Do the Saiyan base forms ever surpass Freeza's strength?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Well, a lot of people already thought that it was probable that they didn't surpass Freeza in their base state, and there's really no clear/strong implication in the manga that they did, so its easy to accept what Beerus says and the movie say. The examples you've mentioned are more convoluted, I think, not to mention that they are predictions, not just a measurement of a character's power.

I disagree. There are a lot of solid implications for all of those scenarios.

SSJ Gotenks > Fat Buu
1. Goku never doubts their power and his only 'if' is if they learn it in time. He also says multiple times that it will be enough.
2. Goku learned the art in the afterlife and has sensed it before. He also measures the boy's full SSJ powers, suggesting he's making an educated guess.
3. When SSJ Gotenks if formed no one contradicts Goku's statement and Piccolo even says "your ki really is absolutely incredible
4. Piccolo only deems Gotenks has no chance and sends him into the RoSaT after Super Buu is formed, not when Fat Buu is around.

Gohan-Buu > SSJ 3 Gogeta
1. Buu knows Goku has SSJ 3 and can sense Goku and Vegeta, and still says their fusion is no match for him
2. Even if he's not a fusion expert, he just has to know the difference between Goten and Trunks (2 people he has absorbed) compared to Goku and Vegeta to estimate Gogeta's strenght
3. Goku specifically says the potara are the only way to beat Buu
4. Goku never brings up the dance until after Buu's absorbtions are gone.
5. The gap between the kids and adults is suggested to be small by what's shown in the manga

Base Saiyans > Freeza
1. Gohan and Vegeta agree to stay in base for the tournament despite knowing 18 and Piccolo are entering, and knowing that 18 wants to win
2. The kids keep up with 18 in base form in a restricting suit
3. The whole base saiyans >> Pocus > Kaioshin >> Freeza business

(I'm not saying base > Freeza is factual, I'm just showing it's not like there's no indications at all.

[rereboy]

I disagree with there being any solid implication in the manga for base saiyans being superior to Freeza.

The mentioned implications for that seem rather weak to me.

[Saiga]

Beerus' statement is wrong, unless Goku has a battle power of about 6,000,000. Which is also wrong.

Kaio-ken isn't Super Saiyan.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I disagree with there being any solid implication in the manga for base saiyans being superior to Freeza.

The mentioned implications for that seem rather weak to me.

They're not necessarily weak

Gohan: "I want to win the tournament."

Gohan (with 18 in the plane and knowing Piccolo is entering): "Let's stay in our base form."

Vegeta: "I'll still win"

Surprisingly No.18 doesn't snap back or contradict him, which would seem normal for someone of her nature.

and I forgot to mention before

-Dabra says the 3 base saiyans have marvelous energy and lumps Piccolo as trash w/ Kuririn

(I'm not saying that I follow the base saiyans > Piccolo train of thought, I'm just saying, people make it seem like there's no sort of indication.)

[singsing]

Ginyu only came to the conclusion based on his battle. He originally thought Goku's true power was 60,000 and later changed that once they fought. We've also seen plenty of examples of guys being horribly wrong when it comes to assessing power well after the Ginyu battle, anyway. Beers never saw Base Goku display anything, so he'd have no way of knowing his power. Both Goku and Kaio were trying extra hard to be respectful to Beers at that point, so I don't think they'd need to correct him. The quote just seems like it's entirely visual, if anything. Goku didn't look that tough without Super Saiyan, so Beers assumed he'd be too weak to beat Freeza without it.

He didn't think his true power was 60k at first, he only said it would take someone who's at 60k to do what Goku did.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Beerus' statement is wrong, unless Goku has a battle power of about 6,000,000. Which is also wrong.

Kaio-ken isn't Super Saiyan.

No it isn't, but it's also not a technique he was aware Goku knew (as even Kaio was unable to master any of the things he taught). His statement is obviously based only on Goku's basic strength. Not Kaio-ken, not Fusion, not Super Saiyan, not "attack multipliers"; only what Goku is capable of by powering up to max and not activating anything else. Because if you're counting techniques, Goku would have been capable of killing Freeza a loooong time ago with stuff like the Kaio-ken, Taiyo-ken and Kienzan, though any of it actually working out according to plan is an entirely different story.

[Hitiro]

They're not necessarily weak

Gohan: "I want to win the tournament."

Gohan (with 18 in the plane and knowing Piccolo is entering): "Let's stay in our base form."

Well Gohan doesn't actually say he'd win the tournament. Even with Chi Chi bringing it up he said he wouldn't know for sure. But other than that you're forgetting that this is a tournament setting. Meaning Gohan and Goku can still win in base form if, for instance, #18 gets beaten by Piccolo but Piccolo becomes incredibly exhausted. Making it possible for Gohan or Goku to win against him. There is also the fact of ring outs which could be used to great effect. Gohan and Goku could formulate a plot to remove a stronger opponent of the ring.

Vegeta: "I'll still win"

Vegeta's pretty arrogant but he doesn't say he's going to win the tournament.

Chapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”

He only says that as long as no one goes SSJ then the conditions will be the same so he would still be superior. For all we know he may only be talking in the context of the Saiyan's. It's also a possibility that he didn't know #18 or Piccolo were joining in at the time.

Surprisingly No.18 doesn't snap back or contradict him, which would seem normal for someone of her nature.

I don't think she is one to snap back. Vegeta made a lot of retorts about him being superior than her when they were fighting and she didn't seem all too bothered by it. But if the context of his words above were only to address his superiority against the other Saiyan's then obviously there is no reason for #18 to retort.

-Dabra says the 3 base saiyans have marvelous energy and lumps Piccolo as trash w/ Kuririn

(I'm not saying that I follow the base saiyans > Piccolo train of thought, I'm just saying, people make it seem like there's no sort of indication.)

This is really the only problematic point. We know Dabra can't sense Ki so perhaps he has some other form of gauging their abilities? He seemed to be surprised at how strong they were so maybe his ability is limited only to knowing who outranks who in terms of strength. Maybe it is the way the Saiyan's carry themselves that sets them apart from the other fighters? But this point is certainly the only real point that could possibly be seen as Base Saiyan's > Freeza.

2. The kids keep up with 18 in base form in a restricting suit.

I'd like to point out that at the time 18 thought the kids were a regular human up until they got up into the air. She was likely holding back significantly as she could easily kill humans of Kuririn's calibre using a portion of her strength. So I don't think this should be considered with the whole Base Saiyan's > Freeza argument.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I'm not sure if Dabra can sense ki either, even if he can, he's clearly not good at it considering he's shown underestimating them horribly anyway since he thought Pocus could beat them.

I think the whole "marvelous energy" thing is just a plot device to get the saiyans and Kaioshin together. Or he just underestimated Piccolo even more, who knows.

I do want to add in the 18 was in the plane with Vegeta when he said he would still have the advantage.

[Hitiro]

I do want to add in the 18 was in the plane with Vegeta when he said he would still have the advantage.

But yeah, as I said. We don't know if Vegeta is speaking in just the context of Saiyan's. Which he may be doing. Vegeta also may not know that Piccolo or #18 are participating. They could just be coming along to watch. And #18 has no reason to get mad if Vegeta was speaking just about him being superior to the other Saiyan's. #18 doesn't strike me as a character to retort even when someone is claiming that they are stronger either. She didn't really respond when they were fighting each other before.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Ginyu only came to the conclusion based on his battle. He originally thought Goku's true power was 60,000 and later changed that once they fought. We've also seen plenty of examples of guys being horribly wrong when it comes to assessing power well after the Ginyu battle, anyway. Beers never saw Base Goku display anything, so he'd have no way of knowing his power. Both Goku and Kaio were trying extra hard to be respectful to Beers at that point, so I don't think they'd need to correct him. The quote just seems like it's entirely visual, if anything. Goku didn't look that tough without Super Saiyan, so Beers assumed he'd be too weak to beat Freeza without it.

He didn't think his true power was 60k at first, he only said it would take someone who's at 60k to do what Goku did.

Ginyu just estimated Goku to be at that level:

Ginyu: "In my estimation, his ability looks like it's about 60,000."

Ginyu realized Goku was more powerful than he originally thought as they fought:

Context: after fighting Goku for a little bit
Ginyu: “I see. Seems you’re even more capable than I thought…”

Ginyu: “You’re hiding even greater power! Did you really think that I wouldn’t notice…?! You were probably intending to preserve your power in preparation for fighting Lord Freeza, but don’t you underestimate me! I’m excited about having an entertaining fight for a change! So don’t do anything stupid!”

Ginyu thinks 85,000 is Goku's full-power:

Ginyu: "Kukkukku... I don't have to look at my scouter. You should most likely be able to raise it up to 85,000."

So Ginyu's original estimation is 60,000 and he changes it to 85,000 after fighting Goku.

[Saiga]

Beerus' statement is wrong, unless Goku has a battle power of about 6,000,000. Which is also wrong.

Kaio-ken isn't Super Saiyan.

No it isn't, but it's also not a technique he was aware Goku knew (as even Kaio was unable to master any of the things he taught). His statement is obviously based only on Goku's basic strength. Not Kaio-ken, not Fusion, not Super Saiyan, not "attack multipliers"; only what Goku is capable of by powering up to max and not activating anything else. Because if you're counting techniques, Goku would have been capable of killing Freeza a loooong time ago with stuff like the Kaio-ken, Taiyo-ken and Kienzan, though any of it actually working out according to plan is an entirely different story.

Which still means Beerus is wrong, because he had incomplete information. Kaio-ken is far more reliable than trying a KienCombo or anything, he'd crush Freeza.

That doesn't mean Beerus was wrong in thinking Goku's base strength doesn't match up to Freeza's full power, but it is wrong to think he can't win from that.

[Regarder]

It's possible that Toriyama has retconned any of those previous implications otherwise.

[rereboy]

They're not necessarily weak

Gohan: "I want to win the tournament."

Gohan (with 18 in the plane and knowing Piccolo is entering): "Let's stay in our base form."

Vegeta: "I'll still win"

Surprisingly No.18 doesn't snap back or contradict him, which would seem normal for someone of her nature.

and I forgot to mention before

-Dabra says the 3 base saiyans have marvelous energy and lumps Piccolo as trash w/ Kuririn

(I'm not saying that I follow the base saiyans > Piccolo train of thought, I'm just saying, people make it seem like there's no sort of indication.)

Those indications are shaky at best and easily dismissable, imo. I'll explain why:

- Regarding Gohan's suggestion to fight in base:

1) out-of-universe, unlike in BOG, there's no intent to compare the base saiyans to Freeza, or even a direct and obvious intent to compare the base saiyans to Piccolo and #18. We can't be sure that the author was considering all the power level implications when he wrote that because the scene intention seems to be different from that, namely it seems to focus on the Saiyans and on Gohan's concern to keep a low profile due to the Cell games;

2) in-universe we know for a fact that Gohan was weaker than he was at the Cell games. And we know that Piccolo wasn't that far off from SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Trunks at the Cell games and, therefore, significantly stronger than the base form of all Saiyans, and there is nothing to suggest that he lost any power after that. But Gohan or the others still don't mention him as a problem as they talk about fighting in base. So, we either assume that they are stronger than him in their base form, which should be impossible since, as we know, Gohan actually became weaker, not stronger, or we assume that they aren't considering all the implications of fighting just in base, which would mean that they (and the author) are forgetting about Piccolo and about #18.

Either way, this shows just how shaky this indication is, making it easily dismissable and unreliable.

- Regarding Dabra:

All of the gang were suppressing their power to remain hidden. Realistically, there should be no significant differences in power in all of them at that moment because they are all reducing their power close to zero. The fact that Dabra not only notices them but also accurately knows who the strongest among them are, despite the fact that are suppressing they power close to zero and that there should be no significant variations in their power level at that moment, can only mean that Dabra's sensing abilities are more complex that we would think and that he can somewhat see beyond what a fighter is currently using, which might include him somewhat instinctively realizing the extra power of the saiyans beyond their base or not.

This also makes this indication easily dismissable and unreliable.

[ssjgbunnyman]

Movie 12 seems to think so.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wIJ-JMzkL90

I have always assumed they matched fourth form freeza in base by the Buu arc at best but never had any evidence to support it but BoG pretty much confirms they didn't.

[Lord Beerus]

Irregardless of what Beerus said in BOG, I don't think any of the Saiyans in their base form every surpassed Freeza's strength. Nothing in the guidebooks or manga back up that claim. Unless you want to throw in GT, then all bets are off.

[Hitiro]

Which still means Beerus is wrong, because he had incomplete information. Kaio-ken is far more reliable than trying a KienCombo or anything, he'd crush Freeza.

That doesn't mean Beerus was wrong in thinking Goku's base strength doesn't match up to Freeza's full power, but it is wrong to think he can't win from that.

My understanding from what Beerus said was that Goku couldn't have relied just on his strength to beat Freeza. He had to have been amping it in some way to beat Freeza. Beerus probably already surmised that the Saiyan's were using something to amplify their base strength. And his theory was confirmed when Goku used SSJ.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Didn't Beers actually see Goku combating Freeza as a Super Saiyan?

[Hitiro]

Didn't Beers actually see Goku combating Freeza as a Super Saiyan?

Yeah, part of me thinks that Beerus only spoke about Goku the way he did to get Goku to show off the SSJ forms.

[singsing]

Didn't Beers actually see Goku combating Freeza as a Super Saiyan?

Yeah, part of me thinks that Beerus only spoke about Goku the way he did to get Goku to show off the SSJ forms.

At the same time, part of me feels there's literally no reason for that line to be in the film unless they wanted us to accept that.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I'm not saying Beers is wrong, but I'm saying he doesn't know enough for the statement to be a fact. Goku was told to hide before meeting Beers, so his Chi would undoubtedly be suppressed. Not appearing to be strong enough doesn't mean that he isn't. Kibito appeared to be quite tough according to Goku and Gohan, yet physically he's shown to be nothing more than a wimp to Gohan.

As for lines, wouldn't Dabra's assessment of the Saiyans without knowing they can transform automatically mean their Base power exceeds Piccolo? I'd say yes...if we choose to not take anything else into consideration with the line itself.