The strongest earthling

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm just saying that any "feats" portrayed in the manga are overruled by direct statements that flat-out tell us the opposite.

There's nothing in the manga that says or shows anything that contradicts the statement.

Which is why I put "feats" in quotations. Read it as "alleged feats" if that puts the point across better.

[rereboy]

If my point was, as you say, pointless, then you continuing to address said point is also pointless.

As it stands, I pointed out something that was not explicitly stated in his post. If you disagree with my content, then say so. If not, then I'm not sure what you are complaining about, since the end result is me reinforcing what was already said, and you making a deal out of....what, exactly?

He stated a point, fully admitting and never questioning the validity of the statement. And he did explicitly admitted it by saying: "So basically, yeah, Krillin is the strongest since it's officially confirmed. We can't argue against the word of the creator." That's, word for word, what he said, explicitly admitting it. (EDIT: actually, this last part was the post of another user, I misread right now. The user in question wasn't as explicit as this , what he stated was that he "didn't have the statements", so you have a point about him not being very explicit, but his point is still clear).

However, your reply to that point was just that the statement overuled everything else.

Thus, in your reply, you didn't actually refer to his point at all and just repeated something that he had already admitted and that was beside his point. Your contribution was, therefore, pointless and didn't counter anything else he said. I just pointed it out to you in case you hadn't understood something regarding what he said.

[Kaboom]

Let's not start arguing over how other people do or don't debate, and start picking each other's words apart in a petty manner, okay?


Anyway, there's really nothing to indicate that Tenshinhan should rightfully be stronger than Kuririn in any way.

Like I said, they were already practically equal during the Saiyan arc. 1,770 vs 1,830 — less than a 5% difference in power. Then they both had things happen during the Namek arc that increased their strength greatly — Kuririn's boost from the Grand Elder, and Ten's training under Kaio. Neither of them did anything in the Androids/Cell arc to show who was the stronger one. Then finally in the Majin Boo arc we get a plain and simple statement telling us Kuririn's the strongest Earthling, which everything new now repeats.

If that Boo-arc statement didn't exist, and there was no outside word, then there'd be nothing in the manga to show which one is stronger, and it would be a mystery worth debating. But that's not the case.

[rereboy]

Anyway, there's really nothing to indicate that Tenshinhan should rightfully be stronger than Kuririn in any way.

No, there's not. But while Krillin has nothing weighing in on his side besides the statement, Tenshinhan does have some stuff. If the statement didn't exist and if Toriyama had never talked about who is stronger, I seriously doubt anyone would think Krillin is stronger than Tenshinhan looking at the manga.

[DBZAOTA482]

Here's a list of the strongest to weakest human characters that matter by a fellow user (with a few tweaks by me):

1. Krillin
2. Tenshinhan
3. Yamcha
4. Chaozu
5. Yajirobe
6. Tao Pai Pai
7. Muten Roshi
8. Grampa Gohan
9. Chi Chi
10.Tsuru-senin
11. Gyumao
12. General Blue
13. King Chappa
14. Nam
15. Bora
16. Bacterian <------------- I added him
17. Pamputto
18. Videl
19. Mr. Satan
20. Ranfan
21. Farmer
22. Bulma

Oob doesn't count. He is a reincarnation of Boo. If you feel he does count then he gets the number 1 spot and demotes everyone on the list by one level.

[fadeddreams5]

That moment you realize Mr. Satan has been more useful against major villains than Yamcha.

[Kamiccolo9]

That moment you realize Mr. Satan has been more useful against major villains than Yamcha.

He's been more useful than Gohan, Gotenks, Piccolo, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Roshi, Trunks, and Goten as well, so I don't see how that makes Yamcha look bad.

[fadeddreams5]

That moment you realize Mr. Satan has been more useful against major villains than Yamcha.

He's been more useful than Gohan, Gotenks, Piccolo, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Roshi, Trunks, and Goten as well, so I don't see how that makes Yamcha look bad.

Rephrase: the moment when you realize Mr. Satan has been more useful than Yamcha... period.

[In Brightest Day]

The arguments in favor of Tien can be summed up in two bulletpoints:

- At one point in time, Tien was the stronger of the two.
- Tien has a serious demeanor.

Neither of those two points are enough reason for why he "should" be stronger than Krillin in the later arcs.

[fadeddreams5]

The arguments in favor of Tenshinhan can be summed up in two bulletpoints:

- At one point in time, Tenshinhan was the stronger of the two.
- Tenshinhan has a serious demeanor.

Neither of those two points are enough reason for why he "should" be stronger than Krillin in the later arcs.

- Clearly stronger in the past.
- No indication of ever being surpassed.
- Superior feats.
- He's continued to train, while the other does not (or stopped for a long time). Krillin isn't an alien. Logically, if a human stops training, and another human who has shown to be equal or better to him continues, the gap between them should be very large.

[Kaboom]

- Clearly stronger in the past.
- No indication of ever being surpassed.
- Superior feats.
- He's continued to train, while the other does not (or stopped for a long time). Krillin isn't an alien. Logically, if a human stops training, and another human who has shown to be equal or better to him continues, the gap between them should be very large.

— Meaningless. A past status quo doesn't mean things can't change. Vegeta was a lot stronger than Goku when they first met and fought, and had been stronger than Goku for his entire life up to that point. Does that guarantee that Vegeta must always remain stronger than Goku?

— You mean besides the statements from a character in the manga, various publications, and even the original author, all saying that Kuririn is the strongest Earthling?

— There are no "feats" showing Tenshinhan to be stronger than Kuririn. None whatsoever. Any instances of him charging into battle while Kuririn stayed behind only show that Ten is more courageous or reckless, not that he's more powerful. Anything he accomplished with the Kikoho or Shin Kikoho is a credit to the attack, not Tenshinhan himself. Using them to argue that Ten is superior would require proving that Kuririn couldn't do the same thing if he knew it as well. When something shows us Cell-arc Kuririn shooting the Shin Kikoho at Stage-2 Cell, and it doesn't move him or slow him down, then Tenshinhan will have a "feat" in his favor.

— "Continuing to train" means nothing on its own. If Kuririn had a big enough lead on Ten, then even retirement wouldn't let him be surpassed in seven years. Just like how Goku slacked off in the 5 years before Raditz's arrival, but was still stronger than Piccolo. Or how Gohan slacked off for 7 years after Cell but Vegeta hadn't quite surpassed him. After training for roughly 15 years, Goku still hadn't surpassed Freeza without Super Saiyan, while Freeza's power remained stagnant while he was dead. Etcetera.

[In Brightest Day]

Lol. Kaboom posted. And what I said again.

[dbgtFO]

Krillin had been undermined by the Saiyans and Piccolo for years, so I think Toriyama just decided, that he at least got to be the strongest earthling, because he's the one earthling Toriyama liked the most and that was his way of making up to him.
Furthermore Tenshinhan was "retired" from the manga at that point and Yamcha didn't even participate in the tournament, so Krillin it is.

[lord turbo]

Kuririn being the strongest Earthling doesn't bother me, but there is really no evidence of it either for who's stronger than who in the manga, and before someone brings up Yamcha, I'm well aware of his line. However, Yamcha hasn't seen Tenshinhan in seven years and has no idea how strong he is currently now so his claim is no more baseless than Vegeta claiming he's stronger than Goku seven years later without even seeing him in person or checking him out in action. Everything else that points to Kuririn is out of universe explanations like the Toriyama interview, but if I recall correctly that interview always felt a little funny to me because it was someone else that brought up Kuririn being the strongest Earthling and Toriyama had sort of a "Oh yeah, cool, he is isn't he? response to it as in he;s not thinking about it for a moment and starting an answer, but agreeing with what someone said without thinking.

That's just how I saw it, been a while since I've read that interview. The other sources is the BoGs and RoF character bios that state Kuririn is the strongest Earthling. Again out of universe and never implied or stated in the actual material set in the series. Also, some may talk those bios with a grain of salt as they also state Gohan's BP surpasses that of a pure Saiyajin and does it again in the RoF and well. Gohan technically is inferior to Goku and Vegeta so don't know about those bios being 100% infallible. In any case despite all these questionable sources I still go with Kuririn > Tenshinhan. Its not like he has to be stronger than him by a great amount or anything, but whatever.

Also, Kaboom, I'd be very careful about that part with base Goku and Freeza 15 years later. Some people I've seen around here believe the opposite.

[dbgtFO]

That's just how I saw it, been a while since I've read that interview.

Yes, that is how it goes:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... ma-nozawa/
Toriyama:
"Kuririn was originally supposed to be just a minor role, so to have him become Goku’s best friend in the blink of an eye…"

Koyama:
"Well, he is the strongest Earthling male."

Toriyama:
"You’re right, he is the strongest among the Earthlings. But in spite of that, he tends to end up in a bad way, so I thought, “once in a while, I have to let him be happy,” and had him get married. (laughs)"

[rereboy]

The arguments in favor of Tenshinhan can be summed up in two bulletpoints:

- At one point in time, Tenshinhan was the stronger of the two.
- Tenshinhan has a serious demeanor.

Neither of those two points are enough reason for why he "should" be stronger than Krillin in the later arcs.

I think that if you read my previous posts, you will find that there is more to it than that.

— Meaningless. A past status quo doesn't mean things can't change. Vegeta was a lot stronger than Goku when they first met and fought, and had been stronger than Goku for his entire life up to that point. Does that guarantee that Vegeta must always remain stronger than Goku?

True, by itself it doesn't mean it can't change.

— You mean besides the statements from a character in the manga, various publications, and even the original author, all saying that Kuririn is the strongest Earthling?

Pointless. The user has admitted in the previous page the validity of the Yamcha's statement. He is talking about stuff besides that statement, since that statement is literally the only thing in the manga than suggests that Krillin is superior.

(The rest, outside of the manga, can be perfectly ignored, but not Yamcha's statement).

— There are no "feats" showing Tenshinhan to be stronger than Kuririn. None whatsoever. Any instances of him charging into battle while Kuririn stayed behind only show that Ten is more courageous or reckless, not that he's more powerful. Anything he accomplished with the Kikoho or Shin Kikoho is a credit to the attack, not Tenshinhan himself. Using them to argue that Ten is superior would require proving that Kuririn couldn't do the same thing if he knew it as well. When something shows us Cell-arc Kuririn shooting the Shin Kikoho at Stage-2 Cell, and it doesn't move him or slow him down, then Tenshinhan will have a "feat" in his favor.

There are no feats directly comparing the two, but its undeniable that Tenshinhan has better feats after Namek than Krillin and Krillin does nothing of note fighting wise after Namek.

— "Continuing to train" means nothing on its own. If Kuririn had a big enough lead on Ten, then even retirement wouldn't let him be surpassed in seven years. Just like how Goku slacked off in the 5 years before Raditz's arrival, but was still stronger than Piccolo. Or how Gohan slacked off for 7 years after Cell but Vegeta hadn't quite surpassed him. After training for roughly 15 years, Goku still hadn't surpassed Freeza without Super Saiyan, while Freeza's power remained stagnant while he was dead. Etcetera.

Continuing to train while one character does not means that the character that trains will improve and that the other will not. It doesn't compare the two directly but its perfectly relevant.

By all means, its not impossible that Krillin is superior, even excluding Yamcha's statement, because there's nothing definitive, but considering how things are portrayed and the context of the arcs after Namek, especially since we can't even be sure that Tenshinhan didn't catch up to Krillin with his training at Kaio's and for the Cell arc, what makes most sense in the manga is for Tenshinhan to be superior by the end of the manga. He is not because he is stated to not be, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make the most sense for Tenshinhan to be superior.

[Hitiro]

That moment you realize Mr. Satan has been more useful against major villains than Yamcha.

He's been more useful than Gohan, Gotenks, Piccolo, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Roshi, Trunks, and Goten as well, so I don't see how that makes Yamcha look bad.

I don't think this is fair for Piccolo, Gohan or Roshi to be honest. Roshi got rid of Tsuru-sennin, because he was the driving force behind Tenshinhan killing Goku. Piccolo took out Raditz. And Gohan beat Vegeta with Oozaru and took out Cell, admittedly beating Cell was through the action of Mr. Satan lobbing #16's head over to Gohan. But I don't see how that places Mr. Satan above Gohan because the only use he had was being a lapdog while Gohan actually killed the enemy.

[macho_man]

Dragon Ball Raging Blast 2 already answered to this question in a what-if saga:
PART 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_1NJmlJPnQ
PART 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqVxbz8jO68

[Luso Saiyan]

He is not because he is stated to not be, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make the most sense for Tenshinhan to be superior.

Making "the most sense" is completely subjective. If nothing was ever stated, both arguments would be valid precisely because there's no proof one way or the other. There's nothing that could be used as evidence of anything.

[Diotor]

Does it even matter? They're both totally irrelevant when it comes to beating anyone post Namek, pretty much.