Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Kaboom]

Because ki is just ki. It's connected to and used to enhance attributes like physical strength, but it's not the actual level of strength itself. A scouter does not have the ability to measure the maximum weight you can bench press, it can only measure the amount of ki you're radiating.

Plus, not everything is always enhanced proportionately. People can have specialties or deficiencies. Someone like Nappa or Recoome who's built like a tank can have more physical strength or durability than someone with the same power level but a scrawny body. Butta had roughly the same amount of ki as Recoome or Jheese but was faster than them, and Goku was likewise faster than Captain Ginyu despite having a notably lower power level. Kibito's raw power level is supposedly on par with Gohan's, but Kibito couldn't lift the Z-Sword like Gohan could. Etcetera.

In a nutshell, scouter numbers are a measurement of how much ki you possess, not how you're using it.

[Skar]

Because ki is just ki. It's connected to and used to enhance attributes like physical strength, but it's not the actual level of strength itself. A scouter does not have the ability to measure the maximum weight you can bench press, it can only measure the amount of ki you're radiating.

I understand that but I meant that their physical strength would be included with the ki being measured. From my understanding ki is supposed to be their overall energy of their body. For example, I think a body builder would have higher ki than an average human because of his physical training. That's pretty much the same way weighted clothes and higher gravity training works. Goku trains in 100x gravity and gets some Zenkais for beating himself up and his ki increased.

Couldn't it be a possibility that Goku's PL of 10 is just wrong? I have a hard time accepting that one power level as fact when Daizenshuu's other power levels were taken from V-Jump. Both were published by Shueisha so I'd kinda have to accept both or ignore both. Are we supposed to ignore the power levels from V-Jump but accept the ones from the Daizenshuu when over half of them are the same and they were both written by the same people?

Plus, not everything is always enhanced proportionately. People can have specialties or deficiencies. Someone like Nappa or Recoome who's built like a tank can have more physical strength or durability than someone with the same power level but a scrawny body. Butta had roughly the same amount of ki as Recoome or Jheese but was faster than them, and Goku was likewise faster than Captain Ginyu despite having a notably lower power level. Kibito's raw power level is supposedly on par with Gohan's, but Kibito couldn't lift the Z-Sword like Gohan could. Etcetera.

I think for Burter it was more with his body being more agile than Jeice and Recoome so he was relatively faster but he presumably still had the same power at the same power level. I agree that physical attributes can affect how ki is used but there probably wasn't a huge difference in their speed since Ginyu still thought a PL of 60,000 was more than enough to take down all three of them. I'm not sure about Kibito. Did the manga specifically say they were equal?

[Kaboom]

Couldn't it be a possibility that Goku's PL of 10 is just wrong?

I suppose so, but I don't see any reason to assume it is. The explanation I've offered is perfectly satisfactory.

For a more extreme example, look at baby Broli. He was born with a power level of 10,000, presumably more than any other Saiyan at the time except for King Vegeta. But he was mortally wounded by a random Saiyan grunt with a knife. Because despite all that power he possessed, he was still just a helpless newborn with a fragile body, little to no cognitive ability, and definitely no combat skill.

So some people can do more with their power than other people, either naturally or through specialized efforts. So "kid Goku's power level was only 10 but his Saiyan body gave him a natural edge over other people on top of that" is perfectly viable.

I'm not sure about Kibito. Did the manga specifically say they were equal?

The guidebooks say that Kibito has a high enough "battle power," which remember only means raw amount of ki," to give Gohan a tough fight when not a Super Saiyan. Which is what Gohan implies when he figures he can't beat Kibito while concealing his real power — meaning that he'd probably have to go all-out (barring Super Saiyan as agreed upon) in order to beat Kibito.

[DBZAOTA482]

Kuririn took a bullet to the head too at the beginning of the series, and he was weaker than Goku even then.

Care to explain that?

[Kaboom]

You mean from Lunch at Kame House? That's just a visual gag. All three of them were bleeding. Even Roshi, who's still much stronger than either Goku or Kuririn at that point.

To a certain extent, you kind of have to separate that stuff from the more "serious feats" when talking about things like power levels.

[DBZAOTA482]

You mean from Lunch at Kame House? That's just a visual gag. All three of them were bleeding. Even Roshi, who's still much stronger than either Goku or Kuririn at that point.

To a certain extent, you kind of have to separate that stuff from the more "serious feats" when talking about things like power levels.

Don't care if it was played up for laughs it's still a feat since they took it about the same. Them being strong enough to survive it is part of the joke.

Besides, they've been shown to be pretty close in terms of strength with Goku having the edge.

[miguelnuva1]

Couldn't it be a possibility that Goku's PL of 10 is just wrong?

I suppose so, but I don't see any reason to assume it is. The explanation I've offered is perfectly satisfactory.

For a more extreme example, look at baby Broli. He was born with a power level of 10,000, presumably more than any other Saiyan at the time except for King Vegeta. But he was mortally wounded by a random Saiyan grunt with a knife. Because despite all that power he possessed, he was still just a helpless newborn with a fragile body, little to no cognitive ability, and definitely no combat skill.

So some people can do more with their power than other people, either naturally or through specialized efforts. So "kid Goku's power level was only 10 but his Saiyan body gave him a natural edge over other people on top of that" is perfectly viable.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who has this opinion. It has been a theory of mine for a while now that Goku at a PL of 10 would be superior to a human with a PL of 10.

[Skar]

For a more extreme example, look at baby Broli. He was born with a power level of 10,000, presumably more than any other Saiyan at the time except for King Vegeta. But he was mortally wounded by a random Saiyan grunt with a knife. Because despite all that power he possessed, he was still just a helpless newborn with a fragile body, little to no cognitive ability, and definitely no combat skill.

Wasn't that King Vegeta who stabbed Baby Broly? It looked like it was him from the shadow in the background. Either way Broly survived and had enough energy to escape the planet so I don't think it was a major wound. That example doesn't really compare to kid Goku. Broly was a new born who had no formal ki training so he didn't know how to use or focus his energy. Kid Goku was 12 years old and had some training from Grandpa Gohan. I agree that Saiyans are more durable and physically stronger than other races but if we assume that none of their actual strength is factored into their ki then there wouldn't be a need for the average Saiyan on Planet Vegeta to be a few hundred PL. Kid Goku had a PL of 10 with training so that would mean all the low-class Saiyan kids on Planet Vegeta that never trained before had a PL of less than 10. Maybe they were that weak and the 10g brought their power levels up to a few hundred? Then again if just adapting to 10g increased their ki then why didn't Goku's ki go up when he got used to carrying those huge fish, logs, or whatever else he did while training with Grandpa Gohan?

The guidebooks say that Kibito has a high enough "battle power," which remember only means raw amount of ki," to give Gohan a tough fight when not a Super Saiyan. Which is what Gohan implies when he figures he can't beat Kibito while concealing his real power — meaning that he'd probably have to go all-out (barring Super Saiyan as agreed upon) in order to beat Kibito.

Well he doesn't necessarily have to equal to give him a good fight. Kibito could be weaker than base Gohan overall and physically weaker than him too. I'm not sure if Gohan could even sense Kibito's energy in the manga so he might not even know how much weaker. I rather ignore the guidebooks because I can't really be selective when using them as in "Okay I'll accept this from the guidebook but ignore everything else that doesn't make sense or borrowed from an unreliable source like V-Jump". If we're supposed to take the Daizenshuu as canon then I see no reason why we wouldn't accept V-Jump since they're both written by the same people.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

The guidebooks say that Kibito has a high enough "battle power," which remember only means raw amount of ki," to give Gohan a tough fight when not a Super Saiyan. Which is what Gohan implies when he figures he can't beat Kibito while concealing his real power — meaning that he'd probably have to go all-out (barring Super Saiyan as agreed upon) in order to beat Kibito.

See that's one thing I never got. I thought the Z-senshi use their ki to amplify their muscles. Like Goku with a battle power of 8,000 isn't that much more built than a fit man, but can lift thousands of times heavier things. More ki should make your muscles be able to do more.

[Hugo Boss]

I suppose you think ki is like chakra as described by Gai in Naruto's today episode. But is there any official word if ki englobes physical strenght?

[Captain Space]

Multipliers

Super Saiyan = 50x
Super Saiyan 2 = 200x
Super Saiyan 3 = 1,000x

Oh, these ones seem more believable.

But they are incorrect. The correct ones are these:

Multipliers

SSJ = 50x
SSJ2 = 100x
SSJ3 = 400x

And as for Kaio-ken, Kaio-ken & Kaio-ken x2 are the same thing.

Those are not the "correct" multipliers. There is no "correct" multiplier. Those are just the ones published in V-Jump. They're not official.

And Kaio-ken is different from Kaioken x2, thinking it's the same is a common mistake which I believe can be traced back to a dub error. "Kaioken" without a number just means "Kaioken to increase your power, to some number that's less than x2".

[Kaboom]

They're not from V-Jump. They're from the "Super Exciting Guide" pair of books published in 2009.

If someone's going to ignore official power level-related material, I feel like they should at least know enough about it to correctly source it...

[Captain Space]

They're not from V-Jump. They're from the "Super Exciting Guide" pair of books published in 2009.

If someone's going to ignore official power level-related material, I feel like they should at least know enough about it to correctly source it...

Really? I thought that was just the 50x thing.

[Skar]

They're not from V-Jump. They're from the "Super Exciting Guide" pair of books published in 2009.

If someone's going to ignore official power level-related material, I feel like they should at least know enough about it to correctly source it...

To be fair what difference does that make? The SEG, Daizenshuu, and V-Jump were all published by Shueisha so I can't understand how one is more reliable than the other. If Toriyama had these multipliers in mind why wouldn't he share them in an interview or mention them in the manga? He had a multiplier for Oozaru so it wouldn't be hard for a character to say something like "Incredible! Gohan is now twice as powerful as before!". Frieza could tell when he was using 50% of his power, FPSSJ Goku when he was using 50%, and Future #17 when he said he was using less than half against Gohan. If characters could estimate half their power it wouldn't be difficult to do the opposite and tell when someone's power doubled.

I'm just surprised that fans take these numbers as 100% fact without questioning why it took 14 years to disclose this information. There are many interviews in the SEG not a single one has Toriyama mentioning these numbers so that leads me to believe these didn't come from Toriyama. The numbers for SSJ God, Beerus, and Whis were mentioned by Toriyama in an interview so that's clear they came directly from him.

[Captain Space]

Well, Skar, Toriyama mentioned the 50x thing once...and he said it didn't sound right to him, and that it was someone else's idea.

So yeah.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Those are not the "correct" multipliers. There is no "correct" multiplier. Those are just the ones published in V-Jump. They're not official.

They come from the Super Exciting Guides, and were specifically approved by Toriyama.

And Kaio-ken is different from Kaioken x2, thinking it's the same is a common mistake which I believe can be traced back to a dub error. "Kaioken" without a number just means "Kaioken to increase your power, to some number that's less than x2".

The narrator in the manga says that the Kaio-ken doubles the power of the user.

I'm just surprised that fans take these numbers as 100% fact without questioning why it took 14 years to disclose this information. There are many interviews in the SEG not a single one has Toriyama mentioning these numbers so that leads me to believe these didn't come from Toriyama. The numbers for SSJ God, Beerus, and Whis were mentioned by Toriyama in an interview so that's clear they came directly from him.

Unless they contradict the manga, I see no reason to ignore any official info from manga-guidebooks, and as far as I know, the SS multipliers don't contradict anything.

[Captain Space]

Those are not the "correct" multipliers. There is no "correct" multiplier. Those are just the ones published in V-Jump. They're not official.

They come from the Super Exciting Guides, and were specifically approved by Toriyama.

And Kaio-ken is different from Kaioken x2, thinking it's the same is a common mistake which I believe can be traced back to a dub error. "Kaioken" without a number just means "Kaioken to increase your power, to some number that's less than x2".

The narrator in the manga says that the Kaio-ken doubles the power of the user.

I'm just surprised that fans take these numbers as 100% fact without questioning why it took 14 years to disclose this information. There are many interviews in the SEG not a single one has Toriyama mentioning these numbers so that leads me to believe these didn't come from Toriyama. The numbers for SSJ God, Beerus, and Whis were mentioned by Toriyama in an interview so that's clear they came directly from him.

Unless they contradict the manga, I see no reason to ignore any official info from manga-guidebooks, and as far as I know, the SS multipliers don't contradict anything.

-The guides were in a very general way overseen by Toriyama. The specific information doesn't come from him, and when asked about the 50x thing in an interview, he said it didn't sound right to him.

-The narrator in the manga says no such thing. The narration in fact says nothing about the Kaioken at all.

-I refer you to my first point; also, say, 50x certainly doesn't contradict the manga. But neither does 100x or 45x. Neither does saying it's an addition and not a multiplier at all. The multipliers in that guidebook are reasonable guesses, certainly, but nothing more than that.

[Skar]

Well, Skar, Toriyama mentioned the 50x thing once...and he said it didn't sound right to him, and that it was someone else's idea.

So yeah.

Yeah it's funny that the only time he mentioned one of the multipliers was to say that he kinda didn't agree with it.
"At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that's a little extravagant. As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then."
It's possible he wasn't sure what they meant by 50x and interpreted it as being 50x some level of Kaioken. Then again if Toriyama supposedly supervised every single page of the guidebooks then wouldn't he know what they meant before it was published? He decided that Oozaru was 10x base and I never seen him question that in an interview so why would he question the SSJ multiplier if he was supposedly the one who came up with it? To be honest I do think 50x base is a fair estimate for SSJ. I just don't think Toriyama had any set number in mind and all he intended was for it to a great power-up. I think that's why he never gave 4th form Frieza a power level even though he did for 1st and 2nd form Frieza. Frieza was this unimaginably powerful enemy and the only way to challenge him was with an unimaginably powerful transformation like SSJ.

Unless they contradict the manga, I see no reason to ignore any official info from manga-guidebooks, and as far as I know, the SS multipliers don't contradict anything.

So I should only accept the guidebooks when they don't contradict the manga? Not really the best source when you're expected to only take some of it as fact. Should I also accept V-Jump power levels since they're written by the same people? The SEG borrows most of their power levels from the Daizenshuu which borrowed most of their power levels straight from V-Jump.

[RandomGuy96]

Those are not the "correct" multipliers. There is no "correct" multiplier. Those are just the ones published in V-Jump. They're not official.

Please learn the meaning of the word "official" and then come back.

-The narrator in the manga says no such thing. The narration in fact says nothing about the Kaioken at all.

Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P1.1
Narrator: “Vegeta's strength has greatly surpassed what Goku had figured on...! That power was such that not even the Kaio-Ken, which doubled Goku's battle power, could give Goku the upper hand... What will you do?! Goku!!"

[DBZGTKOSDH]

-The guides were in a very general way overseen by Toriyama. The specific information doesn't come from him, and when asked about the 50x thing in an interview, he said it didn't sound right to him.

I'm aware that they don't come from Toriyama, but I don't see any reason to ignore them if the author approves them & they don't contradict the manga.

-The narrator in the manga says no such thing. The narration in fact says nothing about the Kaioken at all.

He does, actually.

Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P1.1
Narrator: “Vegeta's strength has greatly surpassed what Goku had figured on...! That power was such that not even the Kaio-Ken, which doubled Goku's battle power, could give Goku the upper hand... What will you do?! Goku!!"

Goku calls it Kaio-ken x2 once, only because he was about to use Kaio-ken x3.

Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P13.5-6, P14.2
Goku: “Shit…!! His power and speed… [ ] I can’t keep up, even with the Kaio-Ken x2. [ ] I don’t care if my body breaks or I die! I’ve gotta up the Kaio-Ken to x3!!”

It's like if he had said while fighting someone as a Super Saiyan "I can't beat him with Super Saiyan 1! I've got to use Super Saiyan 2!".