Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection 'F'"

[UpFromTheSkies]

Toriyama's never taken the manga seriously. That doesn't mean the manga itself has never taken itself seriously. He treats it as this silly little story he came up with but it doesn't have the same meaning to him as it does to many of it's fans. But that's really just his work ethic/personal opinions. It doesn't really necessarily reflect on the story itself. When he wrote it he wrote it to be taken seriously at times... even if he didn't care particularly one way or the other.

The writer of a story determines its intent, not the readers.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

But I just noticed Dabura was mentioned as being sent to heaven as punishment. Are we sure the same wasn't done for Freeza?

Almost certain the picture with him and the angels says Hell (地獄, "Jigoku").

[EmmaWinters]

But I just noticed Dabura was mentioned as being sent to heaven as punishment. Are we sure the same wasn't done for Freeza?

Almost certain the picture with him and the angels says Hell (地獄, "Jigoku").

Correct. It's without a doubt Hell.

I'm pretty sure scans of the entire chapter are floating around online. I really like his art.

That's what I'm trying to find! No luck so far.

[ACCloud]

Actually I don't think I've seen this brought up before, but what about when Raditz died? In the manga, Goku asks Enma Daioh about Raditz. This is what they say in the Viz translation:

Goku - "Didn't he fight it?"
Enma - "Indeed he did. But none defeat me."
Goku - "Beating that guy...now that's awesome!"

This implies that Raditz still had his body at the check-in station, and actually tried to attack Enma. At least, that's how I always took it (I never thought about the fact that he should have been a cloud). I'm not sure what that means for Freeza in the cocoon, but it's a possible example of a villain keeping their physical form in the afterlife.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Or, in the true ridiculous humor of Toriyama, Enma Daio could have been fighting cloud!Raditz.

[EmmaWinters]

Actually I don't think I've seen this brought up before, but what about when Raditz died?

The implication is even clearer in the original Japanese, so it's not a translation issue on Viz's part. In the same scene, there's even a dog-man with a body waiting in line, despite everyone else in line being shown as a cloud. It's been both ways.

[bleed0range]

Toriyama's never taken the manga seriously. That doesn't mean the manga itself has never taken itself seriously. He treats it as this silly little story he came up with but it doesn't have the same meaning to him as it does to many of it's fans. But that's really just his work ethic/personal opinions. It doesn't really necessarily reflect on the story itself. When he wrote it he wrote it to be taken seriously at times... even if he didn't care particularly one way or the other.

The writer of a story determines its intent, not the readers.

Correct. Which is what I said. Toriyama wrote the story to have it's serious moments along with it's silly ones. Whether or not he personally takes it seriously is his own opinion. The story and his opinion of the story are two different things. He may not take it at all seriously, but he certainly did give it some dramatic tones from time to time. You CAN take it seriously. Those touching moments are as real as the silly gag ones.

[lord turbo]

Well, I am not blissfully ignoring anything. There's nothing that can be done about it. It is what it is.

When I say blissfully ignore, I mean ignoring what makes it illogical to begin with and going "It is what it is" as if that make the plot hole somehow better. Like I said, i don't even care anymore that conversation has grown tiresome real fast. I will let you and anyone else believe whatever they want to believe.

Well, that's really debatable isn't it? Dragon Ball, at times, takes itself pretty seriously too. I didn't think it was all gags and fun when Gohan turned SSJ2 after 16's head was crushed into a pile of bolts, flesh and et cetera.

I think I may be able to explain, DB did in fact have looney tune like gag humor in the first few arcs, this stopped entirely and started shifting into the more traditionally known mature/serious/drama style DB during the 22nd Budokai which is why I call it the transitional arc as it lead directly into the Piccolo Daimao arc as if its preparing for the sudden shift and change in tone the series would use from that point onward. Think about it, compare the 22nd Budokai arc to the 21st Budokai arc, as different as night and day in tone isn't it? Same series, different setting and tone. Its not impossible for a series to start off all gaggish goofy in the start then suddenly serious the F up in proceeding arcs in a way that the early arcs aren't compatible with the newer tone.

DB kept that tone from the 22nd Budokai all the way to the end of the series and no some humor here and there doesn't not change the constant mature/serious/drama tone DB had going on. If I had to use numbers Early DB pre-22nd Budokai arc was 8 out of 10 gag nature with 2 out of 10 serious/mature/drama added to it. 22nd Budokai felt like 6 out of 10 mature/serious/drama and 4 out of 10 gag nature to it. and then Piccolo Daimao to the end of the series it generally had an 8 out of 10 drama/mature/serious nature and 2 out of 10 gag nature. That's the best way I can describe it, even the light heart stuff like Tarble Special wasn't a full on return to 8/10 gag nature, even BoGs wasn't a full on return to thee 8/10 gag nature that early DB had and someone is in serious denial if they think so. RoF seems like it will be the 8/10 serious/drama part, at worsat 6/10, not a full on return to classic early DB.

It's entirely possible that he was given a body later as part of his torture, and I'd be entirely fine with that. It just needs to be addressed in the film if that is the case and not just something we have to wildly assume for ourselves. During his training or while explaining what happened to the heroes (he's going to, you know that), have Freeza complain about them giving him his body back once he got to hell only to humiliate him or whatever and it's covered.

Some may not like the statement, but it's no longer in inconsistency that way at least.

I don't mind statements like that, its at least addressing why Freeza has a body rather than ignoring it outright with no explanation and that's all we need, one piece of dialogue and we are golden.

Actually I don't think I've seen this brought up before, but what about when Raditz died?

The implication is even clearer in the original Japanese, so it's not a translation issue on Viz's part. In the same scene, there's even a dog-man with a body waiting in line, despite everyone else in line being shown as a cloud. It's been both ways.

Also, this could be before Toriyama came up with the idea to establish the nobody rule which explains the Radiz comment at the time. The scene makes little sense as Enma is bragging about beating Raditz like it was nothing with Goku being astounded by it with Enma grinning in approval with Kami hushing Goku to note that may be so but North Kaio is even greater than Enma. The scene loses it impact if its actually cloud Raditz he fought as even Goku could do that at the time.

[EmmaWinters]

Also, this could be before Toriyama came up with the idea to establish the nobody rule

That was my point. We've had it both ways, and now we're (sorta?) back to the "original" way.

If you want to explain it away in-universe, you might be able to claim that souls queue up without a body, but somehow get one when they're presented for judgement. The only problem with this is that you have Enma's comments to Vegeta near the end of the manga.

[Herms]

Like I said, i don't even care anymore that conversation has grown tiresome real fast. I will let you and anyone else believe whatever they want to believe.

My advice to you for the future is, if you ever start out a post like this, just stop writing right there and walk away. If you don't care about a conversation, don't participate in that conversation. Nobody wants to read a post from you explaining about how you don't care what they think or what they have to say, and I can't imagine you get much personal satisfaction out of writing a post like that. Much better for everyone if you just don't bother.

[Bullza]

Aw I wanted someone to see what anyone had to say about my theory to see if they thought the same or if it was possible but it was completely ignored.

[ScholarGohan]

http://eiga.com/news/20150221/13/

[EmmaWinters]

http://eiga.com/news/20150221/13/

"Breaking: Masako Nozawa hates Ryūsei Nakao"
-Youtube

[Herms]

http://eiga.com/news/20150221/13/

"Breaking: Masako Nozawa hates Ryūsei Nakao"
-Youtube

Well, she hates Freeza at any rate. Nozawa and Nakao were at a panel in Shibuya on the 21st to promote the new movie and also the BoG special edition DVD and Blu-ray, and her hatred of Freeza came up. Freeza is Nozawa's standard answer when asked which DB character she hates most of all, but in a "love to hate" sort of way. Nakao likewise said he's never had another roll as hated as Freeza, and apparently Freeza's going to be even more detestable in the new movie, amazingly enough. Nozawa even shouted that she hated him during a recording session. Risa Yoshiki was also at the panel dressed like Bulma, and chewed out Freeza/Nakao (yelling at men is apparently her party piece).

[lord turbo]

Like I said, i don't even care anymore that conversation has grown tiresome real fast. I will let you and anyone else believe whatever they want to believe.

My advice to you for the future is, if you ever start out a post like this, just stop writing right there and walk away. If you don't care about a conversation, don't participate in that conversation. Nobody wants to read a post from you explaining about how you don't care what they think or what they have to say, and I can't imagine you get much personal satisfaction out of writing a post like that. Much better for everyone if you just don't bother.

Allow me to clear the air, I didn't mean that as in anyway to be disrespectful or dismissive of people's opinions, I just meant I've literally lost interest in that particular discussion as it went literally no where in circles for pages no matter the arguments brought forward hence why I said I'm done because people are going to believe whatever they want. I don't see any point in cluttering the topic with back and forth exchange that solves nothing and I think posters were definitely growing weary of that particular discussion so I didn't want to beat a dead horse basically. I apologize if I came off offensive or rude in anyway, was not my intention.

[ScholarGohan]

http://ameblo.jp/dragonball2015/entry-11992725795.html

[sintzu]

I'm afraid that in this movie they will make Goku and Vegeta to be stronger than Gohan who was thought to be the strongest in Earth in EoZ

They already had both of them put him to shame in the last movie and at the EOZ there's nothing that says he was the strongest which thanks to these movies we know he wasn't.

[dbzfan7]

I'm afraid that in this movie they will make Goku and Vegeta to be stronger than Gohan who was thought to be the strongest in Earth in EoZ

Well Goku already was since the past movie. If it makes you feel better, they both need happy fun time circles that include Gohans power to be stronger than him, and they steal Gohan's gimmicks as well to try and make themselves cooler too.

[shinmaru]

quote="Kakarot9001"]This movie was only a sucess for those who really don't care for the series or just started watching in the past 5 years.

I disagree with you, I'm old fan and I love the Movie. And I love all this upset about this movie. DragonBall is alive again hahaha

[Gyt Kaliba]

It's a little bit off topic, but on the notion of comparing Toriyama to George Lucas that came up, I'd have to agree. What I'm agreeing on however is that, like Lucas, Toriyama is starting to be treated a little too unfairly by a lot of his fanbase, at least IMO.

Neither Dragon Ball nor Star Wars are meant to be taken nearly as seriously as a lot of people seem to (though Star Wars, narratively speaking, does take a slightly more serious outlook on things than DB does). Hell, most fiction isn't meant to be taken nearly as seriously as a lot of people do. Unless the fiction is made with the purpose of sending a particular message throughout it's entirety, and even then this usually still holds true, a story is made for the purpose of entertainment, for having fun. That's it. Dragon Ball, Star Wars, Star Trek, Harry Potter, DC and Marvel comic books - they're all made first and foremost to be enjoyed.

Now I'm not saying scrutinizing things isn't fair game, nor are the authors allowed to get off scot-free without being criticized if they do something people aren't big on. I have serious misgivings with both of TMNT's co-creators when they work alone rather than together, and I seriously wonder how Lois Lowry could approve of some of the changes that (from what I can tell without having actually seen it yet) have been made to the film version of 'The Giver'. But to take it to a level where you constantly disparage the original creator, saying 'man they suck nowadays, they should just stop and let other people take care of their creation', or 'they really shouldn't be allowed to write things anymore without someone holding their hand or at least watching over their shoulder', or so on? That, to me, seems to be flying in the face of the truth that, without those original authors, you wouldn't have the material that you do like anymore either. So if they still feel like they have stories to tell, and other affiliated parties agree and decide to produce said new material, then they should be allowed to put out this new material. And while it's definitely fair game for people to like or dislike said material, I don't really think it's right for there to be so much vitriol thrown the author's way either. Just an iota more respect shown to the people who gave you material that you love, that you've made it a point to come to a community dedicated to one of those works, is all I would ask, personally.

Case in point, Lucas didn't "kill" Star Wars by introducing the prequel trilogy, and Toriyama's not "killing" Dragon Ball by bringing Freeza back. At all.