Vegeta what if ?

[rereboy]

It's not because he wanted to protect Bulma, it's because of his pride. He even says "That's my Bulma!" As in--Bulma is like a possession of his. The wife of the Prince won't be slapped around, she should be treated with the respect one would have for Vegeta as well. That is why he got angry, and it's completely within character He also got a similar anger burst when Goku was offering Old Kaioshin pics of Bulma.

Except he has been mad about his pride hundreds of times before and never had a rage/power boost, let alone a huge one. Being mad at Goku because of Bulma's pics didn't make him stronger.

You should really stop using Viz as your source. It's a bad source.

Actually, its a perfectly good source with very few things actually wrong, as confirmed by Herms himself. Claiming its a bad source is factually wrong. 99,9% of the times is perfectly correct, so I trust every line in there until proven that its a particular line in Viz is wrong.

Vegeta isn't denying the possibility of that mysterious power. He accepts it as a possibility, but he doesn't understand why he doesn't have that power now, if that's true.

No, Vegeta says that its possible that it is a reason for why Goku is strong but he denies that the difference between the two of them is because of that as seen here: "but if that were it, then it would have been the same for me, now."

And then he states what the real reason for their difference is: "It was to have my own way, it was for my own enjoyment, it was to kill my enemies, and it was for my own pride that I had fought... But, Kakarotto, you were different. You don't fight in order to win, you fight in order to be certain you do not lose, and in order to keep reaching your limits."

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Actually, its a perfectly good source with very few things actually wrong, as confirmed by Herms himself. Claiming its a bad source is factually wrong. 99,9% of the times is perfectly correct, so I trust every line in there until proven that its a particular line in Viz is wrong.

It is like using the of Kai FUNi dub. They are good adaptations, but they are not the actual thing. They are not translations. I'm not saying it's always bad, but in cases like this one, it's not a good source. The Viz adaptation is good for reading the manga in English, not for pulling out facts in debates. In debates, we need the closest thing to the original Japanese manga written by Toriyama himself, and since we can't read Japanese, we need literal English translations.

At least when you are using Viz as your source, say it from the beginning. Don't treat it as if it's equal to the original manga.

No, Vegeta says that its possible that its a reason for why Goku is strong but he denies that the difference between the two of them is because of that as seen here: "but if that were it, then it would have been the same for me, now."

Vegeta doesn't deny it with certainty. And even if he did deny it, it is only because his theory wasn't proven. BoG shows that his theory was actually correct.

And then he states what the real reason for their difference is: "It was to have my own way, it was for my own enjoyment, it was to kill my enemies, and it was for my own pride that I had fought... But, Kakarotto, you were different. You don't fight in order to win, you fight in order to be certain you do not lose, and in order to keep reaching your limits."

He doesn't say that as the actual reason instead of his theory. He says his theory about that "mysterious power of love", and then states their different ideals behind fighting.

[rereboy]

I'm sorry, but in my opinion you are clearly reading both sources wrong. Vegeta's meaning is perfectly clear and you are twisting his meaning.

Btw, all translations imply a degree of adaptation. A 100% literal translation doesn't work. Viz's lines and its meaning are 99,9% of the times correct when compared to meaning of the original manga.

[superfunk]

He doesn't say that as the actual reason instead of his theory. He says his theory about that "mysterious power of love", and then states their different ideals behind fighting.

Does Vegeta say that in the Japanese anime?

[Ashelia]

In fact, no character ever got stronger out of nowhere in DB because he wanted to protect people.

Thank you. Its usually the lack of protecting someone that triggers a transformation except in Vegeta's case. Trunks dies right in front of Vegeta in a very desperate life or death situation same as Kuririn does for Goku yet the results are very different despite both being very emotional. One taps into some crazy ancient transformation that the entire male side of his family gets to harness by being distraught/angry in any degree, while Mr. Rage himself is lucky to get some usage out of just a boost before being beaten.

Vegeta isn't stronger (when it counts) simply because he isn't the main character or related to Goku. Maybe that'll change in the RoF but I don't feel him being second has any real in-universe explanation, its just shonen circumstance.

[Tatakae!!Ramenman]

I thought Vegeta surpassing Goku from seeing Bulma get hit was meant to be comedic. When I saw it in the theater and Kame Senin said that he had surpassed Goku, everybody laughed.

[ZazamPow]

it goes against several instances in the story where devotion and the desire to protect is exactly what allowed Goku to win

Examples?

Goku didn't beat Tao Pai Pai and King Piccolo just for sport, he did it to avenge Bora and Krillin respectively, and those were two of his largest powerups in the whole pre-Z era, it can even be argued that he only managed to attain those powerups because of his stronger determination compared to when he just trained for sport. Against Freeza the ONLY reason Goku won was because Krillin was killed, and almost all of Gohan's powerups were caused by his friends being injured. Compare those massive powerups in a short time to things like Goku training for the 22nd Budokai or training for the androids, where his improvement was pretty much negligible.

[fadeddreams5]

If we go by Toriyama's recent work, possibly, but based on the original manga, no. Him surpassing Goku in BoG was just bullshit. He was angrier when Cell killed Trunks, and he didn't get the least bit stronger. Furthermore, he himself admits in the Buu saga that even when he found himself caring for a family, he couldn't surpass his limits and beat Goku. Unless this was made up in anime....

You miss the point. Vegeta didn't get stronger against Beerus just because he got angry, he got stronger because he wanted to protect Bulma. Against Cell, he wanted to avenge Trunks, not protect him (since he was already dead, there wasn't anything to protect).

You can call it bullshit if you want, but this bullshit actually comes from the manga. Not in action, but as a hypothesis from Vegeta.

I will call it bullshit. lol. In the end, raw emotion has always been the source of all the power-ups in the series. The need to protect others has never directly resulted in anyone powering up to the extent that Vegeta did in BoG. Even when Goku went berserk on Namek, and thought of his friends as he was being drowned, he still couldn't so much as scratch Frieza or get much stronger at all. It wasn't until he FAILED to protect his best friend that he went over the edge and transformed into a SSJ. Same goes for Gohan when Cell killed Android 16. The failure to protect, or rather, the failure to meet an important goal during a time of need has caused them to explode into a sadness and rage that pushes them to exceed their limitations. So protecting others has never been a factor; it just so happens that many of the characters consider that their primary goal. I mean, Vegeta did not turn SSJ in the first place because he gave a shit about anyone else.

So going back to the scene in BoG, if Vegeta did not get the least bit stronger against Cell when Trunks was killed, I maintain that he shouldn't have ascended passed a level he hasn't even reached (wtf!) just from seeing Bulma get slapped--something she asked for! I realize I'm arguing against the words of the scriptwriter...but...come on. lol. BoG plagued the series with the cliche theme of "love and good always triumph" (I know Goku loses...) in the sense of characters becoming stronger just from caring about others and being pure.

[Eire]

So "when the facts don't support my opinion- that's bad for the facts"? Also- any examples for those terribe inaccurancies in Viz?

[rereboy]

Goku didn't beat Tao Pai Pai and King Piccolo just for sport, he did it to avenge Bora and Krillin respectively, and those were two of his largest powerups in the whole pre-Z era, it can even be argued that he only managed to attain those powerups because of his stronger determination compared to when he just trained for sport.

That's his motivation to be stronger. Not the reason why he got stronger. He got stronger in those instances because he trained with Karin and because he drank the magic water of the tower. Without that or some other form of training, he wouldn't get stronger no matter how much he wanted to beat those guys.

Against Freeza the ONLY reason Goku won was because Krillin was killed, and almost all of Gohan's powerups were caused by his friends being injured. Compare those massive powerups in a short time to things like Goku training for the 22nd Budokai or training for the androids, where his improvement was pretty much negligible.

Goku beat Freeza because he managed to unlock a legendary transformation specific of the Saiyan race. Without it, he wouldn't become stronger no matter how much he wanted to.

So, in short, you didn't list any examples of Goku becoming much stronger just because he wanted to without any training or transformation.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm sorry, but in my opinion you are clearly reading both sources wrong. Vegeta's meaning is perfectly clear and you are twisting his meaning.

How exactly am I twisting his meaning, and what reasons do I have to do that?

Btw, all translations imply a degree of adaptation. A 100% literal translation doesn't work. Viz's lines and its meaning are 99,9% of the times correct when compared to meaning of the original manga.

Viz got a 7/10 from Herms, not a 9,9/10, and every single time you have used a Viz line in a debate of ours (including this time), the meaning compared to the original is different. Herms' translations from the strength checker & the FUNi subs of the anime are direct translations of the Japanese. The Viz translations are not direct translation.

He doesn't say that as the actual reason instead of his theory. He says his theory about that "mysterious power of love", and then states their different ideals behind fighting.

Does Vegeta say that in the Japanese anime?

And in the manga as well, I think.

At first, I thought it was because you had something to protect, that having a strong mind towards defending something gave rise to some mysterious power... That certainly may be true, but if that were it, then it would have been the same for me, now. It was to have my own way, it was for my own enjoyment, it was to kill my enemies, and it was for my own pride that I had fought... But, Kakarotto, you were different. You don't fight in order to win, you fight in order to be certain you do not lose, and in order to keep reaching your limits.

[rereboy]

How exactly am I twisting his meaning, and what reasons do I have to do that?

Like I said, in my opinion, you are reading/interpreting the quotes wrong. The whole point of them is Vegeta having an epiphany about why he can't surpass Goku and he, quite clearly, states that having someone to protect isn't the reason why he can't surpass Goku. And yet you are interpreting it in a way that implies that within his quote there is a suggestion that having someone to protect could allow him to surpass Goku. That's the opposite of what he means. Why you are interpreting it that way I don't know, but I don't agree.

Viz got a 7/10 from Herms, not a 9,9/10, and every single time you have used a Viz line in a debate of ours (including this time), the meaning compared to the original is different. Herms' translations from the strength checker & the FUNi subs of the anime are direct translations of the Japanese. The Viz translations are not direct translation.

The idea behind the 7/10 rating is that the Simmons subtitles are about 9/10, accuracy-wise, and 10/10 is effectively impossible due to things lost in translation, human error, etc. So it's a way of saying "good, but could be better".

in http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... on#p737382

rereboy already mentioned it, but I typically describe the Viz translation as "7/10" as far as faithfulness to the original goes, which is kind of an arbitrary number but just meant to represent that it's pretty good overall, with some areas for notable improvement.

in http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... on#p647319

So... Herms calls it good or pretty good and that the 7/10 is just an arbitrary number of saying that its pretty good but could be better... and yet you claim that its bad for some reason like you did in this very topic...

Also, Herms is considering all that could be improved in their translation. There are some things that are actually wrong and contrary to the original meaning of the manga, but Herms gives that rating based not just on that but also on other things that could be improved, like for example Piccolo's medieval manner of speaking at the start of the saiyan arc that, even though doesn't give a meaning to what he is saying actually contrary to the original, its still an added unnecessary innovation to the translation that decreases its quality.

And, like I said, there's no real change in what Vegeta means in those two quotes... You are the one who is interpreting the opposite of the point of Vegeta's speech, for some reason.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Like I said, in my opinion, you are reading/interpreting the quotes wrong.

The whole point of them is Vegeta having an epiphany about why he can't surpass Goku and he, quite clearly, states that having someone to protect isn't the reason why he can't surpass Goku. And yet you are interpreting it in a way that implies that within his quote there is a suggestion that having someone to protect could allow him to surpass Goku. That's the opposite of what he means. Why you are interpreting it that way I don't know, but I don't agree.

At first, I thought it was because you had something to protect, that having a strong mind towards defending something gave rise to some mysterious power... That certainly may be true, but if that were it, then it would have been the same for me, now.

Vegeta admits that this hypothesis may be true (something that is lost in your Viz quote), but he wonders why he doesn't have that power as well if that's the case. He doesn't completely deny the possibility of the existence of such power, he just can't be sure about it because he doesn't have it while he should.

And from what BoG shows us, Vegeta does have this power. It just remained dormant in him (most likely because of his personality).

Viz got a 7/10 from Herms, not a 9,9/10, and every single time you have used a Viz line in a debate of ours (including this time), the meaning compared to the original is different. Herms' translations from the strength checker & the FUNi subs of the anime are direct translations of the Japanese. The Viz translations are not direct translation.

The idea behind the 7/10 rating is that the Simmons subtitles are about 9/10, accuracy-wise, and 10/10 is effectively impossible due to things lost in translation, human error, etc. So it's a way of saying "good, but could be better".

in http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... on#p737382

rereboy already mentioned it, but I typically describe the Viz translation as "7/10" as far as faithfulness to the original goes, which is kind of an arbitrary number but just meant to represent that it's pretty good overall, with some areas for notable improvement.

in http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... on#p647319

So... Herms calls it good or pretty good and that the 7/10 is just an arbitrary number of saying that its pretty good but could be better... and yet you claim that its bad for some reason like you did in this very topic...

Also, Herms is considering all that could be improved in their translation. There are some things that are actually wrong and contrary to the original meaning of the manga, but Herms gives that rating based not just on that but also on other things that could be improved, like for example Piccolo's medieval manner of speaking at the start of the saiyan arc that, even though doesn't give a meaning to what he is saying actually contrary to the original, its still an added unnecessary innovation to the translation that decreases its quality.

And, like I said, there's no real change in what Vegeta means in those two quotes... You are the one who is interpreting the opposite of the point of Vegeta's speech, for some reason.

A 7/10 isn't good enough for a debate. Every time you post a Viz quote in a debate of ours, it has something wrong. Including this time.

It's the Viz line that makes it sound like Vegeta is saying "I thought you were stronger because you were fighting to protect, but you are stronger because you fight to push your limits, etc, while I fight for my pride, etc". This isn't what the original says.

[rereboy]

Yeah, but the subtitles for the anime are good enough fot a debate about the manga, even thought we don't know if that particular line is exactly the same in the manga.. Right..

The quote from the subtitles says that vegeta thought that having someone to protect gave goku power, which may me true, but since vegeta also has had that for a while, he concludes that the real difference between them is the fact that goku doesn't have egotistical motivativations, he just wants to better himself. That't the same meaning presented in Viz, no real difference.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Yeah, but the subtitles for the anime are good enough fot a debate about the manga, even thought we don't know if that particular line is exactly the same in the manga.. Right..

Unlike you with Viz, I never treated them as the original manga. I said multiple times that this may not be what the manga says, but there is a good chance that it is, since the manga lines usually don't get altered in the anime.

The quote from the subtitles says that vegeta thought that having someone to protect gave goku power, which may me true, but since vegeta also has had that for a while, he concludes that the real difference between them is the fact that goku doesn't have egotistical motivativations, he just wants to better himself. That't the same meaning presented in Viz, no real difference.

No, in the subs, the whole talk about the motivations is a separate thing.

In the subs, Vegeta says that he thought that Goku had a mysterious power because he was fighting for others, and then says that this may be true, but wonders why he doesn't have this power as well now. Then he talks about their different motivations for battle.

In Viz, Vegeta again says that he thought that Goku had a mysterious power because he was fighting for others, but then says that instead of that, it's because of their different motivations for battle.

It's not the same message at all.

[rereboy]

[quote="DBZGTKOSDH"]
Unlike you with Viz, I never treated them as the original manga. I said multiple times that this may not be what the manga says, but there is a good chance that it is, since the manga lines usually don't get altered in the anime.[\quote]

You assume the subtitles are accurate in their meaning compared to the manga because they almost always are. I assume that viz is accurate in its meaning compared to the original manga because it almost always is.

If in a debate someone proves to me that a viz line is wrong in its meaning, I will concede the point. In this debate you have not done so because their meaning is the same, imo.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I assume that viz is accurate in its meaning compared to the original manga because it almost always is.

Except they aren't.

If in a debate someone proves to me that a viz line is wrong in its meaning, I will concede the point. In this debate you have not done so because their meaning is the same, imo.

I fail to see that.

[rereboy]

No, in the subs, the whole talk about the motivations is a separate thing.

In the manga, its a uninterrupted speech.

In the subs, Vegeta says that he thought that Goku had a mysterious power because he was fighting for others, and then says that this may be true, but wonders why he doesn't have this power as well now. Then he talks about their different motivations for battle.

No, Vegeta starts off by saying that he thinks he has figured out the difference between him and Goku ( you forgot to put the equivalent of that part in the subtitles). Then he elaborates that he thought that protecting others gave Goku a power that Vegeta didn't have, which may be true, but that can't be it (the difference) because Vegeta has that now. And then he elaborates on what he believes the real difference is.

In Viz, Vegeta again says that he thought that Goku had a mysterious power because he was fighting for others, but then says that instead of that, it's because of their different motivations for battle.

Which is the same meaning of the subtitles.

I fail to see that.

The only time I remember that I had a debate with you regarding translations was a debate about Gohan's power up to Mystic form. I put the Viz line, you stated that the original manga had more detail to it, namely that the Old Kaioshin also told him to add a ki-ai besides the "gist" of the SSJ, provided proof for that, and since the original line indeed changes the interpretation of the scene a bit, I didn't continue the debate or disagreed with you.

So, yeah, I concede when someone demonstrates that the meaning is wrong. That's not what is happening in this topic.

I assume that viz is accurate in its meaning compared to the original manga because it almost always is.

Except they aren't.

Actually, they are. Out of thousands of lines, only a a small number of them are actually wrong in regards to meaning when compared to the original manga. Hence, why I stated them being right 99,9% of the times. The vast majority of inaccuracy in Viz is due to some liberties in the lines, but the actual basic meaning is almost always right.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

In the manga, its a uninterrupted speech.

Same in the anime. It just wasn't presented as a different reason to what he said before (unlike in Viz).

No, Vegeta starts off by saying that he thinks he has figured out the difference between him and Goku ( you forgot to put the equivalent of that part in the subtitles). Then he elaborates that he thought that protecting others gave Goku a power that Vegeta didn't have, which may be true, but that can't be it (the difference) because Vegeta has that now.

He doesn't say that it can't be it. He just wonders why he doesn't have that power, if that true.

And then he elaborates on what he believes the real difference is.

What makes you think that?

[TheLegend23]

This is getting heated !