Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Rocketman wrote:So why wasn't the far more powerful Gohan made the conduit for the ritual ?
He was stronger in the Buu arc but not now 5 years later cause he doesn't train like Goku and he definitely doesn't have the fighting skill that Goku has.
Promotional Bio's still had Gohan having more power than the full bloods. I prefer to think that it doesn't matter who gets the form as they'd be the same. The difference I guess Toriyama was mentioning could just mean if you use weaker or different saiyans, the result would be different. Or maybe it really is just a strict multiplier on the base no matter what.
Is it possible that other Saiyans will be able to become [Super Saiyan] God in the future? Of course. However, strength will vary depending on the battle power of the Saiyan who becomes [Super Saiyan] God
Or maybe not. Guess it's a strict multiplier. So I guess we can go with the base Gohan theory that it's weaker than base Goku and his Ultimate state doesn't count. He was only Ultimate because of a mess up and was really an SSJ the whole time. Or as Kaboom put it, Goku called dibs.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
I figure they didn't use Gohan because he's now weaker than SSJ3 Goku on account of not training for 5 or so years. After all, he did go SSJ for the SSJG ritual when he shouldn't have needed to.
Captain Christopher Pike wrote:The away team will consist of myself, Cadet Kirk, Mr. Sulu, and Ensign Olsen.
Freeza Heika wrote:
for the land of the cool, and the home of the Appule
The question isn't really whether Gohan can go SSJG or not (there's no reason he wouldn't be able to), but whether he can "absorb" that power like Goku did. I honestly think he can't because he doesn't have that blood knight, fighting-loving, nature of the full-bloods. I mean, the guy apparently even lost his mystic powers...
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
Besides, Goku is stronger than Gohan in base. BoG confirms that Ultimate is a different state from base, though we don't know how Ultimate & Super Saiyan God would blend, or if they would blend.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
RandomGuy96 wrote:No, because they're not ~~Goku~~, and the form was only created to wank ~~Goku~~.
These types of answers are REALLY getting old. Can we all please start trying to refrain from them?
The simple fact of the matter is that Goku is the main character of the entire Dragon Ball franchise, so the spotlight is almost always going to be on him to some extent. Obviously there are some things like GT where that spotlight was focused a little too narrowly and brightly. But acting like anything and everything that benefits him or casts him in the hero's role is just "Goku-wanking" is a drastic and frankly annoying exaggeration.
Especially since, you know, "in-universe".
Toriyama is an in-universe God, and the most powerful of all. Obviously, since he can completely bend the universe to wank Goku.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Sure is a lot of Goku hate on a forum about Dragon Ball Z.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:I swear, the Gohan fanboys won't be happy unless he just bends over and farts all of Freeza's men into the sun.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
Honestly, this would only make me slightly satisfied. To make me happy, he'd also have to grab Freeza by the tail, drag him to the nearest toilet, and give him swirlies until he submits and calls him "daddy."
ZazamPow wrote:Sure is a lot of Goku hate on a forum about Dragon Ball Z.
Pretty much this. And when the complaints are nothing but 'lolz Goooookkkuuuu waaaahhhh', there's really nothing of merit to talk about. I mean, really. What is the point of debating if someone is just going to state their side of the argument like that? Repeatedly? EVERY SINGLE TIME.
I'm seriously beginning to question what some people even like about the franchise anymore at this point if every single one of their posts seems to be about how they hate everything ever.
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ZazamPow wrote:Sure is a lot of Goku hate on a forum about Dragon Ball Z.
Pretty much this. And when the complaints are nothing but 'lolz Goooookkkuuuu waaaahhhh', there's really nothing of merit to talk about. I mean, really. What is the point of debating if someone is just going to state their side of the argument like that? Repeatedly? EVERY SINGLE TIME.
I'm seriously beginning to question what some people even like about the franchise anymore at this point if every single one of their posts seems to be about how they hate everything ever.
Lucky for me I still love Goku even if I'm somewhat on the Lolz Goku wah train. Not much to talk about if that's the only thing written. I more or less abandon a series if I can't enjoy it, if I feel other characters get the scraps or nothing.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Saiga wrote:Toriyama is an in-universe God, and the most powerful of all. Obviously, since he can completely bend the universe to wank Goku
I almost forgot about this. Toriyama is an acknowledged in-universe character who shows up a few times in the series itself, and is stated in the guidebooks to be the highest of the gods. So "Toriyama wanted it that way to wank Goku" is actually an entirely valid in-universe answer.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Saiga wrote:Toriyama is an in-universe God, and the most powerful of all. Obviously, since he can completely bend the universe to wank Goku
I almost forgot about this. Toriyama is an acknowledged in-universe character who shows up a few times in the series itself, and is stated in the guidebooks to be the highest of the gods. So "Toriyama wanted it that way to wank Goku" is actually an entirely valid in-universe answer.
Is he ever seen in the anime of z speaking of which?
My problem is and has always been with ~*Free Power*~. A long, long time ago, I tore into Gohan for his magical free powerup gained at the cost of sitting on his ass for 25 hours.
But now that GT's Goku-worship is the way of things, there's no point in harping on that terribad story point, since they've literally made that old joke "Godku" a reality.
As I said in another thread:
I don't think the problem is that Goku is the main character, it's that he's effectively the ONLY character now.
Yes, he was dominant back in DB, but DB also had three huge tournament arcs where everybody else got to have plots and struggles and show off their skills. And Z obviously splintered into a bunch of character arcs running side-by-side, with Goku the first among equals (Freeza is the only major problem that Goku solves alone - Vegeta wrecks his face, he says he can't fight the Androids any better than Vegeta or Trunks, he gives up vs Cell, and barely matches a depowered Buu and has to use the Spirit Bomb).
Ever since the Buu arc ended, it's been all Goku all the time. No tournaments, no side plots, just everybody getting chumped instantly and Godku (literally Godku now) descending from Olympus to save the day. Everything unique about anybody is being stripped away - Fusion has been discarded completely, Gohan's lost both his unique black-haired battle form, now the generic end result of MOUNTAIN TRAINING (and being given to Goku for his incredible efforts of standing in the middle of a circle), and his unique rage boosts, and they keep jamming things into the 10 year gap so Uub isn't there.
Rocketman wrote:My problem is and has always been with ~*Free Power*~. A long, long time ago, I tore into Gohan for his magical free powerup gained at the cost of sitting on his ass for 25 hours.
But now that GT's Goku-worship is the way of things, there's no point in harping on that terribad story point, since they've literally made that old joke "Godku" a reality.
Frankly I don't find free power a problem. There are too many instances where it has been used in the story, and only the most boring fighters never got a free power up at some point.
I think the free power ups can be good or bad, and if the story was completely void of them it would suffer a lot. Actually, I don't think whether the power is free or not means anything.
If Goku had become GT-Godku levels through training his ass off him being the only relevant character would still be fucking annoying.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Saiga wrote:Frankly I don't find free power a problem. There are too many instances where it has been used in the story
Not like this, though. To fight King Piccolo, Goku had to suffer through getting poisoned all night. The zenkais, overused as they were, needed you to get beat to within an inch of your life and have a way to heal up. Super Saiyan fucks with your head, the Grades have drawbacks, SS3 is unusable by the living, Fusion needs either a intricate dance or a lifelong commitment, and even the goddamn Mystic powerup needs you to have 25 spare hours.
SSG? "Everybody holds hands and UNLIMITED COSMIC POWERRRR" but it's limited! Except it isn't, because Goku is just so awesomely Goku that he can keep using it even though it was supposed to go away (btw now he's strongest phew glad we fixed that). And then the bad guy stops because ~Goku~ is just so ~awesome~ and ~wonderful~.
The villain losing because they fall under the spell of Gokuphilia would be great, if I thought they did it with any hint of irony.
Saiga wrote:Frankly I don't find free power a problem. There are too many instances where it has been used in the story
Not like this, though. To fight King Piccolo, Goku had to suffer through getting poisoned all night. The zenkais, overused as they were, needed you to get beat to within an inch of your life and have a way to heal up. Super Saiyan fucks with your head, the Grades have drawbacks, SS3 is unusable by the living, Fusion needs either a intricate dance or a lifelong commitment, and even the goddamn Mystic powerup needs you to have 25 spare hours.
SSG? "Everybody holds hands and UNLIMITED COSMIC POWERRRR" but it's limited! Except it isn't, because Goku is just so awesomely Goku that he can keep using it even though it was supposed to go away (btw now he's strongest phew glad we fixed that). And then the bad guy stops because ~Goku~ is just so ~awesome~ and ~wonderful~.
The villain losing because they fall under the spell of Gokuphilia would be great, if I thought they did it with any hint of irony.
Oh I definitely feel the ritual is one of the worst power ups, I actually find it hilarious that the drawback (estimated to be about 7 minute time frame) is still longer than Gotenks' far inferior power up, even without the wank that comes after.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Rocketman wrote:SSG? "Everybody holds hands and UNLIMITED COSMIC POWERRRR" but it's limited! Except it isn't, because Goku is just so awesomely Goku that he can keep using it even though it was supposed to go away (btw now he's strongest phew glad we fixed that). And then the bad guy stops because ~Goku~ is just so ~awesome~ and ~wonderful~.
While my least favorite free power giveaway, I don't hate it. Instead, what I didn't like was the "~Goku~ is just so ~awesome~ and ~wonderful~" moment in which he didn't like that he got it from the others having to help him, so it wore off and he still has the effects so it can be all about him. Goku's competitive, sure, but the WAAA WAAA WAAAMBULANCE motif is pre-Cell Games Vegeta, not a Goku schtick. Seriously, Goku uses the genkidama three times in the manga. It's a technique in which he gathers strength from everybody that he can!
In short, I'd like SSJG more if it had never worn off. I'd also prefer if there was a limit of being used once in the Saiyan's lifetime, meaning BoG was both the first and last time we see it.
Captain Christopher Pike wrote:The away team will consist of myself, Cadet Kirk, Mr. Sulu, and Ensign Olsen.
Freeza Heika wrote:
for the land of the cool, and the home of the Appule
even the goddamn Mystic powerup needs you to have 25 spare hours.
Try sitting perfectly still for 25 hours straight.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Rocketman wrote:Ever since the Buu arc ended, it's been all Goku all the time.
That's because Gt was written by Toie who don't like to take chances and change things up.
In BOG even though Goku had the final battle he was still no match against Beerus and if anything Vegeta left a bigger impression on Beerus then Goku did due to what he was able to do without the Ssjg form.
And based of what we can speculate from FNF Goku is going to be even less effective.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
