Vegeta what if ?

[ZazamPow]

Goku didn't beat Tao Pai Pai and King Piccolo just for sport, he did it to avenge Bora and Krillin respectively, and those were two of his largest powerups in the whole pre-Z era, it can even be argued that he only managed to attain those powerups because of his stronger determination compared to when he just trained for sport.

That's his motivation to be stronger. Not the reason why he got stronger. He got stronger in those instances because he trained with Karin and because he drank the magic water of the tower. Without that or some other form of training, he wouldn't get stronger no matter how much he wanted to beat those guys.

Against Freeza the ONLY reason Goku won was because Krillin was killed, and almost all of Gohan's powerups were caused by his friends being injured. Compare those massive powerups in a short time to things like Goku training for the 22nd Budokai or training for the androids, where his improvement was pretty much negligible.

Goku beat Freeza because he managed to unlock a legendary transformation specific of the Saiyan race. Without it, he wouldn't become stronger no matter how much he wanted to.

So, in short, you didn't list any examples of Goku becoming much stronger just because he wanted to without any training or transformation.

It can be argued that he only improved to that degree because of his determination. He finished Korin's training in only three days because he needed to fight Tao ASAP, both to avenge Bora and protect Upa, and he survived the Super Holy Water likely because of his determination to avenge Krillin, not just for no reason. He only attained SSJ in response to Krillin dying, I don't see how that doesn't count if we're talking about characters becoming stronger in response to their friends being injured/in danger.

[JamesOwnz]

Well lets hope by Golden Week Goku and Vegeta are the same strength... just to see some ruffled feathers

Goku is the main character so of course he is going to be the strongest, but he always had the advantages in training.

On way to Namek he got to train all the way there, unlike Vegeta.

After the 3 year gap leading to Cell Arc they are the same strength with maybe Vegeta being a tiny bit stronger.

The room of spirit and time was a bit of a slap to Vegeta.... fine for Goku to be stronger after the first time out...but Vegeta went in again..should have come out in same form.

Then Buu arc comes and they are the same strength again...for a few chapters and then AT just has to go back and pull SSJ3 out of his bum...this did make sense in the fact Goku got to do all sort of new training in the afterlife but it was a huge tease... Damn your on the fly writing Toriyama!!!

[ABED]

He even says "That's my Bulma!" As in--Bulma is like a possession of his. The wife of the Prince won't be slapped around, she should be treated with the respect one would have for Vegeta as well. That is why he got angry, and it's completely within character He also got a similar anger burst when Goku was offering Old Kaioshin pics of Bulma.

That's not how I took that moment. The "my" wasn't meant in an egotistical way. He meant not to hurt the woman he loves. I don't see the burst of anger as the exact same thing as the Kaioshin pic. Yes, it's all within character because of how he's grown.

[Ashelia]

Goku didn't beat Tao Pai Pai and King Piccolo just for sport, he did it to avenge Bora and Krillin respectively, and those were two of his largest powerups in the whole pre-Z era, it can even be argued that he only managed to attain those powerups because of his stronger determination compared to when he just trained for sport.

That's his motivation to be stronger. Not the reason why he got stronger. He got stronger in those instances because he trained with Karin and because he drank the magic water of the tower. Without that or some other form of training, he wouldn't get stronger no matter how much he wanted to beat those guys.

Against Freeza the ONLY reason Goku won was because Krillin was killed, and almost all of Gohan's powerups were caused by his friends being injured. Compare those massive powerups in a short time to things like Goku training for the 22nd Budokai or training for the androids, where his improvement was pretty much negligible.

Goku beat Freeza because he managed to unlock a legendary transformation specific of the Saiyan race. Without it, he wouldn't become stronger no matter how much he wanted to.

So, in short, you didn't list any examples of Goku becoming much stronger just because he wanted to without any training or transformation.

It can be argued that he only improved to that degree because of his determination. He finished Karin's training in only three days because he needed to fight Tao ASAP, both to avenge Bora and protect Upa, and he survived the Super Holy Water likely because of his determination to avenge Krillin, not just for no reason. He only attained SSJ in response to Krillin dying, I don't see how that doesn't count if we're talking about characters becoming stronger in response to their friends being injured/in danger.

The glaring issue is that wanting to protect is the default of most of the characters anyways including Goku so its usually after they fail that a boost/transformation is unlocked not before. When someone dies you can't protect them anymore, they're dead....you failed. Avenging requires that failure as do the power ups. If just wanting to protect was all that was needed to get stronger training wouldn't be necessary as unlike Vegeta most don't need an epiphany in realizing they care about people. Just in Goku's case there is an added enjoyment to fighting but its not the only factor.

Its all connected, without training you don't get a fighter (Saiyan) whose strong enough to be pushed further by emotions when they fuck up. Just with Vegeta when he fucks up he gets a short lived boost exclusively, almost feels like a running gag at this point.

[TheZFighter]

I think you could argue that Vegeta's ignorance and pigheadedness might've stifled his potential somewhat, but I don't think he'd ever have been able to top Goku. To quote Vegeta himself "you're the best, Kakarot"

[rereboy]

It can be argued that he only improved to that degree because of his determination. He finished Karin's training in only three days because he needed to fight Tao ASAP, both to avenge Bora and protect Upa, and he survived the Super Holy Water likely because of his determination to avenge Krillin, not just for no reason. He only attained SSJ in response to Krillin dying, I don't see how that doesn't count if we're talking about characters becoming stronger in response to their friends being injured/in danger.

And if Vegeta had used his determination to train or unlock a transformation that made sense or had been explained/mentioned, and then surpassed Goku on Battle of Gods, it would be fine. That's not what happened.

His determination directly gave him a power boost that made him surpass SSJ3 Goku with SSJ2. That has never happened, except with Gohan who is a special case and has always had that ability because he is a human-saiyan hybrid.

That's literally the same thing as Goku not being nowhere near strong enough to defeat Taopaipai but after seeing him kill an innocent an wanting to protect his son, immediately become strong enough to beat Taopaipai without any training.

He doesn't say that it can't be it. He just wonders why he doesn't have that power, if that true.

Here is the relevant part of your own quote:

... that having a strong mind towards defending something gave rise to some mysterious power... That certainly may be true, but if that were it, then it would have been the same for me, now.

Vegeta is concluding that ts possible that Goku was able to gain power because he had people to protect but that's not the difference between them, that's not why Vegeta can't match or surpass Goku, since he has that now and can't match or surpass Goku. Its a conclusion, not a wondering.

And then he elaborates on what he believes the real difference is.

What makes you think that?

Because he starts the speech by saying that he believes he has figured out the difference between him and Goku, why he can't surpass Goku. That's the whole point of his speech. He is stating what he thinks is the difference between them and why he can't surpass Goku.

Like he says, at first he thought it was because Goku had people to protect, since that might translate into him gaining extra power, and while him getting extra power because of that might be true, "if that were it, then it would have been the same for me, now". Vegeta literally concludes that its not it since Vegeta hasn't matched or surpassed Goku. And following that line of thought, Vegeta concludes with what is actually different about them and has always been different: the fact that while Vegeta has a egotistical point of view of fighting, Goku only fights to surpass himself.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta is concluding that ts possible that Goku was able to gain power because he had people to protect but that's not the difference between them, that's not why Vegeta can't match or surpass Goku, since he has that now and can't match or surpass Goku. Its a conclusion, not a wondering.

He is still not denying the fact that this "mysterious power" may be real. The only thing that makes him doubt (but not deny it) is the fact that he doesn't have that power, when he should.

But BoG shows us that Vegeta's theory was correct, and Vegeta did have that power, just dormant inside him (most likely because he doesn't show his good feelings easily).

[ABED]

Vegeta is concluding that ts possible that Goku was able to gain power because he had people to protect but that's not the difference between them, that's not why Vegeta can't match or surpass Goku, since he has that now and can't match or surpass Goku. Its a conclusion, not a wondering.

He is still not denying the fact that this "mysterious power" may be real. The only thing that makes him doubt (but not deny it) is the fact that he doesn't have that power, when he should.

But BoG shows us that Vegeta's theory was correct, and Vegeta did have that power, just dormant inside him (most likely because he doesn't show his good feelings easily).

Are you saying Vegeta's speech had something to do with Vegeta wondering why he didn't have a mysterious power that Goku has? The speech is Vegeta admitting flat out that Goku's the better fighter, regardless.

As for the mysterious power in BoG, there's nothing stopping Goku from having the same thing. After Vegeta's defeat on Earth, there's no point I can recall that Vegeta's stronger than Goku.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Are you saying Vegeta's speech had something to do with Vegeta wondering why he didn't have a mysterious power that Goku has?

Why wouldn't it when it's part of the speech?

The speech is Vegeta admitting flat out that Goku's the better fighter, regardless.

OK? I know that, what's your point?

As for the mysterious power in BoG, there's nothing stopping Goku from having the same thing.

I don't believe Goku would need to get angry for this, or that this power would be dormant like with Vegeta. If he does have it (why wouldn't), then it's part of his normal power. Goku is always honest about his feelings & intentions. Vegeta isn't like that.

And if you ask "what does personality have to do with ki", well, ki is composed by genki (energy), yuuki (courage), shouki (right-mindedness), and other things. It also reflects the fighter's personality (they can tell if someone is evil by their evil ki for example) and intents (Goku could tell from Trunks' ki that he didn't have the killing intent when they first met & fought, for example).

After Vegeta's defeat on Earth, there's no point I can recall that Vegeta's stronger than Goku.

Vegeta was slightly stronger after he got SS, and he was also stronger than him after RoSaT (before Goku went in though, so that's not fair mentioning, but still).

[rereboy]

Vegeta is concluding that ts possible that Goku was able to gain power because he had people to protect but that's not the difference between them, that's not why Vegeta can't match or surpass Goku, since he has that now and can't match or surpass Goku. Its a conclusion, not a wondering.

He is still not denying the fact that this "mysterious power" may be real. The only thing that makes him doubt (but not deny it) is the fact that he doesn't have that power, when he should.

But BoG shows us that Vegeta's theory was correct, and Vegeta did have that power, just dormant inside him (most likely because he doesn't show his good feelings easily).

1 - he says that its possible that goku gains power from it but he explicity denies that's the difference between them because he has had too for a while, só he has the same advantage.

2 - even if you assume that his probably most iconic speech in the manga is him reaching the wrong conclusion, at best having someone to protect would only make him have the same thing goku has, not make him surpass ssj3 goku with his ssj2.

Any way you look at it what you are saying doesn't make sense.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

he says that its possible that goku gains power from it but he explicity denies that's the difference between them because he has had too for a while.

He doesn't say that he has that, he guesses that he has that only because he has something to protect.

even if you assune that his probably most iconic speech in the manga is him reaching the wrong conclusion

I'm not saying he reached a wrong conclusion. Vegeta's vs Goku's reasons for fighting is the reason Goku always surpasses him.

at best having someone to protect would only make him have the same thing goku has, not make him surpass ssj3 goku with his ssj2

Except if Vegeta is naturally stronger than Goku. He was born with higher BP after all.

[rereboy]

He doesn't say that he has that, he guesses that he has that only because he has something to protect.

He reaches that conclusion. You are just saying that his conclusion is not right or might not be right.

I'm not saying he reached a wrong conclusion. Vegeta's vs Goku's reasons for fighting is the reason Goku always surpasses him.

No, that is exactly what you are doing. Vegeta concludes that he has the same thing that goku has and he concludes that that aspect is irrelevant for the difference between them because they are equal in that aspect, and you are saying "well, he doesn't doesn't know that, he can have the wrong conclusion and as such he can somehow awaken enough power in the future when he gets mad because of it to surpass ssj3 goku with just his ssj2".

Except if Vegeta is naturally stronger than Goku. He was born with higher BP after all.

Yeah, the battle power that a fighter is born with has always been one of the important aspects and themes of dragon ball and will determine who is the strongest and who surpasses who when the fighter gets mad enough.. Or not..

[ABED]

Vegeta was slightly stronger after he got SS, and he was also stronger than him after RoSaT (before Goku went in though, so that's not fair mentioning, but still).

Was there any actual confirmation that Vegeta was any stronger than Goku? We never saw him at his best fighting 19. The RoSaT was as you said not fair mentioning, whoever went in first was going to be stronger.

OK? I know that, what's your point?

The point is the "mysterious power" goes against the idea that Goku is stronger because of the type of person he is. It's an internal thing, not just a matter of some deep reservoir of power. It's the climax of Vegeta's character development. I also can't find the part in his speech where he talks about Goku's mysterious power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He reaches that conclusion. You are just saying that his conclusion is not right or might not be right.

It's not a conclusion, because he is not even sure if that power even exists. So, what I'm saying is that his hypothesis was right, but from a certain point of view. He did have that power, he just hadn't used it yet.

No, that is exactly what you are doing. Vegeta concludes that he has the same thing that goku has and he concludes that that aspect is irrelevant for the difference between them because they are equal in that aspect, and you are saying "well, he doesn't doesn't know that, he can have the wrong conclusion and as such he can somehow awaken enough power in the future when he gets mad because of it to surpass ssj3 goku with just his ssj2".

Except his conclusion isn't wrong. Goku indeed does surpass him because he is fighting to push his limits, while Vegeta is fighting for himself, which is why Goku was always on top. But Vegeta wasn't fighting for himself when Beerus slapped Bulma, he was fighting to protect Bulma.

Yeah, the battle power that a fighter is born with has always been one of the important aspects and themes of dragon ball and will determine who is the strongest and who surpasses who when the fighter gets mad enough.. Or not..

Yeah, you are right. Just look at Gohan, Goten, and Trunks. Wait...

Was there any actual confirmation that Vegeta was any stronger than Goku? We never saw him at his best fighting 19. The RoSaT was as you said not fair mentioning, whoever went in first was going to be stronger.

Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P6.1-2
Context: after Vegeta scares No.20 away with a bluff
Piccolo: “He really had lost a lot of stamina…when he confirmed that the androids sucked out energy with the palms of their hands…He ought to have lost if he had fought that No.20 guy…But he talked as if he still had something up his sleeve…Vegeta really is a fighting genius…He might have sur-surpassed…Goku…”

Don't forget that Piccolo was training with Goku for these 3 years, so he knows Goku's true power.

The point is the "mysterious power" goes against the idea that Goku is stronger because of the type of person he is. It's an internal thing, not just a matter of some deep reservoir of power. It's the climax of Vegeta's character development. I also can't find the part in his speech where he talks about Goku's mysterious power.

Which is why Vegeta doesn't think that Goku surpasses him because of that "mysterious power".

[rereboy]

If you to as far to claim that what vegeta said is not a conclusion, that just shows how this debate is pointless...

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If you to as far to claim that what vegeta said is not a conclusion, that just shows how this debate is pointless...

I'm saying that what Vegeta said about the "mysterious power" isn't a conclusion, and it can't be, because he wasn't even sure about its existence. He basically said "well, maybe there is some weird power that comes from wanting to protect, and maybe Goku has it, but since now I have a family & planet to protect, I should have that too logically, right?".

His conclusion about why Goku is #1 though, that is a conclusion.

[rereboy]

If you think he didn't have enough info to make a correct conclusion about him being equal to goku regarding protecting people and gaining power from it, then the best you can argue is that his conclusion is wrong because of that.

Instead you are arguing that since, in your opinion, he didn't have all the info, what he stated is not a conclusion, like somehow a conclusion implies that the person making the conclusion must alway be right and have all the info, otherwise what he states can't be called a conclusion.

That's not what a conclusion is. There are right conclusions and there are wrong conclusions. You either argue that vegeta made a right conclusion or a wrong conclusion.

The fact that you even suggest that its not a conclusion just shows the pointless nature of the debate, like I stated. You apparently will simply bend backwards to not admit anything, not even on what a conclusion is...

And by now I'm just repeating myself anyway so, to me, the debate is finished.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If you think he didn't have enough info to make a correct conclusion about him being equal to goku regarding protecting people and gaining power from it, then the best you can argue is that his conclusion is wrong because of that.

But what makes you think his conclusion would be wrong? I don't get that. Vegeta is correct about him being below Goku because he is fighting for himself while Goku isn't. His conclusion is correct. It's the whole thing about the "mysterious power" that he isn't sure, which is something he admits.

[rereboy]

I don't.

You are the one saying that what Vegeta stated about them both having people to protect and that that aspect was therefore irrelevant regarding differences in power between them, is or might be wrong.

You are the one claiming that that conclusion of his is wrong, but you don't even admit that it is a conclusion...

In short, vegeta concludes that having people to protect is not what makes the difference between them because they are equal in that regard. He then concludes that what makes the difference between them is their stances in fighting, not having people to protect. Somehow, you disagree with his first conclusion, not even admitting its a conclusion, but you agree with the second. And I disagree with that and have already provided plenty of arguments regarding the subject so I won't repeat myself.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You are the one saying that what Vegeta stated about them being equal in regards to protecting people and that that aspect was therefore irrelevant regarding differences in power between them, is or might be wrong.

It's not that is saying that, BoG is.

You are the one claiming that that conclusion of his is wrong, but you don't even admite that it is a conclusion...

I don't believe it's a conclusion because he himself isn't sure in the first place. Or rather, his conclusion isn't conclusive. The conclusion is "That power either doesn't exist, or it does. If it does, I probably have it as well".