Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:09 pm

I have disagree on the track Faulconer used for Gohan powering up to "ultimate" to be dark in any way. Its the same track that plays when Gohan comes flying in the the battlefield, both are which very fitting imho

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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by Hujio » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:36 pm

Gonna jump off subject a little here, but I did a little digging into Fuji TV's upcoming schedule, which they've established up thru the first week of April. There will be no episode on 2/22, for Kai or One Piece, and the 148th episode of Kai will air on 4/5. So we know there will be at least 148 episodes, but honestly there have to be more episodes than that to fit in the rest of the material still left from Z. But who knows what they'll cut or keep, so really, I have no idea what the hell they're gonna do. Also, the upcoming 4th Blu-ray box set will contain episodes 135-146, so depending on how many more episodes their are Toei will either add an extra disc on 4th box set or we'll be getting a 5th box set. And that's what I know, for now.
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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by Valerius Dover » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:40 pm

Well, it technically came very late in the 90s, and the majority of it came from 2000-2002. So, I'd associate it with that time period the most. Kikuchi's score I would say covers 1986-1995. Most people call it an 80s score, and while that is partially correct, there was still a fair amount, particularly Z, which was the 90s.

:crazy: But I digress. Let's leave this nitpick behind before things get really confusing.

It seems they've shifted things around to an extreme in that clip. I haven't seen the rest of Kai, but is this kind of stuff typical of Kai edits? It doesn't seem as bad actually seeing it, as they're clearly going for a different feel, but I still prefer the original here.
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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:42 pm

I finally watched the episode, it was pretty good. The standout moment for me was when Gohan said goodbye to Goku before being sent back to Earth to fight Buu, I really liked how they used the Battle of Gods track there, very touching moment.

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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by Ajay » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:06 pm

Valerius Dover wrote:It seems they've shifted things around to an extreme in that clip. I haven't seen the rest of Kai, but is this kind of stuff typical of Kai edits? It doesn't seem as bad actually seeing it, as they're clearly going for a different feel, but I still prefer the original here.
Couldn't say for sure. I stopped actively following Kai quite a while ago. I just put it on in the background while I'm doing other things. I only took a closer look at this episode because of the important scenes it contained.

From back when I did watch it, the only stuff I noticed was during the Tenkaichi Tournament. They cut back and forth between two episodes a few times in an attempt to cover it all so they didn't need to keep cutting back once the heroes had moved away from the grounds.

Z kept dragging us back to the Mr Satan and #18 fight while Goku & co. were hunting around for Bobbidi. Kai does an okay job at eliminating a good chunk of it. It does result in long, boring tournament episodes, though.

I feel pretty indifferent about it.
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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by LordCrumb » Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:38 am

AjayLikesGaming wrote:
Metalwario64 wrote:
I'd love to see a clip of that scene.
Your wish is my command - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5guE7emlOI

Includes Gohan's power-up and then his arrival to the battlefield.
Horrible music for the power up scene :(

Says a lot when the american music was 10x better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQrK3UYlzr0

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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by sbk » Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:49 pm

AjayLikesGaming wrote:
Metalwario64 wrote:
I'd love to see a clip of that scene.
Your wish is my command - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5guE7emlOI

Includes Gohan's power-up and then his arrival to the battlefield.
Image
Funimation please go back to your old ways for the Kai Buu arc :lol:

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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by Black_Liger » Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:26 am

AjayLikesGaming wrote:Alright, I've created a comparison video of Gohan's power-up and his arrival on the battlefield. It contains all the relevant composers.

We've got Kikuchi, Sumitomo, and the team at Faulconer Productions. I threw in one scene with Takaki's score from Ultimate Tenkaichi since I think it's excellent and demonstrates how to successfully modernise the scene.
As Gohan powers up, Kikuchi's track is uplifting and extremely positive. It's a fun, relatively lighthearted scene that signifies the end of a power-up that was essentially a gag (Old Kaioshin reading/falling asleep during the process). Kikuchi gets this right.

Sumitomo takes a similar approach - it's upbeat and lighthearted. It's not very good music, and the style doesn't lend itself to Dragon Ball, but its placement isn't terrible.

Takaki's attempt is much like Kikuchi's. You can hear the influence there very clearly. In fact, I can hear riffs from Kikuchi pretty clearly in this piece. He takes that sound and makes it a little grander and more heroic. An absolutely fine rendition for the scene. It's a video game, too, so I can give it a pass for being a bit on the sentimental side, also.

Faulconer Production's music is dark, big and very heroic. The tone is entirely misplaced, unfortunately. It's not bad music by itself, but it makes the scene's silly parts feel out of place. This isn't another Super Saiyan transformation on Namek. There's no drama here.

Next, we have our newly powered Gohan approaching the battlefield and walking up to Boo. This scene is all about heroism. It's the arrival of, what we believe at this point, to be the saviour. Huge, awesome, momentous scene.

With Kikuchi, we get a longer version of the famed title music, M1706A. This song has been used to hype up the start of episode upon episode. It's big, it's heroic and, most importantly, it's exciting. It marks the start of something important and that's exactly what this scene needs.

As he touches down, we get some silence to take in the moment before Gohan approaches Boo. We get some music from Movie 11 (A Crucial Confrontation! The Bio Army). It's ominous, slow and builds the scene nicely to the point where Gohan says 'No, I intend to kill you' before it cuts to the eyecatch.

It works absolutely fine. I think something a little tenser would have helped but it's not scene-ruining.

Now, Sumitomo approaches Gohan's battlefield landing very differently. We get a huge, apocalyptic track as Gohan approaches. It entirely changes the tone of the scene. We go from heroic Kikuchi to end-of-the-world Sumitomo. It's too dark for this scene. This is the arrival of the hero, it's the hope the viewer has wanted. This music makes the situation seem dire and, even worse, it continues to play through a bunch of internal dialogue and exposition. There's no pause to take in Piccolo's words about how different Gohan is. There's no silence to build up Gohan's next move as he learns of the atrocities Boo has committed. It only pauses for a second as Gohan acknowledges he can feel the faint ki of his friends.

As Gohan walks towards Boo, we get a fantastic track from Battle of Gods. It's well placed and gives us a huge build-up as he paces slowly towards Boo and then- wait, what?! The scene cuts?!

Yes, Kai cuts away from Gohan the second he reaches Boo. In the original show, he reaches Boo and we get the line "Hey, don't tell me you intend to fight me!" followed by, "No. I intend to kill you". It's a huge, jaw-dropping moment, underpinned by that magnificent build-up. And Kai cuts away from it! We go to Goku in the Kaioshin realm and don't cut back to Gohan delivering that line until the final shot of the episode after a bunch of Goten and Trunks nonsense.

The track from Battle of Gods would have worked wonders for that scene. The editing killed it.

Finally, we have Faulconer Productions! As Gohan arrives, we have a heroic track that totally nails what that moment is going for. The hero is here! He lands and the music drops very low with a slow consistent drum beat. It's a bit wall-to-wall but it works as well as silence in this case.

As he walks towards Boo, the drum beat picks up and pianos begin to play as it builds to the height of the track. It's a great track at that, too. It builds up until Gohan finally says his line. No issues at all other than the usual, 'this music doesn't belong in Dragon Ball' spiel. This time, it works great.

That was kinda long but I wanted to justify what works and what doesn't in the context of all the music used for this scene. Unfortunately, it's very true that even a replacement score from the 90s handled this scene better than Kai. Incredibly saddening that a team without a full understanding of the series could place better music than the company who made the show.

I can't believe I just praised the Faulconer score. What the fuck is happening?!
I love comparison vids, it helps you see how much they have improved, or how much they have killed it. And to me it's clear which one, I have been in denial for quite some time about buu kai, I still love some of the score, but lots of it is simply subpar, and the placement, OH GOD, the placement, even fan work has more heart put into it. Oh holy Lord, whathever the freaking bull son of a mother trucking (gattling) GUN. Anyone in charge of the quality control of kai needs to be dipped in boiling oil and left purying in Toei's deepest dungeon. This is impossible, for every good scene in each episode, WE GOT EVERYTHING ELSE BAD. I no longer believe it's accidental, I truly and sincerely believe the headmasters of kai are die hard fans of another series and want kai to plunge into the depths of a rotten abbyss. I'm just gonna slowly curl into a ball and roll down to the "No hope for kai" group. Even if everything was fixed in the next episodes, Kai is forever tainted with the bullshit that is. Buu Kai.
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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by LordCrumb » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:14 am

AjayLikesGaming wrote:Alright, I've created a comparison video of Gohan's power-up and his arrival on the battlefield. It contains all the relevant composers.

We've got Kikuchi, Sumitomo, and the team at Faulconer Productions. I threw in one scene with Takaki's score from Ultimate Tenkaichi since I think it's excellent and demonstrates how to successfully modernise the scene.
As Gohan powers up, Kikuchi's track is uplifting and extremely positive. It's a fun, relatively lighthearted scene that signifies the end of a power-up that was essentially a gag (Old Kaioshin reading/falling asleep during the process). Kikuchi gets this right.

Sumitomo takes a similar approach - it's upbeat and lighthearted. It's not very good music, and the style doesn't lend itself to Dragon Ball, but its placement isn't terrible.

Takaki's attempt is much like Kikuchi's. You can hear the influence there very clearly. In fact, I can hear riffs from Kikuchi pretty clearly in this piece. He takes that sound and makes it a little grander and more heroic. An absolutely fine rendition for the scene. It's a video game, too, so I can give it a pass for being a bit on the sentimental side, also.

Faulconer Production's music is dark, big and very heroic. The tone is entirely misplaced, unfortunately. It's not bad music by itself, but it makes the scene's silly parts feel out of place. This isn't another Super Saiyan transformation on Namek. There's no drama here.

Next, we have our newly powered Gohan approaching the battlefield and walking up to Boo. This scene is all about heroism. It's the arrival of, what we believe at this point, to be the saviour. Huge, awesome, momentous scene.

With Kikuchi, we get a longer version of the famed title music, M1706A. This song has been used to hype up the start of episode upon episode. It's big, it's heroic and, most importantly, it's exciting. It marks the start of something important and that's exactly what this scene needs.

As he touches down, we get some silence to take in the moment before Gohan approaches Boo. We get some music from Movie 11 (A Crucial Confrontation! The Bio Army). It's ominous, slow and builds the scene nicely to the point where Gohan says 'No, I intend to kill you' before it cuts to the eyecatch.

It works absolutely fine. I think something a little tenser would have helped but it's not scene-ruining.

Now, Sumitomo approaches Gohan's battlefield landing very differently. We get a huge, apocalyptic track as Gohan approaches. It entirely changes the tone of the scene. We go from heroic Kikuchi to end-of-the-world Sumitomo. It's too dark for this scene. This is the arrival of the hero, it's the hope the viewer has wanted. This music makes the situation seem dire and, even worse, it continues to play through a bunch of internal dialogue and exposition. There's no pause to take in Piccolo's words about how different Gohan is. There's no silence to build up Gohan's next move as he learns of the atrocities Boo has committed. It only pauses for a second as Gohan acknowledges he can feel the faint ki of his friends.

As Gohan walks towards Boo, we get a fantastic track from Battle of Gods. It's well placed and gives us a huge build-up as he paces slowly towards Boo and then- wait, what?! The scene cuts?!

Yes, Kai cuts away from Gohan the second he reaches Boo. In the original show, he reaches Boo and we get the line "Hey, don't tell me you intend to fight me!" followed by, "No. I intend to kill you". It's a huge, jaw-dropping moment, underpinned by that magnificent build-up. And Kai cuts away from it! We go to Goku in the Kaioshin realm and don't cut back to Gohan delivering that line until the final shot of the episode after a bunch of Goten and Trunks nonsense.

The track from Battle of Gods would have worked wonders for that scene. The editing killed it.

Finally, we have Faulconer Productions! As Gohan arrives, we have a heroic track that totally nails what that moment is going for. The hero is here! He lands and the music drops very low with a slow consistent drum beat. It's a bit wall-to-wall but it works as well as silence in this case.

As he walks towards Boo, the drum beat picks up and pianos begin to play as it builds to the height of the track. It's a great track at that, too. It builds up until Gohan finally says his line. No issues at all other than the usual, 'this music doesn't belong in Dragon Ball' spiel. This time, it works great.

That was kinda long but I wanted to justify what works and what doesn't in the context of all the music used for this scene. Unfortunately, it's very true that even a replacement score from the 90s handled this scene better than Kai. Incredibly saddening that a team without a full understanding of the series could place better music than the company who made the show.

I can't believe I just praised the Faulconer score. What the fuck is happening?!
Nice breakdown, sorry I missed this before, but thanks anyway. I love comparison videos, especially when they are put together as nice as this one.

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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by Valerius Dover » Sat Feb 14, 2015 6:59 am

Everyone can have their own opinion. For what it's worth, I showed the comparison to my 15 year old brother, who is getting into composing. He's been watching the series with me, so he was already familiar with the Faulconer scenes. He said he actually preferred the Kai version of Gohan's arrival, minus the scene transition I told him about. And this is coming from someone who's usually very critical of anyone's music that isn't his own.
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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by FortuneSSJ » Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:46 pm

I finally had the patience to finish Kai Buu arc and I just watched Episode 141 NEP. I love the editing. That is pure savage!
Probably the most brutal NEP that this series ever had.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K34d03StgvA
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