Shonen Jump readers vote DB as the...

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Re: Shonen Jump readers vote DB as the...

Post by FortuneSSJ » Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:37 pm

rereboy wrote: Pretty hard to think of a better shonen manga. There are better mangas, but shonen manga? Pretty hard.

And Naruto hardly compares because, even though it was good in its first arcs, it steadily and consistently got worse and worse, even in its art, until it ended. Overall, I don't think it touches One Piece in terms of quality.
I was talking about popularity. Naruto stomps One Piece worldwide. When it comes to quality, Naruto only got bad in the end. That war arc was meh and the ending was just another Digimon 02. But overall its still better.

One Piece is too long. It's more easy to find a bad arc than a good one.
A world without Dragon Ball is just boring.

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Re: Shonen Jump readers vote DB as the...

Post by Doctor. » Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:39 pm

rereboy wrote:One Piece is very different from Dragon Ball. I love them both but I never got the comparison. For one thing, One Piece relies very heavily on tragic storytelling (right in the feelings, man) and that's very unlike Dragon Ball. And the fights are also very different in style.

Toriko is the most similar to Dragon Ball right now, imo.
I didn't compare them. I merely said I usually find more DB fans that are into OP than vice-versa.

And yes, JUMP wise Toriko is the most similar manga you can find to Dragon Ball. Outside of Jump, however, I find Nanatsu no Taizai to be more similar.

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Re: Shonen Jump readers vote DB as the...

Post by Nikkolas » Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:51 pm

Far as I can tell, HunterxHunter appears to be the most quality fighting shoune these days. Which makes sense, it was given to us by the genius responsible for Yu Yu Hakusho, which I've loved ever since I was a kid. (and which holds up considerably better than DB in my opinion)

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Re: Shonen Jump readers vote DB as the...

Post by rereboy » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:12 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:
rereboy wrote: Pretty hard to think of a better shonen manga. There are better mangas, but shonen manga? Pretty hard.

And Naruto hardly compares because, even though it was good in its first arcs, it steadily and consistently got worse and worse, even in its art, until it ended. Overall, I don't think it touches One Piece in terms of quality.
I was talking about popularity. Naruto stomps One Piece worldwide. When it comes to quality, Naruto only got bad in the end. That war arc was meh and the ending was just another Digimon 02. But overall its still better.

One Piece is too long. It's more easy to find a bad arc than a good one.
Naruto sold 75 milion volumes outside of japan and one piece sold 45 milion volumes outside of japan. However, naruto is sold in 35 countries while one piece is sold in 25 countries. So, on average naruto sells around 2.2 milion volumes per foreign country while one piece sells around 1.9 milion volumes per foreign country.

So yeah, naruto sells better outside of japan, but it hardly stomps.

Sources: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/daily-b ... ide/.80771 and http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/20 ... -worldwide

As for the quality of both of them, I stick by what I said.

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Re: Shonen Jump readers vote DB as the...

Post by MarcFBR » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:33 pm

rereboy wrote:Naruto sold 75 milion volumes outside of japan and one piece sold 45 milion volumes outside of japan. However, naruto is sold in 35 countries while one piece is sold in 25 countries. So, on average naruto sells around 2.2 milion volumes per foreign country while one piece sells around 1.9 milion volumes per foreign country.

So yeah, naruto sells better outside of japan, but it hardly stomps.
You've sort of taken base numbers and output the answer you want without adding information to prove it.

As an example, how many of those countries sell both, what's the sales rate country to country, why is one in 10 more countries than the other, etc.

Just jumping and going 'well the average it sells outside Japan per country available' is just plain manipulation of data.

At the end of the day Naruto has sold roughly 60% higher outside of Japan as One Piece has. Playing with the numbers doesn't change that.
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Re: Shonen Jump readers vote DB as the...

Post by Mewzard » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:04 am

To me, placing one single best series in Jump has always been hard (both because due to my English-only language skills some series aren't available, and some are too close for me to call).

Dragon Ball is definitely top 10 material, I can't deny it any less, but man, I'd say it has some fierce competition.

Fist of the North Star was King of Shonen Jump during Dragon Ball's debut, and Dragon Ball only surpassed it in its last year or so. Goku may have known martial arts, but Kenshiro was a master of his, and he knew just when to shed manly tears, and when to kill a foe...and sometimes one right after the other. It had a good mix of badass action, insane violence, and heart-wrenching emotion. It had quite a good run, but even the best of shonens run out of steam eventually (well...most do). It did continue years later under Fist of the Blue Sky, but it left Shueisha by then.

Saint Seiya was the second series to surpass Fist of the North Star's popularity in that last year, and it was a fierce competitor with Dragon Ball during the next several years (the anime's death due to a ratings killing filler bomb is likely responsible for the manga's drop in popularity). Goku seemed like a kitten compared to Seiya's hotblooded nature, and for all the touts of Dragon Ball as an "unbeatable" series in terms of power, Seiya and co surpassed Goku long before the series ended, as teenagers (the series ended before Goku even went SSJ, and they did turning golden and getting a god form first). It's certainly one of the most battle shonen-y battle shonens ever, and I love it for that. It may have ended, but Kurumada never gave up on Saint Seiya. He brought it back as Saint Seiya: Next Dimension in full color in 2006, and it still continues (not counting the various anime and other manga spinoffs).

Jojo's Bizarre Adventure never really made the top of Shonen Jump's popularity, but it was always consistently popular, and outside of Kochikame, you won't find a longer running Shonen Jump manga as it has passed 110 volumes, and shows no sign of ending any time soon. Starting off as a story that almost seemed slice of life before turning into a fantastical battle between ancient martial arts and vampires, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure is easily one of the best things to ever run in Jump. One of the appealing aspects of the series is that it doesn't just stick to one cast forever, but every Part of the story continues with a new cast, new enemies, and even a new story type, all linked to the Joestar Bloodline (and all called Jojo due to their names). Amazing writing, great characters, more copyrighted music names than you can shake a leg at, and powers that over the years are creatively amazing make this series great.

Phantom Blood (Part 1) is the story of the gentleman Jonathan Joestar in the 1800s battling his childhood rival Dio Brando who had become something else due to the Stone Mask. Battle Tendency (Part 2) is the story of Jonathan's grandson Joseph Joestar in the 1930s traveling the globe to deal with the creators of the Stone Mask. Stardust Crusaders (Part 3) is the story of Joseph's grandson Jotaro Kujo in the 1980s, who has to traverse the world in 50 days to end a curse from an old enemy. Diamond is Unbreakable (Part 4) is the story of *spoilers*, Josuke Higashikata, as a series of mysteries have to be solved in his home town of Morioh in 1999. Vento Aureo (Part 5-Golden Wind) is the story of *spoilers*, Giorno Giovanna, whose dreams of becoming a "Gang-star" lead him into a dangerous series of events in Italy circa 2001. Stone Ocean (Part 6) is the story of Jolyne Cujoh, Jotaro Kujo's daughter, who has to survive in Green Dolphin Street Prison after being put in for a crime she didn't commit in 2012. Steel Ball Run (Part 7) is the story of Johnny Joestar in the 1890s, who is involved in a horse race across the United States for a great prize. Jojolion (Part 8) is the story of a man with amnesia who assumes the name Josuke Higashikata in 2011 after the Earthquake in Japan, who seeks his identity in the town of Morioh with some suspicious characters.

For more modern series:

Toriko is easily the best currently running shonen in Weekly Shonen Jump for me. You can tell there's inspiration from Dragon Ball, but its also got its own flare, like something new stepped out from the 80s Jump in the modern era. The world is an interesting one, full of monsters of various degrees of power, and unique environments, yet a world that respects food above all, even wealth. The fights are amazing and I love the characters. You can feel Toriko's passion for food and strong foes in every fight. This manga is literally what Heaven would be for Goku, and in my weekly reads, it almost never fails to be #1. After reading only one chapter at the start of my Weekly Shonen Jump subscription, I had to get volume one. By my birthday a few months later, I got every volume available from Viz, and after that, I read all I could fanwise to close the gap (though I still buy English volumes from Viz). It's a gem, pure and simple (DBZ may have beams down, but this series has raw strength that puts any feat from DBZ to shame).

One-Punch Man may be one of the best drawn series to come from Shueisha. At times, it's basically got all the key animation done for an anime, which leads to some amazing gifs (see below). The plot is amusing, as Saitama wants to be a hero for fun, but (at least at first), he beats all his foes in One-Punch, disheartening the bald youth (who claims he lost his hair in growing stronger). It's hard to say more without spoilers, but it's an interesting read. While in the US SJ, it's not in the Japanese magazine, being instead a digital release...but I like to count it because I read it in Jump. It's a lot of fun too.

https://38.media.tumblr.com/f69c4a8d558 ... o1_500.gif

https://38.media.tumblr.com/b1875b38b93 ... o1_500.gif

https://33.media.tumblr.com/4793fe7dd44 ... o1_500.gif

But yeah, even with these and many more good competitors, Dragon Ball still stands out. It started out as a more comedic adventure shonen with some action, and it changed with the fans, and you grow with Goku, in a way that's less common with most shonens. It's not the best written or drawn series, but Toriyama has a special charm that just makes it work. There's a reason it's one of the most successful shonen series worldwide. He may make up a lot of stuff on the fly, but he always finds a way to make it work.

So a lot of the list is good by me.

Though I hate Naruto with a passion of a thousand Suns, so I could stand it not being there.
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Re: Shonen Jump readers vote DB as the...

Post by Nikkolas » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:34 am

MarcFBR wrote: You've sort of taken base numbers and output the answer you want without adding information to prove it.

As an example, how many of those countries sell both, what's the sales rate country to country, why is one in 10 more countries than the other, etc.

Just jumping and going 'well the average it sells outside Japan per country available' is just plain manipulation of data.

At the end of the day Naruto has sold roughly 60% higher outside of Japan as One Piece has. Playing with the numbers doesn't change that.
And that's not even getting into the anime and stuff. Yes, OP has sold more manga volumes than DB, but nobody ever talks about the fact that, as a franchise, Dragonball craps all over OP in terms of sales. Naruto seems to be the same. The anime is ridiculously popular here in America and easily eclipses OP. And since anime is what people here prefer over manga, I'm sure Naruto's anime revenues from the US are quite impressive.

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Re: Shonen Jump readers vote DB as the...

Post by Attitudefan » Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:25 am

Nikkolas wrote:Far as I can tell, HunterxHunter appears to be the most quality fighting shoune these days. Which makes sense, it was given to us by the genius responsible for Yu Yu Hakusho, which I've loved ever since I was a kid. (and which holds up considerably better than DB in my opinion)
Try Jojo or Fist of the North Star. Amazing anime and manga in terms of fighting. Also looking into Sakigake!! Otokojuku, an anime that parodies the manliness aspect by it being about how to become manly. Super great fights and comedy. It's an oldie but it's pure gold. PUT IT ON YOUR LIST!!

But Dragonball totally deserves top spot. I never could get into One Piece because of 4kids. Maybe someday. I'm still riding on some older series at the moment such as Outlaw Star, Sakigake!! Otokojuku, Fist, Jojo, Rurouni Kenshin and the like.
Last edited by Attitudefan on Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shonen Jump readers vote DB as the...

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:35 am

4Kids' dub doesn't play up the horrible childishness of One Piece that isn't already there to begin with.

As for this list, I don't think Dragon Ball deserves the top spot. It's revolutionary in its lack of over-the-top morality but otherwise still not as well written as other JUMP comics like Rurouni Kenshin, Death Note, Naruto or Eyeshield 21.
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Re: Shonen Jump readers vote DB as the...

Post by Xeogran » Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:06 am

Nikkolas wrote:Besides, no matter how it may have dropped off in recent years, it's already in like the Top 20 (maybe Top 10, I forget) best selling Jump manga of all time. It could sell nothing for the rest of its run and still be doing better than AC.
Hell no. Bleach is only relying on it's nostalgia factor and these times are long gone by now. Everywhere I read receptions of Bleach these days, it's all about "it's not as good as during the Hueco Mundo arc." or "It should have finished at Aizen". The manga is getting good again indeed, but many people have already lost faith and don't want to return.

AC is also getting an anime next year and there is going to be tons of new merchandise produced because of this.

I'm staying by my word that this list means totally nothing.

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Re: Shonen Jump readers vote DB as the...

Post by Nikkolas » Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:27 am

Attitudefan wrote:
Nikkolas wrote:Far as I can tell, HunterxHunter appears to be the most quality fighting shoune these days. Which makes sense, it was given to us by the genius responsible for Yu Yu Hakusho, which I've loved ever since I was a kid. (and which holds up considerably better than DB in my opinion)
Try Jojo or Fist of the North Star. Amazing anime and manga in terms of fighting. Also looking into Sakigake!! Otokojuku, an anime that parodies the manliness aspect by it being about how to become manly. Super great fights and comedy. It's an oldie but it's pure gold. PUT IT ON YOUR LIST!!

But Dragonball totally deserves top spot. I never could get into One Piece because of 4kids. Maybe someday. I'm still riding on some older series at the moment such as Outlaw Star, Sakigake!! Otokojuku, Fist, Jojo, Rurouni Kenshin and the like.
I've asked a guy who swears by JBBA as the godsend of shonen manga and he told me HXH was better in terms of characters, writing and plot than JJBA. JJBA meanwhile takes it in terms of action, fighting scenes, etc.. The most creative and interesting fight scenes ever he swears.

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Re: Shonen Jump readers vote DB as the...

Post by NintendoBlaze53 » Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:48 am

Pretty good list. Dragon Ball will always be a timeless classic. The 80's and 90's love is all over the place. HunterxHunter is higher on my list it has the quality of a monthly manga (Especially the 2011 Anime) Katekyo Hitman REBORN! out of no where, that's one of my fave shonen manga, would be great if viz released the rest in English and if the anime got another season with the next two arcs. The One Piece/Naruto debate over the ocean is always raging. From my experience it mostly comes down to the dub of the Anime. If many newcomers didn't get turned of by the 4Kids dub it would be just as popular as Naruto. Common folk don't even know there is a second dub of One Piece they just say "I didn't like it it was too childish and Naruto is better". Imagine if Naruto got a 4kids dub before Viz then remade it. Would it be as popular as it is now? One is easaliy better than the other just bad reputation in the past is clouding peoples judgement in giving the show a second go.
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Re: Shonen Jump readers vote DB as the...

Post by JackyBoi99 » Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:51 am

I don't like a lot of the placing on that list, Hunter x Hunter, rurouni kenshin, bleach etc below jo jo and slam dunk :think: :yawn:.

However I am glad that dragon ball is in the top 5, it deserves to be.
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Re: Shonen Jump readers vote DB as the...

Post by Saiga » Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:10 am

Nightstar1994 wrote:
Nikkolas wrote:Besides, no matter how it may have dropped off in recent years, it's already in like the Top 20 (maybe Top 10, I forget) best selling Jump manga of all time. It could sell nothing for the rest of its run and still be doing better than AC.
Hell no. Bleach is only relying on it's nostalgia factor and these times are long gone by now. Everywhere I read receptions of Bleach these days, it's all about "it's not as good as during the Hueco Mundo arc." or "It should have finished at Aizen". The manga is getting good again indeed, but many people have already lost faith and don't want to return.
The opinions on people online are not the same thing as the sales it's getting in Japan. Regardless of the way it's treated online, which is rather negative, it still sells quite well in Japan. I hear Western sales are also still strong.
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Re: Shonen Jump readers vote DB as the...

Post by sintzu » Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:10 am

JulieYBM wrote:
As for this list, I don't think Dragon Ball deserves the top spot. It's still not as well written as other JUMP comics like Naruto.
I would understand why if Naruto ended after Pain but after that the story went way down hill especially with who Kishimoto had as the final villain.
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Re: Shonen Jump readers vote DB as the...

Post by Doctor. » Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:07 am

JulieYBM wrote:4Kids' dub doesn't play up the horrible childishness of One Piece that isn't already there to begin with.

As for this list, I don't think Dragon Ball deserves the top spot. It's revolutionary in its lack of over-the-top morality but otherwise still not as well written as other JUMP comics like Rurouni Kenshin, Death Note, Naruto or Eyeshield 21.
It's easily better written than Naruto, of all things.

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Re: Shonen Jump readers vote DB as the...

Post by ImmaDeker » Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:14 am

And calling Death Note well written is a bit of a stretch, too. It's a philosophical comic about debating morality...but written for eight year olds. The fact it's incredibly basic isn't a hurt against it thanks to its demographic, but at the same time just being a bare minimum introduction to morality doesn't really make it any better or worse than any other Jump comic. The difference is more a novelty in the grand scheme of things.

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Re: Shonen Jump readers vote DB as the...

Post by rereboy » Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:17 am

MarcFBR wrote:
rereboy wrote:Naruto sold 75 milion volumes outside of japan and one piece sold 45 milion volumes outside of japan. However, naruto is sold in 35 countries while one piece is sold in 25 countries. So, on average naruto sells around 2.2 milion volumes per foreign country while one piece sells around 1.9 milion volumes per foreign country.

So yeah, naruto sells better outside of japan, but it hardly stomps.
You've sort of taken base numbers and output the answer you want without adding information to prove it.

As an example, how many of those countries sell both, what's the sales rate country to country, why is one in 10 more countries than the other, etc.

Just jumping and going 'well the average it sells outside Japan per country available' is just plain manipulation of data.

At the end of the day Naruto has sold roughly 60% higher outside of Japan as One Piece has. Playing with the numbers doesn't change that.
Actually, my intention was to provide the topic with actual, real and accurate data on the sales of their manga instead of relying on abstract notions like "sells a lot more" and such. If there's not more detailed information in my post, like detailed sales in each individual country and such, is simply because I don't have that information and I doubt its available online where I can find it.

And based on the info that I can find, although its clear that Naruto sells better both on total an on average per country, I simply don't think its on the "stomping" level, which was ALL that I said.

To reach that conclusion, I analyzed not only the total number of sales outside of japan, but also the average number of sales per foreign country because, since Naruto sells to more countries worldwide than One Piece, it would be possible for One Piece to have a better average sales number per foreign country than Naruto or a pretty close one, even if it had a lower total number of sales outside Japan, which, I think, is relevant to determine if Naruto is really "stomping" One Piece outside Japan. However, as I've demonstrated, its not true that Naruto has a lower average. In fact, Naruto has a better sales average per foreign country, and its not very close to the average of One Piece, but it also isn't much higher than One Piece.

All thing considered, like I said, it clear that Naruto sells more than One Piece, and the difference is very significant, but from my analysis of the data, I simply don't consider their difference to be high enough for me to consider it a "stomping". That's all.

Finally, I'm sorry, but accusing me of manipulation of data when I'm offering all the info I have on the subject (when no actual data was offered by anyone else), and even going as far as announcing in percentage how much Naruto has sold more than One Piece outside of Japan like that fact wasn't already clear from the data that I provided the topic with some simple math, is simply not fair at all and kind of insulting even... I'm honestly disappointed in being accused of such by a staff member of this forum based on this post...

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Re: Shonen Jump readers vote DB as the...

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:22 pm

sintzu wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:
As for this list, I don't think Dragon Ball deserves the top spot. It's still not as well written as other JUMP comics like Naruto.
I would understand why if Naruto ended after Pain but after that the story went way down hill especially with who Kishimoto had as the final villain.
It didn't go downhill. It continued down the same path established during the Pain arc and even began to harken back to its mythological roots. The series matured through the themes it tackled without becoming undignified in a false attempt at spreading pacifism. Naruto learned the qualities of being a leader of a people and began to understand just what he would have to tackle if he ever achieved his dream of being the leader of his village. To top it off we got a nice look at the fairy tale-esque origins of chakra and shinobi.

Dragon Ball is fun and has its own qualities but at the end of the day it isn't even lovingly written. It's accidental genius and as a result doesn't have much in the way of a story or conscious development. There are plenty of other titles out there more worthy of critical acclaim. This poll is a glorified popularity contest as it is so I suppose it's my fault for expecting the masses to be even half-way critical in their selection is too much.
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Re: Shonen Jump readers vote DB as the...

Post by rereboy » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:31 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
It didn't go downhill. It continued down the same path established during the Pain arc and even began to harken back to its mythological roots. The series matured through the themes it tackled without becoming undignified in a false attempt at spreading pacifism. Naruto learned the qualities of being a leader of a people and began to understand just what he would have to tackle if he ever achieved his dream of being the leader of his village. To top it off we got a nice look at the fairy tale-esque origins of chakra and shinobi.
To me, its obvious that it went downhill. In fact, it started to go downhill even before then. After the sasuke retrieval arc, only a few moments were actually really good, most of them when things weren't focused on Naruto or Sasuke. The rest was mediocre or bad, with things consistently getting worse over time.

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