Do the Saiyan base forms ever surpass Freeza's strength?

[Kaboom]

Not everyone grows in power at the same rate. Piccolo, especially, is one of the few characters we've seen who regularly seems to gain huge increases through "just training." There's no reason to assume he remained inferior to the base Saiyans in power just because that's where he ranked in the previous arc.

[Rozay]

Hummmm... could be true. But Piccolo is leveled with Goku when they face each other in Budokai, and then is still leveled with Goku when they face Raditz after both of them training. If neither of them trains through special means, like a King Kai training through which allows Goku's power to put a gap on Piccolo's by quite a bit (until he himself trains with Kai and then fuses with Nail, at least), I would say they grow around the same rate, or at least he wouldn't grow as much as to which he's stronger than Freeza, yet base Goku isn't around that level. Unless of course the Nail fusion also had effects on his training effectiveness. But that doesn't seem to be the case to me.

[singsing]

I don't see how that changes my point. Power ratings are a very irregular way to measure fighters. I'm going by what the series shows me. Piccolo was outclassed by Freeza's third form. Goku can fight with Freeza's fourth form, even if it is at less than 50%. How much less than 50% that is, I don't know, but I think it's still pretty safe to assume it's stronger than his previous form, seeing as Freeza created his previous forms to suppress his power, he probably can't go any lower at his fourth form than what his power was at the third.

3% of Freeza's final form. Then he went to "less than 50%" and Goku started using invisible kaioken x 10. While still getting rekt harder than Piccolo.

[Hitiro]

Hummmm... could be true. But Piccolo is leveled with Goku when they face each other in Budokai, and then is still leveled with Goku when they face Raditz after both of them training. If neither of them trains through special means, like a King Kai training through which allows Goku's power to put a gap on Piccolo's by quite a bit (until he himself trains with Kai and then fuses with Nail, at least), I would say they grow around the same rate, or at least he wouldn't grow as much as to which he's stronger than Freeza, yet base Goku isn't around that level. Unless of course the Nail fusion also had effects on his training effectiveness. But that doesn't seem to be the case to me.

Pre-Kami's fusion Piccolo trained enough to pick apart an android which would gave a base Saiyan trouble, at least. For Piccolo to do that his growth between the Namek arc and the Androids arc exceeds Goku's by a large margin. There is also the fact that Piccolo, who only came out at about 2,000 ish in the Saiyan arc, trained for a couple of days on the Kaio's planet and gained enough power to warrant Nail saying he has incredible power. It took Goku several months to get his power up to 8,000 and Piccolo exceeds that in only week at most.

[Rozay]

I see. Good point, Hitiro, I guess I stand corrected then. I'm actually glad about that, as it makes the Saiyajins less overpowered than what I thought they were. That's more fun for everyone. I still do believe base form saiyajins are able to surpass Freeza's max power eventually though, but that's going by non-canon reasons (movies), so it's not like it holds definitive weight in the discussion.

[Hitiro]

I see. Good point, Hitiro, I guess I stand corrected then. I'm actually glad about that, as it makes the Saiyajins less overpowered than what I thought they were. That's more fun for everyone. I still do believe base form saiyajins are able to surpass Freeza's max power eventually though, but that's going by non-canon reasons (movies), so it's not like it holds definitive weight in the discussion.

I honestly wonder if Piccolo would have received a greater benefit from fusing with Kami if he had trained in the RoSaT for 2 years first.

[Rozay]

And I always wanted Piccolo to go Majin. But oh well.

[In Brightest Day]

Pre-Kami's fusion Piccolo trained enough to pick apart an android which would gave a base Saiyan trouble, at least. For Piccolo to do that his growth between the Namek arc and the Androids arc exceeds Goku's by a large margin.

And both of those Androids were strong enough to warrant both Goku and Vegeta to transform into Super Saiyan right from the get-go. 19 was also able to withstand a severe ass kicking from Super Saiyan Goku, whose power should have still been far above any base Saiyan even in his weakened state. At least that is if we go by how gobsmacked Tien was at his power and Goku supposedly going all out from the beginning of the fight.

[Rozay]

Well... on that instance, Goku could just be playing safe. I mean, he knew he wasn't in his best condition, and they could not sense 19 and 20's energy, they only knew they were strong, but not how much strength they had. Just throwing this out there.

As for Vegeta transforming from the get-go... Well, he just wanted to show off how he was a Super Saiyajin now.

[In Brightest Day]

You're right there. Still, Goku wasn't holding anything back against 19 according to Piccolo, and 19 was able to withstand his shit-kicking and bounce back once Goku's heart virus became debilitating. So regardless of where you put Android arc Piccolo he should still be far, far out the base Saiyans league.

[Saiga]

Base Vegeta's kick did more visible damage to post-absorption 19 than any of SS Goku's blows to pre-absorption 19.

19 and 20's status is super confusing.

[Tectorman]

Regarding Babidi's decision to not bother using Piccolo's energy, has anyone considered that it was because of the nature rather than potency of Piccolo's power?

We know that Babidi said they couldn't use the energy of the Supreme Kai or Kibito to revive Buu. It's a safe assumption that this is because those two exist within the Celestial Order.

If so, then what does that mean for Piccolo? Half of him used to be Guardian of the Earth, after all. Does his former existence within the Celestial Order "taint" his energy from being used by Babidi?

If so, then his formidable though "tainted" energy would be just as useless to Babidi as Krillin's weaker though technically useable energy, and both characters would be lumped together as "trash".

Come to think of it, had Goku taken Kami up on his offer to make Goku the next Guardian after the 23rd Budokai and had events otherwise played out the same throughout the series, Goku might well have been dismissed as useless and have had a lob of petrifying spit coming his way as well.

[In Brightest Day]

Base Vegeta's kick did more visible damage to post-absorption 19 than any of SS Goku's blows to pre-absorption 19.

19 and 20's status is super confusing.

Not too incredible considering weakened SSJ Goku was still incredible, and there is like a whole slew of instances where a much weaker character catches someone off guard.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Weights were a big deal for training. Never is it stated that they were a big deal for hiding their Ki. That is just an assumption.

We've only ever seen them fight at their best once the weights are removed. That isn't an assumption.

Well, tell me why it isn't an assumption? Can you prove it is a fact? There is no point in you saying "not really" when you lack the evidence to prove it. And what does him not even being sure if Goku can become SSJGod have anything to do with this? SSJGod Ki is fundamentally different from regular Ki anyway. Can we be sure Beerus can sense God Ki?

It means he'd need to see him in action to get a feel for his power. Goku was shown teleporting in the same vicinity as Beers while fighting, which would only be possible if he could sense him. Beers also says Goku's God power had gotten even more powerful after reverting. So both sensed each other. Unless we're going to say Goku had a better grasp at sensing God Chi than Beers.

Except we can only assume things about Beerus wanting to see Goku's power up close. He was going to leave for Earth before Goku asked him to spar. It doesn't seem like Beerus actually considered it in the first place.

Knows Goku can transform, see's Goku fighting in a transformed state. Goku "doesn't appear" to be strong enough to beat Freeza, but he can as a Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan God was obviously the main focus, but he still seemed interested in Super Saiyan.

We have an example of Beerus needing to fight Goku when the Ki sensing is completely different for a God. So no. We can't use a statement for God Ki to back up a regular Ki scenario. We already know there is a different way to sense God Ki and as far as we can confirm from the movie only Whis seems to have the ability to distinguish God Ki from regular Ki.

Beers tells us Goku's gotten much more powerful after he reverts from Super Saiyan God, so he did sense him. Or gained that knowledge through fighting him. Even using the Boo saga, we see that Kibito is the only one shown capable of sensing Kaioshin while the others couldn't.

And with the "considering he was on his best behaviour" is a poor excuse really.

No, it really isn't. He's constantly watching what he says to Beers. That certainly isn't the behavior of someone who'd be willing to correct someone they consider above them in status.

He can still correct Beerus, it isn't going to cause a problem.

No way of knowing that. Goku watches what he says to Beers, so I see no reason why he'd be quick to correct him.

I mean if he is going to ask for a sparring match then telling Beerus that he is actually suppressing wouldn't be a problem at all.

Even though carefully worded how he asked for said spar?

And out of universe the creators of the story would not have something stated that isn't true unless they were going to have it discredited later. The fact that the topic is never re-visited or corrected in the whole movie is proof that the statement isn't wrong.

No. It shows that the statement doesn't matter in the big picture because Goku did beat Freeza as a Super Saiyan. Keeping it in-universe, Beers likely wouldn't even be comparing him to 100% Freeza in the first place. The only thing we know for sure is that he's referring to Freeza's power in general.

I mean name a point in any of the original story where a claim is made that is not discredited later? Goku says he couldn't beat Fat Boo yet later he says he could have if he really tried for instance. It's story-telling 101. You don't feed the audience misinformation without the intent of correcting it lately.

Kibito never had a chance to see that Gohan's power was "far beyond" their imagination. So Kaioshin's basically saying Super Saiyan Gohan was far more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Beers quote is as loose as Goku's "probably as strong as Cell" quote on Dabra. None of these things are exact, nor does the story make it clear which is actually being used as the baseline. Goku thinks Dabra's around the level of Cell in general, Beers thinks Goku's Base wouldn't be enough to defeat Freeza in general.

How does this prove anything exactly? The Kaioshin has terrible sensing abilities anyway. He restrained SSJ2 Gohan and still thought that all of them needed to gang up on Pui-Pui to beat him. Either base Vegeta > SSJ2 Gohan at the tournament or SSJ2 Gohan suppressed to base level or the Kaioshin believed Pui-Pui was more powerful than a SSJ2 Gohan. None of these points make sense.

No, he didn't. He thought all of them had to attack Yakon. He just wonders why Vegeta is fighting by himself because he's not sure Vegeta can actually win alone. The only power he was aware of was Gohan's. He had a sense about Goku, and Vegeta's power was a total mystery to him. Once Vegeta destroys Pui-Pui, he expresses surprise at his power. Hardly anything to do with terrible sensing abilities. Piccolo actually displays just that in the Boo saga.

And what is wrong with that? Should they stand around at full power and draw attention to themselves?

I'm talking about the part after Goku finds an empty wasteland for them to fight. The Androids already knew who they were and what they were doing there. Hiding is no longer apart of the plan. I'm guessing you're confusing the parts. Anyway, Yamcha says they can't sense them because they're "not fighting"--and what do you know, they finally sense them once Goku goes Super Saiyan.

Yamcha: "Damn!! They're not fighting yet, so they're holding their Chi down! We can't tell where they are!!"

Trunks: "Chi!! I feel battle Chi!! Of course!! They must be fighting somewhere else!!"

So fighting or having a noticeable power-up is how they're often shown to bring out their full-power after the Raditz saga.

The Androids would know that they are coming if they had a sensing feature like #16. Even when the opponent is right in front of them they should feign a lower level of ability as it gives them the element of surprise allowing them to finish the battle easier if they catch the opponent off-guard.

But considering Goku goes Super Saiyan and launches an all-out direct attack, that "element of surprise" example goes right out the window. They'd also have no way of knowing the Androids could even sense their presence.

I see powering up as them pushing themselves to their maximum as quick as possible rather than let it get back to full at a casual rate. Powering up seems to be an instantaneous thing.

It's usually through a drawn out power-up or fighting when the depth of their power is sensed.

Exactly why suppressing Ki is important. Do you really think Cell would have stuck around had he known how strong Piccolo truly was? Suppressing Ki only serves as an advantage. In any case. I really don't see why this point is still in debate.

That's still an assumption. Piccolo isn't even sure Cell can understand his language, much less the ability to completely suppress Chi. With that, it can easily be deduced that Piccolo believed Cell was incapable of sensing Chi. It also goes along with the logic that they don't walk around at full-power, as it'd be pretty pointless.

When has large stature meant anything in Dragon Ball? Goku, Piccolo, Vegeta and Gohan all thought the Kaioshin was something. Only Kuririn judges the Kaioshin by looks.

Yeah. A mysterious feeling because they couldn't be sensed otherwise.

That is just an example. I'm just saying their lifting abilities means nothing unless they're fighting in a competition of lifting stuff. A normal guy could probably beat a weight lifter in a fight too if he's done a bit of fighting.

And I'm saying it means everything here because there's literally nothing else to judge Kibito on.

Lack of evidence is not evidence. It's like saying Kuririn could beat Kibitio because Kibito has not shown anything besides healing and both of them have never fought each other.

Krillin's not in this comparison. It's about Gohan and Kibito.

Akira Toriyama says that their are limits to physical strength and the only way to overcome that is through Ki. But if you're physical strength limit is higher than another individual obviously you're going to have a higher physical strength with the same amount of Ki. This is why characters like Burta, despite being as powerful as the other Ginyu force members, is faster. Because he has a higher speed limit than the others which is further amplified by his Ki.

Even with that, there's still no mention of Reacoom's strength limit and how it compares to Butta and Jheese. All we know is Butta's faster than them, nothing more. How their strength compares is totally debatable. I think Butta's speed is just a natural part of his mutation. Like how Gurd's able to use psychic powers and stop time.

So you're saying that every person has the same physical strength limit? We know that isn't true. Everyone in the world have traits specific to them that are better than others. If I train my lifting strength to my limit and you train your physical strength to the limit you may have a better limit than me. Or I may have a better limit than you. Goku also outspeeds Ginyu despite being weaker.

No, I'm saying we have nothing indicating what Reacoom's strength level is, how it compares to Butta and Jhese, or what that limit is. For all we know, they could all have the same strength level, with Butta being the only one with far greater speed because it's natural to him.

So does that mean speed is a special ability for Goku?

Pretty much. Not in the same way it is for Butta, though. Goku acquired the speed from his gravity training:

Context: after Ginyu steals Goku’s body
Ginyu: “Fuhahahaha…! This body’s even faster!”

Goku's naturally faster than Ginyu.

Why can there only be individuals that have a special ability in speed?

Ginyu says Butta's speed is #1, as if the ability is totally unique to him. Of course we know Butta likely wouldn't be faster than someone like Freeza, but Ginyu boasted about it as if it was his specialty.

We also have Gohan later in the manga claim that even if his strength isn't enough against Boo that he is still confident in his speed as he tries to run away. I guess Gohan has a special ability for speed too?

It just means he was confident in his speed. We don't know why Gohan thought he was faster. Maybe he thought Fat Boo's size would make him too slow? Piccolo thought the same about 3rd form Freeza being too slow to catch him. Maybe he thought Freeza's power increased with his transformation while his speed stayed the same? Doesn't really matter, though. Both Gohan and Piccolo were way off.

Gohan also apparently increased his arm strength after swinging around the Z sword. His Ki is never mentioned to increase. Goku questions whether his physical increase will allow him to beat Boo.

Except Kaioshin says "If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up!" So his overall power increased from the Z-Sword training.

We also have things like the SEG which tell us what the training affects. If strength is just based on Ki then why are their strength increases along with Ki in the SEG too?

I think Chi is a consistent placement of ones strength. More often than not, I feel like more Chi gives you more strength, speed, durability.

Except nothing like that is ever suggested? Seriously Gohan, Piccolo, Vegeta and Goku don't judge by appearances.

Piccolo: “The way the big one cowered…that must mean that the little one is even more powerful. It’s hopeless!”

Piccolo assumes Nappa is more powerful based on the fact that he's bigger. Goku also assumes Yakon is slower because of his size. So yeah.

I guess according to your opinion Gohan would also think Spopovich would be tough as well.

Considering he saw that Videl's attacks were knocking him around....I wouldn't think that. More than anything shown about Kibito.

All 4 of them clearly noticed something about both the Kaioshin and Kibito. So I'm sorry but it's ludicrous to think that size has anything to do with Gohan's assumptions.

A feeling. We know none of them were going by power. Vegeta later says Kaioshin's power was overrated, so I'm inclined to believe that's all it was.

Never established anywhere? Have you been reading my comments or just glancing at them? You're just ignoring two points that are pretty glaring. Are you saying that Burta isn't faster than Recoom despite having similar battle powers? Are you saying that Goku isn't faster than Ginyu despite Ginyu having a superior battle power? Are you saying that a character who is SSJG3 vs a SSJ2 with the exact same battle power would both have the same stats?

Was actually talking about Reacoom having greater strength than Butta not being established anywhere.........

People don't have different physiques, muscles and limits on their bodies. Do you honestly think if Master Roshi had the same Ki as Recoom he would have the same physical strength as him despite having hardly any muscles?

Reacoom should be stronger, but we'd have no way of knowing that without a comparison of some sort. Same with Jheese. Based on what you're saying, Reacoom should have much greater strength than Jheese because he has bigger muscles, but there's no way to tell without seeing a display of their strength.

What about someone like Oob who has the Ki of Pure Boo but lacks any muscles. I guess he still has the strength of Boo?

There's no way to tell. Not like Kid Boo had a lot of muscle himself. We also see Oob fight on-par with God Goku when he was enraged, so I'd say he does have Kid Boo's strength.

Ki does increase strength but if you don't have less muscles or you have different strength limits, because that is a thing, then how can you possibly be on par with someone who has muscles and has trained their body to their physical limits which may be superior to yours? We know your physical stats are affected by your physique because SSJG3 shows you can lose speed from bulking up which would give you strength.

That has more to do with the nature of the transformation than physical stats alone. Yakon is big and bulky, but has enough speed to keep up with Goku. The physique isn't everything.

Ginyu believes Goku's speed may be greater than his despite estimating Goku's battle power at 85,000. And he says that Goku is probably at 85,000 after he see's Goku's speed. So I'm sorry but that just isn't the case. There would be no need for the comment if Ginyu didn't honestly believe it. And he certainly wouldn't have said it if he was just not fighting at his maximum. Because if Goku was faster than him while he wasn't trying then why even bring it up if you can still go faster?

Yeah. If Ginyu thinks Goku is holding-back, how does it make sense to assume Ginyu is fighting all-out? He says he can "freely alter" his Battle Power, so I see no reason why that'd be mentioned unless he was doing that in battle. Goku's naturally faster than Ginyu. Maybe the gravity training is why he had gotten so fast.

You misunderstand. I'm saying he is gauging his physical traits to see if they're the cause for Goku being able to beat Freeza as Goku's Ki isn't enough to beat Freeza unless Goku has some sort of physical trait that greatly exceeds what his Ki indicates. Like Goku being faster than Ginyu above.

And I'm saying he's gauging Goku's physical traits to see if Goku is all that he'd made out to be. How would Beers estimate Goku's speed by looking?

Goku wasn't being respectful when he asked to spar. Now was he? There is no reason why telling Beerus he isn't at full power would be disrespectful.

Goku respectfully asked for the spar. He was even careful in how he phrased that.

I honestly don't see why you can say that. There is also the fact that there would be no out of universe reason to maintain the claim that Base Goku is weaker than Freeza if it wasn't true. Because as I said in a comment above that is disinformation which is never done in story telling unless they are going to correct it later. Like Goku apparently not being able to beat Fat Boo. And have they corrected it in the movie? No. So therefore we must assume it is correct as nothing disagree's with the information.

The movie just tells us that a relaxed Goku doesn't appear to be capable of beating Freeza. It's actually correct. You have to look at the situation. Goku isn't powered-up or fighting, merely relaxed and talking. Beers doesn't need to know the full-extent of his power to make that statement.

My point still stands either way. The only way for Vegeta to determine if Gohan had gotten weaker was by him going SSJ because he never sensed base Gohan 7 years ago. So it doesn't matter if Vegeta was right. Your point was that Vegeta couldn't discern Gohan had gotten weaker by his Ki until he turned SSJ. Which is understandable because Vegeta never know what Gohan's base Ki was 7 years ago. All he can do is speculate until Gohan turns SSJ.

My main point in even bringing Vegeta up was that he was judging Gohan superficially. That's what I think Beers is doing.

I've basically proved above that Goku out-sped Ginyu. Are you saying Goku couldn't be faster than Freeza giving him the advantage?

Where's the advantage? The master of speed, Butta, even tells us that speed isn't enough to win the battle. If Goku was faster than Freeza, he'd still eventually lose because of the power difference and tiring himself out.

How do you know the previous special establishes this? Where?

Tarble thinks Goku's Battle Power is quite low when he reads his relaxed power. Once Goku actually starts to power-up, Tarble is able to see how strong he really is.

Beers can sense regular Ki. When is it ever proven he can sense Godly Ki?

Already said why above. Unless you think Goku somehow became more advanced at sensing Godly Chi than Beers in such a short amount of time?

As I pointed out above it's been proving that sensing regular Ki and Godly Ki are completely different kettles of fish. So you can't use that as a point really. Is it that odd that he doesn't need to see someone power-up or fight to get a better assessment?

Yes, I can. I think it's odd. Especially when he knows nothing of Goku's ability outside of secondhand information and recorded footage of Super Saiyan Goku's fight.

Freeza estimated that he'd only need 50% of his power to beat Goku, not only was he right he is a character that has no sensing ability whatsoever. Ginyu also estimated Goku's battle power at 85,000 without any Ki sensing ability. Even if you're assumption that Goku's not at full strength was correct. Why can't Beerus estimate Goku's true battle power? Even Karin could more or less estimate Cell's battle power and judged him as stronger than Goku.

Ginyu not only fought Goku, but knew what he did to the Ginyu Force. That's enough for an estimation of Goku's ability. Freeza fought with Goku for a good while and saw what he was capable of. Freeza had no way of sensing his Kaioken x10, but he was confident that his extreme power-up would be far more powerful than anything Goku could do. It's just a matter of Freeza being overly confident in his power.

Karin had a sense. He knew what was going on, so he most likely saw Cell easily defeat Vegeta. That would mean Karin had already seen Cell in action to have an understanding of his capabilities. Goku even thought Cell was stronger, even though he admits there's no way to know until Cell starts to fight seriously. Beers isn't comparable one bit. Karin not only saw Cell's power in action, but he also saw Goku show about 50% of his power for him to even compare the two. Therefore, Karin at least has information to make an assessment. Beers has none.

No, it is your opinion that Goku and the others went about controlling their powers differently. You can't just state it as fact without any legitimate evidence. It's not like we have Goku saying that they don't need to use weighted clothing to hide their battle powers any more or something. Just because Goku and the others use these other elements now doesn't neglect from the fact that Goku and Piccolo demonstrated their full battle powers while doing nothing. Just because they don't go around wearing weighted clothing any more doesn't make it any more or less legit.

How is it my opinion when it's shown? Everything doesn't need to be stated. We don't see anyone fight at their best without removing their weights in Dragon Ball. That weighted robe Old Daimao removed clearly allowed him to demonstrate power and speed way beyond Goku's. Same with Goku against Tien in the 23rd Budokai. Weights are great for training, but since they can't fight all-out with them, it's a limiter to an extent. Can they fight at their best with weights on?

Which means what? I've proven that Goku was at full power at a point in the series while doing nothing. That's all that matters. So you can't say it isn't a thing or say "it's a thing of the past." It wouldn't do him any good to do this later in the manga anyway because suppressing is actually a strategic advantage in fights. And seeing as we only see them in fights then their battle powers being less than full makes perfect sense for the rest of the series.

Which means that method is no longer comparable to what's shown later.

The only time I see why they would use this other than not fighting is when they need to restrain to prevent breaking things. Like with the slapping Chi Chi through a wall. Other than that if they're standing about on a planet, like Kaio's, there is no need to restrain yourself.

Why can't Goku casually walk around Kaio's planet without restraining himself? I'm sure Goku's pretty relaxed when he goes to ask Kaio where the new planet Namek is. I don't think being on Kaio's world changes anything.

Even assuming he isn't suppressed there is no reason why Beerus can't determine his battle power with what he is currently sensing. Three characters have already done pretty good estimates of other characters and two of them lacked the ability to sense. And again, disinformation if we aren't given the correct details. It's like the characters saying Kuririn can beat them all in BOG and then we never get anything that disproves that. So we'd have to believe the writers intended use to believe Kuririn was god in BOG.

Ginyu knows Goku decimated the Ginyu Force. He doesn't need to sense to understand he'd have to be a good deal above them to do that. Freeza fought Goku for a good while and knew his reserve power wouldn't have been enough. Freeza still had to fight Goku a good bit to come to that conclusion, though. With how useless Kaioken x10 looked, it's pretty easy to understand why he's that confident. Beers still has little to nothing to go on with Goku.

Exactly my point. I don't need to prove my point because yours isn't shown either. So yeah, your point is moot. You can't say that it your point is above mine unless you can prove it. I am fine with my point being moot because it is just an opinion. You're the one saying it factually works that way. Not me.

Good.

Then by all intensive purposes my point is entirely plausible about them being able to walk around at full power if they can control their power even before they attack.

Ok, cool.

Doesn't mean there isn't another threat on the planet more powerful than him. Enter Ginyu. Enter Freeza. It's best not to show all of your cards. Had Goku not have had the Kaioken then hiding his power is an effective method against a more powerful enemy. Much like how it was very effective for Goku to teleport with his Kamehameha to destroy Cell's body. Because Cell was superior.

I think staying at full-power doing nothing is a waste of energy, which is why I believe Goku was constantly suppressing instead of staying at full-power. It's exerting their powers for essentially no reason at all. The instant Kamehameha was just something Cell wasn't expecting.

Possibly because he raised it before slashing Freeza's men? As I said above unless there is proof that attacks are directly linked to power increase then this is up in the air. Because as far as I'm concerned Vegeta makes it sound like Goku was the one who was increasing his power before he attacks. Not that the attacks themselves were the cause.

Goku's power behind the attack were the reason. It's why Vegeta says Goku's elbow on Reacoom wasn't a normal attack.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that Trunks Ki only went up after he finished the attack?

I think Trunks powered-up as he attacked Freeza's henchmen.

Whether it increased all in one go before attacking them or whether it only increased a bit then increased a lot after the attacking is debatable. There is also the fact that there would be a disconnect if they randomly placed characters sensing Trunks before he attacked. Furthermore, the sensing scene could have happened in conjunction with Trunks attacking. Manga's like any concept of time anyway so it isn't unreasonable that this whole sensing business was happening as the Ki's were getting wiped out. Honestly it would be weird that it took them that long to realise the Ki vanishing anyway.

I believe once they sensed Trunks's huge Chi appear, the others quickly disappeared.

]Missing the point again so I'm not going to bother with this point again. I don't know how I can explain it any better. They'd be at full power end of no power-ups or fighting to reach max.

So can they fight at full-power with weighted clothes?

Because the scouters give omnipotence now? How is Vegeta supposed to determine what was scouted was blasts and not people.

If Vegeta was listening closely to the battle, he would've heard Raditz say their Battle Powers were increasing in a single point. Or he would've heard him read Gohan's Battle Power.

As far as we know the scouters only determine battle powers from sources. They don't provide that much information as far as we've seen. Unless these scouters somehow give full battle readouts explaining in detail what was "over 1,000", like attacks, or not. Which I imagine they wouldn't read anyway, then I don't see why Vegeta's statements even matter.

Vegeta heard Raditz's battle on earth and Zarbon knows that Goku and Gohan's Battle Powers are inferior to Vegeta's. Based on what we know, If Vegeta knows that their Battle Powers exceeded 1,000 at some point during the battle, he would've heard what Raditz had to say on the matter.

So for Raditz quotes he could easily be talking about the amount of power the attacks increased. It doesn't have to suggest that he found their power increasing through attacks odd.[/quote]

Raditz: “He…He can raise his battle power by concentrating it into a single point!!!”

Where specifically in that quote is it focusing on the amount of power? That sounds like he's noting the ability to concentrate it rather than power output. That certainly doesn't sound like a common thing he's seen from other battles.

As for Vegeta his scouter went off before Gohan even initiated an attack. So it could be in regard to his power increase before the subsequent attack.

But Vegeta doesn't say it until after he gathers power for the Masenko.

Yet Dabra determined their energy was marvellous despite them being surpressed? Yet Beerus can't determine Goku's level in a "relaxed state" as you say? Okay then.

Well, their methods are different.

He knows about Freeza, he knows Goku beat him. He knew of Goku and his strength. I don't see how he wouldn't know they could go SSJ's.

He only heard stories. That doesn't mean he knows everything about them.

They knew Gohan could go SSJ.

Because he turned Super Saiyan while Videl was getting pummeled.

The Kaioshin should not be surprised that Vegeta could destroy Pui-Pui considering Gohan went SSJ and SSJ2.

What does Gohan's ability to transform have to do with Vegeta? He knew the Saiyans were making a game out of it and fighting alone. Kaioshin didn't want Vegeta to give any unnecessary energy to Boo, which is why he was cautious about Vegeta. His reaction alone is enough to show he had no clue how strong Vegeta was.

Yet the Kaioshin thought it would be necessary for Vegeta to not fight by himself. Unless Gohan supressed to base level as a SSJ and SSJ2 then it makes no sense. The Kaioshin is just terrible at sensing and we should leave it at that.

Gohan has nothing to do with Vegeta fighting alone. His power is totally seperate from Vegeta. If he knows the Saiyans decided that fighting alone is more fun, he's expecting Vegeta to fight Pui-Pui without help.

Honestly it just feels like these characters just have good reputations that scare the Kaioshin. Because the Kaioshin thought Pui-Pui would be too tough for the Saiyan's individually too. Yet Vegeta quickly puts him away.

I don't think Kaioshin knows anything about Pui-Pui, other than him being one of Bobbidi's henchmen. We do know Kaioshin felt as though he needed the Z-Warriors help against Bobbidi, though. This was well before he knew Bobbidi had recruited the likes of Dabra and Yakon.

I say Goku would probably do better than him because the Kaioshin can't sense for ass. And he doesn't have a martial artists sense either because Goku can also use his environment to detect movement as well according to what he said against Yakon.

Can't disagree with that.

[Tectorman]

At the beginning of Captain America: Winter Soldier, Steve Rogers is shown jogging with Sam Wilson. "Jogging with" here having the meaning of "lapping poor Falcon by an embarrassing amount". But Captain America cannot lift an infinite amount, so we can safely assume that at some level of encumbrance, Steve will be slowed to a pace equal to Sam Wilson. Maybe it's 500 lbs, maybe it's 700 lbs, but that amount of weight, whatever amount it is, does exist.

But does Steve need a large amount of weight to hamper himself down to Sam's pace? Or can he slow down voluntarily?

I think SSTurlast4 is assuming a causal link regarding the weighted training clothes that isn't there. Goku wearing weights will result in a lower power level, just like heavy weights will slow Steve's jogging pace. But neither of these characters need those mechanical implements to induce those effects. They're simply naturally occurring side effects of using heavy weights.

It's like firing a gun. You will get recoil, but you don't need a gun to simulate a recoil-like action with your hand. And despite you being able to simulate a recoil-like action with your hand, using a real gun will still force you to experience a recoil.

Goku can suppress his power at will. But wearing weighted training clothes will lower his power level, never mind his intentions. But just because those clothes will suppress his power level doesn't mean he can't do so on his own.

[FortuneSSJ]

I didn't like that comment from Beerus either.
Makes Feeza seem less weak, but at the same time makes Goku pathetic.

Goku improved a lot since Freeza saga. I don't need numbers, just makes sense to me that after all those years of improvement: Base Goku > Freeza.
In GT, Base Goku vs Freeza and Cell made perfect sense o me. Its like I pictured in my mind. They weren't a challenge anymore.

[rereboy]

I didn't like that comment from Beerus either.
Makes Feeza seem less weak, but at the same time makes Goku pathetic.

Goku improved a lot since Freeza saga. I don't need numbers, just makes sense to me that after all those years of improvement: Base Goku > Freeza.
In GT, Base Goku vs Freeza and Cell made perfect sense o me. Its like I pictured in my mind. They weren't a challenge anymore.

I don't agree with this sentiment. SSJ is 50 times the base power. That's a lot. If Goku surpassed Freeza in his base form, just his regular SSJ would be more than 50 times stronger than Freeza. And then he would have SSJ2 and SSJ3... Its way more than its necessary, imo. Not to mention that Goku still considers the ability to defeat Freeza in one blow a big deal in the Buu saga when Kaioshin mentions it to them.

[Tectorman]

In GT, Base Goku vs Freeza and Cell made perfect sense o me. Its like I pictured in my mind. They weren't a challenge anymore.

The GT example doesn't even matter.

If we're talking about GT, then we're talking about the anime. And the anime includes a scene where we see Cell getting his butt handed to him by weight-encumbered Pikkon. And there's another scene where we see Goku in Base able to contend with that same weight-encumbered Pikkon.

So either Goku got over a hundred times stronger just by dying (which makes no sense; why didn't that happen the first time?),

Or Cell got a massive debuff. This explanation actually makes sense because in the Dragonball afterlife, evil people are cleansed of their memories and then reincarnated. There's plenty of reason to assume that a sufficiently powerful dead person (such as Cell) would be able to hold on to their memories and body, at the cost of being subject to the rules of the afterlife (in this case, losing power).

And if Cell got debuffed by dying, we can assume the same happened to Frieza*. So forget GT, Goku could already take on Cell and Frieza in Base by the Otherworld Tournament Saga.

*And no, that doesn't refute Beers's claim, either. He wasn't referring to post-dead-and-in-the-afterlife Frieza when he said that.

[freezamite]

I didn't like that comment from Beerus either.
Makes Feeza seem less weak, but at the same time makes Goku pathetic.

Goku improved a lot since Freeza saga. I don't need numbers, just makes sense to me that after all those years of improvement: Base Goku > Freeza.
In GT, Base Goku vs Freeza and Cell made perfect sense o me. Its like I pictured in my mind. They weren't a challenge anymore.

the base state has a limit that can't be surpassed, and that limit has to be reached in order to become a SSJ (except for the ones that can turn SSJ without training, like Goten or Trunks).
By the way, Freezer was in the Top 5 of DB villains in terms of strength:
Bu > Perfect Cell = Majin Dabra = Freezer (pure strength, in an actual fight both Perfect Cell and Majin Dabra would have been above Freezer) > rest of enemies.

That's not making Goku seem weak by any means considering we're speaking of Goku's weakest form...

[Diotor]

I didn't like that comment from Beerus either.
Makes Feeza seem less weak, but at the same time makes Goku pathetic.

Goku improved a lot since Freeza saga. I don't need numbers, just makes sense to me that after all those years of improvement: Base Goku > Freeza.
In GT, Base Goku vs Freeza and Cell made perfect sense o me. Its like I pictured in my mind. They weren't a challenge anymore.

the base state has a limit that can't be surpassed, and that limit has to be reached in order to become a SSJ (except for the ones that can turn SSJ without training, like Goten or Trunks).
By the way, Freezer was in the Top 5 of DB villains in terms of strength:
Bu > Perfect Cell = Majin Dabra = Freezer (pure strength, in an actual fight both Perfect Cell and Majin Dabra would have been above Freezer) > rest of enemies.

That's not making Goku seem weak by any means considering we're speaking of Goku's weakest form...

Frieza would also drop below Vegeta during the Buu arc as well. He's miles below Majin Vegeta. I'd possibly even say Yakon might be too much for Frieza to handle, but that would be close.