What if Kid Buu had won the final battle (consequences?)

[foxfang4]

#1. Where was this implied, let alone confirmed? IIRC, Vegeta actually underestimates Kid Buu, believing he had grown weaker.
Answer: That was before he got a chance to fight him. During the fight, they both realize that Kid Buu is outrageously powerful. Way more than they had imagined he would be (they mention that many times). It's clear in the dialogue and also in the way the fight plays out.

We have a statement from Goku saying that at his full power he could kill Pure Boo(Kid Boo). And nothing ever disagrees with this statement. Vegeta even tells Goku to go all out and finish it but Goku tells us that he's been trying but he hasn't had a chance to get to full power.

#2. idk. Kid Buu beat the crap out of Fat Buu to the point where he couldn't fight anymore. And Gohan was doing the same to Super Buu.
Answer: In the Japanese version (only, I'm baffled as to why the English version changes the dialogue), Piccolo explains that basically 100% of Fat Buu's "ferocious ki" (IE: power) was transferred over to the "Negative/Thin Buu". So Fat Buu is a shell of his former self from this point on in the series. He can't even regenerate at the rate of Super Buu (+ the other versions of him).

Vegeta says in the Japanese version of the manga that if it's Boo versus Boo they can take damage.

#3. Didn't Toriyama say Gohan was the strongest unfused fighter in DBZ at that point? Besides, even if it's not mentioned in the manga, you can pretty much see it for yourself when you compare fights. Goku implies Gotenks is stronger or more adept than him as a SSJ3.
Answer: I'm pretty sure that Goku saying that was only in the English dub. In the Japanese dub, he's basically surprised at how strong Gotenks is. But never says "He's more powerful than me."
In fact, Goku saying he 100% thought he could beat Fat Buu (at his strongest) implies he was at least as capable as Gotenks. His performance shows he's way more capable than him.

Goku says that Gotenks would be able to beat Fat Boo. As far as we're aware Goku intended for them to fight as a SSJ fusion against Fat Boo. The fact that Goku thinks that SSJ Gotenks can handle Fat Boo, even if you assume SSJ Gotenks is weaker than SSJ3 Goku, would still put SSJ3 Gotenks above SSJ3 Goku. Because the pecking order would be:

-Unfused SSJ's.
-Unfused SSJ2's.
-Fat Boo.
-SSJ Gotenks.
-SSJ3 Goku.
-SSJ3 Gotenks.

The only way for Goku to be above SSJ3 Gotenks would be if Goku could handle Fat Boo as a SSJ. Because as far as we're aware the fusions get the same SSJ multipliers as unfused Saiyan's. Unless we're told differently then it can only be a baseless opinion. I mean even if we assume SSJ Gotenks couldn't handle Fat Boo, which is unlikely because the manga never suggests so when he fuses as a SSJ, the bare minimum Gotenks would need to be for Piccolo to be okay with sending him to battle Fat Boo is SSJ2 Vegeta-level which. As Goku said, is on par with his SSJ2 self. Going by that and the SSJ multipliers SSJ3 Gotenks would be twice as strong as SSJ3 Goku.

#4. Gotenks fights evenly with Super Buu. Gohan wrecks Super Buu in a one-sided showdown. Goku actually has a slight upper hand against Kid Buu, but holds back, making them on par with one another until Goku's stamina gives in.
Answer: You're right. Gotenks fights evenly with Super Buu. But Super Buu (in the Japanese version) admits to Gohan that he was basically playing with Gotenks and not killing him because he wanted to absorb him later. I'm 90% sure the English version doesn't say this (again, strange writing decision). True, Gohan wrecks Super Buu. But, Kid Buu is much more powerful than Super Buu. In the English version they sort of downplay that for some reason. And Goku doesn't really go toe to toe with Kid Buu. Sure, he lands a few punches, but Kid Buu basically toys with Goku the entire fight. Like, I had never noticed how much until I recently saw it. Goku's desperation Kamehameha (which takes place almost immediately once the fight starts) is the moment where Goku realizes Buu is out of his league.

Evil Boo(Super Boo) was about to be obliterated before the fusion wore off. Do you actually read Japanese? Because I don't think Evil Boo says that he wasn't trying against Gotenks. All we know him saying is that he couldn't allow Gohan, who was more powerful than him, to exist. He could have easily left the kids alive after the fusion wore off for them to fuse and for him to absorb them. Piccolo even says that Evil Boo's pride has been damaged because there is someone on par with his power in the Japanese manga.

#5. Didn't Toriyama say Gohan was the strongest unfused fighter in DBZ at that point?
Yeah, I remember reading that in some translated interview a long time ago. But, I'm just basing it on the actual source material. I think that idea was quickly abandoned after Gohan was absorbed. It's a bit strange (and I'm not putting much weight into this) to mention "Battle of Gods" with something that was written in the mid 1990s. But, in that film, 'Ultimate Gohan' is shown to be weaker than Goku SSJ3 and Vegeta SSJ2. He gets beaten in under 2 seconds. At least Goku lasted 1 minute. Like I said, I'm not putting much weight into "Battle of Gods", but it's the only canon material we have that allows us to see how strong Gohan really is in that state.

I don't think it's fair to put Goku above Gohan merely because he lasted longer. Because Goku only lasted as long as he did due to Beerus not going on the offensive. Considering how powerful Beerus is we can't gauge how much he suppressed against Goku compared to Gohan either. I'm not saying Goku couldn't be stronger than Gohan by this time. But I don't think it's as easy as "Goku lasted longer so he must be stronger."

Great stuff. Thanks for this.

I still have some doubts on what the show/manga established. Maybe you or someone else can lend their opinions.

#1. Goku says that Gotenks would be able to beat Fat Boo. As far as we're aware Goku intended for them to fight as a SSJ fusion against Fat Boo. The fact that Goku thinks that SSJ Gotenks can handle Fat Boo, even if you assume SSJ Gotenks is weaker than SSJ3 Goku, would still put SSJ3 Gotenks above SSJ3 Goku.
- Every time I've seen this part, my immediate thought was : "Wow. Goku really underestimated Buu." I just never took what he said at full value. I figure it was a guess at best. You see, Goku thought that Regular SSJ Gotenks could take care of FAT BUU (not Super Buu, who is much stronger). But, watching the fight, (even ignoring the fact that Gotenks is not fighting as he should), it seems clear that SSJ Gotenks is, at best, only capable of injuring Buu but not destroying him. He's a little more dominant as a SSJ3, but the fight is still pretty much even. Gotenks' SSJ3, like you said, is state to be basically on par or a little stronger than Super Buu.

#2. I don't think Evil Boo says that he wasn't trying against Gotenks. All we know him saying is that he couldn't allow Gohan, who was more powerful than him, to exist. He could have easily left the kids alive after the fusion wore off for them to fuse and for him to absorb them. Piccolo even says that Evil Boo's pride has been damaged because there is someone on par with his power in the Japanese manga.
- Yeah, I checked it. You're right. Buu just says he wanted to absorb Gotenks at the time, but figured he should wait an hour to make the fusion last its full duration. But yeah, like you said, they seem to establish that Gotenks SSJ3 is at little stronger then Super Buu. Gohan was even content with letting Gotenks fight Buu (right before Gotenks got absorbed), once Gohan saw what Gotenks' level was.

#3. I don't think it's fair to put Goku above Gohan merely because he lasted longer. Because Goku only lasted as long as he did due to Beerus not going on the offensive. Considering how powerful Beerus is we can't gauge how much he suppressed against Goku compared to Gohan either. I'm not saying Goku couldn't be stronger than Gohan by this time. But I don't think it's as easy as "Goku lasted longer so he must be stronger."
- I agree. I mean, Piccolo also lasted 1 hit. So did Gotenks. So it really doesn't mean much. Beerus seemed to be able to beat anyone with 1 hit (except Vegeta). Still, Gohan never really comes off as being on a completely different level to SSJ3 Goku.

IMO, the only way that the ending of the Kid Buu fight makes any sense is for Gohan to be (at least) on par or just weaker than SSJ3 Goku. That's the only way. Or else, Toriyama is literally just hoping we ignore the "automatic win" button that was introduced to us a few chapters earlier in the manga.

[foxfang4]

1 more thing. Once I read an interesting idea about why Kid Buu was so dangerous. To sum up, his tendency to make the planet he's on explode (either when he's threatened or completely at random) makes him nearly impossible to defeat. So, some fans have speculated that Kid Buu could only have been killed on the Kaioshin planet.

Kid Buu would have most likely blown up whatever world Gohan was on the second he saw how strong Gohan was.

[Hitiro]

#1. Goku says that Gotenks would be able to beat Fat Boo. As far as we're aware Goku intended for them to fight as a SSJ fusion against Fat Boo. The fact that Goku thinks that SSJ Gotenks can handle Fat Boo, even if you assume SSJ Gotenks is weaker than SSJ3 Goku, would still put SSJ3 Gotenks above SSJ3 Goku.
- Every time I've seen this part, my immediate thought was : "Wow. Goku really underestimated Buu." I just never took what he said at full value. I figure it was a guess at best. You see, Goku thought that Regular SSJ Gotenks could take care of FAT BUU (not Super Buu, who is much stronger). But, watching the fight, (even ignoring the fact that Gotenks is not fighting as he should), it seems clear that SSJ Gotenks is, at best, only capable of injuring Buu but not destroying him. He's a little more dominant as a SSJ3, but the fight is still pretty much even. Gotenks' SSJ3, like you said, is state to be basically on par or a little stronger than Super Buu.

But then you can easily just assume that SSJ3 Goku couldn't beat Fat Boo if he was underestimating Boo too. Like I said, even if you assume SSJ Gotenks is weaker then SSJ3 Goku, Piccolo isn't going to send SSJ Gotenks off to fight Fat Boo if he is below SSJ2 Vegeta who was on par with SSJ2 Goku. So with that simple fact SSJ3 Gotenks would have to be higher than SSJ3 Goku. I mean if we want to break it down in numbers and assume that Gotenks is on par with the SSJ2 adults then:

Vegeta: 1
Goku: 1
Gotenks: 2

SSJ Vegeta: 1 * 50 = 50
SSJ Goku: 1 * 50 = 50

SSJ2 Vegeta: 1 * 100 = 100
SSJ2 Goku: 1 * 100 = 100
SSJ Gotenks: 2 * 50 = 100

Fat Boo: 200

SSJ3 Goku: 1 * 400 = 400
SSJ3 Gotenks: 2 * 400 = 800

#3. I don't think it's fair to put Goku above Gohan merely because he lasted longer. Because Goku only lasted as long as he did due to Beerus not going on the offensive. Considering how powerful Beerus is we can't gauge how much he suppressed against Goku compared to Gohan either. I'm not saying Goku couldn't be stronger than Gohan by this time. But I don't think it's as easy as "Goku lasted longer so he must be stronger."
- I agree. I mean, Piccolo also lasted 1 hit. So did Gotenks. So it really doesn't mean much. Beerus seemed to be able to beat anyone with 1 hit (except Vegeta). Still, Gohan never really comes off as being on a completely different level to SSJ3 Goku.

Well, if you're up against an opponent that's 1000x stronger than you then 2 characters with varying strength isn't going to be noticeable. But Gohan did manage to grab him at least. That is more than what Goku managed to do as a SSJ3 while swinging punches at him.

IMO, the only way that the ending of the Kid Buu fight makes any sense is for Gohan to be (at least) on par or just weaker than SSJ3 Goku. That's the only way. Or else, Toriyama is literally just hoping we ignore the "automatic win" button that was introduced to us a few chapters earlier in the manga.

If you put Gohan on par with Goku then it doesn't really make sense at all. Because then you have to justify why Goku said that they'd be slaughtered if they went outside of Evil Boo(Super Boo). You have to justify why SSJ Gotenks is stronger or at least on par with SSJ2's yet his SSJ3 form is weaker than SSJ3 Goku. You also have to justify why if Pure Boo(Kid Boo) is stronger or on par with Gohan, who is stronger than Evil Boo(Super Boo), why Goku would be okay fighting an opponent stronger than someone he'd admitted to slaughtering him and Vegeta. Obviously we have to ignore the "automatic win" button here because Vegeta said that they should let the Earthlings save themselves for a change when Vegeta said no to bringing Gohan or Goten and Trunks to fight Pure Boo. The fact that Goku thinks that was Vegeta's plan originally pretty much speaks volumes about how strong Gohan and Gotenks are.

[Rocketman]

The Kid Buu fight doesn't make sense, hope this helps. It's a cobbled-together piece of shit to give Goku the finishing blow and tack a feel-good nostalgic ending to the series.

I mean, even if you think Gohan is weaker than Goku for some reason...there's still Fusion. Why didn't Goku and Vegeta use the fusion dance while Fat Buu bought them time? Vegeta knows the dance, he said so earlier. Goku gives up on his "~fight alone for honor~" shit after realising he's in over his head, and the new Vegeta who's willing to gamble on ~the people of earth~ shouldn't have any objection to it.

[Dyno]

Why didn't Goku and Vegeta use the fusion dance while Fat Buu bought them time? Vegeta knows the dance, he said so earlier.

I remember Kakarot said that Buu was not fused with anyone, so that is why he refused to do the fusion too. But I might be wrong, though.

[Rocketman]

I remember Kakarot said that Buu was not fused with anyone, so that is why he refused to do the fusion too. But I might be wrong, though.

He drops that idea after realizing Buu is kicking his ass, though. He even goes "shit, we shouldn't have broken the potara".

[Saiga]

Vegetto beat Gohan-Buu so badly his regeneration was failing.

That sums up the backwards ass, inconsistent, fucked up logic of the Majin Boo arc.

How? Pure Boo does the same thing to Fat Boo, abd Gotenks nearly manages the same with Evil Boo.

It seems to be pretty damn consistent: you can still overpower the Boos, even with pure melee.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Gohan as well. He never used any Chi-attacks against Super Boo. Imagine if Gohan kept beating on him.

[mAcChaos]

I always thought the "Buu no longer regenerating" thing was related to ki.

When Perfect Cell regenerated, they felt that his ki drop a bit. So regenerating probably takes up their ki, and if you beat them up enough they just don't have enough to regenerate with anymore.

[singsing]

I always thought the "Buu no longer regenerating" thing was related to ki.

When Perfect Cell regenerated, they felt that his ki drop a bit. So regenerating probably takes up their ki, and if you beat them up enough they just don't have enough to regenerate with anymore.

Which is weird because he's supposed to have infinite stamina. Oh well, wadaya gonna do?

[foxfang4]

If you put Gohan on par with Goku then it doesn't really make sense at all. Because then you have to justify why Goku said that they'd be slaughtered if they went outside of Evil Boo(Super Boo). You have to justify why SSJ Gotenks is stronger or at least on par with SSJ2's yet his SSJ3 form is weaker than SSJ3 Goku. You also have to justify why if Pure Boo(Kid Boo) is stronger or on par with Gohan, who is stronger than Evil Boo(Super Boo), why Goku would be okay fighting an opponent stronger than someone he'd admitted to slaughtering him and Vegeta. Obviously we have to ignore the "automatic win" button here because Vegeta said that they should let the Earthlings save themselves for a change when Vegeta said no to bringing Gohan or Goten and Trunks to fight Pure Boo. The fact that Goku thinks that was Vegeta's plan originally pretty much speaks volumes about how strong Gohan and Gotenks are.

Yeah I kind of remember Goku saying that they'd get slaughtered after they left Buu's stomach. Do you remember what scene that happened in?

[mAcChaos]

I always thought the "Buu no longer regenerating" thing was related to ki.

When Perfect Cell regenerated, they felt that his ki drop a bit. So regenerating probably takes up their ki, and if you beat them up enough they just don't have enough to regenerate with anymore.

Which is weird because he's supposed to have infinite stamina. Oh well, wadaya gonna do?

Where does it ever say that?

Infinite stamina doesn't necessarily have to mean infinite ki.

I could also see him regaining all of his ki only after a very short rest.

[AvatarReiko]

While we are on the topic, I was hoping one of you could help me understand this since you seem more versed on the subject than I am. Its regarding Goku's claim that he could beat beat Kid Buu.

Both Goku and Vegeta agree that he could wipe Buu out if he gathered his Ki to full power

Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”

However, Goku says here that ge is going to go all out on Buu from the start, with 100% power.

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6
Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo
Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”

Here, Goku acknowledges that if he messes around, the universe will be done for. So if he was at full power at the start of the fight, and had the power to finish Buu, why didn't he do it?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Goku didn't have a chance to generate a powerful enough attack wipe him out.

Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”

Where does it ever say that?

Goku: “…Dammit…! Like I thought, even if I keep doing the same thing, that bastard’s stamina doesn’t fall…! He just returns to being good as new right away…”

[AvatarReiko]

Goku didn't have a chance to generate a powerful enough attack wipe him out.

Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”

Where does it ever say that?

Goku: “…Dammit…! Like I thought, even if I keep doing the same thing, that bastard’s stamina doesn’t fall…! He just returns to being good as new right away…”

But Gohan was able to unleash a fully charged Kamehameha with Cell. In fact, a couple of pages prior, we see Goku unleash a Kamehameha. Alternatively, he could have IT'd away, charged his attack and then fire it at Buu.

[Doctor.]

It really depends on which part of the fight does Boo win. If he wins prior to Porunga reviving everyone, then he blows up the Kaioshin planet and goes on to cause havoc throughout the universe for a few years until Beerus wakes up and vaporizes him for some reason. If he wins after Porunga revives everyone, it's possible that the Kaioshin teleports Gohan to the planet before Kid Boo blows it up, and Gohan proceeds to kill him.

[foxfang4]

Another hilarious plot hole in this fight is when the Supreme Kai says he's too tired to teleport to the Goku/Buu fight. But, literally 1 minute into the next episode, he teleports like it's nothing.

[dbgtFO]

Dende could just have healed him(and Dende could also have healed him instead of making the wish to Porunga, but that would probably take too long).

[DBZAOTA482]

Another hilarious plot hole in this fight is when the Supreme Kai says he's too tired to teleport to the Goku/Buu fight. But, literally 1 minute into the next episode, he teleports like it's nothing.

Kibitoshin has Kaioshits in him. No surprise he's a whiner.

[foxfang4]

Dende could just have healed him(and Dende could also have healed him instead of making the wish to Porunga, but that would probably take too long).

True. I always just assumed Dende was too tired at that moment to heal him too.

Although, to play devil's advocate: the Supreme Kai did say that he couldn't teleport "at that time" until he had recovered his strength. In the next episode, they show Goku sitting on a rock with the implication that some time had passed (could have been 10-20 minutes) after Buu died. So, in a way, Dende could have also recovered, which........you know what I'll just turn my brain off when watching this arc in the future.