Would Z have been as successful on US TV if JPN BGM was kept

[EXBadguy]

Meh...

DB Wiki: Faulconer lovin' old geezers
Kanzenshuu: Kikuchi lovin' old geezers

Just saiyan. *walks away*

[ABED]

That's more important to me than conveying a sense of drama in a show with aliens, humanoid animals, and yeah, pew pew pew...lasers. =P

Shows with aliens and humanoid animals can't have drama? This isn't like we're trying to make it out to be a serious drama, but those moments sprinkled throughout, such as Kuririn's death, make for a fuller experience than just pew pew pew. What I find irritating about your POV is that because you don't like certain things, you think it's fine for someone to come in and change the intended meaning to something you prefer by haphazardly adding music that completely clashes with everything else. It's like you want a different show. You're trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

[MagicBox]

With all this talk about how Kikuchi's music wouldn't have worked because it "has too much silence," I can't help but think of Inspector Gadget, which Shuki Levy did the original music for. I've got no idea whether Levy actually did the music placement or not, but that show used background silence to great effect. I remember a lot of moments that had no music playing at all, and it really stood out in a good way. The show was still very popular.

If Levy's music was used in as many episodes as Faulconer's then people would be crediting him for making DBZ popular in America and his videos would be getting millions of views on Youtube. All this Faulconer popularity in recent years is because of a tidal wave of Toonami related nostalgia.

What this tells me is that people would have latched onto the positive aspects of any score they were given and, in hindsight, had nostalgia for whatever it was they grew up with. Which I agree with. Which is why I maintain that we'd have all been fine with Kikuchi/Tokunaga from the get-go.

Meh...

DB Wiki: Faulconer lovin' old geezers
Kanzenshuu: Kikuchi lovin' old geezers

Just saiyan. *walks away*

I'm not sure what this is trying to "sai," whether it's a playful jab towards both communities or simply a random, humorless "people are different" acknowledgement (in which case, yeah... that's true?). At any rate, if you're trying to express an opinion by saying this, it's flying over my head.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

I think we should all join together despite our differences in favorite score creators whether it be Faulconer, Yamamoto, Levy, Sumitomo, or Kikuchi. I mean the reason we're all here is because we love Dragon Ball, right? We love seeing Goku's timeless adventures throughout Earth and the friendships he makes along with the bad guys he defeats whether it be King Piccolo on Earth or Frieza on Planet Namek. We're here because Goku is a hero and for the way good always defeats evil and enemies become friends in the series. We're here for the values he and the show have.

So what's it matter about the score? It's the themes of the show and what values we get from it that matters, right? Who cares if the DB Wiki (an excellent Wiki, I might add) likes Faulconer and Kanzenshuu likes Kikuchi? Who cares if someone likes the Ocean dub or the FUNImation dub? As people we need to quit segregating over our differences and instead band together. If we can't do this we'll never get that Nazi at Toei to order a re-animation of the series.

[EXBadguy]

I'm not sure what this is trying to "sai," whether it's a playful jab towards both communities or simply a random, humorless "people are different" acknowledgement (in which case, yeah... that's true?).

I'm doing both. Both communities can be ridiculous sometimes, but people have different tastes. For me, I like both Faulconer and Kikuchi's work(to a degree), though I like Faulconer's music eons better than most of Kikuchi's Z work.

I think we should all join together despite our differences in favorite score creators whether it be Faulconer, Yamamoto, Levy, Sumitomo, or Kikuchi. I mean the reason we're all here is because we love Dragon Ball, right? We love seeing Goku's timeless adventures throughout Earth and the friendships he makes along with the bad guys he defeats whether it be King Piccolo on Earth or Freeza on Planet Namek. We're here because Goku is a hero and for the way good always defeats evil and enemies become friends in the series. We're here for the values he and the show have.

So what's it matter about the score? It's the themes of the show and what values we get from it that matters, right? Who cares if the DB Wiki (an excellent Wiki, I might add) likes Faulconer and Kanzenshuu likes Kikuchi? Who cares if someone likes the Ocean dub or the FUNImation dub? As people we need to quit segregating over our differences and instead band together. If we can't do this we'll never get that Nazi at Toei to order a re-animation of the series.

Spoken like a true champ!

[kei17]

I think we should all join together despite our differences in favorite score creators whether it be Faulconer, Yamamoto, Levy, Sumitomo, or Kikuchi. I mean the reason we're all here is because we love Dragon Ball, right? We love seeing Goku's timeless adventures throughout Earth and the friendships he makes along with the bad guys he defeats whether it be King Piccolo on Earth or Freeza on Planet Namek. We're here because Goku is a hero and for the way good always defeats evil and enemies become friends in the series. We're here for the values he and the show have.

So what's it matter about the score? It's the themes of the show and what values we get from it that matters, right? Who cares if the DB Wiki (an excellent Wiki, I might add) likes Faulconer and Kanzenshuu likes Kikuchi? Who cares if someone likes the Ocean dub or the FUNImation dub? As people we need to quit segregating over our differences and instead band together. If we can't do this we'll never get that Nazi at Toei to order a re-animation of the series.

Says the guy who called Kikuchi's music just noise in the previous page.

Anyway, your statement barely has anything to do with the topic.

[fadeddreams5]

That's more important to me than conveying a sense of drama in a show with aliens, humanoid animals, and yeah, pew pew pew...lasers. =P

Shows with aliens and humanoid animals can't have drama? This isn't like we're trying to make it out to be a serious drama, but those moments sprinkled throughout, such as Kuririn's death, make for a fuller experience than just pew pew pew. What I find irritating about your POV is that because you don't like certain things, you think it's fine for someone to come in and change the intended meaning to something you prefer by haphazardly adding music that completely clashes with everything else. It's like you want a different show. You're trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

That sounds more like FUNimation's POV. I just happen to like the direction they went.

I feel the drama is represented by the scenes themselves, with Kikuchi and Faulconer trying to accomplish different things with their music. Kikuchi's OST accentuates whatever feelings the scenes are trying to convey, while Faulconer amplifies the sense of excitement that young boys will capture from those moments.

I don't think young boys will be aware of or analyze Kikuchi's music to understand how it works with the scenes, or its appreciate its overall quality. But with Faulconer, the hype is manifested through the music. Like I said, the SSJ theme made that scene for me when I was little. Same with Vegeta's SSJ theme. It made it that much cooler, and as a kid, that's all that mattered to me.

[Valerius Dover]

I don't think young boys will be aware of or analyze Kikuchi's music to understand how it works with the scenes, or its appreciate its overall quality. But with Faulconer, the hype is manifested through the music. Like I said, the SSJ theme made that scene for me when I was little. Same with Vegeta's SSJ theme. It made it that much cooler, and as a kid, that's all that mattered to me.

This is exactly the point. If there was no alternative, nobody would be questioning the original score. The kids who watched Dragon Ball Z Kai on Nicktoons didn't question the music, the very same music that was replaced in Dragon Ball Z, apparently deemed unsuitable for their older brothers 10 years prior. I hate to repeat myself, but nobody talks about a US score for Naruto, because such a thought never occurred to anyone.

Since the replacement music is there now, we can judge it both positively and negatively depending on preferences. But you can't talk about something if it doesn't exist. It just so happens, that in this case, it does. The OP question, however, is if the original score would've been successful with nobody even considering replacing it. Again, I say yes here. Just look at Dragon Ball Z Kai and there's your proof.

There's also the simple fact that most kids really don't care about music in their shows at all.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

Says the guy who called Kikuchi's music just noise in the previous page.

I didn't just call it noise, I also called it a melodic holocaust. I still stand by those two definitions as well. But that wasn't the point of my post. I may not like Kikuchi's music but it doesn't mean I dislike people who have the opinion that he's a musical genius and the finest mind of his generation. I was saying that we need to make sure that in voicing our opinions/insults about the music by the series' various composers we need to remember we're all here because of Goku. And too fucking bad if my post didn't have anything to do with the topic. What are you gonna do, banish me to HFIL?

There's also the simple fact that most kids really don't care about music in their shows at all.

We have to wonder then why Z's popularity skyrocketed once Faulconer was brought in for season 3.

[Kakacarrottop]

Says the guy who called Kikuchi's music just noise in the previous page.

I didn't just call it noise, I also called it a melodic holocaust. I still stand by those two definitions as well. But that wasn't the point of my post. I may not like Kikuchi's music but it doesn't mean I dislike people who have the opinion that he's a musical genius and the finest mind of his generation. I was saying that we need to make sure that in voicing our opinions/insults about the music by the series' various composers we need to remember we're all here because of Goku. And too fucking bad if my post didn't have anything to do with the topic. What are you gonna do, banish me to HFIL?

There's also the simple fact that most kids really don't care about music in their shows at all.

We have to wonder then why Z's popularity skyrocketed once Faulconer was brought in for season 3.

But it didn't. The only reason a third season was made was because the Ocean/Saban episodes (with Shuki Levy's score) were so extremely popular on CN. A blind hobbo hired off the street could of composed music for Season 3 and the show still would be getting huge ratings.

[MagicBox]

We have to wonder then why Z's popularity skyrocketed once Faulconer was brought in for season 3.

An increase in Cartoon Network viewers.

The recent re-launch of (and re-interest in) Toonami.

Finally getting new DBZ episodes after a year and a half of reruns.

There were many factors and you'd have to ignore nearly all of them to credit the music for the show's success. Keep in mind, the new music and voices were not received well in 1999. Turns out people don't like change. *hint, hint*

[Gaffer Tape]

Because anticipation had risen to a fever pitch after the show had gotten big on Toonami repeating the same reruns for a year? Because people had been waiting two years to see Freeza go down? Because there were suddenly new episodes five times a week? Because there was less censoring? Obviously this is all just speculation on my part, but I feel they're much more likely than people switching it on and going, "Hmm, I saw this show before, but the music didn't do it for me. But now I have to watch it!"

I mean, my own personal reaction back in '99 was, "Yeesh, I hate this music, but I'm going to keep watching because I want to see more DBZ!"

[Kakacarrottop]

The fact the show still managed to remain popular after season 3 (despite amateur VAs and musicians taking over) is testament to how popular the first two seasons were and what kind of impression they left on everyone. If the show started with Faulconer, 1999 Sabat and 1999 Schemmel in season 1 then the show would have been less popular on CN. The first two seasons were very professionally made, despite the censorship. Faulconer's music coming in represents the point when it became an amateur, non-professional operation, and his music leaving in 2003 represents the point when the dub started to get professional again.

[ABED]

We have to wonder then why Z's popularity skyrocketed once Faulconer was brought in for season 3.

Ad hoc ergo propter hoc.

There's also the simple fact that most kids really don't care about music in their shows at all.

I think theme songs are a big deal, though that's not what we're discussing.

I feel the drama is represented by the scenes themselves, with Kikuchi and Faulconer trying to accomplish different things with their music.

One tries to accentuate the scene, and the other completely misinterprets it?

I mean, my own personal reaction back in '99 was, "Yeesh, I hate this music, but I'm going to keep watching because I want to see more DBZ!"

Pretty much my reaction as well.

[DBZAOTA482]

We have to wonder then why Z's popularity skyrocketed once Faulconer was brought in for season 3.

It became that popular cuz it aired on Toonami with reruns, to the point people demanded for season 3. Before then it was on sydnication for the first two seasons and suffered low ratings as a result (it was cancelled twice).

[GS7X7]

Yeah, once it hit Toonami it took off immediately.

I remember before then it was on an odd channels at an odd time- I saw it maybe once and forgot about it though it did look awesome at the time.

[fadeddreams5]

I don't think young boys will be aware of or analyze Kikuchi's music to understand how it works with the scenes, or its appreciate its overall quality. But with Faulconer, the hype is manifested through the music. Like I said, the SSJ theme made that scene for me when I was little. Same with Vegeta's SSJ theme. It made it that much cooler, and as a kid, that's all that mattered to me.

This is exactly the point. If there was no alternative, nobody would be questioning the original score. The kids who watched Dragon Ball Z Kai on Nicktoons didn't question the music, the very same music that was replaced in Dragon Ball Z, apparently deemed unsuitable for their older brothers 10 years prior. I hate to repeat myself, but nobody talks about a US score for Naruto, because such a thought never occurred to anyone.

Since the replacement music is there now, we can judge it both positively and negatively depending on preferences. But you can't talk about something if it doesn't exist. It just so happens, that in this case, it does. The OP question, however, is if the original score would've been successful with nobody even considering replacing it. Again, I say yes here. Just look at Dragon Ball Z Kai and there's your proof.

There's also the simple fact that most kids really don't care about music in their shows at all.

I wrote this a few pages prior in regards to the topic itself:
"I haven't read this entire topic, but I will say that the series would have very likely been just as popular. I don't think kids (intended demographic) pay too much attention to BGM--at least, not over the actual substance of the show.

When I was a kid, I used to buy bootleg VHS tapes that had Japanese episodes from the Android and Buu sagas at a time when they were airing the Namek saga in the US. I didn't like the music in the Japanese version at all (or Goku's voice), and figured it was like that because the show aired many years prior in Japan. This was BEFORE Faulconer even replaced the score in between the Ginyu Force battle. In other words, even though I never payed much mind to the BGM from the original Ocean dub, I straight up disliked Kikuchi's score. But did this stop me from buying more bootlegs and enjoying the subbed version? NO! I still loved the characters, the villains, the action, the art, and so on! That said, it did make me anticipate the English version of those subbed episodes more.

I became a fan of Faulconer's music AFTER I had already been exposed to Kikuchi's soundtrack. It was the first time I found myself wanting to re-watch scenes just for the music, such as the Ginyu Force theme that played when Goku fought Ginyu, Burter, and Jeice. The theme that plays when Goku goes SSJ for the first time gave me chills. The music that plays during Gohan's beam struggle with Cell MAKES that scene for me. It made me love DBZ more, but even before it, I already loved the series."

The post you quoted was related to a Kikuchi vs Faulconer debate that seems to have escalated. Kids would enjoy the show no matter what, but I feel that Faulconer's music stands out more for them because its entire purpose is to generate a sense of hype that accompanies each significant scene (though it never shuts up, which is something I don't like either). Not saying it fits better than Kikuchi's, but I feel it does stand out more, whereas Kikuchi's goes relatively unnoticed, similarly to the Ocean dub's soundtrack.

Let's be real, Kids and teenagers fell in love with DBZ because, besides the awesome characters and story, it's freakin' cool. Faulconer's music accentuates those cool moments, as many anime nowadays do (examples provided in my previous post), while Kikuchi emphasizes more on the mood/atmosphere of the actual scenes. Neither is a bad thing, imo, given the nature of the show. The main argument from Kikuchi fans is that they had no right to change the music in the first place, which is valid. But I'm one of those glad they did because now I get to enjoy multiple versions of the show.

[Valerius Dover]

Let's be real, Kids and teenagers fell in love with DBZ because, besides the awesome characters and story, it's freakin' cool. Faulconer's music accentuates those cool moments, as many anime nowadays do (examples provided in my previous post), while Kikuchi emphasizes more on the mood/atmosphere of the actual scenes. Neither is a bad thing, imo, given the nature of the show. The main argument from Kikuchi fans is that they had no right to change the music in the first place, which is valid. But I'm one of those glad they did because now I get to enjoy multiple versions of the show.

Don't get me wrong. I really like the US soundtracks. I have yet to even see the original version of Z since I'm still seeing GT. I'm just being realistic based on the airing of Dragon Ball Z Kai. I also think it's more interesting to enjoy different versions of a series. It gives me an excuse to watch the series more times and still be surprised each time.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

So Japan released a chart today that rated their anime's scores with Neon Genesis Evangelion ranking #1 as the best score of all time, and in second place was Dragon Ball. Since this is Japan it was obviously Kikuchi's score. That's pretty impressive, and my only response is that it's a different culture and was from a different time (late 80's/early-mid 90's). Kind of like musical tastes have changed in the U.S. as well.

Of course, I'm happy that Dragon Ball scored so high and even beat shows like Attack on Titan and Ghost in the Shell, as well as Studio Ghibli films such as Castle in the Sky and Kiki's Delivery Service. However, I would like to say that if a poll were run in the U.S. concerning anime scores then the same thing would probably happen with Faulconer. People in Japan voted based on childhood nostalgia and their cultural attitudes towards music and what was in at the time and their different tastes due to culture. Same thing here.

Nonetheless, congratulations to Kikuchi for beating some of those damned impressive shows and movies.

EDIT: According to user kei17, "non-students" were polled which is probably why Attack on Titan lost to Dragon Ball. My guess is that older people haven't seen newer shows and again they went based off nostalgia. But still, it's nice to see such a timeless show rated so high.

[Dbzfan94]

I think we should all join together despite our differences in favorite score creators whether it be Faulconer, Yamamoto, Levy, Sumitomo, or Kikuchi. I mean the reason we're all here is because we love Dragon Ball, right? We love seeing Goku's timeless adventures throughout Earth and the friendships he makes along with the bad guys he defeats whether it be King Piccolo on Earth or Freeza on Planet Namek. We're here because Goku is a hero and for the way good always defeats evil and enemies become friends in the series. We're here for the values he and the show have.

So what's it matter about the score? It's the themes of the show and what values we get from it that matters, right? Who cares if the DB Wiki (an excellent Wiki, I might add) likes Faulconer and Kanzenshuu likes Kikuchi? Who cares if someone likes the Ocean dub or the FUNImation dub? As people we need to quit segregating over our differences and instead band together. If we can't do this we'll never get that Nazi at Toei to order a re-animation of the series.

While I agree with you, some people think the dub is a "completely different" show.

Also this ost directed at you just in general. There's more than one specific way to have a scene be shown. Just because Kikuchi is the original score, doesn't mean it's the definitive almighty soundtrack if the show like same people claim it to be. I love Kikuchi for DB and Z 1-67, but Faulconer Prodictions is just connected with the scenes for me.

The Faulconer (and his teams) tracks are much more than the "hardcore action/fighting themes." There are light hearted tracks for light hearted scenes , intense tracks for intense moments, etc.