Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza?

[rereboy]

1.) I never said you were unintelligent. I said there was no intelligible way to defend your initial rationale.
2.) Your initial rationale was: "Freeza wasn't suppressed, because Cold never said he wasn't using his full power." Yes, I do believe that logic is silly, because it allows us to overlay our own personal opinions onto a scene, even when NO evidence supports said opinions. It's no different than: "Goku never said that Raditz couldn't stop time, therefore Raditz could stop time." Again, that sort of logic borders on a no-limits fallacy, and no-limits fallacies are silly. If a no-limits fallacy wasn't your intention, then great! I'm just describing to you how it looks to me.

You shouldn't take things so personally. I haven't insulted you any more than you have insulted me(if you perceived any of my previous responses as insults, it was unintentional on my end), so I don't know why you're back-handedly threatening me via the report function..? This is an internet-based discussion forum. I am allowed to have a different opinion than you.

Like I have repetitively told you, my sole reason to think Freeza increased in power is because it would be illogical in-universe for him to not increase it while fighting a SSJ. I don't base my opinion on anything more than that, nor do I think my opinion is fact since there is room for interpretation.

And like I also already told you, my examples regarding Cold and Gohan were just examples to demonstrate how your logic of assuming what it means when characters don't state something is flawed and can be used to assume various things, including the opposite of your opinion. But I don't base my opinion on any of that. Those examples were just a response to your argument. You are still insisting that I'm basing my opinion on what Cold said or didn't say, but, like I said, my opinion isn't based on that at all. That is just an example to show you how your own argument is flawed.

And finally, what you stated was "there's really no intelligible way to defend the silly rationale you were trying to sell". That has nothing to do with expressing or defending your own opinion. That's just a passive-aggressive way of belittling my opinion and arguments, while associating my opinion and myself with the terms "silly" and "intelligible" and also claiming that nothing else besides what you are saying has validity. Such a tone is ultimately inappropriate for a good discussion and almost always leads to the toxic degeneration of the discussion and topic. Since I'm not a moderator, instead of responding to you in kind or just reporting you right away, I just warned you that if you have that tone in further discussions, I will, eventually, report it and leave the situation to the judgment of the moderators. I'm not taking it personally at all. If I did, I would just respond to you in kind.

[Galan007]

Like I have repetitively told you, my sole reason to think Freeza increased in power, is because it would be illogical in-universe for him to not increase it while fighting a SSJ.

And like I have repeatedly told you: "I'm willing to agree with the opinion that Mecha Freeza was tapping 70% of his power on earth, assuming that'd put him nearly on par with 100% organic Freeza. However, nothing is suggestive of him tapping more power than he possessed on Namek... Which is why I think it's rather clear that his 'Mecha power up' was never seen."

In simpler terms: I'm fine if people want to believe that Mecha Freeza~100% organic Freeza. It's the "Mecha Freeza>100% organic Freeza" opinion that I entirely disagree with. So if you agree with that, then we agree on the overall point.

[rereboy]

Not really, since my main point was my disagreement with your argument, not your opinion, as you can easily see and check in my posts to you.

I have no problem with you believing that Freeza was not at top power when he died. Like I said, there's room for interpretation there and that is certainly possible.

However, the argument you used to justify that is flawed. I don't think that a real conclusion can be achieved from the fact that nobody commented on his power increasing for the reasons I stated.

[Galan007]

However, the argument you used to justify that is flawed. I don't think that a real conclusion can be achieved from the fact that nobody commented on his power increasing for the reasons I stated.

I won't mention your logic again because you'll report me, apparently.

So I'll just leave this as is.

[Hugo Boss]

Nothing is suggested directly, but there are ways to assume Mecha Freeza could be stronger than his Namek counterpart, like due to his cybernetic parts. Since we are discussing something around Android Arc, I think it's entirely possible that Freeza could lack a aura or a buffed shape while powering-up in a fight. Even if none doesn't make a note of it, the possibility is still valid.

[rereboy]

However, the argument you used to justify that is flawed. I don't think that a real conclusion can be achieved from the fact that nobody commented on his power increasing for the reasons I stated.

I won't respond on your logic because you'll report me, apparently.

So I'll just leave this as is.

I'll report you if you respond to me with a inappropriate tone, like every forum user should do. If you actually want to engage in a good discussion, using logical arguments, I obviously have no reason to report you.

Nothing is suggested directly, but there are ways to assume Mecha Freeza could be stronger than his Namek counterpart, like due to his cybernetic parts. Since we are discussing something around Android Arc, I think it's entirely possible that Freeza could lack a aura or a buffed shape while powering-up in a fight. Even if none doesn't make a note of it, it still doesn't invalidate the possibility.

Actually, Freeza literally states that he increased his power compared to Namek. What we don't have is a clear confirmation is whether he used his top power before dying or not.

[Galan007]

If you actually want to engage in a good discussion, using logical arguments, I obviously have no reason to report you.

Been there, done that. You come back with the same logic/rationale each time, and I then I disagree with your logic/rationale, in turn(and vice versa.) Wash/rinse/repeat.

I'm not a fan of circular arguments, so again, I'll respectfully disagree and leave it at that.

[Hugo Boss]

Actually, Freeza literally states that he increased his power compared to Namek. What we don't have is a clear confirmation is whether he used his top power before dying or not.

Yeah, my mistake again for not being clear in my point. I'm referring to the situation of Gohan saying he can use a lot more power than Yamcha was feeling. About Freeza's statement, it is a valid point to assume he increased his power on top of his 120 million's PL, but Freeza also doesn't confirm he is speaking the truth by his actions. I think he used his full power, but I can't say for sure if he got stronger or not due to how Trunks tricked him.

[kuartus4]

Just because Freeza was fighting a ssj, doesn't mean Freeza thought Trunks was strong or that it would merit him going to 100% power. Freeza was a very arrogant individual and perhaps thought he could take on Trunks without even using his full power. Even after Trunks killed Freeza, King Cold still believed Trunks was weaker than he(Cold) was. Freeza could have thought something similar.

[rereboy]

Just because Freeza was fighting a ssj, doesn't mean Freeza thought Trunks was strong or that it would merit him going to 100% power. Freeza was a very arrogant individual and perhaps thought he could take on Trunks without even using his full power. Even after Trunks killed Freeza, King Cold still believed Trunks was weaker than he(Cold) was. Freeza could have thought something similar.

Cold thought that Trunks' sword would be able to kill Trunks, not that he was stronger than Trunks.

In my opinion, Freeza is arrogant, but he is not arrogant and stupid to the point where he would face a SSJ without using the power that he could use, especially since he looked pretty scared of Trunks once he saw he was a SSJ.

[kuartus4]

Just because Freeza was fighting a ssj, doesn't mean Freeza thought Trunks was strong or that it would merit him going to 100% power. Freeza was a very arrogant individual and perhaps thought he could take on Trunks without even using his full power. Even after Trunks killed Freeza, King Cold still believed Trunks was weaker than he(Cold) was. Freeza could have thought something similar.

Cold thought that Trunks' sword would be able to kill Trunks, not that he was stronger than Trunks.

In my opinion, Freeza is arrogant, but he is not arrogant and stupid to the point where he would face a SSJ without using the power that he could use, especially since he looked pretty scared of Trunks once he saw he was a SSJ.

IIRC, Cold said Trunks could never beat him(Cold) without the sword, which to me implies Cold thought Trunks was weaker than him.

[Galan007]

Just because Freeza was fighting a ssj, doesn't mean Freeza thought Trunks was strong or that it would merit him going to 100% power. Freeza was a very arrogant individual and perhaps thought he could take on Trunks without even using his full power. Even after Trunks killed Freeza, King Cold still believed Trunks was weaker than he(Cold) was. Freeza could have thought something similar.

Good point.

[rereboy]

IIRC, Cold said Trunks could never beat him(Cold) without the sword, which to me implies Cold thought Trunks was weaker than him.

IMO, it implies that Cold thought that the sword gave him the edge he needed to defeat Trunks since, in his opinion, Trunks wouldn't be able to resist a blow from a weapon that had killed Freeza so easily. He had previously offered Trunks the position that Freeza held beside him so he had already acknowledged Trunk's power. He just overestimated the importance of the sword on Freeza's quick defeat.

In any case, Cold was focused on the sword because the sword had killed Freeza. Freeza had no such distraction. All he had was a SSJ in front of him and the memory of Goku, which is why he was scared. Cold never looked scared, though, except right before dying.

[Bilbo_Swaggins]

I know some have already mentioned a few things along these lines but whatever, I'm late to the party:

#1: There have been very few people who can actually sense the extent of someones full power with out them actually powering up. We see Korrin having an ability similar to this in the Cell saga. Since it was never stated directly all we can do is guess and speculate as to whether Beerus has a similar ability. To say, " Oh he's the God of Destruction, of course he does," is just absurd. Whis is stated implicitly to be THE fastest thing in the universe, though he himself takes longer to move across universe than compared to Goku's IT.We don't just assume that Whis has IT as well, regardless of him being the #1 being in our Db-Universe.

So, claiming that Beerus is able to sense Goku's MAX power is stupid. Even though Beerus was never impressed by Goku's ssj3, he indeed was intrigued that Goku had that much power tucked away(ssj3); furthering the idea that Beerus can't sense the max power level of someone just because.

#2: It is also a much more logical approach, not that Dbz follows logical always, that Goku was suppressed. Yes, he WAS training on King Kai's planet, WAS. King Kai had Goku hiding because he didn't want Beerus and Goku to fight. Any time people are hiding in DBZ, they always suppress their PL's.

Just a few ideas as to why it makes more sense that Beerus is judging Goku based off his currently power level in base. I'm not saying that Goku CAN beat Freeza-saga Freeza. I'm just saying that Beerus is basing his statement off Goku's suppressed power level.

[Hitiro]

I know some have already mentioned a few things along these lines but whatever, I'm late to the party:

#1: There have been very few people who can actually sense the extent of someones full power with out them actually powering up. We see Korrin having an ability similar to this in the Cell saga. Since it was never stated directly all we can do is guess and speculate as to whether Beerus has a similar ability. To say, " Oh he's the God of Destruction, of course he does," is just absurd.

The characters can make estimations on battle power but to truly know if someone is using full power they need to be at full power. I don't think anybody is speculating whether Beerus could estimate his opponents power well. What people are trying to say is Goku, at the time he was being observed by Beerus, was already demonstrating his full battle power.

Whis is stated implicitly to be THE fastest thing in the universe, though he himself takes longer to move across universe than compared to Goku's IT.We don't just assume that Whis has IT as well, regardless of him being the #1 being in our Db-Universe.

But IT is not speed. It's a teleporting technique. So why would anyone assume Whis has IT as well? If I could teleport from one point to the next that doesn't make me the fastest person on the planet because if I were to actually run in a 100m race against, say, Usain Bolt, I would have my ass handed to me.

So, claiming that Beerus is able to sense Goku's MAX power is stupid. Even though Beerus was never impressed by Goku's ssj3, he indeed was intrigued that Goku had that much power tucked away(ssj3); furthering the idea that Beerus can't sense the max power level of someone just because.

Claiming Beerus can sense Goku's max power when Goku is at max power isn't stupid though. Because as we see throughout the series if someone is using 100% the characters understand that. Perhaps it gives them some describable feeling like when you're eating. When you eat you don't know how much of the food in front of you is going to fill you up. You can hazard a guess that you can manage the plate full in front of you but once you've eaten to your limit you know you're at your limit because you feel this sense of fullness. So sensing Ki is probably something akin to this feeling. You don't know somebodies full power but you can hazard a guess and once they reach their full power you get the feeling that they're at their maximum. But transformations are a different kettle of fish. If Goku is at max power in his base form there is no way to know how much stronger he would be once transformed unless you have prior experience with his max power in his other transformations or, if the transformations are multipliers, they could work out how powerful Goku could be with SSJ by applying the maths. If this is his max power and SSJ is 50x stronger then he should be this strong as a SSJ at full power, for instance.

#2: It is also a much more logical approach, not that Dbz follows logical always, that Goku was suppressed. Yes, he WAS training on King Kai's planet, WAS. King Kai had Goku hiding because he didn't want Beerus and Goku to fight. Any time people are hiding in DBZ, they always suppress their PL's.

Just a few ideas as to why it makes more sense that Beerus is judging Goku based off his currently power level in base. I'm not saying that Goku CAN beat Freeza-saga Freeza. I'm just saying that Beerus is basing his statement off Goku's suppressed power level.

The issue is in story telling we would have been given a clear indication that Goku could have beaten Freeza if he actually could have. These lines aren't just made to be said on a whim. They actually have a reason for being said. If they didn't mean anything by Beerus saying that Goku couldn't beat Freeza then there would be no reason for the dialogue to be there. The dialogue is there to indicate something to the audience. Now if they wanted to take the "suppressed" route they would also have indicated as such. Goku or Kaio would have said something along the lines of "Well, I/Goku may not be able to beat Freeza as he is now but he is suppressed." Furthermore I highly doubt Beerus would make such a comment if Goku wasn't at his full power as Beerus, like any character who can sense Ki, would know that Goku is suppressing his power. So Beerus would have probably made the observation himself.

[Pocket-God]

Meh, Base Goku one-shots, Beerus doesn't know what he's talking about

[Darkprince410]

#2: It is also a much more logical approach, not that Dbz follows logical always, that Goku was suppressed. Yes, he WAS training on King Kai's planet, WAS. King Kai had Goku hiding because he didn't want Beerus and Goku to fight. Any time people are hiding in DBZ, they always suppress their PL's.

We've seen before where people can readily tell when someone is hiding their strength without there being any external signs whatsoever. Look at Kuririn for example, being able to tell in the Cell Saga that Trunks was holding back a large portion of his strength. He wasn't able to gauge how much, precisely, but he could tell that Trunks was holding back a lot. Why would it be unreasonable then for Beerus to be able to do the same, and just be more proficient at it?

The simple fact of the matter is though is that such statements, unless there's reason ahead of time or after the fact to discount it, have no reason to not be taken at face value. There's no reason to disagree with Beerus's statement because there's nothing saying he's unreliable in such circumstances, and there's nothing that Goku's done to show or indicate he's stronger in his base form than Freeza at the time, so no reason to disregard Beerus's comment.

[Pocket-God]

Wait doesn't it go-

Base Vegeta(Buu Saga) >>> Pui Pui > Supreme Kai >>>> Frieza
Unless of course Supreme Kai had no Idea what he was talking about and was scared for no real reason meaning Pui Pui was weak sauce.

[Darkprince410]

Wait doesn't it go-

Base Vegeta(Buu Saga) >>> Pui Pui > Supreme Kai >>>> Frieza
Unless of course Supreme Kai had no Idea what he was talking about and was scared for no real reason meaning Pui Pui was weak sauce.

There's enough anecdotal evidence that Babi-di's men (or at least those completely affected by the Ma-jin charm) didn't have ki that could be readily detected, so Kaioushin wouldn't have been able to judge Pui Pui's strength based on sensing him. In addition, Kaioushin's general fears about Babi-di's men stemmed more from the reputation that Babi-di had that he only recruited the strongest fighters in the universe, and that Pui Pui is a danger because of that.

Lastly, Goku reacted in surprise and amazement when he learned that Buu was capable of taking out individuals strong enough to take out Freeza in a single attack (which the East Kaioushin was one of those individuals). If Goku and the others were stronger than Kaioushin in their base form, then it wouldn't make sense for him to find it amazing that someone would be able to take the Kaioushin.

[Pocket-God]

Oh yeah I suppose that's true, you make a pretty good point.