Was Android arc Piccolo the weakest among the adult aliens?

[Reading Rainbow]

To the OP, this is my ranking for the beginning of the Android Saga.

Goku
Vegeta
Trunks
Piccolo
Gohan
Krillin
Yamcha

I didn't put Tien here because you said to exclude him. I don't like the idea of Vegeta surpassing Goku because of what trunks says here:

Chapter: 365 (DBZ 171), P9.2-4
Trunks: “I’m going to try training with my father. If it’s really possible to surpass Super Saiyan, then I…[want to try it] too!”
Kuririn: “Well, sure. But I doubt Vegeta will let you work with him.”
Trunks: “I don’t want to train with a father like him either. But I imagine that even he knows that it’s far more efficient to train through sparring than alone.”

Goku had 2 sparring partners to train with in preparation for the Androids while Vegeta had none, but trained very hard also Vegeta had spent two years in the Room of Spirit and Time and didn't surpass Gohan or Goku. I don't think there is a way to confidently say how much weaker Piccolo was than the Super Saiyans, that's largely opinion since there are no solid numbers from Toriyama. I have a theory though that Android 20 is the biggest liar in the whole DB series.

[Hitiro]

You're reaching a bit, I think. If those PLs were intended to be different than what the characters possessed in the manga, the Daizenshuu would have informed the readers of such. As it stands, those were the PLs displayed in the saga--we only saw Freeza utilize 100% power *once*, for example, thus the listed 120m *must* have been what he wielded in the manga. If there is additional info that I am not aware of pertaining to this subject, I welcome it.

I don't think I'm reaching a bit if it says that Goku was 3 million and the guide says the SSJ multiplier is 50x and 150 million would be him without injury. And I don't believe I'm the only one who thinks the battle powers presented are hypothetical's of if Freeza and Goku were uninjured and fresh.

Freeza said that he "took damage" from the Genki Dama, which was evident by his physical appearance afterward. However, it was never stated --by anyone-- that his PL had significantly decreased, which is the point.

Freeza himself practically states his strength had fallen.

Chapter: 317 (DBZ 123), P10.3, P12.1
Context: after getting hit with the Genki-Dama
Freeza: “Ev-even I thought I would die…I, the great Freeza, was pushed to the brink of death…[ ] Even having taken this damage, I can still easily defeat all of you!”

He could have taken a lot of damage because of the Genki Dama and still be able to easily defeat Goku and his gang. So his Battle Power drop could be significant. For all we know Freeza could be running on 15% of his power and he would still mop the floor with Goku and his gang by an extremely wide margin. If Goku was brought to 15% then the SSJ multiplier would put him above Freeza by a couple of million. I honestly don't see what is wrong with this opinion.

Goku barely being able to stand was a figure of speech. Piccolo explicitly noted that Goku was almost completely drained of power before he launched the Genki Dama.

Where did Piccolo say this? It doesn't come up in the Strength Checker. I can see in the manga Piccolo says "What could he do with such little strength left?" I wouldn't say that is completely drained.

Nothing of the sort was stated about Freeza, even though the Z Fighters could undeniably sense his power/ki.

Well. Even 15% of Freeza's power is still going to be amazing compared to 4 characters who are all less than a million in battle power now that their strength has wane due to battle damage.

Imo, the only logical conclusion based on the evidence at hand is that Goku's PL had waned to insignificancy, while Freeza's had stayed around the same.

And you can say this for certain? Do you have evidence to back up this claim? Because I really struggle to understand how Goku can go from nothing back to 100% It makes much more sense that both characters are damaged and Goku's SSJ form made up for the difference. From what I see there is no evidence either way for this. The are both plausible opinions, if you can explain away how Goku got back to full power, so either one could be the case.

So again: Call it a rage boost...Call it a plot-device...Call it whatever you like, but had Goku's base PL been kept as it was(ie. almost nothing), a 50x SSJ increase most definitely would NOT have been enough for him to stomp Freeza. Akira simply did what he *had* to do(ie. ignore/tweak in-story context) in order for the Legendary Super Saiyan to shine. Just my opinion.

If Goku was knocked to around 15% of his Ki and Freeza was knocked down to around that too the SSJ multiplier is going to put Goku on top. And for me it works that he was brought down that low. Gohan lost 50% just by losing one of his arms. Freeza took damage everywhere and was brought to the "brink of death" according to him. But this is just my opinion.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I disagree, though.

Same here. Frankly I can't just put Goku going from nothing back to full just because he got angry or whatever other reason people come up with. I've not seen an example of this in the manga. All the times Gohan has increased in strength he has never not been close to his maximum power in the first place. And he is really the only character, apart from Vegeta in BoG, that has increased his strength through rage.

[Galan007]

Never said that you were the only one with that opinion. However, listing PLs in an official source that we NEVER saw in the manga seems silly and defeats the purpose of a guidebook all together. Why? Because your scenario leaves it up to each individual to come up with their own personal opinion of Goku and Freeza's respective power levels during the arc itself. Why even have a power level entry if it doesn't pertain to what was shown in the manga? Why show a battle-worn 100% Frieza and caption it with "120m", for example, if that wasn't his PL at the time? Surely you can at least see where I'm coming from..?

Freeza said that he "took damage" from the Genki Dama, which was evident by his physical appearance afterward, but was still able to defeat all of the Z fighters easily. However, it was never stated --by anyone-- that his PL had significantly decreased, which is the point. If his PL had dropped significantly, as Goku's had, *someone* would have noted such. The notion that Freeza's PL had decreased by some vast margin, despite the Z Fighters(inc. King Kai) mentioning nothing of the sort, goes against their characterizations as a whole. Again: accurately sensing power/ki is what the Z Fighters(and King Kai) *do*. If a power/ki drops significantly, they openly make note of such. There are literally dozens of examples of this throughout every saga--heck, Goku himself commented on 100% Freeza's significant drop in power toward the end of their battle. /shrug

You honestly think Frieza could have dropped from 50% power to 15% power(a reduction of more than 50%) and we wouldn't have been informed of such? C'mon. :/

In the copy I have readily available(I don't believe it's the Viz translation, though) Goku states: "I lost a lot of energy. The Kaioken x20 emptied me." Piccolo later states: "[Goku] is almost out of power!" I can post the scans in a bit if they're required. Regardless, Goku's significant drop in power was explicitly noted, while nothing of the sort was mentioned about Freeza. This, again, is why I believe his PL stayed relatively consistent. IF it decreased, I don't think it was by some vast percentage, otherwise the Z Fighters surely would have noted such.

I've been citing evidence this entire time.

Again: You honestly think Frieza could have dropped from 50% power to 15% power(a reduction of more than 50%) and we wouldn't have been informed of such? C'mon. :/

Your opinion is obviously set in stone, and that's fine. I still disagree, though. I don't think there's any real evidence to support you, other than an ambiguous line from Freeza. Agreeing to disagree is fine by me at this point.

[Hitiro]

Never said that you were the only one with that opinion. However, listing PLs in an official source that we NEVER saw in the manga seems silly and defeats the purpose of a guidebook all together. Why? Because your scenario leaves it up to each individual to come up with their own personal opinion of Goku and Freeza's respective power levels during the arc itself. Why even have a power level entry if it doesn't pertain to what was shown in the manga? Why show a battle-worn 100% Freeza and caption it with "120m", for example, if that wasn't his PL at the time? Surely you can at least see where I'm coming from..?

Why show battle-worn 100% Freeza and caption it with "120m"? Because that is the only image we have of Freeza at 100%. Simple as. I can see what you mean but at the same time they were re-using sources to do these battle power listings. It's not like they could slap a picture of 100% Freeza without battle damage because there is no image of that. It's the same for a image of SSJ Goku in the Namek arc. All they had was the battle damaged version. If you look at all the other images they all represent their characters in whatever arc they are in and they are all examples of non-battle damaged images unless that is the only image of them at that strength. Like the Kaioken x4 image.

Freeza said that he "took damage" from the Genki Dama, which was evident by his physical appearance afterward, but was still able to defeat all of the Z fighters easily. However, it was never stated --by anyone-- that his PL had significantly decreased, which is the point. If his PL had dropped significantly, as Goku's had, *someone* would have noted such. The notion that Freeza's PL had decreased by some vast margin, despite the Z Fighters(inc. King Kai) mentioning nothing of the sort, goes against their characterizations as a whole. Again: accurately sensing power/ki is what the Z Fighters(and King Kai) *do*. If a power/ki drops significantly, they openly make note of such. There are literally dozens of examples of this throughout every saga--heck, Goku himself commented on 100% Freeza's significant drop in power toward the end of their battle. /shrug

Well Goku and his friends didn't really have the time to go "Oh my Kami! His power has dropped!" in the middle of Freeza slaughtering them. Now could they? And the Kaio was too busy telling the other Z senshi that Freeza lived through the Genki Dama and that he had "killed" Piccolo then that he killed Kuririn. But I honestly don't think them saying his power has dropped is necessary considering it isn't going to make a difference seeing as he is still vastly stronger than them.

You honestly think Freeza could have dropped from 50% power to 15% power(a reduction of more than 50%) and we wouldn't have been informed of such? C'mon. :/

Freeza himself confirms a drop. But it doesn't matter that his battle power dropped. If Goku and his friends are below 1 million and Freeza is only at 15% power Freeza is still 18 million above them. He is 18x stronger than them. I think that falls in the "Even though I'm damaged I can still easily kill you." range.

In the copy I have readily available(I don't believe it's the Viz translation, though) Goku states: "I lost a lot of energy. The Kaioken x20 emptied me." Piccolo later states: "[Goku] is almost out of power!" I can post the scans in a bit if they're required. Regardless, Goku's significant drop in power was explicitly noted, while nothing of the sort was mentioned about Freeza. This, again, is why I believe his PL stayed relatively consistent. IF it decreased, I don't think it was by some vast percentage, otherwise the Z Fighters surely would have noted such.

Well in the Viz translations those sentences are not said like that. Goku states "I am losing strength fast" after the Kaioken. Piccolo states "What can he do with such little strength left?" But that is understandable seeing as Goku had previously been fighting at 30 million with the Kaioken x10 and 60 million when he used the Kaioken x20 in conjunction with the Kamehameha. So his base battle powers are going to be considered as little strength left. Let alone him actually having a fraction of that. If he was at 33% that would be 1 million which I would consider is little strength compared to the 30 million and 60 million he demonstrated. Compared to those 1 million is 3.3% and 1.6%. Who knows? Goku might have 33% of his actual base power(Kaioken's excluded). That would put him at 50 million with the SSJ form. Freeza at 40% would be even with SSJ Goku with SSJ Goku having the slight advantage.

I've been citing evidence this entire time.

Well you haven't actually proven he hasn't dropped in power. I feel both opinions are in the same place. You can say his power hasn't dropped that much. I can say it has. It's not like the manga proves either of us wrong. We know that Freeza's power had dropped. He, himself mentions it but says he can still easily deal with them.

Again: You honestly think Freeza could have dropped from 50% power to 15% power(a reduction of more than 50%) and we wouldn't have been informed of such? C'mon. :/

Well I was thinking more like 20% at the time for Freeza. I used 15% as an example. But Freeza could be at 40% strength for all we know and Goku could still have 33%, AKA 1.6%(KKx20) AKA 3.3%(KKx10).

Your opinion is obviously set in stone, and that's fine. I still disagree, though. I don't think there's any real evidence to support you, other than an ambiguous line from Freeza. Agreeing to disagree is fine by me at this point.

I'm fine to agree to disagree. I didn't say there is any real evidence to support what I said. But it isn't like it's said he only lost a little either. We don't have Kuririn saying "How does he still have so much power!" or anything along those lines. I'm just going off of the fact that Freeza admits he lost strength but can still easily kill them and the fact that damage decreases battle power for everyone we know.

[Galan007]

You are welcome to your opinions.

Though I still disagree, there's no reason for me to respond to each of your points again, as I'd just be repeating the exact same things I've already mentioned(I loath circular debates, lol.) Anyway, agreeing to disagree works.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P13.3
Gohan: “It’s fa-father!!! It’s the same ki as father back then!!”
Note: Gohan says it’s the ‘same ki’ (onaji ki), rather than the ‘same amount of ki’ (onaji gurai no ki).

Not the same as Krillin's quote (which says Jheese and Butta are about equal to Reacoom) on the Ginyu Force, so yeah. I think Gohan's just referring to the feel of Super Saiyan energy. Anyway, all of the Super Saiyans are above Piccolo at this point. Piccolo is quite powerful himself, though.

[Angelus]

I don't think there is a way to confidently say how much weaker Piccolo was than the Super Saiyans, that's largely opinion since there are no solid numbers from Toriyama. I have a theory though that Android 20 is the biggest liar in the whole DB series.

Do you think it would have made a difference if Piccolo was equally as powerful as healthy SSJ Goku was during the Androids saga?

What lies did Android 20 say?

[Reading Rainbow]

I don't think there is a way to confidently say how much weaker Piccolo was than the Super Saiyans, that's largely opinion since there are no solid numbers from Toriyama. I have a theory though that Android 20 is the biggest liar in the whole DB series.

Do you think it would have made a difference if Piccolo was equally as powerful as healthy SSJ Goku was during the Androids saga?

What lies did Android 20 say?

For me, Piccolo being AS strong as SSJ Goku or even nearing that level is too much of a jump, to answer the first question I don't think it would have made a difference if he were as strong as SSJ Goku. If that were the case this statement would make more sense.

Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P14.7
Context: after seeing that Gohan, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Kuririn had followed him
No.20: “If I collect their energy and add it to my own, I’ll be able to win against Vegeta!”

Apparently the collectively power levels of Android 20, Yamcha, Krillin, Gohan, Tien and Piccolo is enough to defeat Vegeta.

Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P13.4-5, P14.1
No.20: “I see…You seem to have achieved a truly considerable power-up. It’s a strange technique…This greatly surpasses our calculated figures…”
No.20: “However, this isn’t anything great enough to give us reason to fear. It’s still within a level which even No.19 is more than capable of defeating, and naturally that goes for myself as well…”

20 says this after Goku goes SSJ. When 19 fights with Goku, even in his sick condition, Goku is able effectively fight 19 for a short time and even has 20 worried.

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.6
No.20: “…Kuh…! Th-this power up greatly exceeds my estimated data…Th-this is bad. Like this, No.19 will run out of energy before he steals any power…”

20 says Goku received a considerable power up and that it greatly surpasses calculated figures/estimated data and that there is no reason to fear, also that 19 is more than capable of defeating him (or in other is stronger than Goku). This is confusing because they can sense ki and also ki SIZE, yet he still says all these things. Even though this is the case there's always a counter-argument, one could say that SSJ Goku had lowered his power level to around what 19's was or even less (based off 19's speed, movements, strength, whatever else) to give the appearance of fighting even, but boosted mid fight to gain the advantage. ADDITIONALLY that small boost mid fight wasn't that much because he was suffering from the heart condition.

[freezamite]

When Gohan likened Trunks' ki to Goku's ki, he was clearly referencing the power he/they produced--accurately sensing power levels is what the Z fighters *do*, after all. Whether you think he was weakened or not, Goku's PL on Namek was canonically 150m. Thus, Trunks' PL when he fought Cold/Freeza was around 150m as well.

I don't think there is a reason to make this any harder than it needs to be. /shrug

While we agree on the fact that whatever the ammount of Ki, Trunks had the same power Goku had in Namek, in my opinion the 150 million number contradicts the manga directly so I disagree on this.

Exactly when have I lied? Can you please point it out?

When I see you using contradictory arguments in order to discuss with me and attack my stance. It's as if you care more about being against what I say than in defending a coherent view of the series (that may differ of my vision of it, of course). Don't worry I'll point a couple of example of this last reply of yours.

Kuririn had no problem flying though. He just couldn't fly well. That isn't saying he wasn't able to fly. Just that he couldn't fly properly.

Of course, flying is something that requires a variable amount of energy. The faster you fly the more ki you need in order to do so, and that's why Krilin is having problems to fly, because he is so exhausted that he barely has the energy to sustain himself in the air and fly at a really slow pace. But the act of flying at a certain pace is not affected. Krilin flies as fast and as accurately as he would fly if despite having recovered all his strength he still decided to use just as much ki as in that scene.

The fact that Goku "dodges" the Kienzan thrown by an enemy that has firstly been damaged by the Genki Dama so he has already lost a chunk of energy, secondly has been confirmed to be steadily losing Ki and thirdly be told that his Kienzan technique is worthless and that Freeza should go and recover stamina and polish his skills to beat Goku isn't really much of a feat and doesn't prove anything really.

This is why I think you aren't being honest. Now you go from "he didn't dodge" to "it doesn't matter if he dodged, Freezer was weakened". It doesn't matter what, everything is valid as long as it contradicts what I'm saying.

Look, think about it more carefully. Freezer took damage from the Genkidama (true) but that was before his fight against Goku SSJ started. So what matters here is that SSJ Goku and Freezer were fighting at an even level until Goku quits due to Freezer's loss of power. But that loss of power was gradual, unlike the change of going from distransforming from SSJ to Base. We also have Gohan saying that Trunks' ki was equal (it was a bit different in type since they latter are able to identify and differentiate it from the rest of SSJ Kis but it was close enough to confuse Gohan) to the one Goku had on Namek, and Trunks stated that he fought with all his strength against Freezer and co.

Now I don't know how much of an increase is the transformation to SSJ for you, but for Goku to react to the attack Freezer launched against him in his base form despite Freezer having lost a bit more of strength (he was still dodging and fighting back against Goku SSJ in the first pages of that chapter) he still was close enough to Goku SSJ to say that "it's not a big deal for base Goku to dodge that attack" only because the Kienzan isn't the fastest attack one can throw. I mean, going by the numbers, even a 4x multiplier for the SSJ transformation would put Goku far enough from Freezer as to become a toy at his hands if he wasn't at full power.

To me that's impossible, and I think that you also think this is impossible but you defend it because you'll do everything to never admit that you may be wrong about something.

There is nothing wrong with my opinion that Goku turned around and the Kienzan just missed.

Look if Goku turns around moving his head to a side and then the Kienzan misses that means that Goku dodged. That's what dodge means, to move when something approaches you before it hits you.
But even if you try to put it as if "Goku only turned himself to Freezer, he didn't dodge and if he hadn't turned nothing would've happened" then I have some bad news regarding that stance. Don't you remember what happened when Freezer used his death beam against Piccolo? Even when he was facing Freezer he couldn't react to the attack at all! And now you're at least admitting that "Goku turned around" which means that he reacted to the Kienzan. And the difference in speed between a Kienzan and a death beam is of course nothing compared to the difference in power if we take your 50x SSJ multiplier as valid.

But we are speaking of the strength Goku has at that moment in base form. Well, considering he can fly without any problem, and that he dodges an attack he shouldn't be able to dodge I think that he not only regained all his strength but also that his base maximum was above what it was before enraging and turning into a SSJ.

And the manga doesn't prove you right any more than it proves me wrong.

In the manga Goku moves his head to a side, proving that he dodges. If you want to turn this into "he moved his head to turn around and he casually put it out of the Kienzan's path" then fine by me, but the fact is that Goku reacts to the kienzan, that the kienzan was fired by someone that was fighting a SSJ in equal terms just a moment ago and that the Ki that this SSJ had while fighting Freezer was comparable to the one Trunks when he fights Mecha Freezer in the earth.

You can try to spin those facts as much as you want saying that Gohan said "the same ki" in front of a much larger ki because he meant "the type" and that he had a reason *put here any imaginable excuse* to not say anything about Trunks much superior strength despite this being the case, or even that Goku didn't react to the Kienzan but to a mosquito that was going to bit him but what's drawn is drawn and that can not be changed.

Goku turned around because he heard something coming, it missing by a hairs-width is perfectly fine for me to believe. I'm sorry you don't think so as well.

So Goku was strong enougth to react at the kienzan. Considering that Piccolo wasn't able to react to the deathbeams (much faster attacks) that means that the difference between Goku and Freezer was lower than the one between Piccolo and Freezer (when Freezer fired the deathbeams). Right? Can you please explain me how this is possible if the SSJ is a 50x increase (or 10x by itself)?

Gohan is talking about the type of Ki here. Size is never considered.

No. Gohan is talking about "the ki", not "the type of ki". He doesn't say anything on the lines of "it's of the same kind but much stronger" and it doesn't have any sense to say that someone has the same ki than anyone else when he is an order of magnitude stronger.
Furthermore, I love this "size is never considered". There's not a single occasion where size isn't considered when analysing a ki in the whole series without saying it explicitly and now suddenly it seems that "the size wasn't included" without anyone saying anything in respect to that. We are at the "Pilaf was a SSJ3 level warrior but he was hidding his strength and nobody never talked about that but whatever" level of argument quality. It's just an ass pull after an ass pull.

I'm not the one who is being aggressive here.

Yeah, you aren't. You're just being arrogant. And I admit that this "I'm the only one who's right and anything that happens in the manga has to be adapted to my theories and not my theories to what happens on the manga" attitude of yours gets on my nerves.

You are the one who is constantly saying I'm lying or I'm contradicting my opinion left-right and centre when I'm not.

You aren't? We've gone from "Goku didn't react to the kienzan" to "Goku may have heard something but the Kienzan failed" to "It's completely normal for base Goku to dodge that kienzan since Freezer was to weakened at that point". Or it's not such a big deal or it was pure luck he survived, but not the two at the same time. It's obvious that you're putting excuses (ass pulls) as a patch to your theories but in the process you fail to draw a coherent global vision of the manga which is the proof that even you don't really believe what you're saying (you're just trolling).

Why? Because you say he dodged the Kienzan? Even assuming he did and you are right about him regaining his strength. Can you prove to me that he regained all of it?

Because then when he is healed (earth) we see him at around Trunks' level and Trunks was at around Goku's level in Namek. Do you want another proof? The feat of dodging an attack that even his old self shouldn't be able to dodge considering the strength the one who fired the kienzan had.
To me that's enough. I mean, it's not as if you had any proof that he didn't regain all his power...

Can you prove that it wasn't the coupled fact that Freeza's Ki had taken a huge hit and now that he was using 100% his Ki was steadily dropping allowing Base Goku > Freeza?

Are we speaking of the Freezer that was still fighting SSJ Goku just a few pages ago? Yes, his Ki was steadily dropping, but Goku's ki suddenly dropped from SSJ to base (which is a much bigger drop, and a sudden one) and Freezer firing the Kienzan was just a few seconds after Goku quit the fight.
Can you prove that Gohan was for the first and last time in the series speaking about "type of ki" and ignoring the size when he said "it's the same ki"? No, well you'll say "it must be because Trunks was much stronger than Goku in Namek" but that's not a proof that's your theory/dreams/trolling about the subject...

I still believe that it missed because Freeza's Ki had tanked so he didn't have as much Ki control as he thought he did.

So you're saying that Freezer missed because of his lack of ki, but then after that those kienzans are fired with a "remote control" ability that allows them to track Goku's position exactly based on the control Freezer had on them.
I mean, this is so bad as an excuse as it can be. According to you Freezer was gradually losing his Ki due to him being at his 100%. Then he reaches a point in that he has lost so much of his strength that he can't even fire a kienzan accurately and after that it magically happens that while still losing strength Freezer gains an ultra-accurate control of the kienzan that allows him to pursue SSJ Goku with them to a certain degree... XD

It's plainly obvious that you're trolling here, or trolling or just putting absurd excuses to avoid admitting being wrong.

Again, this quote has nothing to do with Ki size.

Yes, that's what I wanted you to say. If you say that this quote has nothing to do with Ki size then you have to prove it. Because if you speak of something without specifying what attribute you're referring to then you're speaking of it in general terms. I mean, maybe you would say something like "this car is so fast!" in front of an average car whose windows open and close in an abnormally fast speed, but the rest of the human race will understand that what you're saying is that the car moves fast and not the windows.

Hell, if two things are equal in one aspect but clearly different in the rest of their attributes and you say "A and B are the same" then you have some serious problems regarding oral expression.

Now unless you point me a dialogue with Gohan specifically saying that it was the type and not the size, what you've done is an ass pull to justify your trolling.

Why can't it just by type?

Because he is speaking of "ki" in general terms. I mean, if you say something on the lines of "Bruce Willis is nearly identical to Pau Gasol" then I'm sorry but the majority of people will ask you to check your eyes. On the other hand if you say "Bruce Willis skin is of a nearly identical colour of that of Pau Gasol" then your right.
It's a matter of reading comprehension which is obvious that you lack or in case of not lacking then a proof that you're troling. As easy as that.

Trunks says that he could fight them fairly well. But Trunks never says they had the same strength he has.

Ok, and considering that the androids had infinite energy then explain me how Trunks was able to "fight them fairly well" if he didn't have at least "a similar amount of strength" than them. I mean, if you're saying they didn't have "the exact amount" of strength down to the unit then that's right but I don't think anyone will ever say this...

So this really doesn't explain why if Goku is as strong as Trunks that it would give Trunks hope. Because Goku would still not be strong enough to take out an Android from Trunks timeline.

Firstly, you're not taking into account that Trunks may have lied a bit regarding the android's strength in order to entice Goku to train harder and to secure the victory. Trunks also came here saying that he wanted to change save his future to latter admit that whatever was done in the present wouldn't affect his timeline and that he just wanted to learn something and to see a future without the androids.

I mean, Trunks travels through the time to warn Goku & co about a menace that can destroy the world and that has ruined his future and he finds that Goku is already (3 years prior to the androids appearance) at the Androids levels. Don't forget that Trunks had the intention of coming back from the future to help fight the androids, so if Trunks could fight the androids fairly well and then he learns about Goku who was as strong as him and had 3 years to prepare for the fight then I think that it's completely understandable for Trunks to be happy to find that Goku is as strong as it is and also to lie a bit about the strength of the androids in order to entice Goku to train himself even more.
Trunks wasn't like Goku that prioritized fights above anything, Trunks prioritized the earth safety and success above all and it's obvious that in order to prepare the z-warriors for the fight something like "those androids are so terrible I couldn't even fight one of them and you know we are really close in terms of strength" is much better than "wow Goku you're already at the androids' level of strength! If we combine our strength 3 years into the future we may be able to win! Have a good time with your family and don't worry because in 3 years we will fix everything!".

Things have to be contextualized. Who says what, why and when, that's what matters. This is why Trunks described the androids the way he did the first time we see him and why he tells a different story after the present androids were awakened, because "the androids being too strong" was useful when the objective was to entice Goku & co to train, but once the situation comes to a point where this lie has no sense and what's most important for earth's survival is that "those androids of your timeline are certainly stronger than the ones in my timeline so more things could've changed" then he tells the true and give Goku & co the information (because present androids being stronger than past androids is of course important in the sense that more things could've changed).

Freeza said that he "took damage" from the Genki Dama, which was evident by his physical appearance afterward. However, it was never stated --by anyone-- that his PL had significantly decreased, which is the point.

The more damage you take the more strength you lose. And while Freezer had to be badly injured in order to make SSJ Goku win Freezer doesn't say "now I don't have even a fraction of my strength" because that would be anti-climatic. What he does say is "if I get stuck into the planet's explosion I'll lose even more strength" which already implies that he has lost strength before that.
This and of course that line of his saying "despite how hurt I am I'll still be able to kill you" which clearly implies that the damage affected him (and he took a lot of damage).

[Angelus]

Context: after seeing that Gohan, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Kuririn had followed him
No.20: “If I collect their energy and add it to my own, I’ll be able to win against Vegeta!”

Apparently the collectively power levels of Android 20, Yamcha, Krillin, Gohan, Tenshinhan and Piccolo is enough to defeat Vegeta.

Perfect!! I myself can set an estimate for Piccolo then. If what Android 20's statement was actually true, then that would maybe make Piccolo maybe half as powerful as SSJ Vegeta. The humans are fodder in power. Gohan is probably less than 1/4th of a SSJ's power a this point. So yeah, maybe Piccolo is half? Since 20 would need more than Vegeta's power to beat him. Assuming 20 is half, Piccolo is the other half, which should equal to Vegeta, the other humans plus Gohan's considerable power, would overcome Vegeta. Like the humans + Gohan would be what he would need to surpass Vegeta's power. But maybe Piccolo + 20's is enough to be equal with Vegeta's. What do you think?

[dbgtFO]

It all seemed like a huge assumption on Dr. Gero's part rather than him actually bothering to check their powers and comparing it to Vegeta's.
The energy Piccolo contributed was a fraction of his real power, which didn't even make Dr. Gero stronger than Piccolo afterall.

[Hitiro]

Kuririn had no problem flying though. He just couldn't fly well. That isn't saying he wasn't able to fly. Just that he couldn't fly properly.

Of course, flying is something that requires a variable amount of energy. The faster you fly the more ki you need in order to do so, and that's why Krilin is having problems to fly, because he is so exhausted that he barely has the energy to sustain himself in the air and fly at a really slow pace. But the act of flying at a certain pace is not affected. Krilin flies as fast and as accurately as he would fly if despite having recovered all his strength he still decided to use just as much ki as in that scene.

The characters have been flying with Ki below 100 in several scenes. This scene only proves the point that Ki usage throughout the manga varies and that Ki usage can effect the state of an ability. Kuririn states he finds it hard to fly because of a decrease in his Ki yet there are several examples in the manga where there are characters with probably less Ki than his having no difficulty flying. Goku against Piccolo in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai is a prime example. So there is nothing wrong with this. It just shows that he had to compensate for the drop in Ki like I feel Freeza did when he missed with the Kienzan the first time.

The fact that Goku "dodges" the Kienzan thrown by an enemy that has firstly been damaged by the Genki Dama so he has already lost a chunk of energy, secondly has been confirmed to be steadily losing Ki and thirdly be told that his Kienzan technique is worthless and that Freeza should go and recover stamina and polish his skills to beat Goku isn't really much of a feat and doesn't prove anything really.

This is why I think you aren't being honest. Now you go from "he didn't dodge" to "it doesn't matter if he dodged, Freezer was weakened". It doesn't matter what, everything is valid as long as it contradicts what I'm saying.

You clearly don't understand my writing in this format. I put the speech marks around the word because it was the word in contention here. I am still talking about him not dodging in this piece of text. So no I'm not changing my opinion here just to contradict what you say. I'm saying that if Goku turns around and the Kienzan misses him isn't much of a feat considering Freeza couldn't attack correctly straight away because of his diminishing Ki.

Look, think about it more carefully. Freezer took damage from the Genkidama (true) but that was before his fight against Goku SSJ started. So what matters here is that SSJ Goku and Freezer were fighting at an even level until Goku quits due to Freezer's loss of power. But that loss of power was gradual, unlike the change of going from distransforming from SSJ to Base. We also have Gohan saying that Trunks' ki was equal (it was a bit different in type since they latter are able to identify and differentiate it from the rest of SSJ Kis but it was close enough to confuse Gohan) to the one Goku had on Namek, and Trunks stated that he fought with all his strength against Freezer and co.

At the end of the fight with Freeza and Goku they were not even at all. While they started off even, in fact Freeza was doing better than him at the start, it quickly changed to Goku beating him down. Also, how do you know the power drop was gradual? Goku said his power was steadily dropping. That only tells us it's a fixed rate. If he is losing 1 million battle power each second then Freeza would quickly be around Goku's level after 50 seconds if Goku is only fighting with a battle power of 1 million. You keep saying Trunks' Ki was equal to Goku's but it never says in what way. For all we know its just type because if Goku was fighting with only a fraction of his power on Namek then it would be understandable that Gohan is just talking about type without regard for Ki size due to him knowing Goku was injured on Namek.

Now I don't know how much of an increase is the transformation to SSJ for you, but for Goku to react to the attack Freezer launched against him in his base form despite Freezer having lost a bit more of strength (he was still dodging and fighting back against Goku SSJ in the first pages of that chapter) he still was close enough to Goku SSJ to say that "it's not a big deal for base Goku to dodge that attack" only because the Kienzan isn't the fastest attack one can throw. I mean, going by the numbers, even a 4x multiplier for the SSJ transformation would put Goku far enough from Freezer as to become a toy at his hands if he wasn't at full power.

Goku takes him down easily before he reverts. He isn't dodging at the end when Goku decides that he is going to quit. We even get Goku telling us that he isn't a challenge any more. We also don't know the rate at which Freeza is losing energy. Considering Freeza went from being even with Goku to quickly being dominated the power drop is substantial and it is still steadily dropping off. Going by a 4x multiplier if that is what you want it would take literally 4 seconds if Freeza's energy was decreasing by 1 million each time.

To me that's impossible, and I think that you also think this is impossible but you defend it because you'll do everything to never admit that you may be wrong about something.

To me it isn't impossible and I have said several times across all of my posts both in this thread and in other threads that I could be wrong. It is only an opinion. So you need open your eyes and read because I have pointed it out that there is no evidence for or against my opinions so my opinion could be just as likely right as it could be wrong. As with your own opinion. But you're the one attacking people saying that they must be wrong. So I honestly think it's you who has the problem in admitting they could be wrong about something.

There is nothing wrong with my opinion that Goku turned around and the Kienzan just missed.

Look if Goku turns around moving his head to a side and then the Kienzan misses that means that Goku dodged. That's what dodge means, to move when something approaches you before it hits you.
But even if you try to put it as if "Goku only turned himself to Freezer, he didn't dodge and if he hadn't turned nothing would've happened" then I have some bad news regarding that stance. Don't you remember what happened when Freezer used his death beam against Piccolo? Even when he was facing Freezer he couldn't react to the attack at all! And now you're at least admitting that "Goku turned around" which means that he reacted to the Kienzan. And the difference in speed between a Kienzan and a death beam is of course nothing compared to the difference in power if we take your 50x SSJ multiplier as valid.

No. That means that Goku heard something he turned around and Freeza missed his mark. Because Freeza unleashed a homing Kienzan. If it was in contention that Goku had dodged why didn't Freeza just turn the blade and cut base Goku in half if their abilities were so far apart because Goku wasn't in SSJ? "Dodging" isn't going to help if Freeza had proper control over the Kienzan which I still think he didn't. Otherwise if Goku had just turned around or dodged he would have been dead before he could turn into a SSJ as Freeza would have just corrected the path of the Kienzan. I also never said that Goku didn't turn around that is why the blade missed him because Freeza threw it aiming for him from behind. He would naturally be in a different position when he turned. There is also the fact that he had stopped flying away when he turned. When you throw something you throw ahead of where the object/person is going to be because it is a moving target. But Goku heard the Kienzan stopped and turned to see what was happening. Thus it brushing past him. You realise distance is an important variable to factor in when we talk about speed. Right? If the Kienzan was travelling at the 1,000 m/s, for example, Goku could still avoid the Kienzan with 10% or even 1% of the speed the Kienzan was travelling. Because you factor into account the distance between the Kienzan and Goku and then you factor in how much side-ways Goku would have to move to avoid the attack plus whether Freeza had thrown the blade with an offeset to hit a moving target.

100 metres between Goku and the Kienzan will make the Kienzan reach him in 0.1 of a second.
Goku needs to move 1 metre and his speed is 10 metres/s so it would take him 0.1 of a second.

Therefore Goku even if he is 100 times slower than the Kienzan he would still be able to turn around in time for it to brush past him.

But we are speaking of the strength Goku has at that moment in base form. Well, considering he can fly without any problem, and that he dodges an attack he shouldn't be able to dodge I think that he not only regained all his strength but also that his base maximum was above what it was before enraging and turning into a SSJ.

I just stated above how Goku could avoid something that was 100x faster than himself so that shows that he can still do stuff without being at maximum. Nothing says in the manga Goku couldn't still fly either. He never asks Kuririn or Gohan for help getting back to the ship. Goku even flew when Piccolo left a gaping hole in his chest and was near deaths door. So that has nothing to do with him being at maximum or not. Kuririn and Gohan could still fly with a fraction of their Ki and there is nothing to say that Goku had lost all his Ki. The only comments we get is that his Ki shrank. By how much we don't know and another from Piccolo questioning what Goku could do with such little Ki. But we don't even understand what Piccolo considers little Ki because up until this point Goku was fighting with 30 million and then 60 million so a Ki of 1 million would be considered little in comparison what Goku had previously shown us. But this is all subjective like the points you pose. Because we never get points proving either opinion.

And the manga doesn't prove you right any more than it proves me wrong.

In the manga Goku moves his head to a side, proving that he dodges. If you want to turn this into "he moved his head to turn around and he casually put it out of the Kienzan's path" then fine by me, but the fact is that Goku reacts to the kienzan, that the kienzan was fired by someone that was fighting a SSJ in equal terms just a moment ago and that the Ki that this SSJ had while fighting Freezer was comparable to the one Trunks when he fights Mecha Freezer in the earth.

In the manga Goku is still turning around and his head was already in that position as he turned. He didn't move his head at all in my opinion. And again. Freeza is not fighting a SSJ on equal terms at the end. He just gets beaten down by SSJ Goku before Goku decides to end it. His power had vastly dropped and was still steadily dropping. They were originally going at it blow per blow with Freeza having the slight advantage but the power drop quickly turned it around so that it was Goku's advantage. You are saying its comparable to Trunks' Ki in size. But the manga doesn't say that. It doesn't say it is and it doesn't say it isn't. So this is not a fact. Just a subjective point that in your opinion means that they are both equal.

You can try to spin those facts as much as you want saying that Gohan said "the same ki" in front of a much larger ki because he meant "the type" and that he had a reason *put here any imaginable excuse* to not say anything about Trunks much superior strength despite this being the case, or even that Goku didn't react to the Kienzan but to a mosquito that was going to bit him but what's drawn is drawn and that can not be changed.

What you provided aren't facts just subjective points that you have put your opinion. Like I have. Gohan not talking about Ki size is understandable because Goku was injured on Namek so he wasn't outputting his full potential. What Gohan was sensing now was "possibly" Goku at his full potential as a SSJ. Gohan has only ever sensed one SSJ ki type and believes that this could only be his dad because him and Vegeta are the only other Saiyan's. Gohan doesn't need to say anything about its strength.

Goku turned around because he heard something coming, it missing by a hairs-width is perfectly fine for me to believe. I'm sorry you don't think so as well.

So Goku was strong enougth to react at the kienzan. Considering that Piccolo wasn't able to react to the deathbeams (much faster attacks) that means that the difference between Goku and Freezer was lower than the one between Piccolo and Freezer (when Freezer fired the deathbeams). Right? Can you please explain me how this is possible if the SSJ is a 50x increase (or 10x by itself)?

Your comparing Kienzans of a weakened Freeza, which is confirmed by Goku because Goku says Freeza's Ki is steadily dropping. To another attack with different properties and stats. So you can't really use this. A deathbeam for all we know is 2x faster than a Kienzan. I wouldn't say Yamcha's Sokidan has the same speed as Piccolo's Makankosappo if they were at the same level. Kuririn's slow Kamehameha that splits into multiple shows that attack speeds are relative to the attack themselves. So I find it easy to explain why with 2 reasons.

1. Freeza's Ki was tanking. So his attacks won't be as fast as usual.
2. The Kienzan could be slower than his Deathbeam.

Gohan is talking about the type of Ki here. Size is never considered.

No. Gohan is talking about "the ki", not "the type of ki". He doesn't say anything on the lines of "it's of the same kind but much stronger" and it doesn't have any sense to say that someone has the same ki than anyone else when he is an order of magnitude stronger.
Furthermore, I love this "size is never considered". There's not a single occasion where size isn't considered when analysing a ki in the whole series without saying it explicitly and now suddenly it seems that "the size wasn't included" without anyone saying anything in respect to that. We are at the "Pilaf was a SSJ3 level warrior but he was hidding his strength and nobody never talked about that but whatever" level of argument quality. It's just an ass pull after an ass pull.

Gohan doesn't need to say it is much stronger if he thinks this is what Goku's Ki is like without injury so it does make sense. If Goku was at 100% on Namek and his battle power was only 10 million as a SSJ but Trunks shows up and is 150 million then Gohan is going to question how Goku got so strong between Namek and now.

Yeah, you aren't. You're just being arrogant. And I admit that this "I'm the only one who's right and anything that happens in the manga has to be adapted to my theories and not my theories to what happens on the manga" attitude of yours gets on my nerves.

I have said I could be wrong several times. It is only an opinion after all. Not facts. You are the one turning things into facts that are not even facts. Just subjective points you think you must be right on. Like "Goku can fly now so his power must have increased." No where in the manga does Goku say he can't fly. You are just making the assumption he can't because his Ki is lower. We don't even know how much Ki he has left. You're the one making assumptions on a lot of things and making them facts. I have already said that everything I have talked about is my opinion and based on what I think has happened in the manga. Like Goku could have 33% of his Ki left. Because we don't know how low Piccolo is considering low. Low in what regard? In comparison to his KKx10? In regard to his KKx20? Is 33% what Piccolo would consider little? This is all subjective and you or I can see it differently. It doesn't make us right or wrong. But again. I'm not the person turning things like "Trunks Ki must be the same amount as Goku's on Namek" because Gohan never comments on Goku's strength. Just because Gohan doesn't comment on his strength doesn't automatically make you right. It turns the point into a subjective point that can either be interpreted as Trunks Ki is the same amount and type as Goku's on Namek or Trunks Ki type is the same as Goku's on Namek. There is no right or wrong answer here unless we get told by the characters. Which we don't. So my opinion is just as valid as yours is.

You aren't? We've gone from "Goku didn't react to the kienzan" to "Goku may have heard something but the Kienzan failed" to "It's completely normal for base Goku to dodge that kienzan since Freezer was to weakened at that point". Or it's not such a big deal or it was pure luck he survived, but not the two at the same time. It's obvious that you're putting excuses (ass pulls) as a patch to your theories but in the process you fail to draw a coherent global vision of the manga which is the proof that even you don't really believe what you're saying (you're just trolling).

I never said that Goku didn't react to the Kienzan. It is you who said that I said that. If you look through my posts you will see that I never said such a thing I have always says Goku heard something, turned around and the Kienzan missed. I ask you to show me where I said he didn't react. Because I've even looked through my posts and I never said this. You just keep pinning things on me like this and telling me that I keep "lying" or "changing my opinion to not be wrong." My opinion hasn't change from the first post I responded to you in. And frankly I find it disgusting that you keep saying I am lying when it is you who is making up this stuff I'm "supposedly" saying. I've had to correct you several times now about things like this.

Look, it's a bit weird how you now insist on the fact that Goku was injured (it took me months of discussion with you to make you admit that injured fighters lose strength, but at least this means we are making some progress) but what can't be denied is that Goku has more power in chapter 325 than he had in chapter 317.

This was the last comment I had of you accusing me of something I never even said. I had always considered injury to effect the persons strength. And then you tell me you stand corrected. So I would really appreciate it if you would check up on these things before you call me a liar. Because it seems like you are the liar here. Making up random things about what I said and then telling me that I lied because the things you made up were the things I said. In fact I'm thinking I'm not going to even bother responding after this post because I feel it is you who is the troll. I have tried to be civil but every time I make my point you either make up lies about me lying or say that I will never admit that I could be wrong when I have said several times that my opinion could be wrong.

I honestly don't see why you even come to these forums if you're only going to accuse someone of having a differing opinion than you of lying or not being willing to admit their wrong. And excessively attack them for their differing opinion with aggressive tones and condescending text because you can't just agree to disagree.

Because then when he is healed (earth) we see him at around Trunks' level and Trunks was at around Goku's level in Namek.

Where is the proof? They are both suppressed and not giving it all they had. How do you know Goku isn't more suppressed than Trunks? How do you know Trunks isn't more suppressed than Goku? The only way you can say they are both around the same level is if they were both fighting with all they had. There is no dialogue from anybody to say they are even so I can say that Trunks is weaker than Goku and there is nothing to disprove that fact. Trunks even says that having seen Goku's strength he has hope that the Androids would be destroyed. If Goku wasn't stronger than him I don't even see why he would say this because Trunks certainly can't beat the Androids as I pointed out to you earlier. All Trunks said about Androids is he can fight them fairly well but even one-on-one he can barely make it out alive.

Do you want another proof? The feat of dodging an attack that even his old self shouldn't be able to dodge considering the strength the one who fired the kienzan had.
To me that's enough. I mean, it's not as if you had any proof that he didn't regain all his power...

Assuming Goku did dodge the Kienzan. Can you prove that Goku couldn't dodge the Kienzan before injury? This is entirely subjective. At this point Freeza's Ki is dropping steadily and in my opinion it is dropping fast as with the fight between him and Goku, he had the advantage then as time went on the fight became even and then finally it ended up that Goku handed his ass to him. So from this I can gather Freeza's Ki was tanking fast considering this was a span of a couple of minutes to seconds. Nothing disagrees with my opinion. Nothing says that Freeza's Ki was dropping slowly. You can be of the opinion that Freeza's Ki was dropping slowly which is entirely up to you. But from what I saw of the fight Freeza's strength had dropped so much by the end that Goku was beating him down. I could say the same for you really about proof. It's not like you have any proof he didn't remain at his injured strength. As I pointed out further above in this discussion a character who is 100x slower than an attack can still avoid the attack. That doesn't mean that I am right and you are wrong. Goku could have regained all his power but there is as much proof for that as it is for Goku to not have regained all his power. So my opinion is as valid as yours.

Are we speaking of the Freezer that was still fighting SSJ Goku just a few pages ago? Yes, his Ki was steadily dropping, but Goku's ki suddenly dropped from SSJ to base (which is a much bigger drop, and a sudden one) and Freezer firing the Kienzan was just a few seconds after Goku quit the fight.

How do you know how fast Freeza's Ki is dropping? Because Freeza went from fighting on par with SSJ Goku to having his ass handed to him fairly quickly. Can you prove that his Ki didn't drop a substantial amount between Goku reverting and telling him why he was quitting to flying away? In the Viz translation of the Manga Goku says that Freeza's Ki is dropping fast. In the Japanese version he only says it's steadily dropping. But steadily dropping can mean fast or slow as long as it is a consistent drop in power. Such as 1 million per second would be an example of it steadily falling.

Can you prove that Gohan was for the first and last time in the series speaking about "type of ki" and ignoring the size when he said "it's the same ki"? No, well you'll say "it must be because Trunks was much stronger than Goku in Namek" but that's not a proof that's your theory/dreams/trolling about the subject...

I can't prove that Gohan is talking just about "type of Ki" anymore than you can say he isn't. Just because Gohan says "its' the same Ki" doesn't mean he that he isn't just talking about type. And me saying Trunks is stronger than injured Goku on Namek is just my opinion. It lines up with Gohan just talking about "type of Ki" when he says "it's the same Ki" but I'm not using it as proof. Because it's just an opinion. Just like you can't say that Trunks is the same strength as Goku was on Namek because that that is just your opinion. You can make assumptions but nothing in the manga proves it unless we have a character telling us directly that they have the same amount of Ki. Which we don't.

So you're saying that Freezer missed because of his lack of ki, but then after that those kienzans are fired with a "remote control" ability that allows them to track Goku's position exactly based on the control Freezer had on them.
I mean, this is so bad as an excuse as it can be. According to you Freezer was gradually losing his Ki due to him being at his 100%. Then he reaches a point in that he has lost so much of his strength that he can't even fire a kienzan accurately and after that it magically happens that while still losing strength Freezer gains an ultra-accurate control of the kienzan that allows him to pursue SSJ Goku with them to a certain degree... XD

Freeza didn't judge his Ki control very well once he attacked Goku the first time. He had to adjust due to the way his Ki was. Like how Kuririn and Gohan had to adjust their flying due to the Ki they had lost. If Freeza could control the Kienzan as well as he did after Goku turned SSJ. What stopped Freeza from lobbing of Goku's head when it brushed past Goku's face? All he had to do is curve the Kienzan and it would have taken at least half of Goku's head off. But no. That doesn't happen. It's my opinion but makes sense otherwise I don't see why Freeza, who you say had "ultra-accurate control", would miss the first time. Even if Goku dodged.

It's plainly obvious that you're trolling here, or trolling or just putting absurd excuses to avoid admitting being wrong.

Believe that if you want but I don't really care if you think that. You come across as extremely rude and a generally negative person to me. I have tried to be civil yet you toss things at me like I'm a liar even though I have shown you that I'm not. Yet you still make up things I've said. Like me apparently saying Goku didn't react to the Kienzan. It was clear he turned around because he heard something. And you can check these posts to see I never said he didn't react. You were the one who said that I said that. And then pretend I did say it and I "lied."

Yes, that's what I wanted you to say. If you say that this quote has nothing to do with Ki size then you have to prove it. Because if you speak of something without specifying what attribute you're referring to then you're speaking of it in general terms. I mean, maybe you would say something like "this car is so fast!" in front of an average car whose windows open and close in an abnormally fast speed, but the rest of the human race will understand that what you're saying is that the car moves fast and not the windows.

If this is to do with Ki size then please prove it. I have said this is subjective. The manga doesn't say anything about Ki size. You choose to say that the absence of any proof on my side proves you are correct. But the absence of proof on your side also proves you are correct? Where is the logic in that? The only reason this point is in contention is because we have differing opinions of Goku's strength on Namek. And the only way to prove that this statement isn't about Ki size is to prove whether Goku regained his strength on Namek or not. So as far as I'm concerned both of us have this problem. Not just me. You will probably just say that I must be wrong because Gohan doesn't say Trunks is stronger than Goku. But lack of evidence isn't evidence. Just like the fact that Ki size is never mentioned doesn't mean it is evidence against you. It makes the point subjective and in my opinion Ki size isn't mentioned because Gohan is referring to the type of Ki. Whether that is true or not is up to whether the story can prove it but it can prove neither of our statements.

Yet just because it can't prove either of our statements I must automatically be wrong. Correct? Because it seems like you deem it so. You keep asking me to prove that my point is correct and we are both in the same position.

Hell, if two things are equal in one aspect but clearly different in the rest of their attributes and you say "A and B are the same" then you have some serious problems regarding oral expression.

No. Just because they are equal in on aspect but different in another just means they are equal in one aspect. There is no contention that at least one aspect is the same here otherwise Gohan wouldn't have brought it up. But Gohan doesn't say both the type aspect and the size aspect are the same. We just get a vague comment that they are the same. This could either mean type or both type and size. Just because he doesn't say Trunks is stronger doesn't mean it couldn't be true. Just like just because he doesn't say Goku is stronger doesn't mean it isn't true. You choose to say I'm wrong solely based on something that isn't said. But to me, Gohan not comparing the strengths is just because Gohan knew Goku wasn't at full strength on Namek.

Now unless you point me a dialogue with Gohan specifically saying that it was the type and not the size, what you've done is an ass pull to justify your trolling.

Unless you point me to dialogue of Gohan specifically saying that it was both the type and size, what you've done is an ass pull to justify your trolling.

^See how easy it is to turn the exact same point back around on you? As I said. Just because there is no proof of something doesn't mean it proves me wrong. Just like just because there is no proof of something on your part proves that you are wrong. I mean if SSJ Goku was at 100% on Namek then Gohan is going to see that SSJ Trunks 100% is going to have a different Ki size regardless of if they are "close." It would be an incredible coincidence that Trunks is exactly the same battle power as Goku right down to the letter. There is going to be some difference no matter how small. And Gohan would have noticed that unless Gohan is going on the notion that what he sensed on Namek was Goku while injured and what he is sensing now is Goku while recovered.

Because he is speaking of "ki" in general terms. I mean, if you say something on the lines of "Bruce Willis is nearly identical to Pau Gasol" then I'm sorry but the majority of people will ask you to check your eyes. On the other hand if you say "Bruce Willis skin is of a nearly identical colour of that of Pau Gasol" then your right.
It's a matter of reading comprehension which is obvious that you lack or in case of not lacking then a proof that you're troling. As easy as that.

Yes, he is speaking in general. But that doesn't mean he couldn't just talking about "Ki type" there are plenty of vague general comments in the manga. Does that mean that they all have one fixed meaning that we must adhere to? No. It doesn't. As I have said numerous times in this post lack of evidence isn't evidence. Like Gohan saying "Dad's Ki... It shrank!..." could be taken as his Ki is at 1% or his Ki is at 33%. If I am of the opinion it is at 33% and there is no proof that it is. Does that necessarily make me wrong? I would think not.

Ok, and considering that the androids had infinite energy then explain me how Trunks was able to "fight them fairly well" if he didn't have at least "a similar amount of strength" than them. I mean, if you're saying they didn't have "the exact amount" of strength down to the unit then that's right but I don't think anyone will ever say this...

Well this is being subjective because how do you define what is "fairly well"? If they are 1.5x stronger than him then he isn't going to win but he can still put up a fight. Trunks definitely thinks he can't beat them the way he is though. He even tells us that in a one-on-one fight he can barely escape. In the Viz translation, I don't know if it is in the Japanese version, Trunks says "They're too strong! They are just too strong!" So I would say that the gap is significant enough for him to fight "fairly well" but still not put up any resistance to them. I mean in comparison the main timelines Androids can take him out in one blow. So fairly well could mean he can take like 10 blows. So yeah. Trunks is impressed by Goku's Strength and does have hope after seeing it. Even though he had no hope in himself destroying the Androids because he considered them too strong.

Firstly, you're not taking into account that Trunks may have lied a bit regarding the android's strength in order to entice Goku to train harder and to secure the victory. Trunks also came here saying that he wanted to change save his future to latter admit that whatever was done in the present wouldn't affect his timeline and that he just wanted to learn something and to see a future without the androids.

It would make sense to tell Goku that he is no match for them the way he is now to make sure he trains his hardest. Not tell him that looking at his strength he has hope. Even if he is lying about the Androids strength it wouldn't make sense to counteract his whole "they are extremely strong" with a statement saying that seeing Goku's strength fills him with hope. Because that would be negating the point of telling Goku they are extremely strong in the first place.

I mean, Trunks travels through the time to warn Goku & co about a menace that can destroy the world and that has ruined his future and he finds that Goku is already (3 years prior to the androids appearance) at the Androids levels. Don't forget that Trunks had the intention of coming back from the future to help fight the androids, so if Trunks could fight the androids fairly well and then he learns about Goku who was as strong as him and had 3 years to prepare for the fight then I think that it's completely understandable for Trunks to be happy to find that Goku is as strong as it is and also to lie a bit about the strength of the androids in order to entice Goku to train himself even more.

That isn't how the dialogue goes though. Trunks is talking about current tense. Not future tense. If he was talking about how strong Goku would become then he would have said so. Something like "Seeing your strength now I think you will be strong enough to fight them in three years." Not say "Seeing your strength I have hope." And if he was trying to entice Goku to train more then it is counter-productive to tell him that his Strength gives him hope...

Trunks wasn't like Goku that prioritized fights above anything, Trunks prioritized the earth safety and success above all and it's obvious that in order to prepare the z-warriors for the fight something like "those androids are so terrible I couldn't even fight one of them and you know we are really close in terms of strength" is much better than "wow Goku you're already at the androids' level of strength! If we combine our strength 3 years into the future we may be able to win! Have a good time with your family and don't worry because in 3 years we will fix everything!".

If he wants the best results out of Goku like you say he does by lying about their strength, again, it doesn't make sense for him to tell Goku that Goku's strength gives him hope. But aren't you making a lot of assumptions he is lying about the androids? Even if he says he fights them fairly well that doesn't mean they are incredibly strong. As I said. We don't have a basis for what he means by fairly well. Considering the main timelines Androids he may be saying that he could at least get a few punches in. Which I would think is fairly well considering how utterly destroyed they were against the main timeline Androids. You are just making a lot of assumptions to argue your point. It is fine for you to do that but it is subjective and I can say that Trunks wasn't strong enough to fight them but he could get in a few hits before they beat him and he ran away. It's no different than what we have been saying. The fact of the matter is Trunks says they are strong. And nothing disagree's with that fact because "fairly well" is subjective to whatever Trunks believes. And we also have Trunks tell us that he has hope now that he has seen Goku's strength. And as far as we can discern he is talking about Goku's current strength. There is nothing to disprove this.

Things have to be contextualized. Who says what, why and when, that's what matters. This is why Trunks described the androids the way he did the first time we see him and why he tells a different story after the present androids were awakened, because "the androids being too strong" was useful when the objective was to entice Goku & co to train, but once the situation comes to a point where this lie has no sense and what's most important for earth's survival is that "those androids of your timeline are certainly stronger than the ones in my timeline so more things could've changed" then he tells the true and give Goku & co the information (because present androids being stronger than past androids is of course important in the sense that more things could've changed).

Well you keep saying that Trunks used the "too strong" statement to entice Goku to train. But if that is the case then it would have made sense for Trunks to say "I'm sorry Goku. But as you are now, you have no chance against the Androids." rather than tell him that his strength gives him hope. It is counter productive. You're taken what is subjective and turning it into whatever you feel like to argue your point. This is all based around Trunks saying "fairly well" but for all we know that just means he could get in a few punches and at least dodge one or two. That doesn't mean that Trunks must be lying about the Androids being strong. Piccolo, Kuririn demonstrated they can get in blows against an enemy nearly double their strength when they thought against Nappa. I would think they did "fairly well" against him.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I can't prove that Gohan is talking just about "type of Ki" anymore than you can say he isn't. Just because Gohan says "its' the same Ki" doesn't mean he that he isn't just talking about type. And me saying Trunks is stronger than injured Goku on Namek is just my opinion. It lines up with Gohan just talking about "type of Ki" when he says "it's the same Ki" but I'm not using it as proof. Because it's just an opinion. Just like you can't say that Trunks is the same strength as Goku was on Namek because that that is just your opinion. You can make assumptions but nothing in the manga proves it unless we have a character telling us directly that they have the same amount of Ki. Which we don't.

There's more to show it's the type than the amount:

Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P13.3
Gohan: “It’s fa-father!!! It’s the same ki as father back then!!”
Note: Gohan says it’s the ‘same ki’ (onaji ki), rather than the ‘same amount of ki’ (onaji gurai no ki).

If he had the same amount of power, it would've been worded like:

Kuririn: "Th...that shouldn't be... Th...those guys have about the same amount of ki as th...that Recoom guy, and not even Vegeta could do anything against him...But Goku's too strong, so those guys don't look like anything special..."

Both are different. It's specifically noted.

Also, I'm pretty sure Goku actually tells the others he's going to find New Namek by searching for beings with the same Chi as Piccolo's. Obviously none of the other nameks even come close to Piccolo in power. The story has made it clear that Super Saiyan has a different feel to it.

[Hitiro]

I can't prove that Gohan is talking just about "type of Ki" anymore than you can say he isn't. Just because Gohan says "its' the same Ki" doesn't mean he that he isn't just talking about type. And me saying Trunks is stronger than injured Goku on Namek is just my opinion. It lines up with Gohan just talking about "type of Ki" when he says "it's the same Ki" but I'm not using it as proof. Because it's just an opinion. Just like you can't say that Trunks is the same strength as Goku was on Namek because that that is just your opinion. You can make assumptions but nothing in the manga proves it unless we have a character telling us directly that they have the same amount of Ki. Which we don't.

There's more to show it's the type than the amount:

Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P13.3
Gohan: “It’s fa-father!!! It’s the same ki as father back then!!”
Note: Gohan says it’s the ‘same ki’ (onaji ki), rather than the ‘same amount of ki’ (onaji gurai no ki).

If he had the same amount of power, it would've been worded like:

Kuririn: "Th...that shouldn't be... Th...those guys have about the same amount of ki as th...that Recoom guy, and not even Vegeta could do anything against him...But Goku's too strong, so those guys don't look like anything special..."

Both are different. It's specifically noted.

Also, I'm pretty sure Goku actually tells the others he's going to find New Namek by searching for beings with the same Chi as Piccolo's. Obviously none of the other nameks even come close to Piccolo in power. The story has made it clear that Super Saiyan has a different feel to it.

I've tried pointing it out that it could just be reffering to the type of Ki but Freezamite is adamant that Gohan is on about both type and size because he believes Gohan would have to tell everyone the Ki is stronger than before. But if the Goku's Ki on Namek was lower due to injury then I think there is no reason for Gohan to point out Trunks being stronger. Because it would be obvious that a hypothetically uninjured SSJ Goku is going to be stronger than a injured SSJ Goku. So why point it out? It isn't exactly necessary I think.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Right. Well, the above quotes definitely show that your interpretation can be considered valid.

[freezamite]

The characters have been flying with Ki below 100 in several scenes. This scene only proves the point that Ki usage throughout the manga varies and that Ki usage can effect the state of an ability. Kuririn states he finds it hard to fly because of a decrease in his Ki yet there are several examples in the manga where there are characters with probably less Ki than his having no difficulty flying. Goku against Piccolo in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai is a prime example. So there is nothing wrong with this. It just shows that he had to compensate for the drop in Ki like I feel Freeza did when he missed with the Kienzan the first time.

And what makes you think that Krilin is over 100 when he can't even stand up by himself? They gave all their Ki to Piccolo and they fired a ki blast against Freezer with their remaining strength in order to distract him. Furthermore, I don't understand why you insist on that when Freezer started controlling his kienzans at will after that. If those kienzans were able to track a SSJ, how wouldn't they be able to hit Goku in base state? It's pure nonsense!

You clearly don't understand my writing in this format. I put the speech marks around the word because it was the word in contention here. I am still talking about him not dodging in this piece of text. So no I'm not changing my opinion here just to contradict what you say. I'm saying that if Goku turns around and the Kienzan misses him isn't much of a feat considering Freeza couldn't attack correctly straight away because of his diminishing Ki.

Look, there has never been a "I can't attack correctly because I don't have enough ki" situation in the manga. The less ki you have the less powerful your attacks will be, and if you have lower ki than you thought then your attacks will be weaker than you had anticipated but that's all. Vegeta with his last drop of Ki used a kienzan-like technique to cut Gohan's tail, Goku with his last drop of Ki aimed at Vegeta's eye with a ki attack and we are speaking of much more weakened characters. I mean, Freezer only had a fraction of his power, but he still was in a much better shape than those other characters I put as an example.

Not only that, but Freezer starts chasing SSJ Goku with his kienzans after that, so it's obvious that he is in perfect control of his technique and that he didn't have any accuracy problem. He was just too weakened to track SSJ Goku but if SSJ Goku hasn't been as fast as he is he would have been killed by Freezer without any doubt. Even Freezer's last shot, with the few energy Goku gave him, didn't had any accuracy problem.

At the end of the fight with Freeza and Goku they were not even at all. While they started off even, in fact Freeza was doing better than him at the start, it quickly changed to Goku beating him down. Also, how do you know the power drop was gradual? Goku said his power was steadily dropping.
That only tells us it's a fixed rate. If he is losing 1 million battle power each second then Freeza would quickly be around Goku's level after 50 seconds if Goku is only fighting with a battle power of 1 million. You keep saying Trunks' Ki was equal to Goku's but it never says in what way. For all we know its just type because if Goku was fighting with only a fraction of his power on Namek then it would be understandable that Gohan is just talking about type without regard for Ki size due to him knowing Goku was injured on Namek.

Look, Goku says:

Goku: “I quit. [ ] As a backlash from you using your 100% power, you’ve passed your peak, and your ki is steadily dropping…I’m starting to think that there’s no point in fighting any more than this…”

Which means that Freezer was losing power since the first second he reached 100%. He was a bit above SSJ Goku in the beginning and that's why he started taking a slight advantage and why the fight was a bit more even than the one between SSJ Vegeta and #18 but the loss of power was a backlash of using his 100% so he was losing power since the first second which means that it wasn't something that suddenly started to happen to him.

He was weakened but there's no reason to think he had a sudden loss of power when he fired the kienzan for the first time only to then suddenly regain it (because he controls the keiznan PERFECTLY after that, which is why Goku has to turn into a SSJ and start evading the kienzans unless you also think that Goku didn't dodge and it was Freezer missing the target every time) without no explanations. Look, it's easy, Freezer fires the kienzan, Goku turns and see it, then he moves his head to a side (that can not be denied. You may say it was just luck or whatever, but it's a fact that he moves his head to a side) and the Kienzan still cuts his face which means that if Goku hadn't moved his head the kienzan wouldn't have missed.

Goku takes him down easily before he reverts.

Yes, he takes him down but in that exchange of hits Freezer is still capable of connecting some of his hits so the difference was big enough for Goku to realize that the fight was already decided but really tiny in terms of relative %.
I mean, remember how a mere 10-15% difference in power translates to in DB (complete domination for the stronger fighter) and even if that was ABOUT TO HAPPEN between Goku and Freezer, it still didn't happen between them so the difference wasn't that big. Of course, not big enough to compensate Goku turning back to his base form afterwards.

He isn't dodging at the end when Goku decides that he is going to quit. We even get Goku telling us that he isn't a challenge any more. We also don't know the rate at which Freeza is losing energy. Considering Freeza went from being even with Goku to quickly being dominated the power drop is substantial and it is still steadily dropping off. Going by a 4x multiplier if that is what you want it would take literally 4 seconds if Freeza's energy was decreasing by 1 million each time.

Look at chapter 325. Goku punches Freezer in the gut, then Freezer counter-attacks with a hit to Goku's back and a kick to his face that sends him flying against a mountain. Goku uses the mountain to launch another counter-attack to Freezer who dodges the first kick (that was a feint, but Freezer still dodged) and then Goku connects with a second kick to Freezer's face. Freezer gets up but Goku is already at his back and punches him a couple more of times.

Yes, Goku is already above Freezer here but it's still not a "Vegeta vs Dodoria" difference in power. Goku knows that this advantage will only grow bigger as the time passes because of Freezer sustained loss of power and that's why he quit, but nothing indicates that Freezer's loss of power rises suddenly so we have to assume it didn't. If Freezer had been losing 1 million of units of power per second then the fight would've ended in 2 seconds at most so that's of course not a possibility.

We know Freezer had been fighting Goku for some time with that power loss so it wasn't that huge. It just was big enough to be decisive in a battle between two even fighters, but that's it.

No. That means that Goku heard something he turned around and Freeza missed his mark.

So Goku reacted to the kienzan which is what matters here. If Goku was so weakened then he shouldn't be able to react to the kienzan at all, like Piccolo with the death beams. Piccolo could do nothing against those attacks, nor see them, nor hear them (and he had better ears than a sayan) nor anything.
From the moment that Goku is able to turn his head, even if you will never accept that he moved it to a side despite there being an whole vignette dedicated to it, you're admitting that he was able to react to the Kienzan somehow so...

In the manga Goku is still turning around and his head was already in that position as he turned. He didn't move his head at all in my opinion

Look, I take that you don't like chapter 325's page 12 but Goku is even LOOKING AT THE KIENZAN while he dodges it so I don't even want to discuss that anymore. If you don't like it call Toriyama and make him redraw the whole page, but Goku's eyes looking at the kienzan demonstrates that he reacted at the attack like it or not.

Gohan not talking about Ki size is understandable because Goku was injured on Namek so he wasn't outputting his full potential.

So what? Then you don't say "it's the same ki" if it's not the same ki but a larger one...

So you can't really use this

I can't even use direct drawings from the manga because you'll always come with an excuse for everything no matter how stupid it is (like Freezer missing a target that he latter successfully tracks in a much more complicated situation) so it's not that I have any intention to continue insisting to argue against a wall...

I can't prove that Gohan is talking just about "type of Ki" anymore than you can say he isn't. Just because Gohan says "its' the same Ki" doesn't mean he that he isn't just talking about type. And me saying Trunks is stronger than injured Goku on Namek is just my opinion. It lines up with Gohan just talking about "type of Ki" when he says "it's the same Ki" but I'm not using it as proof. Because it's just an opinion. Just like you can't say that Trunks is the same strength as Goku was on Namek because that that is just your opinion. You can make assumptions but nothing in the manga proves it unless we have a character telling us directly that they have the same amount of Ki. Which we don't.

There's more to show it's the type than the amount:

Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P13.3
Gohan: “It’s fa-father!!! It’s the same ki as father back then!!”
Note: Gohan says it’s the ‘same ki’ (onaji ki), rather than the ‘same amount of ki’ (onaji gurai no ki).

If he had the same amount of power, it would've been worded like:

Kuririn: "Th...that shouldn't be... Th...those guys have about the same amount of ki as th...that Recoom guy, and not even Vegeta could do anything against him...But Goku's too strong, so those guys don't look like anything special..."

Both are different. It's specifically noted.

Also, I'm pretty sure Goku actually tells the others he's going to find New Namek by searching for beings with the same Chi as Piccolo's. Obviously none of the other nameks even come close to Piccolo in power. The story has made it clear that Super Saiyan has a different feel to it.

Well, look, I think it's time for some basic explanations:


See those squares? Ok, now let's imagine that the size of the squares is the size of a ki and that the colour is the type of ki. When Krilin says: Those guys have the same amount of ki it means that the size is the same, but it's obvious that the type was really different so he couldn't say "the same ki" because it wasn't the same, it was of the same size but of a different type (logic when you think that neither Burter or Jeice where of the same species than Reecome).

In the same way I would never say that the squares in the bottom are "the same" despite them having the same size. In the bottom I would say "the squares are equally big" or "equal in size" or whatever, but they're clearly not the same.
But in the same way I wouldn't say that the two squares of the center of my pic are "the same" despite them being of the same colour, because it's obvious that in terms of size one is much bigger.

On the other hand, I can say that the first two squares are the same because they're equal in terms of what we measure here, and that's size and colour. Only in the first example you can say "it's the same" and not in the others.

You're constantly putting in my mouth words I've never said. I've never denied that the type of Ki was equal or nearly equal between Goku and Trunks, I'm only saying that you don't say "the same" if there are differences, and in this case that means size and type because that's the two parameters that can be sensed in DB. Trunks had the same Ki Goku had on Namek, not only the quantity but also the type and not only the type but also the quantities.

Those excuses of "Gohan thought that while saying that" are just that, excuses. We don't know what they were thinking unless its explicitly stated so Gohan said what he said and he said that to people that weren't in Namek when Goku transformed so hiding a big difference in terms of ki size is pure nonsense.