal won't or can't defend itself.<br abp="716"><br abp="717">BTW I mainly use the avatar because I really like Yu Yu Hakusho (I've been re-watching it recently) and it was the most conventionality available avatar, not because I find their relationship to be particularly charming. Also, a lot of people (mainly males) from the ghetto tend to be rather crass and like Muten Roshi, the series doesn't really brush that aspect of his personality aside.

Fair point regarding Giru being innocent, though she doesn't always "abuse" him. You are taking it WAY too seriously. You brought up the basis in reality but seem to think that because Bart can be a troublemaker, that makes childabuse okay. I know it's not shown to be okay even in the Simpsons, but if it was real life, he'd be behind bars. Muten Roshi may not be rewarded for his lechery, but his actions are brushed aside or laughed off as "Oh, that dirty old man, isn't he funny." Pan isn't shown to be in the right when she smacks Giru, she's usually shown as being a petulant child. Lest we forget, Giru's a robot! I know he's AI, but still a machine, so that takes a bit of the edge off. The sweet moments I'm referring to are such moments like when Giru rescues Pan from dying on the desert planet.

[DBZAOTA482]

Fair point regarding Giru being innocent, though she doesn't always "abuse" him. You are taking it WAY too seriously. You brought up the basis in reality but seem to think that because Bart can be a troublemaker, that makes childabuse okay. I know it's not shown to be okay even in the Simpsons, but if it was real life, he'd be behind bars. Muten Roshi may not be rewarded for his lechery, but his actions are brushed aside or laughed off as "Oh, that dirty old man, isn't he funny." Pan isn't shown to be in the right when she smacks Giru, she's usually shown as being a petulant child. Lest we forget, Giru's a robot! I know he's AI, but still a machine, so that takes a bit of the edge off. The sweet moments I'm referring to are such moments like when Giru rescues Pan from dying on the desert planet.

I'm not. The "abuse" is also a crucial point in the development of their relationship. Why shouldn't I take it seriously?

I never (intentionally) said anything about Homer strangling his son being okay, just pointing out that Bart does do things to genuinely provoke Homer and his strangling (I think) is an exaggeration of how a father would react to a similar situation along with the fact that the show (or the society of Springfield) does acknowledge it as being out of line considering it's gotten him into trouble so I can see why people would find it funny. Pan's mistreatment of Giru is called out in the beginning (twice by Trunks... but then again Trunks is a tool in GT so it doesn't matter), I admit but it's never acknowledged for what it really is - abuse. And no forced "sweet" scene is going to change that for me (honestly I would have left her to be eaten by the sandworm if I were Giru. Her whole presence is a hindrance).

[ABED]

Because it's over the top and cartoony. You should take it as serious as the rivalry between Tom and Jerry or the "abuse" that the 3 Stooges heap on each other.

is an exaggeration of how a father would react to a similar situation along with the fact that the show (or the society of Springfield) does acknowledge it as being out of line considering it's gotten him into trouble so I can see why people would find it funny.

Or it's funny because it's so over the top and cartoony. I can't fathom that you could take the Giru thing as abuse, but can see the choking for what it is.

[DBZAOTA482]

Because it's over the top and cartoony. You should take it as serious as the rivalry between Tom and Jerry or the "abuse" that the 3 Stooges heap on each other.

No. The 3 Stooges and Tom & Jerry are primarily comedies whereas GT is an incoherent mess of plotting that doesn't even know what it wants to be so what you see is what you get. It also worked in those two because of the wit, timing, funny sound effects, and memorial lines (MUCH less in T&J but the few lines there mostly enjoyable). Pan "abusing" Giru is simply there and it's not funny. Just annoying.

Or it's funny because it's so over the top and cartoony. I can't fathom that you could take the Giru thing as abuse, but can see the choking for what it is.

Because Pan yells at Giru for the dumbest reasons (seriously how can she get mad at him for needing fuel?), constantly wails on him if he annoys her in the slightest, and makes verbal threats towards him. Giru is even openly afraid of her. While Homer doesn't have a perfectly good reason for strangling Bart, he at least has an actual reason for it and when he's not strangling his son he does actively try to be a good father even in some of the later seasons whereas Pan rarely has scenes with Giru where she's not doing aforementioned.

[rereboy]

No. The 3 Stooges and Tom & Jerry are primarily comedies

And Pan beating Giru is a comedic moment not meant to be taken seriously, like when Bulma beats Roshi, when Lunch shots up everybody, like when Roshi is full-on perv, etc, etc.

Taking this seriously is incomprehensible.

[ABED]

DBGT is VERY comedic. Even when it gets away from the more gag manga elements, there's a heavy dose of humor. Whether you find it funny is irrelevant.

Giru is even openly afraid of her.

Goku's afraid of his wife.

While Homer doesn't have a perfectly good reason for strangling Bart, he at least has an actual reason for it and when he's not strangling his son he does actively try to be a good father even in some of the later seasons whereas Pan rarely has scenes with Giru where she's not doing aforementioned.

While I don't have a stopwatch so I can't give an exact number, it's not a rarity when Pan is nice to Giru. Homer's reasons for strangling Bart don't matter, it's played completely for laughs. If it's not your sense of humor, fine, but to call Pan's actions "abuse" is dropping context that the show is cartoony and exaggerated.

The "abuse" is also a crucial point in the development of their relationship.

I'd hardly call it crucial, and it was simply plaid for laughs. It wasn't played as a serious rumination on juvenile delinquency and inappropriate touching.

Last, but certainly not least, Giru IS A ROBOT!

[DBZAOTA482]

Goku's afraid of his wife.

Irrelevant.

It's not even the kind of "fear". Giru doesn't feel safe around her, and labels her dangerous.

While I don't have a stopwatch so I can't give an exact number, it's not a rarity when Pan is nice to Giru. Homer's reasons for strangling Bart don't matter, it's played completely for laughs. If it's not your sense of humor, fine, but to call Pan's actions "abuse" is dropping context that the show is cartoony and exaggerated.

Not really. I get it's a cartoon so it has the liberty of being cartoonish and exaggerated but it's just an exaggeration, and Pan's "abuse" of Giru falls into that same boat. Just because Pan's treatment of Giru is often the source of humor doesn't make it less abusive.

I'd hardly call it crucial, and it was simply plaid for laughs. It wasn't played as a serious rumination on juvenile delinquency and inappropriate touching.

Last, but certainly not least, Giru IS A ROBOT!

There are few non-"humor" scenes (going by your definition of humor) where Pan was rather abusive towards him. Pan even says herself that she treats Giru badly.

Giru may be a robot but like you said, him having life-like AI makes him just as much a person as any human being. Even desregarding that one could completely counter-argue that Pan is also a hybrid with Earth-shattering strength.

[ABED]

I didn't define humor. You may not think something's funny, but that's irrelevant as to whether something is meant to be humorous.

Irrelevant.

It's not even the kind of "fear". Giru doesn't feel safe around her, and labels her dangerous.

It's not irrelevant to the matter, Giru didn't label her as such. Both these moments and Goku's "fear" of Chichi are exaggerated moments played completely for laughs. Are you claiming that the writers and directors were trying to show Pan abusing another character? The much more likely scenario is that they were trying to make the scene funny, and you didn't like it. He doesn't even have constant fear around her, just when she has exaggerated fits.

Pan even says herself that she treats Giru badly.

You're taking that out of context. The writers weren't trying to show her as being an abusive character, simply that she felt bad for not being a better friend.

Giru may be a robot but like you said, him having life-like AI makes him just as much a person as any human being.

No it doesn't, he's an artificial being. Pan isn't, she's a human. She's not wiring and 1's and 0's.

You didn't think it was funny, fine, but you drop context all the time, and I have no idea why.

Not really. I get it's a cartoon so it has the liberty of being cartoonish and exaggerated but it's just an exaggeration, and Pan's "abuse" of Giru falls into that same boat. Just because Pan's treatment of Giru is often the source of humor doesn't make it less abusive.

Yes it does, just like Roshi being a lech is played for laughs, we aren't meant to take it seriously. The pattern I see forming here is that you don't like GT so you create another reason to hate on it, but rationalize away the counter-examples as something categorically different because you either don't have the same feelings about them as you do GT or you even enjoy them.

I'm going to try my best to not continue this discussion further. I've replied too often to what I have a hard time comprehending as a serious opinion. Sorry if the last sentence reads terribly, I'm not a good writer.

[Nikkolas]

I only think Super Saiyan lost all worth and prestige when Goten and Kid Trunks did it.

Future Trunks doing it is fine, Vegeta doing iT is fine, Gohan doing iT is fine. They all have not only been training forever, they have been in life-or-death struggles o' plenty. What did Goten and Kid Trunks do? Fucking master SSJ while shitting their diapers? They never did anything. Maybe things came easier to Goku than normal people but he still trained with Roshi and Kami and Korin. Gohan still trained with Piccolo and Goku. Vegeta still went insane and trained like a madman to get SSJ. Mirai Trunks trained with Mirai Goha and had the constant threat of 17 and 18 to motivate him.

[DBZAOTA482]

I didn't define humor. You may not think something's funny, but that's irrelevant as to whether something is meant to be humorous.

You've been saying the whole time that if someone is "cartoonish and exaggerated" it is humor.

It's not irrelevant to the matter, Giru didn't label her as such. Both these moments and Goku's "fear" of Chichi are exaggerated moments played completely for laughs. Are you claiming that the writers and directors were trying to show Pan abusing another character? The much more likely scenario is that they were trying to make the scene funny, and you didn't like it. He doesn't even have constant fear around her, just when she has exaggerated fits.

It is irrelevant to the matter. Just because I don't find Pan's "abuse" of Giru funny doesn't mean I find Goku "fearing" Chi-Chi funny and it's not even the same kind of fear I'm talking about. And yes given how bitchy and annoying Pan generally is in GT I wouldn't exactly put it beneath them to have her abuse another character (and GT's writing isn't exactly the tightest), and Giru has viewed her as dangerous even during moments where Pan was cool.

You're taking that out of context. The writers weren't trying to show her as being an abusive character, simply that she felt bad for not being a better friend.

Not really, I think I know what I'm talking about. She quite literally says that her treatment of Giru is deplorable ("All I ever did was push him around") and regardless if she felt bad for it or not, it's still a rotten attitude to have.

No it doesn't, he's an artificial being. Pan isn't, she's a human. She's not wiring and 1's and 0's.

You didn't think it was funny, fine, but you drop context all the time, and I have no idea why.

That's a pretty cold statement. Giru's not a person in the physical sense but he has a thought process similar to one; being that he actually responds to pain, has emotions, interests, likes/dislikes etc.

Yes it does, just like Roshi being a lech is played for laughs, we aren't meant to take it seriously. The pattern I see forming here is that you don't like GT so you create another reason to hate on it, but rationalize away the counter-examples as something categorically different because you either don't have the same feelings about them as you do GT or you even enjoy them.

I'm going to try my best to not continue this discussion further. I've replied too often to what I have a hard time comprehending as a serious opinion. Sorry if the last sentence reads terribly, I'm not a good writer.

No. I'm just reacting to what I see. For example, I found the moostache bit with Vegeta funny (especially dubbed), and I chuckled at that innuendo with Goten and Palese. I also loved the cameo of Kuwabara. There are actually plenty of things that I like about GT so don't label me as a band-wagon hater. Pan's overall characterization, on the other hand, was one of the things I hated the most about GT (though it wouldn't be so bad if she didn't so much screentime) and her treatment of Giru being one thing that provoked it. Also, I've explained my viewpoints fairly well but you seem to be insistent on forcing your opinion upon me.

I can't believe we're even having a debate about Pan.

[garnetjester]

Pan is a perfectly fine character to debate about... or she would be if GT hadn't sort of ruined her That's actually what really pisses me off about GT. You guys don't know how EXCITED I was as a kid to have a female saiyan around, especially considering how amazing and cute her character was at the end of Z, and then... well, GT happened. I don't even think she was THAT bad, it's just that I wish she would've done more, really, especially after the first saga was over. But then again, GT kind of ruined everybody so I should just deal with it. Goten was always one of my favorite characters and well, he didn't get to do much either.

BTW, it's not like I hate GT completely, I think it was a good piece of animated fanfiction, and it had some great moments here and there, and really, just being able to see my favorite characters interacting for a little longer makes it endearing to me, I just wish it was better overall and didn't neglect so many characters in favor of Goku and Vegeta.

[Saiga]

I only think Super Saiyan lost all worth and prestige when Goten and Kid Trunks did it.

Future Trunks doing it is fine, Vegeta doing iT is fine, Gohan doing iT is fine. They all have not only been training forever, they have been in life-or-death struggles o' plenty. What did Goten and Kid Trunks do? Fucking master SSJ while shitting their diapers? They never did anything. Maybe things came easier to Goku than normal people but he still trained with Roshi and Kami and Karin. Gohan still trained with Piccolo and Goku. Vegeta still went insane and trained like a madman to get SSJ. Mirai Trunks trained with Mirai Goha and had the constant threat of 17 and 18 to motivate him.

Future Trunks was shown to already have it when Gohan started training him in the manga. There's really no reason to think he wouldn't have had it as early as them.

Gohan only got it 1-2 years later than the boys, pretty hard to show the boys as being prodigious if they couldn't even manage that. They fought against each other, and sparring was said to be a very effective training method.

Honestly Gohan probably didn't do a whole lot more training than them. Goku and Vegeta's power ups ended up being far more about zenkai than training, and it's implied that the zenkais brought them closer to Super Saiyan.

And ultimately, it's nowhere near as extreme as every man and his dog immediately doing the Kamehameha that took Roshi 50 years to create. Or simply pulling out new techniques on the spot that are functionally identical/better.

[ABED]

Super Saiyan also required extreme anger, which everyone up to the Buu arc had. What did Goten and Trunks have to be that angry about, Trunks was rich, and it was peace time.

[Kid Buu]

The 23rd Budokai was the arc most guilty of "Goku wank" in my opinion. To me that was one the supporting cast was most redundant. That arc and maybe the Daimao arc too.