Gohan's ki contribution should be enough for Buu's death

[Angelus]

When Goku was collecting ki for the Spirit Bomb to throw at Kid Buu, shouldn't have Gohan's full ki contribution to it enough already to destroy Kid Buu? This is mystic Gohan we're talking about. Even he alone would have been enough to kill Kid Buu if they faced each other. Add that to the fact that Piccolo, Kid Goten and Trunks, Kibito Kai, All the Namekians on New Planet Namek, Android 17 and 18 (assuming they could contribute a full newly fused Kamiccolo amount of Ki each), Tien, Krillin, Yamcha, Chiaotzu, Chi Chi, Roshi, Ox King, Bora, Upa, and Goku's friends from when he was a kid and in Other World, also sent their ki with Gohan's. Shouldn't the sum of all that ki had been enough to destroy Kid Buu?

I mean Gohan's ki in itself was already overkill, considering that mystic Gohan was more than enough to destroy Super Buu and was even more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks. Heck, I could imagine if Goten and Trunks did the fusion dance and turned into SSJ3 Gotenks, their ki contribution for that Spirit Bomb should have been waaay more than enough for just Kid Buu.

NOTE: I'm talking manga-wise, not in the anime where Satan/Goku actually wanted to ask for more ki from Earth's population, although those people were already tired from already contributing earlier.

[Hitiro]

Well we don't know if Gohan had his full Ki when he was resurrected. But ignoring that, Only a sub-section of Gohan's Ki would have been contributed to the Genki Dama. And that would be the Genki portion of his Ki. We don't know how much of this Genki he has, it could only be 33% of his actual Ki, for instance. It could be less. It could even be only as big as a humans Genki for all we know(This is probably unlikely but you never know). There are many things we don't know about the Genki part of Ki as it is never explained in too much detail.

[Herms]

But ignoring that, Only a sub-section of Gohan's Ki would have been contributed to the Genki Dama. And that would be the Genki portion of his Ki. We don't know how much of this Genki he has, it could only be 33% of his actual Ki, for instance. It could be less. It could even be only as big as a humans Genki for all we know(This is probably unlikely but you never know).

Yeah, I assume genki doesn't vary as much from person to person as overall ki. So a regular Earthling's battle power is 5 and Gohan's is 14 gazillion or whatever, but the amount of genki they have to donate wouldn't vary by nearly that much. In a pinch, this might also explain why when Babidi plugs in the energy Yamu and Spopovitch stole from Gohan into Boo's ball, he wonders how many "hundreds" of Earthlings the two must have gathered energy from.

Heck, maybe genki doesn't even vary at all between a different person's forms. Otherwise Goten and Trunks are being really stupid donating their energy in their regular form, as opposed to as Super Saiyans or as Gotenks. OK, so the kids are pretty stupid, but nothing is done to indicate that them donating their energy like that is supposed to be a mistake.

[Angelus]

But it wouldn't make sense for Goku's friends to NOT give as much Ki as they can. Even if it sucked up just 50%-80% of their Ki/energy, going by how that ordinary human felt like he was exhausted (the same feeling as running a marathon), Gohan's contribution is still enough... and even if it isn't, we have the rest of the Z fighters, Kibito Kai, the android twins, and all the Namekians (whom clock in at an average of a power level of 3000, as compared to the human average of 5) to add up to that.

EDIT: Oh and as for the kids not being SSJ, it probably slipped their minds. So yes, giving their ki while at base is a whole lot less compared to contributing as SSJs or Gotenks but Gohan is already in his mystic/ultimate form, he wouldn't need to "transform". Him being in a mystic/ultimate state is more than enough.

Wait, so Genki is different from Ki?

SIDE NOTE/MY RAMBLINGS:Dende should have worded his wish to be "Restore the full energy of the Saiyans on Planet Kaoishin" so that Vegeta could get fully energized as well, aside from Goku. Doesn't seem too far-fetched of a wish if you can wish "Resurrect all humans on Earth blah blah".

It would have been a nice end if Vegeta shot a Big Bang attack to a struggling, from pushing/lifting that huge Spirit Bomb, Kid Buu. The same way Vegeta shot Cell while Gohan was shooting Cell with a Kamehameha.

[Kamiccolo9]

But it wouldn't make sense for Goku's friends to NOT give as much Ki as they can. Even if it sucked up just 50%-80% of their Ki/energy, going by how that ordinary human felt like he was exhausted (the same feeling as running a marathon), Gohan's contribution is still enough... and even if it isn't, we have the rest of the Z fighters, Kibito Kai, the android twins, and all the Namekians (whom clock in at an average of a power level of 3000, as compared to the human average of 5) to add up to that.

They did give all they could. But they weren't giving ki; they were giving genki, which is a different concept.

[Friezacooler]

Another prove that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu lol.

[Angelus]

But it wouldn't make sense for Goku's friends to NOT give as much Ki as they can. Even if it sucked up just 50%-80% of their Ki/energy, going by how that ordinary human felt like he was exhausted (the same feeling as running a marathon), Gohan's contribution is still enough... and even if it isn't, we have the rest of the Z fighters, Kibito Kai, the android twins, and all the Namekians (whom clock in at an average of a power level of 3000, as compared to the human average of 5) to add up to that.

They did give all they could. But they weren't giving ki; they were giving genki, which is a different concept.

So what's the difference between Ki and Genki? I tried Googling it and the results were synonymous to energy or being "enthusiastic, energetic, lively" and some results were about sushi.

Either ways, the more powerful you are, the bigger amount of Genki you can contribute right? Surely Gohan's genki is colossal compared to a tree's or a rock's genki.

NOTE: I'm talking manga-wise, not in the anime where Satan/Goku actually wanted to ask for more ki from Earth's population, although those people were already tired from already contributing earlier.

[Kamiccolo9]

But it wouldn't make sense for Goku's friends to NOT give as much Ki as they can. Even if it sucked up just 50%-80% of their Ki/energy, going by how that ordinary human felt like he was exhausted (the same feeling as running a marathon), Gohan's contribution is still enough... and even if it isn't, we have the rest of the Z fighters, Kibito Kai, the android twins, and all the Namekians (whom clock in at an average of a power level of 3000, as compared to the human average of 5) to add up to that.

They did give all they could. But they weren't giving ki; they were giving genki, which is a different concept.

So what's the difference between Ki and Genki? I tried Googling it and the results were synonymous to energy or being "enthusiastic, energetic, lively" and some results were about sushi.

Either ways, the more powerful you are, the bigger amount of Genki you can contribute right? Surely Gohan's genki is colossal compared to a tree's or a rock's genki.

NOTE: I'm talking manga-wise, not in the anime where Satan/Goku actually wanted to ask for more ki from Earth's population, although those people were already tired.

Genki is a part of ki. Ki is made up of various different things, of which Genki is one. And as mentioned by Herms and Hitiro in their posts above, we don't know how it works. As far as we know, Genki is a more or less set amount for everybody.

[Angelus]

Genki is a part of ki. Ki is made up of various different things, of which Genki is one. As far as we know, Genki is a more or less set amount for everybody.

It would make sense if Genki only took 10% (that's a number I just pulled out of my ass) from a person's ki. Well, maybe 10% of Mystic Gohan is still enough. But anyways..

Okay, so the way you guys look at it, it would be like this?

Components of Ki (assuming Genki is only 10%):

10% Genki
40% Broki
6% Loki
34% Kiki
7% Maki
3% Baki

^ They're just examples. I made up those words.

Genki is a part of Ki then. However... a set number for each person? So a rock's contribution to it is equivalent to Gohan's? Got to disagree with that. XD

The more powerful you are, the bigger your Genki contribution should be too, right?

[Herms]

I guess I might as well drag out Toriyama's quote from the Super Exciting Guide:

What’s the secret of winning in battle?
When it comes to battle, the most important thing is ki size, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki]. There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.

The key to understanding that is that before it was a wacky DB concept, ki was a basic part of the Japanese worldview, and as a result it's used in lots of everyday Japanese words relating to one's health or state of mind. So a stock Japanese greeting is to ask whether someone's genki, similar to how in English you might ask "how are you?" of someone you haven't seen in a while. Even in DB, when (for instance) Kaioshin says he wants Gohan to pull out the Z Sword, Kibito responds by saying o-ki wa tashika desu ka, basically meaning "have you lost your mind?", but if you break it down super-literally he's really asking about Kaioshin's ki. That's where you get words like shouki, literally the "right ki", meaning sober, in one's right mind. So Toriyama's comment is about how "of course" even crazy DB-style ki includes those more down-to-earth uses of the concept, so that seemingly simple stuff like being brave, being healthy, and being sound of mind can contribute to who wins a DB battle.

It's probably a bit simplistic to go from that to saying "x% of someone's power level comes from genki", or "a character with a BP of 140 gazillion should have at least 14 gazillion points of genki to contribute to the Genki-Dama". But the general idea is that genki is a factor in a character's overall ki, and that taking someone's genki isn't necessarily the same thing as simply sucking out their ki.

[Hitiro]

I would also assume that Genki, because it basically means energy/vigor, is what is consumed in transformations. And possibly helps to maintain the rest of your Ki output that isn't based on mental aspects, such as Yuuki and Shouki. Essentially Genki influences how much Ki you can use from your body. If you are exhausted, like Goku was against Boo, then you have low Genki and thus a low Ki output overall. While things like Yuuki and Shouki wouldn't be affected by Genki because they're mental aspects of Ki. Thus replenish someone's Genki allows them to use their actual Ki. It would allow for things like Dende healing people who are extremely above his level make sense. Dende would convert his Ki supply into Genki for the recipient as well as repairing wounds. Whereas people like Kibito who just transfer their Ki supply to the other persons Ki supply is a very inefficient method? This is all speculation of course. But I can see how it could be something along these lines.

[Angelus]

Oh. Wow, Herms, I didn't even know what genki, yuuki, and shouki was until now. I just thought ki was plain energy/power levels. Like if Goku shot a kamehameha, that takes up 300 Million worth of power level or something. The same way your SP/Mana bar goes down in a video game.

Well, apparently, the "genki" part of ki that Gohan contributed may not have been enough to kill Buu. OR, like mentioned above, Gohan was just "newly" resurrected and was not at full power. That's why when Vegeta became living, and lost his halo, he fought Kid Buu while in base form. He was "Newly" resurrected and didn't have enough power to even turn SSJ. The same way Goku was not at full power when he was "alive" again, even though he was SSJ3. Or a plot hole. A small one.

This gets confusing though.... if Yuuki and Shouki were states of mind and health, then Genki should be the "ki" that you have that you use for power: shooting ki blasts and transforming and your power level. So it wasn't taking Gohan's Yuuki and Shouki but just his Genki.

Ah, damn it. We don't fully understand how the ki thing works.

[Darkprince410]

Oh. Wow, Herms, I didn't even know what genki, yuuki, and shouki was until now. I just thought ki was plain energy/power levels. Like if Goku shot a kamehameha, that takes up 300 Million worth of power level or something. The same way your SP/Mana bar goes down in a video game.

Well, apparently, the "genki" part of ki that Gohan contributed may not have been enough to kill Buu. OR, like mentioned above, Gohan was just "newly" resurrected and was not at full power. That's why when Vegeta became living, and lost his halo, he fought Kid Buu while in base form. He was "Newly" resurrected and didn't have enough power to even turn SSJ. The same way Goku was not at full power when he was "alive" again, even though he was SSJ3. Or a plot hole. A small one.

This gets confusing though.... if Yuuki and Shouki were states of mind and health, then Genki should be the "ki" that you have that you use for power: shooting ki blasts and transforming and your power level. So it wasn't taking Gohan's Yuuki and Shouki but just his Genki.

Ah, damn it. We don't fully understand how the ki thing works.

Well, an example of where shouki may have come into play was when Ginyu took over Goku's body. We know for a fact that, in his base, Goku was able to put out a battle power of 90,000, but Ginyu was only able to make it up to about 23,000 when inside Goku's body. One could argue that his body and mind weren't synched (i.e. not of his right mind), and as a result, he wasn't able to bring out the full power of the body.

Since we don't know how the three parts of ki work in relation to one another, it's always possible that individually, their values are relatively minor, but combined together with their counterparts, they compliment and amplify eachother. Basically a situation of "The whole being greater than the sum of its parts".

[xmysticgohanx]

Another prove that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu lol.

You mean the only proof lol. It's shaky at best

[Hitiro]

Oh. Wow, Herms, I didn't even know what genki, yuuki, and shouki was until now. I just thought ki was plain energy/power levels. Like if Goku shot a kamehameha, that takes up 300 Million worth of power level or something. The same way your SP/Mana bar goes down in a video game.

Well, apparently, the "genki" part of ki that Gohan contributed may not have been enough to kill Buu. OR, like mentioned above, Gohan was just "newly" resurrected and was not at full power. That's why when Vegeta became living, and lost his halo, he fought Kid Buu while in base form. He was "Newly" resurrected and didn't have enough power to even turn SSJ. The same way Goku was not at full power when he was "alive" again, even though he was SSJ3. Or a plot hole. A small one.

This gets confusing though.... if Yuuki and Shouki were states of mind and health, then Genki should be the "ki" that you have that you use for power: shooting ki blasts and transforming and your power level. So it wasn't taking Gohan's Yuuki and Shouki but just his Genki.

Ah, damn it. We don't fully understand how the ki thing works.

Genki is considered your energy, vigour or vitality. So if you die you then you don't have Genki. If you're sick then you have low Genki. If you are injured, or you're tired, then you also have lower Genki. If you look at the chapter in which humans were giving up their Genki you can see that they are out of breath. So I would not consider it the main element of shooting Ki blasts. Sure you are going to get exhausted hurling Ki blast after Ki blast. But you are also going to get exhausted doing sit-ups. And having Genki be the main part of Ki blasts would mean that it would have to be a dominant part of the characters Ki reserve which pretty much rules out it being a small portion of what makes up Ki. I agree that it is more necessary for you to have Genki when using and maintaining transformations.

But Ki can be broken down much further then Genki, Shouki and Yuuki. The way Akira Toriyama words this seems to suggest there are several other elements of Ki that we aren't aware of. While we may know these 3 specifically there could be a lot more to what influences Ki size.

[Angelus]

Well, an example of where shouki may have come into play was when Ginyu took over Goku's body. We know for a fact that, in his base, Goku was able to put out a battle power of 90,000, but Ginyu was only able to make it up to about 23,000 when inside Goku's body. One could argue that his body and mind weren't synched (i.e. not of his right mind), and as a result, he wasn't able to bring out the full power of the body.

YES! That's a great example. That does make sense now why Ginyu couldn't access it. One's "ki" may be more than the sum of Genki, Shouki and Yuuki but from the Ginyu example, the Genki + Yuuki only be 23,000 while the rest, 67,000 would be the Shouki. That could go hand in hand with my idea that Genki is a small part then, and Shouki is the major part. Which explains why only a small part of Gohan's ki, his genki, was contributed to the Spirit Bomb. But yeah, "The whole being greater than the sum of its parts". So... I don't know. lol

But Ki can be broken down much further then Genki, Shouki and Yuuki. The way Akira Toriyama words this seems to suggest there are several other elements of Ki that we aren't aware of. While we may know these 3 specifically there could be a lot more to what influences Ki size.

In Japanese culture, is there more to "Ki" than Genki, Shouki and Yuuki?

[Herms]

But Ki can be broken down much further then Genki, Shouki and Yuuki. The way Akira Toriyama words this seems to suggest there are several other elements of Ki that we aren't aware of. While we may know these 3 specifically there could be a lot more to what influences Ki size.

Yeah, "such spiritual powers as" x, y, z suggests that there's a whole lot else besides just those three. Like I said, the underlying logic to Toriyama's comment is the idea that words with 気/ki in them factor into DB-style ki, and there's an awful lot of words in Japanese words like that. The SEG interview includes a note (probably not written by Toriyama) that gives sickness (byouki) as an example of something that might negatively factor into things:

Note 11: Genki and yuuki, shouki
The word “energy” [genki] is well known, but if you had an illness [byouki], would you not have energy? That’s difficult to answer. There are some people who have a healthy body but no energy, but there are also some people who are full of energy even when ill. What’s more, even with people who have about the same amount of power, there are some who, when attacked by Piccolo Daimao for instance, will stand firm and tough it out, while others will run away trembling in fear. If you think this way, you might understand how different kinds of “ki” are very important in battle. In the world of Chinese kenpo disciplines such as Tai Chi, much importance is placed on the training and control of ki.

Although in “DragonBall” the wizard Babidi had invented machines that measured and extracted “ki”, modern science is unable to measure “ki” or store it anywhere. However, there are times when people support you, and give you energy [genki] and courage [yuuki]. Though it can’t be seen, what is present then is “ki”.

In Japanese culture, is there more to "Ki" than Genki, Shouki and Yuuki?

Again, there's an awful lot of words that include "ki". Toriyama happens to list genki, shouki, and yuuki, but there's nothing particularly special about those three examples. Off the top of my head, there's also 狂気/kyouki (crazy), 短気/tanki (short-tempered), and 浮気/uwaki (unfaithful, like Bulma accuses Yamcha of being).

[Angelus]

Wow.. this is some pretty deep stuff. I didn't know the "ki" thing was THAT embedded in Japanese culture. And I bet it may have different aspects in the Chinese culture, which they call "Ki" as "Chi". Thanks for all the insights, Herms!

I guess it's safe to say we don't have a real clue of how DB "Ki" works or how it contributes to a Genki Dama, except that we know that only Genki, from Ki's many components, is contributed to a Genki Dama. Imagine Gohan having to explain this stuff to Videl. lol

Something just hit me though. The Scouters.... they probably only measure Genki (energy/vigor) at first and could still measure when you become weaker. Gohan's rage boosts... Yuuki (bravery), and shouki (being in one’s right mind) can't be measured until they manifest. That's why your "ki" or power level increases when you power up. I'm just rambling, don't mind me. lol

[singsing]

I assume there's a reason Goten and Trunks didn't fuse into Gotenks SSJ3 to give their Genki, and that is because PL doesn't exactly matter as much. So no, Gohan alone wouldn't have worked. Or yeesh just bring Gohan himself and kill the pink blob.

[Hitiro]

Wow.. this is some pretty deep stuff. I didn't know the "ki" thing was THAT embedded in Japanese culture. And I bet it may have different aspects in the Chinese culture, which they call "Ki" as "Chi". Thanks for all the insights, Herms!

I guess it's safe to say we don't have a real clue of how DB "Ki" works or how it contributes to a Genki Dama, except that we know that only Genki, from Ki's many components, is contributed to a Genki Dama. Imagine Gohan having to explain this stuff to Videl. lol

Something just hit me though. The Scouters.... they probably only measure Genki (energy/vigor) at first and could still measure when you become weaker. Gohan's rage boosts... Yuuki (bravery), and shouki (being in one’s right mind) can't be measured until they manifest. That's why your "ki" or power level increases when you power up. I'm just rambling, don't mind me. lol

I would think that, as Herms has brought them up in his post, Gohan's "rage boosts" are more Kyouki(crazy) and Tanki(short-tempered) rather than Yuuki and Shouki. But I think you are putting too much on the Genki portion of Ki here. It is more likely that this portion is very negligible considering Gohan contributed very little to the Genki Dama. If Scouters measured only Genki then it would be a very small value that is very similar between a lot of people.

For instance, I would surmise that the whole population of Earth whether they have a battle power of 5 or a battle power of 10 would all share a similar Genki value. Perhaps in terms of battle power this Genki portion of Ki would equate to a 1 or a 2? As we see in the manga though from Gohan's emotions, which Yuuki is very much involved in at the start, his battle power moves around quite frequently. When he is afraid of Raditz it shrinks to 1. But inside the Saiyan pod it was 710. When Gohan was angry at Raditz for hurting his dad it shot up to 1307. From this we can probably speculate that battle power takes into consideration a lot more than just Genki. As emotions seem to move Gohan's battle power around a lot.

And while Genki is an important part of Ki, as it is basically how much energy you have, you can't have more than 100% of your energy/stamina I would think. If anything is going to increase it would be some other sort of Ki-type. Like Kyouki and Tanki. Or something else. Perhaps there is a more general form of Ki that is influenced by these types of Ki. I really don't know of many any other forms of Ki apart from the ones that have been listed. Perhaps Herms knows of some other type of Ki that could fit the bill. But I would think Genki is more of a Ki-type that only changes through your health and stamina. Though I guess that there is another form of Ki that works in conjunction with Genki to basically "tough-it-out." Sort of like if you fight an opponent who is incredibly strong and your Genki is low, you can force yourself to use more energy than you should to finish the fight. I suppose that type of Ki would be "will-power." You "will" yourself to keep fighting even though you are out of, or low on, Genki?

I know in History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi there are two other forms of Ki. Seiki(true character/heart/spirit) and Douki(Motive/Temperament?). I guess we can also take these into the Dragon Ball world? There is also Haki(Ambition)? I'm probably getting their actual meanings wrong but these are also part of Ki, I would think. I would also assume there is the whole "Demonic Ki" aspect too. What would that be? Maki?