DEATH BATTLE: Majin Boo vs Kirby!

[rereboy]

How do we know for a fact that they're ‘millions of times stronger’?

Obviously Boo is stronger than Freeza. But what proof do we have to make that ‘millions’?

The best measurable indication we have is thanks to battle powers.

The fighter with the highest battle power in those feats is first form freeza with a BP of 500.000 and we know that ssj goku in namek had a BP of 150 million. And kid buu was way stronger than that.

In Freeza's case it might not actually reach millions of times stronger, but I was also talking about tao pai pai and saiyan arc Goku. So, in freeza' case, it might be more correct to talk about thousands of times and millions of times regarding the others.

In any case, I think my point is clear.

[Puto]

But we DON'T have battle powers from anything after Freeza, so how do we know that Boo is MILLIONS of times stronger than Freeza? What proof do we have that he isn't, say, just 100 times stronger than Freeza?

[rereboy]

But we DON'T have battle powers from anything after Freeza, so how do we know that Boo is MILLIONS of times stronger than Freeza? What proof do we have that he isn't, say, just 100 times stronger than Freeza?

Because 150 million is 300 times 500.000.

Meaning that ssj goku in namek is 300 times stronger than first form freeza.

And if he had ssj3 at that time, we would be 4 times stronger than that, and 300 times 4 is 1200. Meaning that he would be 1200 times stronger than first form freeza.

But we know that goku got a lot stronger in the cell arc even without new ssj states. We have no accurate way to determine that but even assuming that he only doubled his base power, that would make him 2400 stronger than first form freeza in the buu arc.

So, like I said, thousands of times stronger. To someone like tao pai pai its millions.

[Puto]

I wasn't referring to first-form Freeza. What proof do we have that Boo is [x] times stronger than Freeza? And I'm referring to final-form Freeza here, not heavily suppressed Freeza.

Also, additionally, what proof do we have that power levels are proportional to lifting strength or destructive power or whatever?

You're working under the assumption that 'if x can destroy a planet, then y with power level equal to x*1000 can destroy 1000 planets at once'. That is NOT a fact that's backed up by any kinds of logic. In fact, let's think about that.

Saiyan-arc Vegeta has a power level of 18000. This is a fact.
Saiyan-arc Vegeta has the ability to destroy the Earth, if his words during the fight with Gokū are to be believed (and we have no reason not to).
The Farmer with Shotgun from DBZ episode 1 has a power level of 5. This is a fact.

18000/5 = 3600. The Earth has 5.972*10^24 kg of mass. By this assumption, that means that the Farmer with Shotgun has the ability to destroy any object with 5.972*10^24/3600=1.66*10^21 kg of mass. Farmer with Shotgun can blow up a continent—confirmed!

Except no, he can't, which means that power levels aren't proportional with how much one can destroy.

[mysticboy]

Except no, he can't, which means that power levels aren't proportional with how much one can destroy.

How do you know he can't?

[RandomGuy96]

This is the third time they've undercut DB characters. I think it's best they'd just stop using DBZ characters until they realize that power-scaling is the best way to judge a DBZ character's power, not just by feats.

I think using feats is the only way to judge DBZ characters. Screw Attack does their best on showing off characters to people who are not familiar with each character. How would you explain how powerful Buu is without saying that he is 1000X stronger then Freeza and Cell to someone who never read or watch the series.

Its the worst way to judge.

The most impressive measurable strengh feat in dragon ball is tao pai pai' thrown pillar, the most impressive measurable speed feat is son goku' crossing snake way in little more than a day and the most impressive measurable destruction feat is freeza's easy destruction of a planet while in his first form.

All these feats are done by characters millions of times weaker than fighters at the end of the series. Se either we use power scaling or we grossly misrepresent how powerful they are supposed to be.

Nope. The most impressive measurable strength feat is whenever someone smacks away a planet buster, because those blasts work on force and kinetic energy (alternatively, Goku casually tossing giant Piccolo). The most impressive measurable speed feat is Piccolo's beam reaching the moon near-instantly when there are characters even at the time who can outrun Piccolo's beams. The most impressive measurable travel speed feat is SS Gotenks flying around the Earth several times. The most impressive measurable destructive feat is Pure Buu's star-busting level Vanishing Ball that he produced while suppressed (or Vegeta and Goku's Supernova-level ki blasts if you count DBO).

There are many more impressive feats if you count the anime, though.

[Puto]

Except no, he can't, which means that power levels aren't proportional with how much one can destroy.

How do you know he can't?

Because... he's a regular human without any special ability? Are you really trying to argue that the farmer with shotgun is powerful enough to blow up a continent?

[mysticboy]

Because... he's a regular human without any special ability? Are you really trying to argue that the farmer with shotgun is powerful enough to blow up a continent?

Exactly. Regular ass human with no special ability nor ki control. Satan was damn near killed by a bullet and he's a lot stronger than farmer w/ shotgun. So bringing that up doesn't really help your argument.

[RandomGuy96]

No, the farmer can't blow up a continent. Daimao could barely destroy a city, and he was stronger than Roshi, the most insanely skilled ki manipulator on Earth at the time. However, fact is that refusing to power scale AT ALL is dumb, and gets you stuff like Buu being weaker than fucking Raditz (by their logic).

They also cherry picked Kirby's feats while refusing to look at Buu's. His second weakest incarnation actually does have impressive destructive feats, even while only using a fraction of his power. Also, by their own logic, half of his incarnations are several times above that and also faster than light.

[Puto]

Because... he's a regular human without any special ability? Are you really trying to argue that the farmer with shotgun is powerful enough to blow up a continent?

Exactly. Regular ass human with no special ability nor ki control. Satan was damn near killed by a bullet and he's a lot stronger than farmer w/ shotgun. So bringing that up doesn't really help your argument.

I don't think you understood the point of my post. It's a reduction to absurdity—proving that something is false by assuming it is true, and reaching an absurd conclusion starting from that assumption. Basically, the whole point is that power levels and the level of destruction you can cause aren't proportional. By starting with the assumption that they are, I reached the absurd conclusion that the farmer has enough power to blow up a continent—which effectively proves that they aren't.

[Puto]

No, the farmer can't blow up a continent. Daimao could barely destroy a city, and he was stronger than Roshi, the most insanely skilled ki manipulator on Earth at the time. However, fact is that refusing to power scale AT ALL is dumb, and gets you stuff like Buu being weaker than fucking Raditz (by their logic).

They also cherry picked Kirby's feats while refusing to look at Buu's. His second weakest incarnation actually does have impressive destructive feats, even while only using a fraction of his power. Also, by their own logic, half of his incarnations are several times above that and also faster than light.

Boo's most impressive destructive feat on-screen WAS destroying a planet though. You can argue all you want that he's strong enough to blow up a galaxy in one shot or whatever, but the fact is, that is not something we're ever shown.

[RandomGuy96]

No, the farmer can't blow up a continent. Daimao could barely destroy a city, and he was stronger than Roshi, the most insanely skilled ki manipulator on Earth at the time. However, fact is that refusing to power scale AT ALL is dumb, and gets you stuff like Buu being weaker than fucking Raditz (by their logic).

They also cherry picked Kirby's feats while refusing to look at Buu's. His second weakest incarnation actually does have impressive destructive feats, even while only using a fraction of his power. Also, by their own logic, half of his incarnations are several times above that and also faster than light.

Boo's most impressive destructive feat on-screen WAS destroying a planet though. You can argue all you want that he's strong enough to blow up a galaxy in one shot or whatever, but the fact is, that is not something we're ever shown.

His "planet buster" had destructive power in excess of what is needed to destroy a small star, and in the anime, which DB uses, we see him destroy several stars. Then we have Vegeta stating that Pure Buu wasn't anywhere near full power when he did that, and then the other forms bring indirectly stated as many times stronger than Pure Buu.

And screw this "on-screen" BS. The way ki in DBZ works pretty much makes power scaling a necessity. Unless you want to seriously argue that BOZ Piccolo is stronger than Super Vegetto.

[Puto]

No, the farmer can't blow up a continent. Daimao could barely destroy a city, and he was stronger than Roshi, the most insanely skilled ki manipulator on Earth at the time. However, fact is that refusing to power scale AT ALL is dumb, and gets you stuff like Buu being weaker than fucking Raditz (by their logic).

They also cherry picked Kirby's feats while refusing to look at Buu's. His second weakest incarnation actually does have impressive destructive feats, even while only using a fraction of his power. Also, by their own logic, half of his incarnations are several times above that and also faster than light.

Boo's most impressive destructive feat on-screen WAS destroying a planet though. You can argue all you want that he's strong enough to blow up a galaxy in one shot or whatever, but the fact is, that is not something we're ever shown.

His "planet buster" had destructive power in excess of what is needed to destroy a small star

I don't remember this ever being mentioned. Genuinely curious—can you give me the exact lines where this is stated?

[RandomGuy96]

It isn't stated, it is shown. In the anime, we saw him destroying stars to "darken" the galaxy. In the manga, his Vanishing Ball had to be star-level based on how the destruction of Earth was drawn.

Now, one could argue that this "doesn't count", because maybe Toriyama didn't MEAN for Buu's blast to be such complete and utter overkill to the Earth. But there's three problems with that. One, Death Battle does calculations like this all the time, and it's still a thing that happened in the manga. Two, if you think only statements count, then we have Cell stating he can bust a solar system (confirmed in multiple guidebooks and video games, plus a website and DBO's timeline). Which makes Buu far more powerful than he'd be if we only took his star-buster into account. Three, Death Battle uses the anime.

[rereboy]

Nope. The most impressive measurable strength feat is whenever someone smacks away a planet buster, because those blasts work on force and kinetic energy (alternatively, Goku casually tossing giant Piccolo). The most impressive measurable speed feat is Piccolo's beam reaching the moon near-instantly when there are characters even at the time who can outrun Piccolo's beams. The most impressive measurable travel speed feat is SS Gotenks flying around the Earth several times. The most impressive measurable destructive feat is Pure Buu's star-busting level Vanishing Ball that he produced while suppressed (or Vegeta and Goku's Supernova-level ki blasts if you count DBO).

There are many more impressive feats if you count the anime, though.

None of the feats you mentioned are actually reasonably measurable because they don't give us numbers/data to measure.

Your strength feat is a relative feat that only tells us that somebody is stronger or close in power to another somebody (and tossing giant Piccolo requires less strength than what Tao Pai Pai did).

Your speed feat is more an example of cinematic timing than anything else (since such level of speed is contradicted later on and since its not reasonable to expect the author to follow the rules of physics regarding the distance of the moon to Earth and speed of light) and the manga doesn't give us any numbers regarding that or regarding Gotenks flying around.

And your destruction feat only gives a feat of destroying a planet, which had already been done by first form Freeza, without giving us any numbers.

In any case, its not really relevant which ones are the best for the point I was making.

I wasn't referring to first-form Freeza. What proof do we have that Boo is [x] times stronger than Freeza? And I'm referring to final-form Freeza here, not heavily suppressed Freeza.

And why exactly do you care about final form Freeza for the purposes of this discussion? We know that first form Freeza is a planet buster since he destroyed planet Vegeta in that form. That is confirmed in the manga. So, regarding the discussion of Kid Buu being only classified as a planet buster, only first form Freeza is relevant, which is why I always only mentioned first form Freeza. Final form Freeza is irrelevant for what I was saying.

Also, additionally, what proof do we have that power levels are proportional to lifting strength or destructive power or whatever?

Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Guh…Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken!”
Goku: “You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P14.1
Context: after Goku tells Ginyu to watch his scouter
Ginyu: "Kukkukku... I don't have to look at my scouter. You should most likely be able to raise it up to 85,000."

Chapter: 285 (DBZ 91), P1.2-3, P2.2
Context: as Goku continues to use the Kaio-ken
Ginyu: "Twe... 120,000... 130,000... 140,000... It's sti... sti... still rising... !!!! It... it can't be... 160,000... "Eigh... 180,000...?! Un…unbelievable…Th-this is your true power…?!!”

As you can see, we know that Kaioken (Kaioken x2) doubles everything, namely power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force. And when Goku used Kaioken in Namek, he went from a BP that Ginyu estimated to be 85.000 to basically double that (Ginyu was probably off by 5000 in his estimation). So, Kaioken doubles everything and that is translated in a scouter as double the BP. So, Kaioken = twice the power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force = twice the BP.

There's simply no better proof or a better demonstration of a correlation that this.

You're working under the assumption that 'if x can destroy a planet, then y with power level equal to x*1000 can destroy 1000 planets at once'. That is NOT a fact that's backed up by any kinds of logic. In fact, let's think about that.

Saiyan-arc Vegeta has a power level of 18000. This is a fact.
Saiyan-arc Vegeta has the ability to destroy the Earth, if his words during the fight with Gokū are to be believed (and we have no reason not to).
The Farmer with Shotgun from DBZ episode 1 has a power level of 5. This is a fact.

18000/5 = 3600. The Earth has 5.972*10^24 kg of mass. By this assumption, that means that the Farmer with Shotgun has the ability to destroy any object with 5.972*10^24/3600=1.66*10^21 kg of mass. Farmer with Shotgun can blow up a continent—confirmed!

Except no, he can't, which means that power levels aren't proportional with how much one can destroy.

That's all correct... if you actually think that Toriyama is an author who is coherent and meticulous enough to accurately depict to that extent the rules of physics of the real world and accurately correspond the levels of powers of his characters with the exact real world energy needed to do such a thing... He's not.

His intent in regards to a correlation between power level and destructive force is what I posted above. The fact that that not entirely accurate regarding real world physics and energy is meaningless since he never really cared about that.

[RandomGuy96]

Nope. The most impressive measurable strength feat is whenever someone smacks away a planet buster, because those blasts work on force and kinetic energy (alternatively, Goku casually tossing giant Piccolo). The most impressive measurable speed feat is Piccolo's beam reaching the moon near-instantly when there are characters even at the time who can outrun Piccolo's beams. The most impressive measurable travel speed feat is SS Gotenks flying around the Earth several times. The most impressive measurable destructive feat is Pure Buu's star-busting level Vanishing Ball that he produced while suppressed (or Vegeta and Goku's Supernova-level ki blasts if you count DBO).

There are many more impressive feats if you count the anime, though.

None of the feats you mentioned are actually reasonably measurable because they don't give us numbers/data to measure.

Your strength feat is a relative feat that only tells us that somebody is stronger or close in power to another somebody (and tossing giant Piccolo requires less strength than what Tao Pai Pai did).

Your speed feat is more an example of cinematic timing than anything else (since such level of speed is contradicted later on and since its not reasonable to expect the author to follow the rules of physics regarding the distance of the moon to Earth and speed of light) and the manga doesn't give us any numbers regarding that or regarding Gotenks flying around.

And your destruction feat only gives a feat of destroying a planet, which had already been done by first form Freeza, without giving us any numbers.

In any case, its not really relevant which ones are the best for the point I was making.

No, they're all somewhat measurable. For example, you need to be WAY stronger than Tao to catch and throw an attack with enough force to destroy a planet. And Pure Buu's Vanishing Ball was measurable by the explosion and the debris. It wasn't just a planet buster. It was a star buster. Even if it wasn't, Piccolo's planet-level overkill of the moon would still be more impressive than anything Freeza did in the manga.

It does give us a time frame for Gotenks, and as I've said before, that's not cinematic timing. Even if it WAS, it's still a speed feat.

[rereboy]

I should have said that its not measurable enough, imo. But whatever, like I said, that's not really my point.

[RandomGuy96]

I should have said that its not measurable enough, imo. But whatever, like I said, that's not really my point.

Oh, okay. But my point stands. Pure Buu's planet buster is easy enough to measure, and so is Piccolo's moon buster. Even on the low end, they're far more impressive than anything Freeza did on-panel. Because 1st form Freeza never destroyed a planet in the manga (unless you count EOB).

[rereboy]

We don't see the details of him doing it the manga, but its confirmed that he did it with his first form in the manga, which is what matters for the planet buster classification.

I could even be pushing Saiyan arc Vegeta as a planet buster since he said he was gonna destroy Earth and was never contradicted, but I'm talking about first form Freeza because we know that the planet really was destroyed by him (in his first form).

[RandomGuy96]

We don't see the details of him doing it the manga, but its confirmed that he did it with his first form in the manga, which is what matters for the planet buster classification.

I could even be pushing Saiyan arc Vegeta as a planet buster since he said he was gonna destroy Earth and was never contradicted, but I'm talking about first form Freeza because we know that the planet really was destroyed by him (in his first form).

Yet, we explicitly see Saiyan arc Piccolo busting the moon, and the explosion is measurable at planet-busting level. We also don't know HOW 1st form Freeza destroyed a planet. He could have just "cheated" by shooting the core.