The Shadow Dragon/Dragon Ball Overuse Punisment:A Dumb Idea?

[dbzfan7]

Wow. That post was very insightful. I really liked the Shadow Dragon idea, but yeah it's hard to argue against this. I guess maybe perhaps it'd work if no one knew the consequence was possible?

[Saiga]

Just because Dende, Popo and others didn't mention the consequences of over using the dragon balls, is the same argument about Battle of Gods. Vegeta knew about Beerus but didn't say anything either.. does that make the whole 'God of Destruction' thing a dumb idea too?

Personally I think having some kind of consequence for over using the Dragon Balls a fantastic idea. They might not have used them irresponsibly, but they sure has hell over used them. They were even going to give them away as a prize in Battle of Gods!

That's not even remotely the same. Vegeta struggled to even remember Beerus, and once he realized Beerus posed a threat to Earth he acted immediately. The fact that those who knew about the dangers said nothing simply can't be explained - it makes no sense. So Vegeta's actions are a great contrast here.

The moment he realizes Beerus is a threat = immediate action.

Dende/Popo/Kaioshin knowing the Shadow Dragons are a threat years in advance = do absolutely nothing.

Kame-sen'nin's speech explains why the idea sucks. It just ruins the entire story Toriyama created.

I didn't even remember that. I knew the concept really felt like it went against the spirit of Dragon Ball, and that just further cements the idea. Hell, watching that I'm not sure my idea of Shadow Dragons I proposed could work.

Not strictly, no, but one could argue that overuse is a form of misuse. Anything in excess becomes a vice.

I would argue that they weren't overused either, only used as necessary.

I feel the vagueness is what makes it work, at least on the Buu arc's end. If Elder Kaioshin simply knew that in some way the natural order will be screwed up, but not exactly how, then he can't exactly be held accountable.

Yeah, the problem is that GT takes away any possibility that Elder Kaioshin doesn't know what he's talking about. They specifically point out that comment was about the Shadow Dragons, which absolutely destroys it. However I still feel the comment isn't begging to be expanded on as some others feel - I think the most natural interpretation of that seen is that Kaioshin is just being a stick in the mud.

The Dragon Balls are still enablers to that though. They want to fight strong guys, which leads to lots of death and suffering, which leads to needing the Dragon Balls. This is the entire reason they needed to be used at all in the Cell arc and the Buu arc.

While this is true, focusing on the Dragon Balls ignores the real problem. And if you just take away the Dragon Balls or punish their use, there's no guarantee that Goku will stop allowing threats to happen - he let Vegeta go because he wanted a rematch, while in his mind the Dragon Balls were no longer an option. So I think that shows that the Dragon Balls aren't really enablers for Goku, he'll do it anyway, and if the story wants to address that problem they should do it directly and maybe address the Dragon Balls as a part of that greater problem.

I agree, those are all quite problematic. That's still an issue with execution though (at least in regards to "the Dragon Balls being overused has a very bad consequence"). Simply have nobody know exactly what is going on, and have the Dragons themselves explain it. Nobody looks overly negligible.

I've always felt that GT's beginning would work as the beginning to the Evil Dragons arc. Don't have any Black Star Dragon Balls. Have Dende simply seal the balls away at the Palace, knowing that they're near their breaking point, and then Pilaf manages to get up there and breaks the camel's back.

Well, to me I define the idea as "The Dragon Balls have consequences to teach a lesson" and the lesson makes it a bad idea. I do like those proposed solutions, due to the lack of negligence, tying everything together and most importantly Dende doing something proactive the moment he sees something wrong with the balls.

Except if you create a threat that could destroy all life by using the DB's even for good, wouldn't that be irresponsible? Sometimes the proper thing would be to let someone go.

Indeed, but the heroes weren't actually aware of that to begin with. The implication was that they simply shouldn't be wishing people back because it's "wrong" without knowing of any quite frankly unrelated consequences. I couldn't disagree more with this idea. Since the discussion has been moved here, I guess it's appropriate to answer what you've said in the other thread here as well.

Saiga, I have to disagree with that long post. While it doesn't seem like something Toriyama would come up with, having the DBs bite them in the ass is a good story. I agree to an extent that using the DBs to bring back people from the dead is the right thing, that doesn't mean I think story wise it's always appropriate. Just because a lot of people died and not everyone could be brought back doesn't make something a down ending. Having lasting consequences is just good storytelling because it means there are lasting consequences and no easy fixes.

See, I'm not totally against the idea of the Shadow Dragons, I'm against the idea of blaming the heroes for their actions. As I said in the end of my post, if the Shadow Dragons were portrayed as being wrong in their own reasoning, it'd be easier to swallow. The end result is that the Dragon Balls would still have consequences (which I'm just not all that fond of) and they'd have to stop using them, but it would avoid a lot of nasty implications that the Dragon Balls were being misused when they really weren't.

Which then got retconned when the Namekian DB's were introduced. The DB's just naturally split up after being used.

No it didn't. The Namekian DBs don't scatter, they fall to the ground. That's because only God introduced that idea. The manga was surprisingly consistent about this.

Not really. Much of the damage was dispelled by defeating each of them. The one last wish was a favor.

The negative energy was solved, yes, but the Earth was absolutely ruined. Rather than rebuild, they had Shenron undo it. Hell, they actually got Shenron to revert the damage done from the Super 17 arc as well, which was exactly the wish that brought about the Shadow Dragons in the first place! So in the end, the consequences really aren't that great after all (and a Hero's Legacy shows the Dragon Balls come back, meaning there were no lasting consequences).

How, how is it a bad idea in theory? Disregard execution what is so wrong with putting a good limitation on your deus ex machine balls? How is this in any way one of the WORST parts of the show. You've made some good points, but to say putting a limit on a magical object to keep it from being used in order to have a clean neding is one of the worse aspects of the show is ridiculous.

The Dragon Balls already had limits on them, like time limits and wish restrictions. I'd prefer to see more of that than implying the heroes have been doing bad things by bringing back innocent victims.

So something like the Dragon Balls losing their power from the usage, or villains attacking while the Dragon Balls are in a dormant state, etcetera, works much better for me.

Your ginormous post is just you desperately searching for reasons to hate on one of the better aspects of the show and cherry picking facts.

Not even remotely true. I'd prefer if in your future response, you refrain from making assumptions about what I'm doing, because you don't know me and you're simply incorrect. Respond to the actual argument, please.

This was not searching for reasons, this was all a natural result of watching the GT and what stuck out to me. That doesn't make sense to me, anyway. Why would I hate something in the first place if I didn't have a reason for it?

Every limitation that was ever on the DB's was eventually lifted. And what exactly doesn't make sense about feeling that they are overused?

Not every limitation. The only limitations ever lifted were the number of wishes on the Earth balls (but there was still a limitation when using mass revivals) and the no mass revival rule on the Namekian ball. True, the Namekian balls were introduced without the single revival rule of the Earth DBs, but the Earth DBs never got over that. Again, I think coming up with new limitations or exploiting the existing one would be a better solution.

If there's anything i'd be able to add to this, it's the whole Elder Kaioshin's vague warning in the Boo ark.
How exactly do you think Goku would react if he had said "You must not use the Dragon Balls! To overuse them will bring about the terrible and super powerful Shadow Dragons, Dragons of such power, they even put Boo to shame!" Goku would get super excited, and sometime after defeating Boo, would use the Dragon Balls as much as possible to ensure these new, strong Shadow Dragons would pop up, simply so he has a new challenge, irregardless of the consequences.
Personally, Elder Kaioshin had the better idea NOT going into detail.

That's actually both a good and profoundly depressing point you've made there. Still, Kaioshin didn't have to warn Goku directly, or explained that the Shadow Dragons or strong enemies. The negative energy that pollutes the universe would've been enough, and he still didn't try very hard to prevent it from happening.

I think the biggest problem is that most of the dangers come not from the Dragon Balls but from Goku always being allowed to have his way. The series never addresses this.

The part that rubs me the wrong way is Goku and co. deciding who lives and who dies. "Bring back everyone killed, aside from the bad ones." Congrats Goku/Bulma/Yamcha/Vegeta/Etc. Not only have you decided to play God, but you are putting yourself in a position where you are picking and choosing who deserves to live. The old Kaioshin seemed to be of the same opinion. It's against the natural order. People die. It's tragic and unfortunate, but it's a part of life. And circumventing that en masse every time something goes wrong, while their reasonings behind it are laudable, should not be without cost, otherwise it takes away from the very concept of death.

The playing God stuff is pretty skeevy, but I don't thin that's what Kaioshin had a problem with. That specifically is never really delved into, by anyone. And to be fair to the heroes, they had a good reason for doing this. It wasn't "only these people deserve to live" but "we need to word the wish this way to exclude the people who would just invalidate this wish by killing everyone again". The purpose of that wish was to avoid bringing back serious threats, and I think that's a pretty necessary move. Unless they can be more specific, which... they probably can, actually. Given that they moved everyone but Freeza and Goku specifically from Namek. Which is weird, because I think it's slightly implied that such a broad wording is necessary in the cases of the revivals. That's something I'd definitely like to see touched up on, but I don't think it warrants a threat like the Shadow Dragons.

I just have to disagree that death should be something that can't be reversed. To me, reviving the dead is absolutely no different from saving the living. "Don't bring them back, it's not natural" sounds the same to me as "your life could be saved by medicine, but we won't allow it" that some people in the real world stick to. I don't agree with that one bit, so I suppose ultimately we'll have to agree to disagree on whether that's the right thing to do.

Wow. That post was very insightful. I really liked the Shadow Dragon idea, but yeah it's hard to argue against this. I guess maybe perhaps it'd work if no one knew the consequence was possible?

Thanks. As Zephyr pointed out, it's possible to write it in a way so that nobody knew this was coming at all. And in truth, that would solve a very big part of the problem. I don't think it fixes everything, though. But I'd say that would be a good start in doing the idea correctly, and absolutely necessary for it.

[ABED]

Not every limitation. The only limitations ever lifted were the number of wishes on the Earth balls (but there was still a limitation when using mass revivals) and the no mass revival rule on the Namekian ball. True, the Namekian balls were introduced without the single revival rule of the Earth DBs, but the Earth DBs never got over that.

Yes, any limitation that mattered. They can wish people back regardless of the number of times, there are multiple wishes, and the Namekian DBs can bring back an unlimited number of people.

Again, I think coming up with new limitations or exploiting the existing one would be a better solution.

While a retcon like in GT isn't ideal, that was the point, it's a limitation that made sense.

That's not even remotely the same. Vegeta struggled to even remember Beerus

How would you forget someone as strong as Beerus?

I would argue that they weren't overused either, only used as necessary.

That's not at issue, but they were still overused. A limitation could still have been used to increase the drama. Risk more negative energy or bring someone back.

Respond to the actual argument, please.

I did, numerous times, and given what your arguments are, the conclusion I reached is that you were reaching.

I'd prefer to see more of that than implying the heroes have been doing bad things by bringing back innocent victims.

That wasn't the implication. They were saying that constantly using them is a negative and could pose more harm than good. Toriyama nor Toei weren't saying, how dare you bring innocents back.

The negative energy was solved, yes, but the Earth was absolutely ruined. Rather than rebuild, they had Shenron undo it. Hell, they actually got Shenron to revert the damage done from the Super 17 arc as well, which was exactly the wish that brought about the Shadow Dragons in the first place! So in the end, the consequences really aren't that great after all (and a Hero's Legacy shows the Dragon Balls come back, meaning there were no lasting consequences).

That was the wish that broke the camel's back, it wasn't that wish in particular. The DBs came back after 100 years and Earthlings proving that they didn't need them to protect themselves and put everything right.

No it didn't. The Namekian DBs don't scatter, they fall to the ground. That's because only God introduced that idea. The manga was surprisingly consistent about this.

They fell when The Grand Elder died. I don't recall that being the case when they were used on Earth.

Indeed, but the heroes weren't actually aware of that to begin with. The implication was that they simply shouldn't be wishing people back because it's "wrong" without knowing of any quite frankly unrelated consequences. I couldn't disagree more with this idea. Since the discussion has been moved here, I guess it's appropriate to answer what you've said in the other thread here as well.

You inferred the idea. They weren't implying the DB gang was immoral for wanting to wish people back. The lack of known consequences is a problem with Toriyama's storytelling, not GT's. I have no idea what you mean by "quite frankly unrelated consequences".

[Saiga]

Yes, any limitation that mattered. They can wish people back regardless of the number of times, there are multiple wishes, and the Namekian DBs can bring back an unlimited number of people.

Not any limitation that mattered. There is still the dormant period of the Dragon Balls. The Namekian DBs do have far less limitations after the multi-revival was introduced to them, but that was necessary to get out of the mess caused by Pure Boo. Unless you think the Earth should be gone forever or all the population remain dead.

While a retcon like in GT isn't ideal, that was the point, it's a limitation that made sense.

What retcon are you referring to, the scattering one? I'd argue that doesn't make sense, because only the Earth DBs did that and we already had a reason for it. The scattering also doesn't really guarantee they won't be used that often.

How would you forget someone as strong as Beerus?

How does Vegeta know exactly how strong Beerus is? He only knows that he's stronger than his father, apparently that's the only meeting he had. He was surprised that Beerus was strong enough to beat Goku in two blows. Also, I don't necessarily think that Vegeta forgetting Beerus is logical, but it doesn't change that BoG came up with a reason for Vegeta not to do something about it sooner.

That's not at issue, but they were still overused. A limitation could still have been used to increase the drama. Risk more negative energy or bring someone back.

Well, that'd still mean they had to have this problem brought up before the Shadow Dragons actually happened.

I did, numerous times, and given what your arguments are, the conclusion I reached is that you were reaching.

I meant that responding to the argument is the only thing you should be doing. Not making up assumptions about me, because your conclusions are faulty. Just leave that alone completely.

That wasn't the implication. They were saying that constantly using them is a negative and could pose more harm than good. Toriyama nor Toei weren't saying, how dare you bring innocents back.

That was the implication, because the characters were outright chewing the heroes out for "mis using the balls". However, the only way they were using the Dragon Balls was to revive people or as an answer to threats. So, ultimately, the implication is that they were wrong to do those things. Because they simply didn't know about these side effects, and weren't adequately warned, nothing else should have been expected from them.

[Rocketman]

I guess it depends on how selfish you consider some of the wishes. They don't "bring back all those the Red Ribbon Army killed", or the people killed by Nappa, or the people killed by Gero. The wish to bring back the Namekians only happened because they gambled on getting a wish from the Namekian balls, and bringing back Cell's victims was at least in part an attempt to weasel around and get Goku back, same as "Piccolo's victims" was to get back Roshi and Chaozu.

[ABED]

Congrats Goku/Bulma/Yamcha/Vegeta/Etc. Not only have you decided to play God, but you are putting yourself in a position where you are picking and choosing who deserves to live.

And? Aren't you doing the same thing when you fight and kill people like Freeza and Babidi? I've NEVER understood this point of view. First, I don't believe in god, and second, I don't think all lives are valuable. Some people shouldn't be alive, and not bringing back bad people is a perfectly moral wish if you're trying to preserve life.

[Kamiccolo9]

Congrats Goku/Bulma/Yamcha/Vegeta/Etc. Not only have you decided to play God, but you are putting yourself in a position where you are picking and choosing who deserves to live.

And? Aren't you doing the same thing when you fight and kill people like Freeza and Babidi? I've NEVER understood this point of view. First, I don't believe in god, and second, I don't think all lives are valuable. Some people shouldn't be alive, and not bringing back bad people is a perfectly moral wish if you're trying to preserve life.

And I disagree. I'm not going to get into a religious debate, since it would be off-topic, and ultimately beneficial to no one.

[ABED]

Congrats Goku/Bulma/Yamcha/Vegeta/Etc. Not only have you decided to play God, but you are putting yourself in a position where you are picking and choosing who deserves to live.

And? Aren't you doing the same thing when you fight and kill people like Freeza and Babidi? I've NEVER understood this point of view. First, I don't believe in god, and second, I don't think all lives are valuable. Some people shouldn't be alive, and not bringing back bad people is a perfectly moral wish if you're trying to preserve life.

And I disagree. I'm not going to get into a religious debate, since it would be off-topic, and ultimately beneficial to no one.

So this ultimately boils down to religious morality for you? I'm not making an issue out of this or looking down on you, just asking the question in earnest because I'm curious about your reason(s).

Not any limitation that mattered. There is still the dormant period of the Dragon Balls. The Namekian DBs do have far less limitations after the multi-revival was introduced to them, but that was necessary to get out of the mess caused by Pure Boo. Unless you think the Earth should be gone forever or all the population remain dead.

Yes, those limitations mattered. If you can wish someone back regardless of the number of times they've died and you have three wishes, a great limit on the DBs was that they could only bring back one person at a time. Story wise, things would have to be changed, but I don't think the limitation should've been lifted. It makes things too easy and makes it seem like Toriyama couldn't think of a way to make the ending happy. With his back up against the wall, he took away a natural limit for his mystical orbs, and essentially deus ex machina'ed his way to a happy ending. It's like Superman turning back time at the end of the first movie.

What retcon are you referring to, the scattering one? I'd argue that doesn't make sense, because only the Earth DBs did that and we already had a reason for it. The scattering also doesn't really guarantee they won't be used that often.

I wasn't referring to the scattering, but while we're on the subject, no it wasn't just the Earth's. The Namekian DB's did it as well at least in the anime. In the manga, they never showed the DB's scattering after being used, but they didn't show them falling either. That scene was a few quick panels and narration. You inferred that they just fell because of what happened on Namek, but Grand Elder had just died so it's a different context.

[Kamiccolo9]

So this ultimately boils down to religious morality for you? I'm not making an issue out of this or looking down on you, just asking the question in earnest because I'm curious about your reason(s).

I suppose. I'm going to quote Gandalf here: "“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.”

Freeza, Cell and Buu were direct threats that WERE killing people. They had to be stopped. I see no problem there.

Goku and Co. deciding from their lofty perch above that a certain subsection of humanity do not deserve to live because of their past actions does not sit well with me.

That's all I have to say about it.

[ABED]

So this ultimately boils down to religious morality for you? I'm not making an issue out of this or looking down on you, just asking the question in earnest because I'm curious about your reason(s).

I suppose. I'm going to quote Gandalf here: "“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.”

Freeza, Cell and Buu were direct threats that WERE killing people. They had to be stopped. I see no problem there.

Goku and Co. deciding from their lofty perch above that a certain subsection of humanity do not deserve to live because of their past actions does not sit well with me.

That's all I have to say about it.

Well, Tolkien was Christian so it's no surprise, and I don't base my views on the Lord of the Rings.

If I recall, one of the reasons Vegeta gives for phrasing it the way he did was because if they just brought back everyone, then Babidi comes back who started the problem in the first place.

[Kamiccolo9]

So this ultimately boils down to religious morality for you? I'm not making an issue out of this or looking down on you, just asking the question in earnest because I'm curious about your reason(s).

I suppose. I'm going to quote Gandalf here: "“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.”

Freeza, Cell and Buu were direct threats that WERE killing people. They had to be stopped. I see no problem there.

Goku and Co. deciding from their lofty perch above that a certain subsection of humanity do not deserve to live because of their past actions does not sit well with me.

That's all I have to say about it.

Well, Tolkien was Christian so it's no surprise, and I don't base my views on the Lord of the Rings.

If I recall, one of the reasons Vegeta gives for phrasing it the way he did was because if they just brought back everyone, then Babidi comes back who started the problem in the first place.

Because utilizing a quote from a world renowned work of literature is "basing my views of LotR." Right.

Like I said, I'm not going to debate this. We're already off topic, and I've explained my view as far as how it relates to the series. Any more would be irrelevant to the subject at hand. Good day.

[Cure Dragon 255]

There IS a point to that post. People seem to think that I'm just going to ignore their arguments. That post was meant to show that I DO listen to well though arguments.

I could have made it more clear though.

[KentalSSJ6]

Who cares about religious morals in Dragonball when the gods range from old pervs looking to cop a feel, a blue fatass with a sense of humor thats as poor as he is round, and a big green alien from a dying planet?

[ABED]

Because utilizing a quote from a world renowned work of literature is "basing my views of LotR." Right.

Not what I was going for. I could phrase it better, but I was merely pointing out that the even having a quote from Gandalf as opposed to a more explicitly religious figure isn't more likely to make me agree with the POV. I didn't mean to imply that you were basing your views on LotR.

[Kamiccolo9]

Because utilizing a quote from a world renowned work of literature is "basing my views of LotR." Right.

Not what I was going for. I could phrase it better, but I was merely pointing out that the even having a quote from Gandalf as opposed to a more explicitly religious figure isn't more likely to make me agree with the POV. I didn't mean to imply that you were basing your views on LotR.

Fair enough.
I'm not trying to persuade anyone of anything. I just gave my own view on the subject at hand.

[Saiga]

Gandalf: Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them?

Goku: Yes, actually.

Gandalf: Oh. Neat.

I guess it depends on how selfish you consider some of the wishes. They don't "bring back all those the Red Ribbon Army killed", or the people killed by Nappa, or the people killed by Gero. The wish to bring back the Namekians only happened because they gambled on getting a wish from the Namekian balls, and bringing back Cell's victims was at least in part an attempt to weasel around and get Goku back, same as "Piccolo's victims" was to get back Roshi and Chaozu.

I'm pretty sure they were shit out of luck with the Nappa thing - they held onto the balls to resurrect Goku, and then needed all the wishes on Namek to avoid dying. Then the mass revival won't work, because a year will pass before the Earth balls can be used again.

For the Red Ribbon Army, Goku's likely unaware of that possibility at the time. It's more his naivety than anything else. Bringing backs Cell's victims could not bring back Goku, since this was Shenron, but I guess you could argue they did that to bring back Trunks.

[Zephyr]

I would argue that they weren't overused either, only used as necessary.

That's fair. Plenty of people do argue that the story itself has an over-reliance on them as a fix-all, which removes a lot of tension and severely lessens the impact of death. I can empathize with that complaint to an extent, so, conceptually at least, I really enjoy seeing the fixall actually backfire for once.

Yeah, the problem is that GT takes away any possibility that Elder Kaioshin doesn't know what he's talking about. They specifically point out that comment was about the Shadow Dragons, which absolutely destroys it. However I still feel the comment isn't begging to be expanded on as some others feel - I think the most natural interpretation of that seen is that Kaioshin is just being a stick in the mud.

Yeah. I'm aware that GT executed it badly. And I agree that there's really no need on the Buu arc end of things to extrapolate more than "oh he's just really traditional, don't mind him". Just saying that the Buu arc end of things leaves it open enough for the concept to still work.

So I think that shows that the Dragon Balls aren't really enablers for Goku, he'll do it anyway, and if the story wants to address that problem they should do it directly and maybe address the Dragon Balls as a part of that greater problem. While this is true, focusing on the Dragon Balls ignores the real problem. And if you just take away the Dragon Balls or punish their use, there's no guarantee that Goku will stop allowing threats to happen - he let Vegeta go because he wanted a rematch, while in his mind the Dragon Balls were no longer an option.

That's true, the Dragon Balls aren't much of a factor for Goku. However, they're very likely a factor in the back of everyone else's minds, otherwise I doubt everyone would let Goku have his way every single time.

But other than those points I replied to, you raise a lot of great points. One of the two biggest things people praise regarding GT is still horribly executed, and I'd never thought about that until now.

[Rocketman]

All of GT is "good/decent idea, shitty execution".

[RandomGuy96]

It is a horrible idea. It punishes the protagonists for actually doing the right thing, and retroactively makes several characters look like total assholes.

[Kakacarrottop]

All of GT is "good/decent idea, shitty execution".

Not sure if your being sarcastic or not, but really? turning Goku into a kid again and having him defeat every single villain in a desperate attempt to recreate the original Dragon Ball wasn't an inherently flawed/stupid idea?