Goten and Trunks power discussion?

[rereboy]

The boys were in base, and it's never actually stated the strongest always comes out strong. Also, the kids actually did affect the first Piccolo-Boo.

I never found the logic in that "the kids were in base" argument. Are we really supposed to expect the kids to be physically in SSJ inside Buu's body when he is tapping into their power? And what are our grounds to expect that? Should we also expect Piccolo to look like he is rising their Ki like right before Piccolo faced #17? Or have fighting expressions? To me it makes far more sense that their energy and everything else is being sucked right out of them so, obviously, they wouldn't be physically in SSJ or have any other usual physical manifestation of using their power.

Also, yes, the kids affected Buu's appearance but the predominant feature in his appearance was Piccolo.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

We don't know for sure, that's why it's not good evidence. I mean, if Cell absorbed base Goten (the way he does a human), do you think he'd get his full power too? You're only as strong as a Super Saiyan when you're transformed into one, so I don't see why the "kids were in base" argument doesn't work.

Either way, it's never explicitly stated that the strongest always comes out. And Dai Kaioshin implies that it's not always strongest.

[rereboy]

We don't know for sure, that's why it's not good evidence. I mean, if Cell absorbed base Goten (the way he does a human), do you think he'd get his full power too? You're only as strong as a Super Saiyan when you're transformed into one, so I don't see why the "kids were in base" argument doesn't work.

Either way, it's never explicitly stated that the strongest always comes out. And Dai Kaioshin implies that it's not always strongest.

To me, its simply not very logical. It would imply that for Buu to use their power they would have to have all the physical manifestations of using their full power inside the cocoons, which includes Piccolo and Gohan. Seems like a large stretch to me and Dragon Ball is pretty much always straightforward.

I agree that Piccolo-Buu is not definite proof because we don't know exactly how it works with Buu and his absorptions, but that base argument doesn't make sense to me.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Then agree to disagree. But we can agree it's not the best evidence for either side.

I believe the boy's feats against Gohan and Vegeta pretty much show the kids are very close to Gohan, so unless you believe that Piccolo is very close to Gohan, I don't see enough for Piccolo > Kids.

[mAcChaos]

I can understand the first two points. But do you really think that they weren't above #18 as SSJ's? I can understand them being 2 or maybe 4 times weaker than their parents and Gohan but definitely not weaker than #18. Though honestly I feel that if they were 2x or 4x weaker than the adult Saiyan's they wouldn't be surprised at all by the attacks.

I put Goten and Trunks' attacks in the same category as final form Freeza getting knocked across the sky by Piccolo when they were all drained of power, and when Tenshinhan surprised Cell, and when Trunks surprised Fat Buu with a kick.

It's possible to get the drop on someone if they don't expect it, and nobody expected it from the kids.

#18 for instance, in the manga panels, says that she didn't expect them to be "THAT good." That could mean a lot of things. It could mean just good enough to be a real fighting power, not someone who was Namek Goku tier. I mean, if a 8 year old kid suddenly hit me with the force of a grown man's punch, I would be surprised too, even if I was a pro boxer.

As for Vegeta, if it was really Vegeta at his full power from a "reflex punch," then Trunks would just be dead. They still have control over their powers. Vegeta just put more strength into it. Same power level, more effort.

Gohan looks like he is concentrating, but that doesn't mean he is struggling to keep up. Both of them are into the training and sweating. For all we know he lowered his power to Goten's level, so they could have a decent training session. The same way that Piccolo and Goku must have trained after Namek, for the androids. Otherwise there would be no contest.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

#18 for instance, in the manga panels, says that she didn't expect them to be "THAT good." That could mean a lot of things. It could mean just good enough to be a real fighting power, not someone who was Namek Goku tier. I mean, if a 8 year old kid suddenly hit me with the force of a grown man's punch, I would be surprised too, even if I was a pro boxer.

She's literally sweating bullets, calling it dangerous for herself, and decides to end the match by risking a kienzan at them, instead of just knocking them out of the ring.

As for Vegeta, if it was really Vegeta at his full power from a "reflex punch," then Trunks would just be dead.

Proof?

They still have control over their powers. Vegeta just put more strength into it. Same power level, more effort.

Vegeta even had to check if Trunks was OK, the punch was out of instinct. When the doctor hits your knee with that funny thing, can you control how hard you kick is?

Gohan looks like he is concentrating, but that doesn't mean he is struggling to keep up. Both of them are into the training and sweating.

He's sweating, flaring his aura, and gritting his teeth. Goten even forces him into the air to avoid a hit. If Goten was massively weaker, it would be effortless.

For all we know he lowered his power to Goten's level

Completely speculative.

so they could have a decent training session.

The training was for Gohan, so holding back would be pointless and slow him down.

[ZazamPow]

I must say, I never thought of the kids as that strong, but I'm being swayed by the arguments in this thread. Although when Gotenks unfused, since Boo took on the properties of Piccolo, wouldn't that mean Piccolo was stronger than Goten and Trunks? Boo always takes on the properties of the strongest absorption, he doesn't seem to have any control over it since he was surprised when he automatically turned into Piccolo.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

If you read the conversation above with me and rereboy, that argument is inconclusive, and up to personal interpretation.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Stronger than the Base kids, yeah.

As for #18, the way she barely dodges the attack and notes the destructive power of it is enough to imply she would've taken considerable damage from it. Not to mention this attack wasn't even at full-power. When Vegeta knocked #18 down and used his Chi-blast, she didn't care enough to move. It did no damage and she called him a weakling right after. That alone shows that Trunks is way outta Super Saiyan Vegeta's league from back then.

[ZazamPow]

If you read the conversation above with me and rereboy, that argument is inconclusive, and up to personal interpretation.

Yeah but I disagree. Does the sentence "Boo takes the properties of his strongest absorption. Now that Gotenks defused, he's become Piccolo, because Piccolo is stronger than the kids!!" really need to be explicitly stated in the story? We can't just use common sense?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

It's never explicitly stated that he gets the strongest. Also, South Kaioshin > Dai Kaioshin, yet Fat Buu is more Dai Kaioshin.

Would common sense be ignoring every other feat / statement involving the kids just over an inconclusive scene?

[singsing]

If you read the conversation above with me and rereboy, that argument is inconclusive, and up to personal interpretation.

Everything you're using is inconclusive and up to personal interpretation. Especially the "face" argument. You just dismiss that as "another viewpoint, MY viewpoint is better because -insert nitpick detail about face-. I personally see no reason for them to be that strong, and my inconclusive personal interpretation is 18 was shocked by the kids' powers and wanted to end it quickly because there's two of them and they are rivaling her power. Which easily could put them as weak as SSJ Vegeta from the Android arc.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I don't see how. Vegeta never rivaled #18 in power.

[freezamite]

They were full power SSJ, but still kids, so I think they weren't as strong as FP SSJ Goku in the Cell games although they were well above the other SSJ Forms. If #18 had 3.000.000 units more or less, and Imperfect Cell sat at 6.000.000, then I would put Trunks and Goten at between 8.000.000 and 8.500.000 but still well below Goku's 10.500.000 in the Cell Games.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Everything you're using is inconclusive and up to personal interpretation. Especially the "face" argument. You just dismiss that as "another viewpoint, MY viewpoint is better because -insert nitpick detail about face-.

When did I say "MY viewpoint is better" ?

I personally see no reason for them to be that strong, and my inconclusive personal interpretation is 18 was shocked by the kids' powers and wanted to end it quickly because there's two of them and they are rivaling her power. Which easily could put them as weak as SSJ Vegeta from the Android arc.

18 called Android arc Vegeta nothing special so I don't how that would make them rival her. She pretty much tanked his blast, yet narrowly avoids Trunks and starts worrying for herself, enough that instead of attempting to knock them out of the ring, she has to end it with a Kienzan, which would be weird if she could knock them out of the ring.

You think Android arc Vegeta would give MSSJ Teen Gohan trouble in a sparring match?

[Hugo Boss]

I don't understand why No.18's reaction back in the story should be used to compare Trunks' and Vegeta's power, but okay. Vegeta actually rivaled her power, but she was controlling the flow of the fight as Vegeta gets tired.

One question, should Kid Gohan and Nailccolo give trouble to SS Goku in a sparring match?

[Hitiro]

I put Goten and Trunks' attacks in the same category as final form Freeza getting knocked across the sky by Piccolo when they were all drained of power, and when Tenshinhan surprised Cell, and when Trunks surprised Fat Buu with a kick.

Piccolo received energy from Gohan and Kuririn. And Piccolo had been healed by Dende prior to Freeza taking his final form. So I don't see much of a problem considering Freeza was heavily suppressed when he was booted. Tenshinhan restrained Cell with the Shin Kikoho. So it is a completely different thing. Do you think after 1 Shin Kikoho Cell is going to still be surprised by Tenshinhan and keep taking them? As for Trunks kicking Fat Boo. It is understandable. If Trunks were near his father in strength as a SSJ. Boo isn't going to be that much above him. So yes. It is understandable that Trunks could boot him flying.

It's possible to get the drop on someone if they don't expect it, and nobody expected it from the kids.

Given this then Mr. Satan should be able to as well. Right? The power difference between SSJ Trunks and Fat Boo shouldn't be that large. If SSJ Trunks really was that weak then the kick would have done absolutely nothing. I would imagine a 16x difference between Fat Boo and SSJ Trunks if Trunks was twice as weak as his father. If we take the figures I put up earlier as an indication of SSJ Trunks strength if he was near #18 then the difference between Trunks and Boo would be that Trunks is 136x weaker than him.

#18 for instance, in the manga panels, says that she didn't expect them to be "THAT good." That could mean a lot of things. It could mean just good enough to be a real fighting power, not someone who was Namek Goku tier. I mean, if a 8 year old kid suddenly hit me with the force of a grown man's punch, I would be surprised too, even if I was a pro boxer.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P8.4, P9.1-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
Trunks: “Da-dammit! We can’t win like this!”
Goten: “Let’s turn into Super Saiyans, Trunks!”
Trunks: “That's it! We’ve got this thing on, so she won’t be able to tell who we are…Alright! Shall we turn into [Super Saiyans]?”
Goten: “Yeah!”
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

Here Trunks specifically says she won't die if they do it appropriately. If they are below #18 then there really is no need for his comment here because she would be too strong to kill.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

Here #18 questions that they have outrageous power. She also says that this is dangerous. If she was stronger than them then how would it be dangerous?

As for Vegeta, if it was really Vegeta at his full power from a "reflex punch," then Trunks would just be dead. They still have control over their powers. Vegeta just put more strength into it. Same power level, more effort.

If I throw a reflex punch it may not be at full strength. But it definitely isn't a punch that is 1/36th of my power. Even if I subconsciously hold back it isn't going to be to that extent.

Gohan looks like he is concentrating, but that doesn't mean he is struggling to keep up. Both of them are into the training and sweating. For all we know he lowered his power to Goten's level, so they could have a decent training session. The same way that Piccolo and Goku must have trained after Namek, for the androids. Otherwise there would be no contest.

Gohan was literally forced back when he first fought his brother. To the point that he had to fly to get away. I can understand if he was surprised by first punch. Maybe even the second or third. Or even the fourth. But after that Gohan should have leveled out and matched his brother. The fact that he didn't shows that there isn't that much of a difference between him and his brother. As for Piccolo and Goku, you realise that they are around about the same level when Goku is in his base form. Right? We don't know when Piccolo started to fight SSJ Goku. It could have been near the end of their training for all we know. Not that I'm saying Goku couldn't have fought with Piccolo as a SSJ the whole time, though I doubt he would have gained anything from doing that.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

One question, should Kid Gohan and Nailccolo give trouble to SS Goku in a sparring match?

Based on what we see, Goku has no aura, isn't sweating, and taking on two people at once. It would also make sense for Goku to suppress to a lower level, since the training was for Gohan and Piccolo. We also see in the Android arc that Goku didn't improve that much while Piccolo improved a lot.

Meanwhile, Gohan is physically exerting effort, gritting his teeth, flaring his aura, and sweating bullets while only sparring with one person (Goten), it would also not make sense to suppress in this situation, since the training was initially for Gohan, and holding back would only slow him down. Just like Gohan would slow down Goku in the RoSaT until he became a Super Saiyan.

[mAcChaos]

I put Goten and Trunks' attacks in the same category as final form Freeza getting knocked across the sky by Piccolo when they were all drained of power, and when Tenshinhan surprised Cell, and when Trunks surprised Fat Buu with a kick.

Piccolo received energy from Gohan and Kuririn. And Piccolo had been healed by Dende prior to Freeza taking his final form. So I don't see much of a problem considering Freeza was heavily suppressed when he was booted. Tenshinhan restrained Cell with the Shin Kikoho. So it is a completely different thing. Do you think after 1 Shin Kikoho Cell is going to still be surprised by Tenshinhan and keep taking them? As for Trunks kicking Fat Boo. It is understandable. If Trunks were near his father in strength as a SSJ. Boo isn't going to be that much above him. So yes. It is understandable that Trunks could boot him flying.

It's possible to get the drop on someone if they don't expect it, and nobody expected it from the kids.

Given this then Mr. Satan should be able to as well. Right? The power difference between SSJ Trunks and Fat Boo shouldn't be that large. If SSJ Trunks really was that weak then the kick would have done absolutely nothing. I would imagine a 16x difference between Fat Boo and SSJ Trunks if Trunks was twice as weak as his father. If we take the figures I put up earlier as an indication of SSJ Trunks strength if he was near #18 then the difference between Trunks and Boo would be that Trunks is 136x weaker than him.

#18 for instance, in the manga panels, says that she didn't expect them to be "THAT good." That could mean a lot of things. It could mean just good enough to be a real fighting power, not someone who was Namek Goku tier. I mean, if a 8 year old kid suddenly hit me with the force of a grown man's punch, I would be surprised too, even if I was a pro boxer.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P8.4, P9.1-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
Trunks: “Da-dammit! We can’t win like this!”
Goten: “Let’s turn into Super Saiyans, Trunks!”
Trunks: “That's it! We’ve got this thing on, so she won’t be able to tell who we are…Alright! Shall we turn into [Super Saiyans]?”
Goten: “Yeah!”
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

Here Trunks specifically says she won't die if they do it appropriately. If they are below #18 then there really is no need for his comment here because she would be too strong to kill.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

Here #18 questions that they have outrageous power. She also says that this is dangerous. If she was stronger than them then how would it be dangerous?

As for Vegeta, if it was really Vegeta at his full power from a "reflex punch," then Trunks would just be dead. They still have control over their powers. Vegeta just put more strength into it. Same power level, more effort.

If I throw a reflex punch it may not be at full strength. But it definitely isn't a punch that is 1/36th of my power. Even if I subconsciously hold back it isn't going to be to that extent.

Gohan looks like he is concentrating, but that doesn't mean he is struggling to keep up. Both of them are into the training and sweating. For all we know he lowered his power to Goten's level, so they could have a decent training session. The same way that Piccolo and Goku must have trained after Namek, for the androids. Otherwise there would be no contest.

Gohan was literally forced back when he first fought his brother. To the point that he had to fly to get away. I can understand if he was surprised by first punch. Maybe even the second or third. Or even the fourth. But after that Gohan should have leveled out and matched his brother. The fact that he didn't shows that there isn't that much of a difference between him and his brother. As for Piccolo and Goku, you realise that they are around about the same level when Goku is in his base form. Right? We don't know when Piccolo started to fight SSJ Goku. It could have been near the end of their training for all we know. Not that I'm saying Goku couldn't have fought with Piccolo as a SSJ the whole time, though I doubt he would have gained anything from doing that.

1) Freeza was at least at 6 million, that's still at least a gap of like 6x to Piccolo even with Krillin and Gohan's measly leftover power that they scrounged together. I never figured their extra power was worth anything really.

2) Why would SSJ Trunks be anywhere near Fat Buu. Fat Buu was dancing all over SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, so he's SSJ2+ tier.

3) I'm not sure how the Shin Kihoho was portrayed in the manga (don't remember) but I think it all happened pretty fast, so it's possible Cell was still surprised. Unlike the anime where he had time to recover and keep bullrushing into it over and over for like a whole episode.

4) See, I always interpreted that line from #18 as meaning dangerous /for the audience/. You had to two kids who were loose cannons, throwing around powerful ki blasts in a crowded environment. It's like giving an 8 year old a machine gun. She knew she had to stop them before they hurt people.

5) Furthermore, Trunks and Goten wouldn't be able to sense how strong #18 was. So how would Trunks know how much it would take to destroy her?

6) Ah I didn't think of Piccolo training with Goku in base. For Gohan though, that could just mean Gohan had gotten weaker than we thought during the 7 years, rather than Goten being very strong.

[Hitiro]

1) Freeza was at least at 6 million, that's still at least a gap of like 6x to Piccolo even with Krillin and Gohan's measly leftover power that they scrounged together. I never figured their extra power was worth anything really.

Their power probably wasn't worth much. But Piccolo was still close to Base Goku at this time so the difference between him and Freeza is like 10x to 20x.

2) Why would SSJ Trunks be anywhere near Fat Buu. Fat Buu was dancing all over SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, so he's SSJ2+ tier.

I meant closer to Fat Boo than you're making him out to be. As I pointed out SSJ Trunks would be 136x weaker than Fat Boo if he was below #18. With that amount of difference it wouldn't have mattered if Trunks kicked him. It would have done absolutely nothing. At least if SSJ Trunks was in the 10x to 20x range it is semi believable.

3) I'm not sure how the Shin Kihoho was portrayed in the manga (don't remember) but I think it all happened pretty fast, so it's possible Cell was still surprised. Unlike the anime where he had time to recover and keep bullrushing into it over and over for like a whole episode.

It plays out pretty much the same way in the manga. Cell even has time to say "Curse him" after the very first Shin Kikoho while he is flying up to leave before he is hit by another. So I don't believe it was just the "surprise" that held him at bay. He even saw the attack coming at the start.

Spoiler:

4) See, I always interpreted that line from #18 as meaning dangerous /for the audience/. You had to two kids who were loose cannons, throwing around powerful ki blasts in a crowded environment. It's like giving an 8 year old a machine gun. She knew she had to stop them before they hurt people.

They moved the battle up in the sky. I highly doubt the audience would be affected by their battle up there. But if you want to think that it's your opinion.

5) Furthermore, Trunks and Goten wouldn't be able to sense how strong #18 was. So how would Trunks know how much it would take to destroy her?

Goku, Vegeta and Gohan gauged Dabra's level without sensing him. They also judged the Kaioshin and Kibito be strong when they couldn't sense their Ki.

6) Ah I didn't think of Piccolo training with Goku in base. For Gohan though, that could just mean Gohan had gotten weaker than we thought during the 7 years, rather than Goten being very strong.

Gohan had probably gotten weaker. But weaker to the point that his brother, who you think would be under #18, could cause him to sweat profusely and be a difficult sparring partner for him? Gohan would have had to have gotten over 30x weaker for that to happen as I suggested in my previous post. And in a month he got enough of his strength back to be an even match with Dabra who was around Cell's level? I'm not sure that is possible in my opinion. Same for Vegeta really. He was actually pressured by his son to respond by a reflex. I can understand Vegeta being surprised at the beginning of the "try to hit me" thing. But after the first few blows Vegeta should have increased his strength, if Trunks was 34x weaker than him, so that Trunks wouldn't be able to hit him. The fact that Trunks pressured his own dad must mean that they are somewhat close to each other in strength. Because we've seen characters who are 2x stronger than others absolutely blitz their opponents. Vegeta should be able to do that too if the difference was that stark.