Hitiro wrote:You're really just making an assumption on the weighted clothing. You can't honestly tell me that it is a fact that Akira Toriyama used Ki amping attacks and weighted gear as their true power. That is just an opinion you have. We also don't know why Goku needed the radar then, perhaps at that time their sensing abilities were very limited and so it would be easier to get to Raditz location by using the radar rather than relying on their sensing ability which possibly only points them in the given direction.
Weights were indeed a big deal back then. They were never shown to hide their power back then without them. That much isn't an assumption. He needed the radar to track Gohan and Raditz. Goku didn't sense Raditz until he got close to the Kame House. Same with Piccolo when Raditz was near him. Their sensing abilities are shown to be quite limited back then.
You're just making the assumption that Beerus couldn't tell how strong Goku was while he was doing nothing.
Not really. He wasn't even sure if Goku became a Super Saiyan God and needed to see his power in action to tell the difference. Same could easily apply here.
In the movie originally Beerus had no intention of fighting Goku anyway. If Beerus really couldn't tell from just looking and sensing then he would have done a lot more. And Beerus did say Goku's power was inferior to Freeza's in his base form. He literally says after it that it seems that Goku must power up by going SSJ. There is also the fact that Goku never disagree's with Beerus statement that he can't handle Freeza in base.
"It doesn't appear to me" is hardly what I'd call outright stated. The way I see it, his first impression of Goku's power is that he can't beat Freeza the way he is, but he can as a Super Saiyan. Beers see's Super Saiyan Goku fighting Freeza, so he wanted to see the power up close. He wouldn't have been able to gauge it through that screen. There's not one mention of his actual power.
Goku doesn't "appear" to be strong enough to beat Freeza. He's right. A totally relaxed (not even going to continue saying suppressed) Goku is in fact weaker than Freeza. And we already have an example of Beers needing to see Goku's power in action in order to gauge his power. Therefore, it's perfectly reasonable to assume he didn't know how strong Goku was right there. Considering he was on his best behavior and formally introducing himself, there's no reason for him to disagree on something that didn't really matter.
Where is this proof that they are still suppressed after being spotted exactly? Can you prove that they remained suppressed? Because all I see here is you claiming they remained suppressed based on your own opinion. Not with facts or evidence.
Kaioshin's taken aback by Base Vegeta after he demolishes Pui-Pui. Literally astonished at his power. The same Kaioshin thought Vegeta needed help fighting Pui-Pui. Kaioshin thought Yakon could only be defeated in a team attack, yet Base Goku is shown to be on Yakon's level. The Saiyans, as usual, displayed their powers through fighting. Either way, none of them were at full-power beforehand.
When Goku and the others were getting ready to fight #19 and #20 it would be natural to suppress their power as they don't want to be found by the enemy first or draw attention to themselves.
Found by the enemy even though they're standing there talking to each other? Huh?
Gohan and Kuririn do this on Namek also to prevent detection by the scouters. It is the same scenario. But if they are spotted there is no need for them to keep suppressing, is there?
If you're referring to them being spotted by the Ginyu, they weren't suppressed there. And even if they were, they
still had to power-up to fight.
And again, there is a reason for Piccolo to suppress when he goes to fight Cell. To prevent Cell from being alerted early. The only time they need to suppress is to maintain an advantage over their opponent. Nothing more, nothing less.
Piccolo was going to confront him directly, so there's no reason to assume he's trying not to alert him. Piccolo was even
surprised Cell had the ability to suppress his Chi, so it's not like he had that in mind. Piccolo's not sensed until he begins to power-up, Cell's not sensed until he begins to power-up.
You're making a huge assumption that Kibito is a weakling despite the contradictory statement from Gohan that he'd have a hard time against him. All we know is that in raw lifting strength Gohan is above Kibito.
You're right, that's all we know. Anything about Kibito's Chi, Speed, or skill is an assumption. It's also pretty obvious that Gohan is going off of Kibito's large stature, which would be an indirect reference to his physical ability. Krillin thinks Kaioshin looks pretty weak, so we know they're judging these guys by the way they look. So Gohan think Kibito looks menacing and Kibito proves that wrong by having such a pathetic showing.
You can't say that just because of that one feat Kibito must be a weakling. Raw lifting strength doesn't even have anything to do with punching power anyway. Like I said already a boxer will beat a weight lifter in a fight despite not being able to lift as much as the weight lifter. The Ginyu situation is completely comparable because both Recoome and Burta are superior in certain area's despite being on the same level. Therefore it is entirely possible that Gohan is superior in raw lifting strength to Kibito but they could still be on the same level.
But since Kibito hasn't shown any fighting ability that's the equivalent of a boxer.......
It's fine to be of the opinion that Kibito is weaker than him. But please don't make it out as a fact because as I've already pointed out being superior in one individual area, in this case raw lifting strength, doesn't actually mean that Kibito is a weakling.
I'm not making anything out to be fact. I'm going by what's shown. We're shown nothing to assume Kibito is great in any area besides healing.
Recoome has the superior build and more muscles than Burta. Meanwhile Burta is more lean. Going by that then even if they both have the same Ki level then Recoome is going to have a larger boost to his strength from the Ki than Burta is.
No. The same Chi means have the same Power/Strength.
If we were to make the comparison:
Recoom
Strength: 7
Speed: 3
Ki: 10
Strength(Ki): 70
Speed(Ki):30
Burta
Strength: 3
Speed: 7
Ki: 10
Strength(Ki): 30
Speed(Ki): 70
Speed is a special ability from Butta. Their Chi is their Power/Strength.
So the fact that Gohan felt he'd have difficulty against Kibito is nothing to go by then?
*Thinks Kibito looks big and tough*
*Learns that Kibito is big for nothing because he has no strength*
It's nothing to go by.
And the fact that characters may be at the same battle power and have better stats in certain area's is also nothing to go by?
That's never established anywhere
You can't think of any instance where one guy is equal to someone and has greater physical strength than them? Somebody who has stronger punches but can't land as many as someone who is faster would make them equal. So Recoom and Burta would be even with each other. The problem with the manga is that they don't put much on physical traits in battles because as long as the Ki difference is enough then it doesn't matter how strong or fast a given opponent is they would lose outright.
That's why I think the more Chi you have, the greater your strength is. Both Reacoom and Butta have the same Chi/strength/power, so Butta would have the advantage in speed.
I think the only real example of two individuals having and even fight while having different physical stats is Goku vs. Ginyu. Ginyu believes Goku is faster than him but Ginyu is still superior in strength as we see with Goku being pinned. Yet Ginyu thinks that they would both have a pretty good fight despite his superiority in strength.
Ginyu says he can raise his power when he wants, so he probably wasn't fighting at his highest level.
No it doesn't? Just because Beerus was checking his muscle composition to gauge his physical traits doesn't mean he can't be sensing him normally as well. Beerus could just be checking to make sure his assessment that Goku can't beat Freeza is correct as Goku may have something physically to give him the advantage that his Ki wouldn't show.
I don't think gauging ones physical traits means you'll feel the entirety of his actual Chi. Goku was relaxed there.
Again, these are just assumptions. Not reliable facts. What Beerus says is that having seen Goku now he thinks he wouldn't be able to beat Freeza. That doesn't exclude Ki at all, but all we can do is make assumptions. But we know that Goku didn't disagree with Beerus.
It just means he's not sure if Goku can beat Freeza, but that he can power-up into a Super Saiyan. Goku wasn't powered-up or fighting, so it's easy to see why. Goku was being highly respectful to Beers, so he doesn't need to disagree.
As far as Vegeta talking to Gohan is concerned it's pretty clear that Vegeta had to wait till Gohan transformed because he never sensed base Gohan at his maximum. The only time Vegeta saw Gohan in his base form as a kid was after he used up all his energy taking out Cell. So Vegeta has nothing for comparison.
Except Vegeta was proven to be right, which means there's basis to his analysis. He knew Gohan most likely got weaker, and was shown to be accurate.
Because as I pointed out in the comments above Beerus could be also gauging Goku's physical traits to see if he has something that would clearly put him above Freeza without being Ki based. If it is your interpretation of the scene please make it more clear because the way you have by wording your comments makes it seem like you're saying Beerus doesn't have any Ki sensing ability.
I don't see how there'd be anything else to put him above Freeza. If his Chi is weaker, he's just plain weaker than Freeza. Beers can sense Chi, but we have a clear example of him needing to see Super Saiyan God Goku in action to gauge his power. Is it that odd to believe he needs to see someone power-up or fight to get a
better assessment of their power?
You literally said "Beerus clearly isn't sensing Ki like any other person." That seems a lot like you stating a fact. Rather than talk like that you should be saying things like "Beerus doesn't seem to sense Ki like any other person."
I've said in previous posts that this is my "opinion" and I'm not saying any of it is fact, but okay. Beers was demonstrating a way of sensing that I've never seen in the manga at any point.
Or start the sentence with a "In my opinion." It's the same with the Kibito statement. You're stating that he is a weakling as if it is a fact. Rather than talking about it from a more opinionated approach.
I'll keep that in mind.
You honestly can't just omit this fact just because he was using weights. Had Goku not been wearing weights you wouldn't be making this argument. It's still a fact that he had his full battle power while not doing anything. Therefore it is a thing. Regardless of what happens or has happened in the manga you can only make speculations about the why or how.
Nothing to do with omitting. Goku and the others went about controlling their powers differently later in the series, so this example is only relevant for that point in the series. Countless other examples go along with the idea of needing to fight or power-up to give others a good feel for power. It's a thing of the past.
Well you can't say that at no point in the manga has someone's power been noted without them either powering up through fighting or powering up in general because the Raditz example is a point in the manga. I've basically proved that characters can stand around with their full battle power without fighting.
You've only proven that Goku needed to remove his weights to fight at his best. Tien knew Goku had gotten better at the 23rd Budokai, but Goku ended up being even faster and stronger than Tien thought once he removed the weights.
This standard as you call it is only centred around critical situations where it would be important to suppress their Ki to gain a tactical advantage over the opponents.
Or they're simply not fighting. Not like these guys are walking around at full-power. Relaxed is a more accurate way of describing what I'm talking about.
Whether to avoid being detected or to hide power in reserve to make the enemy underestimate them.
We also don't see their full-power recognized until they power-up or start fighting.
These are the only times where we see suppression of battle powers. It is unnecessary to suppress in any other situation.
Do they walk around at full-power? The previous special establishes this as false
So there is no reason for Goku to be doing it once Beerus caught him.
No reason for him to be walking around at full-power, either. Even if he's not suppressed, it doesn't mean he's at full-power.
No, what we're given is that their battle powers do increase when they fight. Whether that is because they are fighting or because they put their power to that level before fighting is an entirely different matter that can't be addressed because we don't have the information. Unless you can prove that the battle powers don't increase before fighting then it is a moot point.
I don't need to prove it because it's not shown. You need to prove it or your point is moot.
Because for all we know their battle power may rise before they throw the first punch because they decided to do that. Or it may, as you seem to think, raise when they actually throw the punches. It is impossible to dictate whether the raising of their battle powers is a direct result of them attacking or them consciously putting themselves at that level before attacking.
Can go either way. What we can agree on is that there's a power-up in there.
As I pointed out before this is a tactical advantage for Goku. The opponents underestimate him and it is difficult for them to locate him while he suppressed. What Vegeta says is that Goku is increasing his power briefly when he attacks. Not that his power is increasing from his attacks. So as far as I'm concerned Goku is doing it himself before he attacks which means he can do it without fighting as well.
None of them can touch him, so it's not like he needs to do this to avoid detection. The only thing said is he's doing it to avoid wasting energy. Vegeta says he raises his power the instant he attacks. The way I see it, Goku's putting forth his power
through his attacks.
Possibly because he raised it before slashing Freeza's men? As I said above unless there is proof that attacks are directly linked to power increase then this is up in the air. Because as far as I'm concerned Vegeta makes it sound like Goku was the one who was increasing his power before he attacks. Not that the attacks themselves were the cause.
Not when everyone is shown sensing Trunks a page after it's done. Not when it's stated that a "huge Chi suddenly appeared" while a "whole lot of other Chi's suddenly disappeared". The huge Chi arrived the moment the other Chi were gone, which was after Trunks was finished. As far as I'm concerned, Vegeta's saying Goku's putting forth his power the instant he attacks. I could be wrong, but that's how I see it.
It doesn't matter if it was a different point in the series. It's like you're saying that this is non-canon or something because they have more effective ways of fighting now.
Or how things worked back then are drastically different than how they are later.
Nappa's data didn't show Tenshinhan's battle power. The only relevance to Tenshinhan that was mentioned was the there were more than 2 battle powers over 1,000. He wasn't there when Nappa scouted the individual levels.
It means all the other levels scouted weren't 1,200 or higher.
Only Kuririn, Gohan and Piccolo's battle powers were stated. And besides that, as I pointed out several times above, it is more beneficial to fool them into thinking they are weaker to gain the upper hand. As Vegeta pointed out they shouldn't rely on the scouters because it could be their undoing.
Yes.
I'm not even going to say any more on the suppression bit because I've already said it numerous times above. Goku was not using weighted clothes to suppress his power. He was using them as training gear. It's ludicrous to think that they were merely using them to hide their battle powers. It was just a coincidence that their battle powers were being suppressed by what they were wearing. Not something tactical like suppressing Ki is in the story later.
I know what they were used for.
No they wouldn't have. You're completely missing the point. I'm saying you're only bringing this up because they just happened to be wearing weights. If they weren't wearing weights then their battle powers would have been at full power and so nothing visible would have happened for them to change their battle powers to the maximum value because they would have already been at maximum anyway.
So they would've had to power-up or start fighting to reach that level, then?
You can't possibly know that, that was Akira Toriyama's intention. For all we know the Akira Toriyama just had their overall powers be 408 and 416. You can't really say that it is a fact that Ki attacks were taken into consideration with their overall powers back then. It's fine to have that opinion but we can't actually say it's a fact.
Of course. The way Vegeta says Raditz lost to guys "slightly over a 1,000" seems to be talking about them as a whole instead of their techniques--or power, in Gohan's case. That's just how I personally see the quote.
Suppressing was an odd thing to the Saiyan's. Not power increases through attacks. Because Vegeta demonstrated that he could output an attack more powerful than himself when he used the Galick-ho.
You sure? These quotes:
Raditz: “Impossible!!! His battle power is rising!!! Battle power 924...!!!”
Raditz: “He…He can raise his battle power by concentrating it into a single point!!!”
Raditz: “Th-this one's battle power is 1,020...30...!!! Un-unbelievable!!!! It's still rising!!!!
Raditz: “Battle power 1,330...!!!! He's gathered a-all of his battle power into his fingertips...!!!!”
Vegeta: “Battle power 2,800...!!! So they really do drastically change their battle powers!!”
seem to suggest otherwise.
Which doesn't make sense because earlier on at the tournament Gohan was considered to have a low energy in his base form before he transformed into a SSJ and SSJ2.
Gohan wasn't revved up there and the energy device only seems to recognize significant power output. Of course he wasn't powered-up on the mountain as well.
My point exactly. Vegeta could sense Ki on Namek and couldn't tell whether Goku was strong or not when he was fighting the Ginyu force just like the scouters. The fact that Dabra could gauge their strengths while they are suppressed clearly points to his sensing ability being very different from other means. So how can you say that what he was sensing was not the Saiyan's actual potential energy including transformations? It isn't a fact but it's a possible perspective on why the base Saiyan's out-ranked the other fighters there.
This doesn't make sense even if you think Dabra's ability doesn't take transformation power into account. Because Vegeta beat Pui-pui in his base form with absolute ease. Surprising both him and Babidi. So whatever ability that Dabra used doesn't give him the ability to determine the persons strength accurately, it just gives him a generic sense that the person has "marvelous energy" otherwise he would have known Pui-Pui would have been easy for any of the Saiyan's.
That's probably the best way to look at it.
He underestimated even the base forms of the Saiyan's.
Kaioshin didn't know they were that strong. Hence his surprise at Vegeta's power when he destroys Pui-Pui. I'm starting to wonder if he even knew Goku and Vegeta could become a Super Saiyan.
Unless Dabra doesn't have an ability to accurately gauge battle powers like I said above? It only gives him a vague sense of who is strong when the people are gathered together. Otherwise it honestly doesn't make much sense.
Or maybe Dabra could, but lost this ability a chapter later. It might seem ridiculous, but Fat Boo somehow copied a technique from Vegeta that was never used against him.
The Kaioshin would have probably had trouble in the dark. But I imagine if it was light then the Kaioshin wouldn't have trouble.
Kaioshin thinks they can only beat Yakon if they strike together. That's including himself. He knows who Yakon is, so he probably knows what he's capable of, too. I'd say he fears Yakon as much as he fears Dabra.
The way Goku speaks it seems he only needed to transform into a SSJ just to light up the area.
Right. So Goku would've did better in the dark against Yakon than Kaioshin? Maybe because of his ability to fight in the dark?
The Kaioshin should be above the Saiyan's in strength unless Piccolo was wrong about the Kaioshin being more powerful than him.
I think Kaioshin's above Piccolo and the Base Saiyans as well.
I also don't see why you would think Dabra wouldn't be astonished by Piccolo beating Pui-Pui considering Piccolo was rivalling SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Trunks at the Cell Games. So Piccolo should be able to easily dispatch Pui-Pui.
Okay, I agree.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
