Vegeta what if ?

[rereboy]

And I'm not saying that vegeta didn't surpass goku in Bog due to something like that.. I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense.

And no, he states " if that were it, it would have been the same for me, now" in your own quote. There's no probably. Its a conclusion. You either argue that its a wrong conclusion or a right conclusion.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And I'm not saying that vegeta didn't surpass goku in Bog due to something like that.. I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense.

Why doesn't it make sense?

And no, he states " if that were it, it would have been the same for me, now" in your own quote. There's no probably. Its a conclusion. You either argue that its a wrong conclusion or a right conclusion.

Then Vegeta is partially wrong about this. He did have the power, but he couldn't use it apparently.

[rereboy]

Why doesn't it make sense?

Like I said, Dragon Ball has never worked like that. There is always an actual explanation, either training or a explained transformation or technique that allows a fighter to become stronger, or its something inherent to the character that is explained and has always been there (Gohan).

There has never been any character or situation where a fighter gained significant power just because he wanted to protect, or got mad, without that. Wanting to protect and other motivations have always been just that, motivations... Better motivations can help the fighter achieve greater gains but no fighter in Dragon Ball achieves gains just from motivation and no proper explanation.

That is particularly true with Vegeta, since he has always been a particularly emotional character. Vegeta never had a random power up like this before, no matter how mad he got or if he was protecting people or not. When he faced off Fat Buu and then Kid Buu, he was fighting for others, and nothing about his power changed.

Therefore, Vegeta's speech during the fight with Kid Buu makes perfect sense within the series, especially since its noticeable that its not just Vegeta talking, its Toriyama giving a conclusion to the Goku and Vegeta rivalry/relationship and stating it how it is.

Battle of Gods forgets this in favor of introducing a lazy shonen troupe that has never been part of Dragon Ball before: amazing power because feelings without a good explanation... What is this? Fairy Tail?

And not only that, but the power given to Vegeta because of this is enough to make him surpass SSJ3 Goku with his SSj2, which is even more inconsistent than having Vegeta gain a power boost from it since in all these years, no matter what they did and how they evolved, the difference in evolution of power between them in the same form was never even remotely that big. In fact, its even stated in that movie that base Goku never surpassed his Namek SSJ self.

Then Vegeta is partially wrong about this. He did have the power, but he couldn't use it apparently.

The only reason you are saying its wrong is because you are interpreting the scene in the light of BOG and forcing a explanation out of it that fits with BOG. That's not how the scene was written or its meaning. And even assuming that Vegeta had that conclusion wrong, the BOB scene still doesn't make sense due to all I said. But at least now you admit it was a conclusion...

[ABED]

Piccolo: “He really had lost a lot of stamina…when he confirmed that the androids sucked out energy with the palms of their hands…He ought to have lost if he had fought that No.20 guy…But he talked as if he still had something up his sleeve…Vegeta really is a fighting genius…He might have sur-surpassed…Goku…”

MIGHT, he might have surpassed, as in he's not sure.

What's the "mysterious power" line you're referring to?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Like I said, Dragon Ball has never worked like that. There is always an actual explanation, either training or a explained transformation or technique that allows a fighter to become stronger, or its something inherent to the character that is explained and has always been there (Gohan).

There has never been any character or situation where a fighter gained significant power just because he wanted to protect, or got mad, without that. Wanting to protect and other motivations have always been just that, motivations... Better motivations can help the fighter achieve greater gains but no fighter in Dragon Ball achieves gains just from motivation and no proper explanation.

It does have an explanation. It's been hypothesized by Vegeta that you can get extra power by having something to protect, and Watanabe confirms that Vegeta got stronger because he wanted to protect Bulma.

As for the "it never worked like that in DB", it's a new thing like Super Saiyan God in the movie. Just because it never happened before doesn't mean it can't happen.

That is particularly true with Vegeta, since he has always been a particularly emotional character. Vegeta never had a random power up like this before, no matter how mad he got or if he was protecting people or not. When he faced off Fat Buu and then Kid Buu, he was fighting for others, and nothing about his power changed.

Except that Vegeta never got mad to protect someone in the manga, ever.

Battle of Gods forgets this in favor of introducing a lazy shonen troupe that has never been part of Dragon Ball before: amazing power because feelings without a good explanation... What is this? Fairy Tail?

It's fine not liking it, I hate that as well. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense.

And not only that, but the power given to Vegeta because of this is enough to make him surpass SSJ3 Goku with his SSj2, which is even more inconsistent than having Vegeta gain a power boost from it since in all these years, no matter what they did and how they evolved, the difference in evolution of power between them in the same form was never even remotely that big. In fact, its even stated in that movie that base Goku never surpassed his Namek SSJ self.

There is absolutely nothing that says that a SS2 can't surpass a SS3. Goku, and everyone else, have gotten more than x400 stronger through training during their lives. It may be extremely difficult, but it was never said to be impossible.

What's the "mysterious power" line you're referring to?

It's in Vegeta's "You are #1 Kakarotto!" speech.

[ABED]

Except that Vegeta never got mad to protect someone in the manga, ever.

So he was protecting his family from Kid Buu, but didn't get upset?

In the speech he said that he thought defending others brought out some other power in him. The context of the speech is that he was wrong, there was no power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Except that Vegeta never got mad to protect someone in the manga, ever.

So he was protecting his family from Kid Buu, but didn't get upset?

Did you see him getting mad like he did against Beerus? Because I can't find that page.

[ABED]

Except that Vegeta never got mad to protect someone in the manga, ever.

So he was protecting his family from Kid Buu, but didn't get upset?

Did you see him getting mad like he did against Beerus? Because I can't find that page.

So Vegeta has it but Goku doesn't? Is there some genetic or mystical component that despite similar circumstances, Goku doesn't obtain the same temporary power boost?

I can't find the page where this mysterious power you are referring to was ever brought up except concerning Gohan.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So Vegeta has it but Goku doesn't? Is there some genetic or mystical component that despite similar circumstances, Goku doesn't obtain the same temporary power boost?

It sounds like a psychological thing. Goku always fights to protect his family & friends, so this power is part of his normal power. Vegeta fights for himself most of the time, and even if he is fighting for his family, it's not easy for him to admit it, so this power is part of his dormant power. Why is that power greater for Vegeta? Maybe because Vegeta cares about his loved ones more deeply than Goku, since he is more mature. Vegeta doesn't stay dead & abandons his family to train.

I can't find the page where this mysterious power you are referring to was ever brought up except concerning Gohan.

It's there in the Viz adaptation of the manga:

"I think I see at last why I could never beat you. I thought it was because you had people to protect. I thought that desire created some unfathomable power in you. But I have the same desire now. I have others to protect. And yet... I still fight to win... to enjoy it to kill enemies... to puff up my pride. Not you. You've never fought to win. You fight to better yourself. To push your limits."

And it's there in the original anime as well:

"At first, I thought it was because you had something to protect, that having a strong mind towards defending something gave rise to some mysterious power... That certainly may be true, but if that were it, then it would have been the same for me, now. It was to have my own way, it was for my own enjoyment, it was to kill my enemies, and it was for my own pride that I had fought... But, Kakarotto, you were different. You don't fight in order to win, you fight in order to be certain you do not lose, and in order to keep reaching your limits."

I told you, it's in Vegeta's speech about Goku being #1. If you can't find it there, you have a bad source.

[rereboy]

It does have an explanation. It's been hypothesized by Vegeta that you can get extra power by having something to protect, and Watanabe confirms that Vegeta got stronger because he wanted to protect Bulma.

As for the "it never worked like that in DB", it's a new thing like Super Saiyan God in the movie. Just because it never happened before doesn't mean it can't happen.

Vegeta's explanation/conclusion in the manga was that he is equal to Goku in regards to protecting people and that that doesn't provide him with an edge to equal or surpass Goku. BOB completely goes against that and puts it into an insane overdrive by making Vegeta surpass SSJ3 Goku with just his SSj2. So, no. There's nothing like that in the manga. In fact, what's in the manga is the exact opposite... And in BOB the explanation is no better than saying "hey, you got stronger because feelings".

Super Saiyan God is a mix of ritual and transformation like the ones we have seen in the manga before. Unlike Vegeta's random rage boost, its consistent with other forms of power-up that exist in the manga, doesn't really contradict anything and its sufficiently explained in the movie.

Except that Vegeta never got mad to protect someone in the manga, ever.

Right... I'm sure Vegeta was all "zen" inside while he was fighting Kid Buu off just to protect Goku and, by extension, all of the universe (that includes his family). He didn't even get a little bit mad in the fight, surely...

Btw, how is that this random power-up "activates" when the people that matter to the fighters are attacked but remain alive, but when those people are just killed the power-up doesn't? If anything, when a person that a fighter cares about gets killed instead of just slapped it should logically trigger the same kind of power-up or even a greater one, since it seems based on the feelings towards the people the fighter cares about... And yet, Vegeta's attack on Cell after he killed Trunks showed no signs of it...

All perfectly logical and filled with sense... Not lazy or inconsistent at all.

It's fine not liking it, I hate that as well. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense.

I don't like it basically because it doesn't make sense. Not the other way around.

There is absolutely nothing that says that a SS2 can't surpass a SS3. Goku, and everyone else, have gotten more than x400 stronger through training during their lives. It may be extremely difficult, but it was never said to be impossible.

And I'm not saying it can't happen... with a form of training or transformation that makes sense. Not with a random power-up because feelings.

Did you see him getting mad like he did against Beerus? Because I can't find that page.

Ah, so now there's a certain "quantity" of rage that he must have? One that wasn't reached when he attacked Cell after Trunks was killed? Or that doesn't count because it somehow makes sense for the power-up to only activate when the person that the fighter cares about was attacked but is still alive instead of dying from the attack? Clearly a power-up that makes sense... Or not.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta's explanation/conclusion in the manga was that he is equal to Goku in regards to protecting people and that that doesn't provide him with an edge to equal or surpass Goku. BOB completely goes against that and puts it into an insane overdrive by making Vegeta surpass SSJ3 Goku with just his SSj2. So, no. There's nothing like that in the manga. In fact, what's in the manga is the exact opposite... And in BOB the explanation is no better than saying "hey, you got stronger because feelings".

Vegeta assumed he had the same "mysterious power" that Goku had, just like he assumed he was a Super Saiyan in Freeza arc. BoG confirms that Vegeta was correct for the most part.

Super Saiyan God is a mix of ritual and transformation like the ones we have seen in the manga before. Unlike Vegeta's random rage boost, its consistent with other forms of power-up that exist in the manga, doesn't really contradict anything and its sufficiently explained in the movie.

Then by your logic, Goku's Super Saiyan transformation didn't make sense when it appeared in chapter 317, because such a thing never happened in the manga before.

Right... I'm sure Vegeta was all "zen" inside while he was fighting Kid Buu off just to protect Goku and, by extension, all of the universe (that includes his family). He didn't even get a little bit mad in the fight, surely...

Show me the page where Vegeta gets mad against Boo.

Btw, how is that this random power-up "activates" when the people that matter to the fighters are attacked but remain alive, but when those people are just killed the power-up doesn't? If anything, when a person that a fighter cares about gets killed instead of just slapped it should logically trigger the same kind of power-up or even a greater one, since it seems based on the feelings towards the people the fighter cares about... And yet, Vegeta's attack on Cell after he killed Trunks showed no signs of it...

Vegeta wanted revenge for Trunks' death against Cell, while he wanted to protect Bulma against Beerus. Very different situations.

[rereboy]

Vegeta assumed he had the same "mysterious power" that Goku had, just like he assumed he was a Super Saiyan in Freeza arc. BoG confirms that Vegeta was correct for the most part.

Vegeta was immediately proven wrong in the manga right after that, and it was written very clearly with the intention of Vegeta being wrong.

Actually BOB goes against pretty much everything Vegeta said. Nowhere in the manga or in BOG Goku has a power-up like Vegeta had with no transformation or training, so, if anything, BOG is suggesting that Vegeta is very different in that regard from Goku and doesn't confirm what Vegeta said about Goku at all. Furthermore, Vegeta said that Goku and him were equal in terms of protecting people, and BOG contradicts that. And Vegeta also said that wanting to protect people doesn't allow him to equal or surpass Goku. BOG also contradicts that. So... exactly what did he say that was confirmed in BOG? Pretty much nothing, only the idea of caring for others and protecting them = power is used but everything that Vegeta concludes and says about it in his speech is contradicted by BOG.

You either agree with Vegeta's speech, think he is right and think it makes sense, or you agree with BOG, think Vegeta was wrong in pretty much everything he said, and think BOG makes sense. Either way, it makes things inconsistent. And its inconsistent because BOG didn't care about that, they preferred to give Vegeta the biggest power-up he ever had because feelings.

Then by your logic, Goku's Super Saiyan transformation didn't make sense when it appeared in chapter 317, because such a thing never happened in the manga before.

Not at all. Super Saiyan was mentioned and explained before it appeared, it was a transformation that was built up, and Saiyans had been established as beings capable of transforming (Ozaru) and SSJ was essentially another biological transformation similar to other transformations that we had already seen in the manga (Oozaru, Zarbon, Freeza,...).

Show me the page where Vegeta gets mad against Boo.

So, you need a page of Vegeta saying that he's not all "zen" inside as he is being beaten by Buu to know it? Wow....

Vegeta wanted revenge for Trunks' death against Cell, while he wanted to protect Bulma against Beerus. Very different situations.

Sure... Completely different...

Cell attacks Trunks, Trunks dies, Vegeta attacks because he cares for Trunks, no power-up VS Beerus attacks Bulma, Bulma doesn't die, Vegeta attacks because he cares for Bulma, biggest power-up ever for Vegeta.

Really different indeed... Perfect sense.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta was immediately proven wrong in the manga right after that, and it was written very clearly with the intention of Vegeta being wrong.

Actually BOB goes against pretty much everything Vegeta said. Nowhere in the manga or in BOG Goku has a power-up like Vegeta had with no transformation or training, so, if anything, BOG is suggesting that Vegeta is very different in that regard from Goku and doesn't confirm what Vegeta said about Goku at all. So, Vegeta said that Goku and him were equal in terms of protecting people, and BOG contradicts that. And Vegeta also said that wanting to protect people doesn't allow him to equal or surpass Goku. BOG also contradicts that. So... exactly what did he say that was confirmed in BOG? Pretty much nothing, only the idea of caring for others and protecting them = power is used but everything that Vegeta concludes and says about it in his speech is contradicted by BOG.

You either agree with Vegeta's speech, think he is right and think it makes sense, or you agree with BOG, think Vegeta was wrong in pretty much everything he said, and think BOG makes sense. Either way, it makes things inconsistent. And its inconsistent because BOG didn't care about that, they preferred to give Vegeta the biggest power-up he ever had because feelings.

BoG contradicts Vegeta's assumption, which is perfectly fine, because what Vegeta made was an assumption. Not a fact. Just like when the manga "contradicted" the manga when Vegeta found out that he wasn't a Super Saiyan...

Not at all. Super Saiyan was mentioned and explained before it appeared, it was a transformation that was built up, and Saiyans had been established as beings capable of transforming (Ozaru) and SSJ was essentially another biological transformation similar to other transformations that we had already seen in the manga (Oozaru, Zarbon, Freeza,...).

But Saiyans up until that point could only turn into huge monkeys, no one ever said that they turn blond!

That's how you sound like.

So, you need a page of Vegeta saying that he's not all "zen" inside as he is being beaten by Buu to know it? Wow....

What's "zen"?

And Vegeta was ready to get his ass kicked by Boo. The only reason he was fighting was to buy time for Goku to gather power in SS3, and later to gather power for the Genki Dama.

Sure... Completely different...

Cell attacks Trunks, Trunks dies, Vegeta attacks because he cares for Trunks, no power-up VS Beerus attacks Bulma, Bulma doesn't die, Vegeta attacks because he cares for Bulma, biggest power-up ever for Vegeta.

Really different indeed... Perfect sense.

You really can't tell the difference between "I want to take revenge" = bad thing & "I want to protect her" = good thing? That's the whole point. Vegeta isn't fighting to kill or for himself. He is fighting for pure reasons.

[Puto]

Just for fun, gonna paste the Spanish translation of the manga line here:

‘Creo que empiezo a comprender por qué yo, siendo un portento, no puedo superarte... Hasta ahora pensaba que era porque tenías un objetivo, y el fuerte deseo de conseguir ese objetivo producía en ti un poder incomprensible... Seguramente hay algo de eso, pero ahora también podria decirse lo mismo de mí... Yo hasta ahora he luchado por gusto... para divertirme... para matar a mis rivales... y por orgullo... Pero tu caso es distinto. Tú no luchas para ganar... luchas para no perder nunca, para averiguar asta donde puede llegar tu fuerza! Por eso no te obsesionas por matar al otro... A mí nunca has intentado matarme... Es como si siempre hubieses sabido que yo un día tendría estos sentimientos... ¡...Qué canalla...! ¡¡...Un Saiyano que ama la lucha y, a la vez, sabe ser humano!! Ánimo, Kakarotto... ¡¡...Tú eres el número uno!!’

[ABED]

I thought that desire created some unfathomable power in you.

I THOUGHT, as in he wasn't sure, and the rest of the speech has him reaching the conclusion that that's not the case, it's about the kind of person Goku is, not some mysterious power he has.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I thought that desire created some unfathomable power in you.

I THOUGHT, as in he wasn't sure, and the rest of the speech has him reaching the conclusion that that's not the case, it's about the kind of person Goku is, not some mysterious power he has.

Well, we have the original manga now (thanks to FatNagger69), so screw Viz:

カカロット···すごいヤツだよおまえは···
Kakarrot... You are one incredible guy.

···あの　魔人ブウはオレにはとてもかなう相手じゃなかった···
...I was absolutely nothing against Majin Buu.

あいつと闘えるのはおまえだけだ···
You are the only one (capable of) fighting him...

···なんとなくわかった気がする···
I think I finally realize...

···なぜ天才であるはずのオレが　おまえにかなわないのか···
Why I was never able to surpass you, despite my natural talent.

守りたいものがあるからだとおもっていた···
For awhile, I thought that maybe it was because you
had something to protect...

守りたいという強い心が得体の知れない力を生み出しているのだと
...That your fiery passion for defending something helped give rise
to some sort of mysterious power deep down...

たしかにそれもあるかもしれないがそれは今のオレもおなじことだ···
While that may be part of it, I too have the same... (something/others to protect)

···オレは　オレの思いどおりにするために···　楽しみのために···敵を殺すために···　そしてプライドのために闘ってきた···
I... I (fought) to get my way... For my own enjoyment...
To kill my enemies... and for my own pride...

だが···　あいつはちがう··· 勝つために戦うんじゃないぜったい負けないために限界を極め続け闘うんだ···！
だから　相手の命を絶つことに　こだわりはしない···
However... You are different... You don't fight in order to win,
you fight for the sake of pushing your limits to the extreme, so that you never lose.
That's why you don't worry yourself over taking your enemy's life...

So, it's exactly the same as in the anime. Meaning that Vegeta accepts it as a possibility, but isn't sure about this "mysterious power", and BoG confirms the existence of that power.

[ABED]

But it's not really. Goku isn't stronger because of some mysterious power that's temporary and emotionally driven.

[rereboy]

BoG contradicts Vegeta's assumption, which is perfectly fine, because what Vegeta made was an assumption. Not a fact. Just like when the manga "contradicted" the manga when Vegeta found out that he wasn't a Super Saiyan...

Vegeta's conclusion/assumption makes perfect sense within the series. What BOG does with Vegeta does not. That's the difference. Like I've said many times, that's the problem.

But Saiyans up until that point could only turn into huge monkeys, no one ever said that they turn blond!

That's how you sound like.

Actually I thought I sounded like someone who said that the new transformation was built up for a a long time before showing up and was properly explained, besides being a biological transformation similar to other ones we had seen in the series not only in saiyans but in other beings as well... But apparently that's all you are capable of reading in my posts...

What's "zen"?

And Vegeta was ready to get his ass kicked by Boo. The only reason he was fighting was to buy time for Goku to gather power in SS3, and later to gather power for the Genki Dama.

I'm sure that expecting to be beaten really works in preventing someone from getting mad as they are getting beaten. Totally normal reaction, especially for Vegeta.

You really can't tell the difference between "I want to take revenge" = bad thing & "I want to protect her" = good thing? That's the whole point. Vegeta isn't fighting to kill or for himself. He is fighting for pure reasons.

Goku, wanting to avenge Krillin, was able to get on his magic cloud. So, in Dragon Ball, wanting revenge for the death of the loved ones doesn't mean impure thought or feelings.

Vegeta wants to avenge Trunks because he cares for him, otherwise he would have no reaction. And Vegeta wants to prevent Bulma from dying because he cares for her. Both actions come from his care for them and his rage also comes for his care for them, for his love for them. So, no, I see no significant difference besides, in one case, the person already being dead and in the other still being alive. The justification for the outburst is the care he feels for them.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta's conclusion/assumption makes perfect sense within the series. What BOG does with Vegeta does not. That's the difference. Like I've said many times, that's the problem.

You haven't properly explained why it doesn't make sense though. All you keep saying is that it doesn't make sense because it never happened before, and you don't like it.

Actually I thought I sounded like someone who said that the new transformation was built up for a a long time before showing up and was properly explained, besides being a biological transformation similar to other ones we had seen in the series not only in saiyans but in other beings as well... But apparently that's all you are capable of reading in my posts...

If everything needs built up for a long time before showing up, then most of the things in DB don't make sense.

I'm sure that expecting to be beaten really works in preventing someone from getting mad as they are getting beaten. Totally normal reaction, especially for Vegeta.

Blame Toriyama for not having Vegeta get mad in the manga.

Goku, wanting to avenge Krillin, was able to get on his magic cloud. So, in Dragon Ball, wanting revenge for the death of the loved ones doesn't mean impure thought or feelings.

Vegeta wants to avenge Trunks because he cares for him, otherwise he would have no reaction. And Vegeta wants to prevent Bulma from dying because he cares for her. Both actions come from his care for them and his rage also comes for his care for them, for his love for them. So, no, I see no significant difference besides, in one case, the person already being dead and in the other still being alive. The justification for the outburst is the care he feels for them.

You assume it should work for every moment that involves someone else, even though it's explained that it only happens when someone wants to protect someone.

But even if you were correct, Vegeta had only trained for himself at that point, because he was still an evil selfish asshole at that point. According to Vegeta in the manga, this mysterious power comes from training, not out of nowhere.

[rereboy]

. You haven't properly explained why it doesn't make sense though. All you keep saying is that it doesn't make sense because it never happened before, and you don't like it.

Yeah, I didn't give reasons for it or anything... I literally only stated that in all my posts. I didn't write a 6 paragragh response to your question of why it didn't make sense, on top of all my previous posts, lol.

You are doing exactly what you did in your last post when you suggested what I 'sounded' like and you just forgot the reasons I had stated. When you disagree with something you are just incapable of acknowleging anything, and you even deny that the person you are talking to provided reasons for it.. You disagree with them so, obviously the person you are talking to didn't properly explain it or provided reasons... You even wasted a handful of posts claiming that what vegeta said was not a conclusion simply because I had said it was a conclusion.. I've wasted enough time indulging you.