Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Captain Space · Post by **Captain Space** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:06 pm

I wasn't aware Gyumao was in that game.

DBZAOTA482 · Post by **DBZAOTA482** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:07 pm

Captain Space wrote:I wasn't aware Gyumao was in that game.

Roshi says that when he's fighting Chi-Chi. Gyumao isn't in the game.

He's like "Ox-king's daughter? Never liked that guy."

Captain Space · Post by **Captain Space** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:11 pm

Ah, okay. Chi-Chi was the only one I never unlocked, so fair enough...

DBZAOTA482 · Post by **DBZAOTA482** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:26 pm

Average Human Power Level (Child) = 1-1.5
Average Human Power Level (Adult) = 2.5-3 (male), 2-3 (female)
Physically Active Human Power Level = 3.5-5
Peak Human Power Level = 5.5-8
Superhuman Power Level = 9+

Kaio-ken = 1.5x
Kaio-ken x2 = 2x
Kaio-ken x3 = 3x
Kaio-ken x4 = 4x
Kaio-ken x10 = 10x
Kaio-ken x20 = 20x

Pantalones · Post by **Pantalones** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:52 pm

Considering how drastic the differences just a few points seem to make at such low levels (if you take the beginning-of-Dragonball level for Goku seriously, anyway... double a normal human's level = smashing rocks with your bare hands and near-effortlessly beating the crap out of bear-men, giant fish, and dinosaurs? I know he had basic training in ki and martial arts on top of just brute force, but sheesh), I doubt that a normal "physically active" adult human is ever going to be a full two points ahead of a less-active normal adult human, or that the even-more-minor differences between males and females (...which are mostly due to the difference in height = better leverage, if you're comparing people at the same activity level; a 5'05" guy and a 5'05" girl are both going to be pretty similar, and both fairly weak in comparison to a 6'00" human of either sex, assuming that all three have around the same level of physical activity and none of them has built up a lot more muscle than the others) are going to be significant enough to be worth mentioning at all.

Like, I don't think I'd put Bulma at a power level of 3 or 4 just because she's smaller and less active than Farmer With Shotgun. Maybe a 4.5 or a 4.8 or something, but not a 4 and definitely not a 3.

Human babies probably have fractional power levels (essentially zero, or close enough), considering that a low-class baby Saiyan starts out around 2 as a newborn going by the Bardock special (and that's apparently abnormally low even for a Saiyan baby, so they're probably closer to adult human levels at birth normally.) 3 or 4 would probably be more like the level kids would be at, depending on age and size (a 5-year-old isn't going to be as strong as a 10-year-old, of course... so maybe 2 or 3 for a little five- or six-year-old child, something more in the 3 to 4 range for kids approaching the 10-year mark, and fractions beyond that as they approach the teenage years.) Teenagers who've already had their last big growth spurts are essentially just adults that haven't finished mentally developing yet, especially by time they hit the 16-18 range, so they'd still be in the 4.5 to 5ish range just like normal adults. Any drop from the standard adult level would be a result of them not quite having the "being in one's right mind" aspect of ki yet rather than an actual physical difference. XD

5.5 to 8 as "peak normal human" range sounds about right, though, assuming that you're going by the "kid Goku at the start of the series = 10" level from the guidebooks. I prefer to ignore most (if not all) of the Dragonball power levels, though, considering that so many of them clash with the actual story in some way... Z was designed with the numbers in mind so they tend to work better there, but original Dragonball was definitely not.

DBZAOTA482 · Post by **DBZAOTA482** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:23 pm

Pantalones wrote:Considering how drastic the differences just a few points seem to make at such low levels (if you take the beginning-of-Dragonball level for Goku seriously, anyway... double a normal human's level = smashing rocks with your bare hands and near-effortlessly beating the crap out of bear-men, giant fish, and dinosaurs? I know he had basic training in ki and martial arts on top of just brute force, but sheesh), I doubt that a normal "physically active" adult human is ever going to be a full two points ahead of a less-active normal adult human, or that the even-more-minor differences between males and females (...which are mostly due to the difference in height = better leverage, if you're comparing people at the same activity level; a 5'05" guy and a 5'05" girl are both going to be pretty similar, and both fairly weak in comparison to a 6'00" human of either sex, assuming that all three have around the same level of physical activity and none of them has built up a lot more muscle than the others) are going to be significant enough to be worth mentioning at all.

Like, I don't think I'd put Bulma at a power level of 3 or 4 just because she's smaller and less active than Farmer With Shotgun. Maybe a 4.5 or a 4.8 or something, but not a 4 and definitely not a 3.

Human babies probably have fractional power levels (essentially zero, or close enough), considering that a low-class baby Saiyan starts out around 2 as a newborn going by the Bardock special (and that's apparently abnormally low even for a Saiyan baby, so they're probably closer to adult human levels at birth normally.) 3 or 4 would probably be more like the level kids would be at, depending on age and size (a 5-year-old isn't going to be as strong as a 10-year-old, of course... so maybe 2 or 3 for a little five- or six-year-old child, something more in the 3 to 4 range for kids approaching the 10-year mark, and fractions beyond that as they approach the teenage years.) Teenagers who've already had their last big growth spurts are essentially just adults that haven't finished mentally developing yet, especially by time they hit the 16-18 range, so they'd still be in the 4.5 to 5ish range just like normal adults. Any drop from the standard adult level would be a result of them not quite having the "being in one's right mind" aspect of ki yet rather than an actual physical difference. XD

5.5 to 8 as "peak normal human" range sounds about right, though, assuming that you're going by the "kid Goku at the start of the series = 10" level from the guidebooks. I prefer to ignore most (if not all) of the Dragonball power levels, though, considering that so many of them clash with the actual story in some way... Z was designed with the numbers in mind so they tend to work better there, but original Dragonball was definitely not.

Sorry, but I have a hard time believing Bulma, a person with no particular physical strength whatsoever, can even be anywhere near the level of a group of people who can lift things roughly around their own weight. Bulma probably struggles to lift 20 pound dumbbells.

2-3 is more accurate to the likes of Bulma.

DBZAOTA482 · Post by **DBZAOTA482** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:02 am

I noticed there's no thread on how the Power Level Classes, and multipliers for power ups and transformations work. That's where I come in and decide to make thread on how they work. Hopefully others will contribute.

Here's what I got so far:

Classes

Average Human Power Level (Child) = 1-1.5
Average Human Power Level (Adult) = 2.5-3 (male), 2-3 (female)
Physically Active Human Power Level = 3.5-5
Peak Human Power Level = 5.5-8
Superhuman Power Level = 9+

Multipliers

Kaio-ken = 1.5x
Kaio-ken x2 = 2x
Kaio-ken x3 = 3x
Kaio-ken x4 = 4x
Kaio-ken x10 = 10x
Kaio-ken x20 = 20x
SSJ = 50x
SSJ2 = 100x
SSJ3 = 400x

Lord Beerus · Post by **Lord Beerus** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:12 am

Multipliers

SSJ = 50x
SSJ2 = 100x
SSJ3 = 400x

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:19 am

Multipliers

Super Saiyan = 50x
Super Saiyan 2 = 200x (4x SSJ)
Super Saiyan 3 = 1,000x (5x SSJ2 of 20x SSJ)

Legendary Super Saiyan = 150x (3x SSJ)

Super Saiyan Grade 2 = 66.67x (1.33x SSJ)
Super Saiyan Grade 3 = 150x (3x SSJ or 2.25x SSJG2)

DBZAOTA482 · Post by **DBZAOTA482** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:22 am

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Multipliers

Super Saiyan = 50x
Super Saiyan 2 = 200x
Super Saiyan 3 = 1,000x

Oh, these ones seem more believable.

Pantalones · Post by **Pantalones** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:23 am

At low levels, the difference a seemingly small gap makes is a lot bigger than it would be later on.

By the time you get to "beginning of Z" levels where everyone's in the hundreds, 5 points is essentially nothing. By the time millions start showing up, it's probably safe to assume that those numbers aren't actually conveniently even "3 and six zeroes" type numbers so much as "somewhere really, really close to 3 million so we just decided to round to the nearest nice whole number"--3,000,012 isn't really any different than 3,000,000.

But at "start of Dragonball" levels, a gap of just 5 points takes you from "ordinary adult human" to "lifting cars, smashing boulders with your bare hands, and knocking out dinosaurs." Things that could instantly kill or mortally wound someone at PL 5 won't even scratch someone at PL 10. So if just 5 points at the low end of the scale is that big of a deal, 2 or 3 points would be pretty significant too, a lot more significant than the difference between an average 16-year-old girl and a heavier, older guy who hefts hay bales around every now and then. Assuming that the lower you go the bigger difference one point makes, it seems to me like all you'd need to represent "real-life human level" strength gaps (like what you'd find between someone like Bulma and a random farmer) would be one full point at the most. The scouter power level system is a scale invented and used by an army of superhuman space pirates who destroy planets and their inhabitants for a living--the relatively tiny differences between two ordinary members of a near-powerless species on some distant backwater world aren't what the scale was intended to measure, so it kinda breaks down when it comes to measuring the differences between people who are, to even the wimpiest Saiyan warrior, basically identical in strength.

(And I'm pretty sure Bulma could lift quite a bit more than 20 pounds if she actually tried. Key words: if she actually tried. Kids in middle school and high school carry around backpacks full of books that are heavier than that every day--my sister weighed hers at one point years ago, toward the end of her time in middle school, and it nearly hit the 40 pound mark with all her books in it--so I doubt she's so weak she can't even lift that much. She's just not the sort of character who pushes her limits strength-wise often, and she certainly doesn't actively seek out things that will push those limits like the fighters do, so she probably wouldn't actually try to lift anything even remotely heavy in the first place unless she absolutely had to.)

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:32 am

Scouters measure ki, not muscle strength.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:34 am

So it turns out the last list actually wasn't finalized. Feedback appreciated

Legend
-Red: Ki attack/technique
-Gray: Hypothetical/unseen character/form
-Blue: Major Story arc
-Orange: Sub-arc
-Green: Reason for power change

Spoiler:

Namek arc

Spoiler:

Artificial Humans arc

Spoiler:

Majin Buu arc

Spoiler:

DBZAOTA482 · Post by **DBZAOTA482** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:50 am

Book bags are made to be lifted by people's entire torso on their backs hence the name "Backpack" while dumbells are lifted by arms, and we all know a whole torso is drastically stronger than arms.

So even if she can carry a 40+ or whatever pound book bag, she'd still struggle with 20 pound dumbbells.

DBZGTKOSDH · Post by **DBZGTKOSDH** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:35 am

DBZAOTA482 wrote:
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Multipliers

Super Saiyan = 50x
Super Saiyan 2 = 200x
Super Saiyan 3 = 1,000x
Oh, these ones seem more believable.

But they are incorrect. The correct ones are these:

Lord Beerus wrote:Multipliers

SSJ = 50x
SSJ2 = 100x
SSJ3 = 400x

And as for Kaio-ken, Kaio-ken & Kaio-ken x2 are the same thing.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:27 am

Not being in a guidebook doesn't make them incorrect.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:07 am

Rocketman wrote:Scouters measure ki, not muscle strength.

Beat me to it.

Yeah, these numbers are nothing more than measurements of how much raw ki a person has at their disposal. It doesn't take into account physical attributes, skills, mental strength, or anything else. It's why Goku at the start of the story can have a power level of "only" twice a normal human's, but still have physical strength and toughness far greater because of his Saiyan physiology.

DBZAOTA482 · Post by **DBZAOTA482** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:27 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Multipliers

Super Saiyan = 50x
Super Saiyan 2 = 200x
Super Saiyan 3 = 1,000x
Oh, these ones seem more believable.
But they are incorrect. The correct ones are these:

Lord Beerus wrote:Multipliers

SSJ = 50x
SSJ2 = 100x
SSJ3 = 400x

Okay then, I'll use that.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:02 pm

I merged DBZAOTA482 "classes and multiplers" topic with the fan-made power levels thread. Devising tiers and "multipliers" is just an extension of devising the numbers themselves, and doesn't need its own thread.

Skar · Post by **Skar** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:08 pm

Rocketman wrote:Scouters measure ki, not muscle strength.

That's something I didn't understand about ki. I understand Toriyama said that there's a limit to physical strength so they have to amply it further with ki but I think muscle strength is included in overall ki. Training with a heavy turtle shell, weighted clothes, and higher gravity should only be increasing their physical strength yet it also increased their ki. If physical training increases their ki then why wouldn't physical strength get factored into their power level which measures their ki?

Kanzenshuu

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