Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection 'F'"

[Gyt Kaliba]

...and now we come to the headache that I mentioned occasionally getting in another thread. Oy. I really, really don't get what it is that some of you even still enjoy about the series anymore when every post seems to be condemning something rather than enjoying it, or looking forward to it.

Count me among those that want a balance, though. I love the Pilaf gang. And I think there could even be some amusement out of them meeting Freeza. But for the most part, Freeza needs to be a legitimate threat in this movie, and while it'd be great if there was some kind of light humorous element with him (something akin to Goku biting his tail back on Namek), once he's involved and the fight starts, the humor does need to take a backseat for a while.

Though really, I feel like BOG did just that too, it just took quite a bit to get to said fight.

[RandomGuy96]

With Fukkatsu no F, we're taking a pre-established character that represents total and utter fear and destruction

More like "we're taking a pre-established character that represents acting silly for its own sake and looking like a weak idiot".

This is the villain who first successfully destroyed an entire planet and then came back to seek revenge.

Then he got killed in one hit.

If you bring him back and lay the whole thing with the same tone as Battle of Gods, you are seriously disrespecting the very nature of that character and everything it represents. I think that's what a lot of people are getting at.

I disagree. I think that taking a BOG/JSAT special-esque tone is the only correct way to go in this case. Unless you think Toriyama himself "seriously disrespected the very nature of the character and everything he represents" by having everyone treat him as a joke.

[FortuneSSJ]

The minority of the DEEBEEZEE people were the ones that gave BoG reviews and called it far from good.
The minority of the DEEBEEZEE people are the ones taking over the comment section saying how fucked up it is for Pilaf to return.
The minority of the DEEBEEZEE people were the ones that gave DB Minus and most of the 2008-2010 specials a bad rep cuz of how bad it is

If anything, half of you guys that like over-the-top silly shit ARE the minority, not us DEEBEEZEE folks.

Again, yall can like the lightheartedness that has been done to death in the movie, but just remember, if this one ends up being the same, more people are gonna make some pitchforks, go to where Toriyama lives at, and chant "PLEASE GO RETIRE!"

Are these DEEBEEZEE people the same poeple that say:
- The japanese dub is bad
- Bruce Faulconer is DBZ
- Bring back Broly. He's the best.
- "I watched BOG in japanese and I didn't like much but now that I saw dubbed in my language I loved it. Best movie ever."

Wait, what?!

Don't like it, don't eat it. Things like "PLEASE GO RETIRE!", "Toriyama is senile" and so on should never be said. Especially from people that say HFIL instead of Hell...

If he wasn't for him, we wouldn't even have the series.
A world without Dragon ball would be meh and a lot of things in this industry would be different.

He doesn't listen the fanbase?! If he didn't the story wouldn't last so long, Gohan would be the star and this new movie wouldn't be more serious.
You've a lot of animes out there. You can go watch another one, if you don't like how things are turning out.

[EXBadguy]

Are these DEEBEEZEE people the same poeple that say:
- The japanese dub is bad
- Bruce Faulconer is DBZ
- Bring back Broly. He's the best.
- "I watched BOG in japanese and I didn't like much but now that I saw dubbed in my language I loved it."

Hate to admit it, but yeah we are those people. I'll agree on the Broly part though, that'd sound more fucked up then Frieza reviving. As I said many times now, Toriyama better surprise me with the reason why he decide to bring back Frieza.

snip

Man, you're the best!

[dbzfan7]

It's supposed to sound ridiculous. Represents the monster truck rally crap some people seem to be expecting.

Not the word itself. Just the general attitude it gives off by using it. It's tiring.

I'd rather pay no mind to that type of fan and let their opinions fade into obscurity rather than trying to convince them in a circular argument or belittle them with such terms.

The humour in Battle of Gods works because Beerus is an absurd character. The whole tone of the film is perfectly suited to its characters from start to finish. Some might argue that Pilaf's inclusion was a little bloated but that's as far as I'm willing to accept.

However, this time around, I do see that type of fan's point of view. I feel it's being incredibly misrepresented with people taking one extreme or the other but it's not totally invalid. I don't feel like this is just a bunch of people going, 'Hey! Give me EPIC DBZ!'.

With Fukkatsu no F, we're taking a pre-established character that represents total and utter fear and destruction. This is the villain who first successfully destroyed an entire planet and then came back to seek revenge. He's maniacal, ruthless and terrifying. His return needs to mean something significant.

If you bring him back and lay the whole thing with the same tone as Battle of Gods, you are seriously disrespecting the very nature of that character and everything it represents. I think that's what a lot of people are getting at.

Most of us here understand that Dragon Ball is laid thick with comical elements, but it's also packed with iconic villains who are the furthest thing from funny.

If you're bringing them back in a serious capacity, it needs to be done tastefully.

Well I'm not sure if you've seen the term used a lot recently, but I hardly see that kind of attitude much.

Personally I think the best serious moments, are the ones that are rare and just suck out the positive feelings. I'd totally like to see some comedic Freeza, kinda like how he seemed a bit embarrassed of his Ginyu Force. I do agree I'd like some serious stuff too, but dear lord some people treat things like being serious is all that matters. Besides gritty showing it's tone everywhere and I'm glad to see Dragon Ball not falling into that category.

Are these DEEBEEZEE people the same poeple that say:
- The japanese dub is bad
- Bruce Faulconer is DBZ
- Bring back Broly. He's the best.
- "I watched BOG in japanese and I didn't like much but now that I saw dubbed in my language I loved it. Best movie ever."

Wait, what?!

Don't like it, don't eat it. Things like "PLEASE GO RETIRE!", "Toriyama is senile" and so on should never be said. Especially from people that say HFIL instead of Hell...

If he wasn't for him, we wouldn't even have the series.
A world without Dragon ball would be meh and a lot of things in this industry would be different.

He doesn't listen the fanbase?! If he didn't the story wouldn't last so long, Gohan would be the star and this new movie wouldn't be more serious.
You've a lot of animes out there. You can go watch another one, if you don't like how things are turning out.

Yep those are the DEEBEEZEE people.

Though I disagree with the whole Toriyama and his fanbase thing. He's more of betraying expectations. People didn't want Vegeta to be killed, so he kills Vegeta.

[Chuquita]

I would not have magenta haired ssjg Gokû if things were gritty.

That said, that used the word zetsubou in describing F, they rarely use that word, if they use it I hope they mean it.

But I still want to see Gokû and Vegeta classmates/roomates at Beerus' place shenanigans. >_>

Balance. A balance is good.

[Ajay]

I disagree. I think that taking a BOG/JSAT special-esque tone is the only correct way to go in this case. Unless you think Toriyama himself "seriously disrespected the very nature of the character and everything he represents" by having everyone treat him as a joke.

If you're referring to Trunks killing him then yeah, I didn't love that.

Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic moment and it's beautifully realised in the anime but it cheapens the character all for the sake of establishing Trunks' strength.

[FortuneSSJ]

Though I disagree with the whole Toriyama and his fanbase thing. He's more of betraying expectations. People didn't want Vegeta to be killed, so he kills Vegeta.

Its a mix. People wanted Goku back, he brought Goku back. People wanted Goku vs Vegeta round 2, he made it happen.
He likes to surprise but cares enough about the fanbase.

I hope he surprises again with this movie.

Balance. A balance is good.

That's what i want. But I wouldn't mind if we had a little more action action than comedy.
At least, even the F poster is darker.

[DragonBoxZTheMovies]

Anyone know what the deal is with this "Anime Japan 2015" event? I've been seeing it floating around a lot lately.
http://www.koepota.jp/eventschedule/201 ... een05.html

[Herms]

If you're referring to Trunks killing him then yeah, I didn't love that.

Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic moment and it's beautifully realised in the anime but it cheapens the character all for the sake of establishing Trunks' strength.

It's not just for the sake of hyping up Trunks. By extension it hypes up the androids Trunks is so darn scared of, and overall it signals that the series is entering a new chapter, one where the big bad galactic tyrant of yesterday doesn't mean diddly-squat. Freeza's brought back just long enough to show that his era is over in as definitive a way as possible. Sure the whole "he secretly survived" thing is contrived, but ultimately it wouldn't be remotely as effective to just have someone say "hey this new Trunks guy is way stronger than Freeza!" or have Trunks easily kill some other new character who's said to be about as strong as Freeza. Although that's a route that's explored fairly often as well (the Saibaimen getting compared to Raditz, Dabra getting compared to Cell, etc). It's what DB does again and again, show that the Final Boss of the last story arc is just a Slime by the standards of the new story arc. There's no real reason for Freeza to get treated any differently. You can argue that Freeza was the best villain and therefore they should have just stopped the series with him, and maybe there's something to that, but if the series was going to continue on past Freeza then having Trunks curb-stomp Freeza (or something else along those same lines) was pretty much the only option, DB being the kind of story that it is.

Which I guess is why I'm a bit pessimistic about the new movie. In my view, Mecha Freeza vs Trunks was pretty much the definitive way to handle a "revenge of Freeza" story. The new movie seems like it's pretty much going to be a relatively straightforward re-do of the original Freeza battle (ie Freeza's once again a super strong baddie who Goku has a hard fight against, again), which to me cheapens Freeza far more than the Mecha Freeza stuff ever did.

[dbzfan7]

Though I disagree with the whole Toriyama and his fanbase thing. He's more of betraying expectations. People didn't want Vegeta to be killed, so he kills Vegeta.

Its a mix. People wanted Goku back, he brought Goku back. People wanted Goku vs Vegeta round 2, he made it happen.
He likes to surprise but cares enough about the fanbase.

I hope he surprises again with this movie.

Well I'm not sure how much advice he takes from the fanbase. I just remember him saying he tries to betray expectations, and when he was asked not to kill Vegeta, he totally did. He betrays his own expectations too as keeping Chi Chi around was apparently a punishment he put on himself.

[fadeddreams5]

The bulk of DBZ's fanbase (DBZ, not DB as a whole) in the US like it because of the action and dire situations presented that needed to be overcome, not the comedy. As a child, I did not watch DBZ to laugh because, honestly, DBZ was not orientated around comedy, nor did it make it a primary goal to make people laugh--this wasn't the point of the show. I used to collect action figures and reenact scenes from the anime because I found it cool, and this is why I watched it. This is why everyone around me watched it. When I spoke to my classmates, nobody asked, "hey, did you catch that hilarious episode of DBZ yesterday?!" No, it was more like, "omg omg omg!!! SSJ Goku was so awesome!! He's gonna fucking mop Frieza!!!!"

I mean, this is the sort of DBZ video fans make:
http://youtu.be/NzVW5h-RxSk

The tone? Serious. The emphasis? Action. Why do these people love Goku? Because the way he can overcome anything through hard work, as opposed to god-given powers, is inspiring and separates him from many other super heroes.

The comedy in DBZ was sporadic, but it blended into the action. For example, the Ginyu Force were a bunch of goofballs. However, they were also SCARY, not to mention a big threat. They brought both a comedic and serious blend with them. Another example: a genuine funny moment in DBZ was when Goku bit Frieza's tail. This is because it subverted our expectations of what Goku was going to do to get out of that situation. That said, nobody was like, "Frieza vs Goku is such a funny showdown!" That fight was serious shit for every fan. This form of comedy works because, again, it blends with what people really want from the show. You know what sort of comedy doesn't work? One that takes the focus away from the action for the sake of humor. Example: Mr. Satan and crew during the Cell Games and Emperor Pilaf in BoG. This just doesn't work because the audience is too fixated on the relevant aspect of the show.

That all said, to say DBZ was ever "serious" is also silly. Did it take itself seriously? Yes (btw, this is why stuff like the Abridged series are so funny). Was it a serious show? No. There's a difference. To me, a serious anime would be Fist of North Star, Elfen Lied, Attack on Titan, Death Note, or Neon Genesis. The tone of DBZ was always lighthearted, but the situations presented were dire and needed to be resolved ASAP. The actions of the villains gave emphasis to this tension: Frieza casually brought genocide to races, the Androids fucked over an entire future, and Buu quite literally wiped out the entire human race. Fast forward to BoG, and what do we get? A kitty who is threatening to blow up the planet. The problem? It's just a threat; he never does anything except act like a precarious jerk. Combine this with Pilaf's antics and the overall tone of the flick, and it was lacking that sense of dread, which is why a lot of casual fans were disappointed. Vegeta's dance was the final nail in the coffin for many.

So basically... fuck Pilaf being in a film centering around Frieza. <3

[EXBadguy]

The bulk of DBZ's fanbase (DBZ, not DB as a whole) in the US like it because of the action and dire situations presented that needed to be overcome, not the comedy. As a child, I did not watch DBZ to laugh because, honestly, DBZ was not orientated around comedy, nor did it make it a primary goal to make people laugh--this wasn't the point of the show. I used to collect action figures and reenact scenes from the anime because I found it cool, and this is why I watched it. This is why everyone around me watched it. When I spoke to my classmates, nobody asked, "hey, did you catch that hilarious episode of DBZ yesterday?!" No, it was more like, "omg omg omg!!! SSJ Goku was so awesome!! He's gonna fucking mop Freeza!!!!"

I mean, this is the sort of DBZ video fans make:
http://youtu.be/NzVW5h-RxSk

The tone? Serious. The emphasis? Action. Why do these people love Goku? Because the way he can overcome anything through hard work, as opposed to god-given powers, is inspiring and separates him from many other super heroes.

The comedy in DBZ was sporadic, but it blended into the action. For example, the Ginyu Force were a bunch of goofballs. However, they were also SCARY, not to mention a big threat. They brought both a comedic and serious blend with them. Another example: a genuine funny moment in DBZ was when Goku bit Freeza's tail. This is because it subverted our expectations of what Goku was going to do to get out of that situation. That said, nobody was like, "Freeza vs Goku is such a funny showdown!" That fight was serious shit for every fan. This form of comedy works because, again, it blends with what people really want from the show. You know what sort of comedy doesn't work? One that takes the focus away from the action for the sake of humor. Example: Mr. Satan and crew during the Cell Games and Emperor Pilaf in BoG. This just doesn't work because the audience is too fixated on the relevant aspect of the show.

That all said, to say DBZ was ever "serious" is also silly. Did it take itself seriously? Yes (btw, this is why stuff like the Abridged series are so funny). Was it a serious show? No. There's a difference. To me, a serious anime would be Fist of North Star, Elfen Lied, Attack on Titan, Death Note, or Neon Genesis. The tone of DBZ was always lighthearted, but the situations presented were dire and needed to be resolved ASAP. The actions of the villain gave emphasis to this tension: Freeza casually brought genocide to races, the Androids fucked over an entire future, and Buu quite literally wiped out the entire human race. Fast forward to BoG, and what do we get? A kitty who is threatening to blow up the planet. The problem? It's just a threat; he never does anything except act like a precarious jerk. Combine this with Pilaf's antics and the overall tone of the flick, and it was lacking that sense of dread, which is why a lot of casual fans were disappointed. Vegeta's dance sealed the nail on the coffin for many.

So basically... fuck Pilaf being in a film centering around Freeza. <3

HELL. YES! FINALLY! Another guy who gets it! Though I did like Vegeta dancing. Okay, maybe it's about time somebody makes a thread about the differences between the three(DB, Z, and GT), becuz I think it's derailing this movie's topic.

[JulieYBM]

I think we already established the bulk of Dragon Ball Z's fanbase are not fans of Dragon Ball Z. That doesn't really matter, because a bulk of 'Dragon Ball fans' are going to watch the movie, anyway, even if there is comedy within.

[ShadowDude112]

I think we already established the bulk of Dragon Ball Z's fanbase are not fans of Dragon Ball Z.

Go away. Do you realize how pretentious you sound? Sure, maybe they're not as big a fan of the series as you are, but they're still fans in some respect.

[Big Momma]

Though I disagree with the whole Toriyama and his fanbase thing. He's more of betraying expectations. People didn't want Vegeta to be killed, so he kills Vegeta.

But that's kind of what makes him good, though. You can't just give people what they want all of the time, and just play to their expectations. One of the biggest thing a storyteller wants is a strong reaction out of the audience, be it negative or positive. You have to toy with people's expectations to keep them on the edge of their seats, not knowing what could come next. Look at Game of Thrones. Literally no one is safe from dying in that series, and that's why people love it so much. It make the suspense that much stronger.

[JulieYBM]

Though I disagree with the whole Toriyama and his fanbase thing. He's more of betraying expectations. People didn't want Vegeta to be killed, so he kills Vegeta.

But that's kind of what makes him good, though. You can't just give people what they want all of the time, and just play to their expectations. One of the biggest thing a storyteller wants is a strong reaction out of the audience, be it negative or positive. You have to toy with people's expectations to keep them on the edge of their seats, not knowing what could come next. Look at Game of Thrones. Literally no one is safe from dying in that series, and that's why people love it so much. It make the suspense that much stronger.

Indeedy, this is the same guy who intentionally drew his characters less round just to screw with the folks who wanted him to go back to his older style.

[EXBadguy]

I think we already established the bulk of Dragon Ball Z's fanbase are not fans of Dragon Ball Z.

You nuts? Oh, I and the rest of the people who grew up with Z are sorry for liking it for different reasons.

Though I disagree with the whole Toriyama and his fanbase thing. He's more of betraying expectations. People didn't want Vegeta to be killed, so he kills Vegeta.

But that's kind of what makes him good, though. You can't just give people what they want all of the time, and just play to their expectations. One of the biggest thing a storyteller wants is a strong reaction out of the audience, be it negative or positive. You have to toy with people's expectations to keep them on the edge of their seats, not knowing what could come next. Look at Game of Thrones. Literally no one is safe from dying in that series, and that's why people love it so much. It make the suspense that much stronger.

And that's the main reason why I find it hard to believe that he intended to end the series after Freeza.

[dbzfan7]

Though I disagree with the whole Toriyama and his fanbase thing. He's more of betraying expectations. People didn't want Vegeta to be killed, so he kills Vegeta.

But that's kind of what makes him good, though. You can't just give people what they want all of the time, and just play to their expectations. One of the biggest thing a storyteller wants is a strong reaction out of the audience, be it negative or positive. You have to toy with people's expectations to keep them on the edge of their seats, not knowing what could come next. Look at Game of Thrones. Literally no one is safe from dying in that series, and that's why people love it so much. It make the suspense that much stronger.

I don't think I said that was a bad thing. There was a comment that said Toriyama listens to his fanbase, which I agree to a certain point. It's more like to not give into demands, but more like do something unexpected. In his own case it was keeping Chi Chi which he had no plans to, but did as some sort of punishment to himself.

[garnetjester]

I don't know, I guess it's hard for me to extricate comedy and light heartedness from DB because I watched it in the proper order. And I agree that the sillyness of the characters and the fluff is what makes it charming, and what makes the characters endearing in many cases. Frankly, we have all of the Toei movies (except for maybe the first one) for the formulaic 15 minutes of fluff - big bad guy appears - he pounds all the non-Gokus - Goku finally destroys him - the end - so I don't understand the need for another one of those movies.

IMO, the fact that Toriyama is involved again is great because they are his characters after all, and they are more nuanced than their Toei counterparts would suggest (mainly Goku) so I'm really happy that didn't end with BOG. I also have a feeling that this movie will have a shift in tone, but I liked how the first movie in so many years brought us back to our favorite characters being goofballs if only for nostalgia's sake. I'll admit that the first time I watched BOG there were some scenes that had me going "Uh... is this fanfiction?" but after rewatching it I love that it's one of the few DBZ moments where we can enjoy silly stuff like back in the old days.

And about that "Toriyama retire" gang that's going to come knocking on his door for not giving people ULTRA EPIC MASSIVE KILLING EVERYTHING DBZ, I think it's kind of funny how different the demographic and the fanbase is in Japan and in the US. Whenever I see japanese TV shows or whatever discussing dragonball or bringing it up at all, they totally treat it as a kid show. I don't think many japanese fans would want Toriyama to retire, and ultimately, those are the cues he's gonna take, regardless of whatever we as western fans think of the matter. (not that I think that a guy as stubborn as Toriyama would be swayed by anyone's opinions anyway, if anything, maybe the next DB movie would be a full on gag movie just to spite everyone )