FUNi/Toei Comparisons

[Great Saiyaman]

You don't need to be 12 to enjoy good music.

Yeah, because Faulconer's CDs sell so ridiculously well, right?

Seriously, any non dub loving person can tell you that that crap isn't real music. Heck, my dad's made fun of it before (no, I don't watch the dub, but my brother enjoys it).

Hey, I bought most of the CD's....anyway, this is exactly how I feel, it really has nothing to do with Dub Vs.JP with me....

DragonBall (Pre-Z)- The music is very suiting for the series cause most of DB is a more light-hearted fighting adventure about martial artists. The music really does set the tone. But you're probably thinking I only feel this way because the Dub did not change the music. But that's simply not true....once it gets up to King Piccolo, I dislike the music, the tone of DB changes vastly from the light-hearted fighting action series to a series about saving all of man-kind from maniacal demons & being heroes. Yet the tone of the music does not change to suit this dramatic change in Genre. Yes I do relize technecally the Genre was not changed, but c'mon, Pre-King Piccolo is far different from everything beyond.

DragonBall Z- The JP did a very nice job making Opening & Ending themes...in addition, any Vocal BGM was always well done & well placed IMO. However the laxer tone to the music does not represent this fight for the universe that is going on. Regardless of how well put together it, that doesn't mean it belongs. When it comes to the DBZ Dub, I am not a fan of Dub music specifically, I am a fan of Faulconer...his music was always able to well represent what was going on. Take Perfect Cell's theme...eerie, just like him. Or Z-Sword/Mystic Gohan's Theme, perfectly made music to set the tone of awakening for Gohan. However I disliked the Ocean Dub music, boring & hardly there. The Re-Dub, I'm not even positive if Faulconer did it, but I didn't like it all...I was kinda 50/50 on it. Some stuff was good, like Goku's Theme music, but other just sucked, not actiony enough.

GT- Um...well...yeah...it's GT.

[laserkid]

Good fucking lord people. Stop going at eachothers throats over this. It's called a diffrence in preffrence, neither is right or wrong just a diffrent way to look at images.

This isn't a question of art (in regards to pictures) which is a very subjective issue when being dealt with by people who aren't expert-to-expert. This is a technical issue that is very clear cut.

(My only complaint is the lack of dual layer on cells death scene to prevent the bright saturation pixel effect of doom).

3-4 episodes a disc do not require dual-layered discs, they require compotent authoring. This was not the case.

But ultimatly to each his own. Theres no need to be calling eachother fucking morons here. we're all Dragon Ball fans, and thats really all that counts. We may have diffrent tastes in diffrent areas but that doesn't make someone invalid for disagreeing with you.

This board IS better then this, so chill out, the lot of you.

Make sure everyone agrees with each other okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayplz

Some people like one version's coloration over another. Thats not a technical but a prefferential issue. Technically speaking yes the FUNimation discs aren't as well authored. That doesn't mean preffering them is an invalid choice. The same is true of the dragon boxes lacking subtitles not making IT a less valid choice either. You may disagree with the choice, certainly but it doesn't make your particular preffrence any more valid then someone else's. As for the crazy light pixelations during Cell's death I was always told the reason it works on the dragonbox footage was due to double layer issues. If that's in error my mistake, but it stands that thats been my only problem with the FUNimation discs I own. Lastly I am not saying everyone needs to agree, how boring it would be if we did. Just that we can act like adults about it, instead of like children.

[desirecampbell]

Some people like one version's coloration over another. Thats not a technical but a prefferential issue. Technically speaking yes the FUNimation discs aren't as well authored. That doesn't mean preffering them is an invalid choice. The same is true of the dragon boxes lacking subtitles not making IT a less valid choice either. You may disagree with the choice, certainly but it doesn't make your particular preffrence any more valid then someone else's. As for the crazy light pixelations during Cell's death I was always told the reason it works on the dragonbox footage was due to double layer issues. If that's in error my mistake, but it stands that thats been my only problem with the FUNimation discs I own. Lastly I am not saying everyone needs to agree, how boring it would be if we did. Just that we can act like adults about it, instead of like children.

Quoted for awesomeness.

I can come up with lots of things that are absolutly terrible, and prove that this show, or that song, is bad art or that the quality is incredibly below standard. But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy it.

[Blitzen]

Some people like one version's coloration over another. Thats not a technical but a prefferential issue.

I just feel that preference can only cover so many sins. Let's look at it this way-

The Dragonbox better represent how the show was originally presented, in that it uses the original film and such. The masters it uses are based on its original airing.

The FUNimation discs are filtered, second-whatever generation beta tapes. They are copies. They're zoomed in. The colours at times are horrendously different. So sure, if you like altered versions of stuff then it's fine, but speaking as someone who wants to watch the original Japanese version of Z/whatever (or as close as possible), when speaking from that POV, the Dragonbox is better, regardless of preference.

Technically speaking yes the FUNimation discs aren't as well authored. That doesn't mean preffering them is an invalid choice. The same is true of the dragon boxes lacking subtitles not making IT a less valid choice either.

I wouldn't say the FUNimation discs are an invalid choice, but the fact of the matter is that they're worse. Comparing a lack of subtitles, which is a result of the market it was sold in, compared to bad authoring, which is a sign of pretty much neglegence, doesn't hold much water. A better choice IS a more valid choice regardless of how 'equal' you want things to be.

You may disagree with the choice, certainly but it doesn't make your particular preffrence any more valid then someone else's.

Again, when refering to the original Japanese version (and as much as this comes off as being highly prick-ish, it's the honest truth from me) the Dragonbox IS more valid because it's a lot closer to how the series was originally aired, which is what I am going for.

As for the crazy light pixelations during Cell's death I was always told the reason it works on the dragonbox footage was due to double layer issues. If that's in error my mistake, but it stands that thats been my only problem with the FUNimation discs I own.

Here is the thing. The 3 episode discs of DBZ are single layer. The Dragonbox discs are dual layer. One has twice the episodes and twice the space per disc. Sure, one has a bit more in the way of audio/video, but if done properly, it can all look fine on one disc. DBZ's bitrate issue isn't because they put it on a dual layer disc- sure, they would HAVE more space, but they wouldn't USE it, which has been the problem all along. FUNimation for whatever reason do not use the space at their disposal. this results in things looking worse for no real valid reason, apart from sheer laziness.

Note- Sure, FUNimation received worse masters, or didn't pay for better ones, or simply weren't allowed to upgrade. Whatever, I understand it's a harsh business, but there are ways to make sure you're giving the most to your customer which FUNimation simply aren't/were not doing.

[Blitzen]

I can come up with lots of things that are absolutly terrible, and prove that this show, or that song, is bad art or that the quality is incredibly below standard. But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy it.

As far as I know, I'm not saying people can't enjoy their DVDs. It's entirely their choice and good for them for doing it. What the problem here is when people complain, and finally have an alternative, and allow people to know of said alternative, some get defensive about it either due to jealousy, or loyalty or any number of reasons. Some cannot accept the idea someone has something 'better' than theirs.

[Sun_Wukong]

As far as I'm concerned Funi has never cared about their DBZ releases. Back when they were first releasing dvds it was 3 episodes per disc and nothing else, no clean OP/EDs no nothing. To top it all off they used enlarged screencaptures as covers, talk about being lazy. Look at all of Funi's other releases. Yu Yu Hakusho, nice covers, original BGM, clean OP/EDs. Hell even the original Dragonball was released better than DBZ. The 2 disc sets are freaking sweet. I mean, it looks like they put no effort watsoever into releasing DBZ.

[Super Sonic]

As far as I'm concerned Funi has never cared about their DBZ releases. Back when they were first releasing dvds it was 3 episodes per disc and nothing else, no clean OP/EDs no nothing.

Pioneer did the same number of eps for Tenchi Universe and Tenchi in TOkyo at a higher price and no one cared.

BY the way, with all the talk about the dragonboxes, remember 2 things:

1) Funimation was making the dvds before them

2) THe dragonboxes weren't made for outside of Japan. Hence why there are no English subtitles. If someone who didn't speak Japanese was watching them and didn't know the story, he'd be pretty confused.

[Sun_Wukong]

1) Funimation was making the dvds before them

What does that have to do with anything? Funimation doesnt sell outside the US.

[MajinVejitaXV]

Technically speaking yes the FUNimation discs aren't as well authored. That doesn't mean preffering them is an invalid choice. The same is true of the dragon boxes lacking subtitles not making IT a less valid choice either.

While I'm not calling the validity of someone's preference into question, I do disagree with your choice of comparison. Comparing a company's selective (as their other releases seem to be fine technically speaking) ineptitude in making an adequate MPEG-2 stream with another company's intentional choice to not include items which would be of no benefit to their target audience isn't the best way to compare the two.

As for the crazy light pixelations during Cell's death I was always told the reason it works on the dragonbox footage was due to double layer issues.

Nah, that doesn't make sense. Take this into account:

-Average FUNi DBZ release = 3 episodes on a single-layer disc.

-DragonBox discs = 6 episodes on a dual-layered disc.

Now, going from that, the video quality in terms of bitrate should be damn near identical. There will be a small margin of difference because FUNi has multiple languages, but AC-3 files don't take up much space in comparison to the MPEG-2 streams.

So, technically speaking, there's no good reason that FUNi's disc should go all to hell on that particular scene. And I just read that Blitzen already said this basically, but...I don't feel like deleting it

1) Funimation was making the dvds before them

Yes, and FUNimation is still making the DVD's with marginal if any improvement since their first release in 2000. Meanwhile, Toei remastered the series and released it all within 4 years. Not only that, they've started doing individual releases and in a year have reached a point that took FUNi much longer to reach.

2) THe dragonboxes weren't made for outside of Japan. Hence why there are no English subtitles. If someone who didn't speak Japanese was watching them and didn't know the story, he'd be pretty confused.

Again, I use one of my usual statements: This is Dragonball, not Serial Experiments Lain. Not too hard to follow. And learning another language isn't that bad. I'll quote Eddie Izzard to finish:

“But the Dutch speak four languages and smoke marijuana…”

“Yes, but they’re cheating! Everyone knows marijuana is a drug enhancement that can help you on track and field to come last in a team of 8 million other runners… who are all dead.”

And yes, I repeated a few things that were already said, but I've been at work and I'm bored dammit ;p

-Corey

[Great Saiyaman]

Some people like one version's coloration over another. Thats not a technical but a prefferential issue. Technically speaking yes the FUNimation discs aren't as well authored. That doesn't mean preffering them is an invalid choice. The same is true of the dragon boxes lacking subtitles not making IT a less valid choice either. You may disagree with the choice, certainly but it doesn't make your particular preffrence any more valid then someone else's. As for the crazy light pixelations during Cell's death I was always told the reason it works on the dragonbox footage was due to double layer issues. If that's in error my mistake, but it stands that thats been my only problem with the FUNimation discs I own. Lastly I am not saying everyone needs to agree, how boring it would be if we did. Just that we can act like adults about it, instead of like children.

You're right man. a lot of us are taking this way to seriously. Preference does not & never will mean fact.

Facts:

FUNi has more coloring/saturation & is brighter
Toei has better quality DVD's

I choose Color.

[Blitzen]

Preference does not & never will mean fact.

I swear I bought this up, but when you're refering to the original Japanese version, Dragonbox preference is actually moreso fact because the release, in that regard, is better.

[Eclipse]

I just have a question regarding some of the GT screenshots from the first post. Is that a comparision between Toei's Dragon Box and FUNI's DVDs? Cause there's not much of a difference unlike Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. Both look pretty good, Toei's a LITTLE better. Just a little.

But yeah. Is that a Toei vs Funi?

What does that have to do with anything? Funimation doesnt sell outside the US.

At the very least, not extensively outside the US. I have a hard time finding the darn DVDs. Just wanted to say that =P

As far as I'm concerned Funi has never cared about their DBZ releases. Back when they were first releasing dvds it was 3 episodes per disc and nothing else, no clean OP/EDs no nothing. To top it all off they used enlarged screencaptures as covers, talk about being lazy. Look at all of Funi's other releases. Yu Yu Hakusho, nice covers, original BGM, clean OP/EDs. Hell even the original Dragonball was released better than DBZ. The 2 disc sets are freaking sweet. I mean, it looks like they put no effort watsoever into releasing DBZ.

I shall use one word for this. Consistency. Compare the old DVDs with FUNI's new DBZ releases and you'll get my choice of words

[Blitzen]

I just have a question regarding some of the GT screenshots from the first post. Is that a comparision between Toei's Dragon Box and FUNI's DVDs? Cause there's not much of a difference unlike Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. Both look pretty good, Toei's a LITTLE better. Just a little.

Thing is, they're scaled down images in some cases. The real difference is seen when there's actual motion when you watch the DVDs together, or side by side or whatever. Unfortunantly this isnt possible for everyone.

[Great Saiyaman]

Preference does not & never will mean fact.

I swear I bought this up, but when you're refering to the original Japanese version, Dragonbox preference is actually moreso fact because the release, in that regard, is better.

Nothing is more-so fact, it's all an opinion. Regardless of if it's the Original.

[Blitzen]

Nothing is more-so fact, it's all an opinion. Regardless of if it's the Original.

You're not listening. You simply aren't comprehending what I am saying-

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, however opinions can, on a lot of occasions, be wrong. Entitlement isn't wrong, however.

Now, if I want to watch the original japanese version of Z, as close to it's original broadcast as possible (while taking into account time and medium differences, plus availability of technology), the Dragonbox is superior to FUNimations discs. This isn't a disputable fact because it's correct- it retains higher quality audio, more accurate colours, episode previews, chronology, original openings and endings and whatever else. Preference in what you're more comfortable with isn't the issue here, because this isn't what we're ultimatly going for (it does play a part, though).

[Grandmaster J]

I finally was able to obtain the Dragonbox: The Movies set a few days ago. I've been watching them ever since. The quality all around is unbelievable compared to the FUNi movies I have. My jaw dropped at first sight of DBZ movie #1, which was the first one I watched. You have to see them on your TV to believe it. Even the Dragon Ball movies looks fantastic! Some might complain because of all the movies being in widescreen. I, myself, prefer the widescreen versions. No reason really. I just feel that they look much better in this format.

I also obtained a large number of the Dragonbox Z singles (eps. #1 - the end of the Frieza saga). Those, too, are freakin' fantastic. I was expecting the audio to be as clear as the movies (for some stupid reason), but I'm not complaining in the least bit. They're still 10 times better than the FUNi versions. It's like watching them for the first time all over again. The lighting and color are very different from what I'm used to seeing. It looks like REAL anime.

Anyway, I just wanted to share my thoughts with you guys.

[Great Saiyaman]

Nothing is more-so fact, it's all an opinion. Regardless of if it's the Original.

You're not listening. You simply aren't comprehending what I am saying-

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, however opinions can, on a lot of occasions, be wrong. Entitlement isn't wrong, however.

Now, if I want to watch the original japanese version of Z, as close to it's original broadcast as possible (while taking into account time and medium differences, plus availability of technology), the Dragonbox is superior to FUNimations discs. This isn't a disputable fact because it's correct- it retains higher quality audio, more accurate colours, episode previews, chronology, original openings and endings and whatever else. Preference in what you're more comfortable with isn't the issue here, because this isn't what we're ultimatly going for (it does play a part, though).

Well that's obv, if you want to get as close to the Original as you can get then yes DragonBox is a fact. But which look is better has no fact is what I am saying.

[Blitzen]

it's all an opinion. Regardless of if it's the Original.

Well that's obv, if you want to get as close to the Original as you can get then yes DragonBox is a fact. But which look is better has no fact is what I am saying.

So at one point you're saying it's an opinion regardless of the original, but then you're saying it is? Unless you mean that 'just because its the original version, it doesn't matter' rather than 'if you prefer the original version, that's the way to go', but either way, leads to a different point-

You'll find on any number of home video.DVD/theatre forums when people want a DVD release, or have complaints about DVD releases, one thing people will bring up as a somewhat universal constant is colouring. Stuff is supposed to be coloured as it was meant to be, taking into account technology and such. There are people out there who are experts at this, who dedicate time, money, and what not to pursuits in this feild. You'd find more experts and more people who know more than you, agreeing that "original colours = better". In every argument and debate there IS leeway for "it's just an opinion" but since this is a technical aspect (which isn't, but rather tied into, an artistic one*), the more experts and informed people agreeing with you will make your opinion 'right', not just due to sheer numbers in agreement, but because they know what they're talking about due to actual experience.

*Even artistic merits can be debated to a yes and no level, because there are people who once again, dedicate their lives and such to the pursuit of higher knowledge.

[Great Saiyaman]

What I mean was if what you like is the Original then it's a fact that you should logically go with the DragonBox....but the Dragon Box's superiority is not a fact.

Anyway, what you are saying is still not a fact. Just because people are "experts" doesn't mean that what they are saying is true. Things have to be proven using undiputable evidence & by that I don't mean a majority of people agreeing. By that I mean the Law of Gravity on earth. Even if a poll which polled all 6 Billion people on earth & everyone but me said they profer the Original, it's still not a fact. Regardless of what is original or what "experts" say, Coloring of Anime will never be a fact. We could poll the entire US & ask which is tastier, a Hamburger or a Cricket. 98% of those people will say a burger, but in some places, Crickets and other bugs are delecasies. So those other 2% of the people aren't wrong, they just have different taste then the Hamburger lovers. If you want it put in terms of experts, Pro food critics would also go in favor of hamburger, but that doesn't mean they're right.

[laserkid]

Some people like one version's coloration over another. Thats not a technical but a prefferential issue.

I just feel that preference can only cover so many sins. Let's look at it this way-

The Dragonbox better represent how the show was originally presented, in that it uses the original film and such. The masters it uses are based on its original airing.

The FUNimation discs are filtered, second-whatever generation beta tapes. They are copies. They're zoomed in. The colours at times are horrendously different. So sure, if you like altered versions of stuff then it's fine, but speaking as someone who wants to watch the original Japanese version of Z/whatever (or as close as possible), when speaking from that POV, the Dragonbox is better, regardless of preference.

Technically speaking yes the FUNimation discs aren't as well authored. That doesn't mean preffering them is an invalid choice. The same is true of the dragon boxes lacking subtitles not making IT a less valid choice either.

I wouldn't say the FUNimation discs are an invalid choice, but the fact of the matter is that they're worse. Comparing a lack of subtitles, which is a result of the market it was sold in, compared to bad authoring, which is a sign of pretty much neglegence, doesn't hold much water. A better choice IS a more valid choice regardless of how 'equal' you want things to be.

You may disagree with the choice, certainly but it doesn't make your particular preffrence any more valid then someone else's.

Again, when refering to the original Japanese version (and as much as this comes off as being highly prick-ish, it's the honest truth from me) the Dragonbox IS more valid because it's a lot closer to how the series was originally aired, which is what I am going for.

As for the crazy light pixelations during Cell's death I was always told the reason it works on the dragonbox footage was due to double layer issues. If that's in error my mistake, but it stands that thats been my only problem with the FUNimation discs I own.

Here is the thing. The 3 episode discs of DBZ are single layer. The Dragonbox discs are dual layer. One has twice the episodes and twice the space per disc. Sure, one has a bit more in the way of audio/video, but if done properly, it can all look fine on one disc. DBZ's bitrate issue isn't because they put it on a dual layer disc- sure, they would HAVE more space, but they wouldn't USE it, which has been the problem all along. FUNimation for whatever reason do not use the space at their disposal. this results in things looking worse for no real valid reason, apart from sheer laziness.

Note- Sure, FUNimation received worse masters, or didn't pay for better ones, or simply weren't allowed to upgrade. Whatever, I understand it's a harsh business, but there are ways to make sure you're giving the most to your customer which FUNimation simply aren't/were not doing.

Okay dude I respect ya for it, but that's all your opinion. You have a right to it. But you don't have a right to tell people they're sinning for preffering the video done a way that you don't like regardless of the low quality of the disk. Ultimatly people buy what they like quality be damned. How else do you explain say, Final Fantasy 7 outselling almost any other FF out there when it has exceptionally shoddy grahics? It was a prefferential purchase. We can compare specs all day and say you feel you choose the better set, and for you you did. But don't expect everyone to feel the same way. Same example as above, I actually DESPISE Final Fantasy 7 and feel it's the worst possible FF on a technical standpoint that you could buy. But it is also TONS of people's favorate game in the series. Or heck just between the three PS1 games its a lot of people's favorate, and yet it's the ugliest and shoddiest of the three. But it's still their favorate. When things come down to it a personal preffrence doesnt CARE about objective quality as it doesnt really matter to that individual - we as humans are by and large SUBJECTIVE not objective people.

While I'm not calling the validity of someone's preference into question, I do disagree with your choice of comparison. Comparing a company's selective (as their other releases seem to be fine technically speaking) ineptitude in making an adequate MPEG-2 stream with another company's intentional choice to not include items which would be of no benefit to their target audience isn't the best way to compare the two.

Ah but this comes down to not negligence but preffrence. It is no more less valid to decide to go with one coloration choice then another then to CHOOSE a version with or without subtitles. In terms of FUNimation Versus Toei I couldn't give a rats ass which one was better. ALL thats gotten me riled up is how nasty everyone is being over a pretty damn ridiculous preffrence argument. You might as well get Republicans and Democrats in this thread debating politics, it'd be just as retarded.